Proposal to change land sale prices

[Mizou Vavoom]

Before I suggest an answer, let me propose some text which should be unavoidable. In the For Sale sign, in the About Land description.

"Purchase of land pays your first month's tier. After you purchase, Estate Managers will set the Tier Box for your payment of subsequent months' tier."

I suggest that when you touch a For Sale sign, it should speak that text. And if possible, we should put that text in About Land. It should be ubiquitous.

from Sudane.

Should the note-card with that one sentence be translated in as many languages as possible?
We had Turkish and Korean residents this week who don't speak a word of English, somehow we need to make ourselves very clear to everybody.

[Widget Whiteberry]

Should the note-card with that one sentence be translated in as many languages as possible?
We had Turkish and Korean residents this week who don't speak a word of English, somehow we need to make ourselves very clear to everybody.

Rather than 'as many as possible' I suggest translation into the languages we have for the covenants.... which suggests to the newcomer that there are folks about who share a language with them.

[Sudane Erato]

I've set up a test using my parcel P270, just outside the south gate of the town in NFS. Please go have a look, touch it for the message, and let me know what you think.

Ordinarily, in this state, the Tier Box would be accompanied by the For Sale sign, so you have to imagine that, cause the parcel isn;'t for sale.

Now another consideration rears its head, requiring an additional decision if we wish to take this course. In New England, where I have the same policy (purchase price pays the first month's tier) but use different tier box equipment, I have the policy that land sales are forbidden. Basically, since you got the parcel for nothing, its unfair to sell it for something to an unsuspecting newcomer who doesn't know that if they buy land from the "government", they get it for free. I would strongly urge that we adopt this policy if we are going to adopt this system where purchase pays the first month. Without that policy, we're going to have very angry newcomers who buy parcels from current owners.

Prohibiting parcel sales is a region setting.

If do do adopt this policy of new land sales by residents, then the additional setting in the Hippo system should be "Lock box on termination of rental". This way the box automatically goes back to the locked state with no owner.

Sudane..........................

[Rosie Gray]

The Tier Box sign looks pretty obvious, Sudane. I think that makes sense. What I'm wondering about with the not being able to re-sell a parcel is, how that would affect people who did actually pay for their parcels (having been there for some time), and also would the EM's still be able to set them for sale?

[Sudane Erato]

In reverse order....

Yes, EM's can still set parcels for sale. That's how we do it in SLNE.

Re people who have bought.... that's more complex. In theory, yes, we would be denying them the ability to return their investment.

But let's be brutally honest. "In theory". the price of a parcel is the ratio of the size of that parcel to the size of the sim... times US$1000... what it costs to buy a sim from LL. We used to take that approach... WAY BACK at the beginning. The disastrous LL land market policies have completely destroyed the concept of an underlying value of land, evidenced by the almost universal rejection of paying money to buy land, AND THEN paying a monthly tier. In the SL "parcel market", land has no value... aside from perhaps prestige locations... areas around Nautilus for example, mainland areas where tier is paid directly to LL. But in private estates... no... land has no value. Estate owners are concerned to collect tier and thus recoup whatever investment they made in buying the sim. The monthly tier costs are the overwhelming fact in land economics, NOT the acquisition costs.

What this means is that over time, an individual's investment in land parcels... the money they have spent buying the parcels... has dropped in value. Look at the CDS. We've been charging L$1 to buy a parcel for months now. We've already adopted this policy that we're proposing to modify... we're giving land away for free. Why should any newcomer buy from a private resident rather than the "government"? There IS no market for land sale by individuals. Owners need to accept that, and quite honestly, I think most people know that and accept that. If they actually spent a lot of money in the dim past for a parcel... shrug.... that value has disappeared.

So I think we have to bite the bullet and say that things have changed. Parcels are no longer worth anything... anywhere in SL. The only "value" is in the USE of the parcel, and for that you pay a monthly tier. When you're done USING the parcel, you give it up and move on.

We successfully achieved the transition in SLNE (where the same issue came up), and I'm sure we can do it here.

Sudane........................

[Lilith Ivory]

I like the tier box sign too. Still I would be happy if the sign would not look exactly the same in "for sale" locked" and "occupied" state as suggested before. It makes the work of hippo managers a lot more easy if we can see at first sight if a parcel is available or not without having to touch any box to see it´s state.

