I'd like to say it was fun...

[Victor1]

...but, no, it wasn't

Someone said in group chat that you'll start losing folks...

Count me as the first. I refuse to be part of ANY community which allows homophobic hate speech like Jos was sprouting in Cleo's little meeting which was OBVIOUSLY intended to do one thing, and one thing only, to drag the forum war in here into a public audience. The Kangaroo Court which had Cleo presiding over it was stacked heavily against the person that Jos was taking little jabs at.

This is your "democracy"? This is your "successful democratic rule"?

I'm not gay, im not transgendered, im an everyday bloke, but i was sickened that the "Government" allows this kind of crap to go on WITHIN their own regions, let alone in these forums. I'll be letting all my gay friends know that CDS is not a welcoming place for them as long as borderline neo-nazi homophobic scum like Jos is allowed to walk around freely.

Jos saying that gay people have caused a "moral decline". In history someone else said that, he was a short fellow, born in Austria, moved to Germany and ran that country through the 30's and into the 40's.

You can take your democracy, and keep it. I'll stick to private owned estates where people like Jos are banned instantly instead of being allowed to corrupt and fester everyone else in the community. You now also have a REPRESENTATIVE OF THE GOVERNMENT presiding over this crap and encouraging it?

[Garnet Psaltery]

I missed that part of the meeting but I fully agree with your stance, Vic. I left the meeting early as it was patently not what it called itself - an adult discussion on free speech. When the discussion leader has no understanding or respect for what people are saying, and will not acknowledge her own failings, then my free speech comment of "Up yours" to her was all I had left to say. You're better off out