The next question is more complex I think.
For me Sudanes suggestion makes sense and I would be for it. Preferably after gathering as much citizens input as possible.
Not only is the last thing we need angry newcomers but also we had to monitor our land scanners more closely to be sure what is a private sale and what is not.

Thinking aloud now I wonder if it would be a good idea offer assistance by EMs in case a citizen wants to sell a parcel to a specific buyer.
This way we could inform newcomers about our land sales policy and make sure they understand and agree. Also this would make life more comfortable for citizens who want to swap parcels or transfer a parcel to a friend/partner.
Of course in this case we will have to treat all citizens alike, no matter how close to the election census we are and how much a citizen might be under suspect of trying to manipulate elections by bringing voters in …..

*stops thinking at this point and waits for input

[Sudane Erato]

I like the tier box sign too. Still I would be happy if the sign would not look exactly the same in "for sale" locked" and "occupied" state as suggested before. It makes the work of hippo managers a lot more easy if we can see at first sight if a parcel is available or not without having to touch any box to see it´s state.

If we adopt the "no sale" policy, with "Lock at termination of rental", the boxes would never show "For Sale" again. There would only be the two states... "Tier Box" (meaning the box is locked), and the small size "T" (meaning that its occupied).

Not only is the last thing we need angry newcomers but also we had to monitor our land scanners more closely to be sure what is a private sale and what is not.

Again, if no private sales are allowed... and I like Lil's suggestion that EM's could help someone transfer a parcel from one person to another... then any land scanner message we receive would mean a transfer either to or from Rudeen.

Sudane..........................

[Widget Whiteberry]

Again, if no private sales are allowed... and I like Lil's suggestion that EM's could help someone transfer a parcel from one person to another... then any land scanner message we receive would mean a transfer either to or from Rudeen.

And do away with the flood of 'false positives' -- parcel transfers without tier payments.

[Bagheera]

It seems that this makes acquiring parcels needlessly cumbersome. The L$1 was a promotional rate petitioned by Pat during his Chancellorship. I don't think it was ever meant to become a permanent state.

If the tier box textures are confusing, Hippo does allow one to replace the default texture with any texture at all.

That seems the simplest course, to change the For Sale Texture to something more explanatory, such as "Pay Tier Here after Purchasing Land".

Anshe Chung Estates still continues to use a model similar to CDS for land sales.

The easiest to understand process appears to be having the land price set to cover the first month's tier. This also means the first month is non-refundable by default, which will eliminate random opportunists.

[Han Held]

My only comment is to more or less agree with Bagheera; when I bought my LA parcel I was confused and kept IM'ing Rudeen

Also, glad to see you again, Bags

[Sudane Erato]

The easiest to understand process appears to be having the land price set to cover the first month's tier. This also means the first month is non-refundable by default, which will eliminate random opportunists.

*sigh*... yes... exactly. And if the land sale price equals the first month tier... AND.... if the Hippo box is not locked, so that it is payable at the random discretion of the new owner of the parcel, then the situation is utterly confusing. By buying the parcel, the new owner has already paid the tier! If the tier box is in the "For Sale" state, why should the new owner pay it? That would be double-paying the first month's tier. "When do I start paying the tier box?" is the essence of the problem... should the new owner be conscientious enough to care. And unless the box is locked, the box still says "For Sale".

Thus... we lock the tier box. And, thus, the EMs monitor new land sales (as they do now)... and when a new owner arrives, they observe the date on which they arrive, add 30 days to that date, and set the Hippo box to expire on the calculated date, with the new owner's name as the tenant on the tier box. The tier box never goes into the "For Sale", or "Available" state.

Sudane..................

[Bagheera]

By buying the parcel, the new owner has already paid the tier! If the tier box is in the "For Sale" state, why should the new owner pay it? That would be double-paying the first month's tier.

There is no duplication of payment. It would be paying the first month's tier at purchase and the 2nd month's tier when they paid the tier box. Since tier boxes refund the money by request, if the person did not want to pay the 2nd month's tier, they can just take it back, IF necessary.

For what it is worth, Anshe Chung continues to be successful in selling their properties with the same method CDS has been using for years. The difference is in how we communicate our instructions. Here is the graphic of instructions a potential buyer sees when they land on Anshe Chung land for sale.

AnsheChungLandPurchaseInstructions.png (163.43 KiB) Viewed 543 times

My suggestion is to make a graphic to replace the confusing "For Sale" sign with something like this. The Hippo would automatically display the "more helpful" sign whenever the property is for sale, then revert to the cube when the property is off the market.

The advantage to keeping the underlying process the same is that there is not an extra layer of a prospective buyer having to find an estate manager to complete the transaction.

As for the owner of parcel being able to sell it on the open market, when CDS is thriving and parcels are scarce, there is a little frissone of excitement when someone buys a parcel, certainly more satisfying than abandoning one.

[Rosie Gray]

I see your point about the For Sale sign, Bags, but then we return to the initial question of changing the land sale price itself back to something reasonable instead of the $1L which is causing us problems and has not worked the way it was anticipated.

The idea is to change the parcel price itself to equal 1 month's tier so that it ensures that the person purchasing understands that there is a tier to be paid, and that they aren't just purchasing and not paying tier because they are either not understanding this or are being deliberately malicious.

[Bagheera]

I see your point about the For Sale sign, Bags, but then we return to the initial question of changing the land sale price itself back to something reasonable instead of the $1L which is causing us problems and has not worked the way it was anticipated.

The idea is to change the parcel price itself to equal 1 month's tier so that it ensures that the person purchasing understands that there is a tier to be paid, and that they aren't just purchasing and not paying tier because they are either not understanding this or are being deliberately malicious.

I agree 100%, Rosie.

We could either have the government's purchase price cover the first month's tier, or have the purchase be some other amount that reflects that the land itself has value. Either approach is valid.

In my opinion, at this point, along the same lines of the intent of the $L1 purchase price, it might be in the best interests to have the purchase price of land purchased from the government be the cost to cover the first month's tier. The private citizen owner can resell the land at whatever rate they choose, and the private owner sale does not cover tier. This is also similar to what Anshe Chung does. I am referring to their methods because they are very similar to our own and they are very successful, so it has been tested to show it works. It also seems relatively simple to implement. It is not totally automated because the government has to adjust the tier boxes to credit the first month (I'm sure there is a way to do this)....but it also gives the benefit of that first month's grace for a new citizen to learn the ropes and have things explained to them.

[Sudane Erato]

In my opinion, at this point, along the same lines of the intent of the $L1 purchase price, it might be in the best interests to have the purchase price of land purchased from the government be the cost to cover the first month's tier.

Of course, this is exactly what we propose.

The private citizen owner can resell the land at whatever rate they choose, and the private owner sale does not cover tier.

And this idea is what I suggest makes problems, since the people who buy privately are very often not aware that land purchased from the "government" is free. When they buy from a private individual this way, they immediately owe tier, whereas when they buy from the "government", their purchase covers the first month of tier. I have found that this creates resentment and bad feelings, where the new owner feels that they were deceived.

This is also similar to what Anshe Chung does. I am referring to their methods because they are very similar to our own and they are very successful, so it has been tested to show it works.

The sign you provide is very helpful in understanding how this works in Anshe Chung land. In fact, it appears to be exactly the way we've done it in the past, where one first buys the land, for a purchase price, and then immediately pays the tier, in their case for the first week. That's a system which has increasingly proved problematical for us, as Lil and others will testify. For old-timers it makes perfect sense to buy the land and then start paying tier. But new-comers do not understand why they need to buy land and THEN pay tier. Our proposal eliminates the purchase price of land, which in fact we did a year ago, and converts the mechanical purchase of the land into the first month's tier. To me, it makes no sense to demand that, if the first month's tier is paid by the purchase of the land, why have the new owner immediately pay the tier box. They just paid the first month's tier!

Better to have the tier box locked. When the land is purchased, an EM has a full month lead-time to open the tier box for that new owner and credit the box with the remaining days of the first month. The only REAL issue is communicating the process to the new owner in a clear way.

It is not totally automated because the government has to adjust the tier boxes to credit the first month (I'm sure there is a way to do this)....but it also gives the benefit of that first month's grace for a new citizen to learn the ropes and have things explained to them.

Again, exactly what we are proposing.

Sudane.......................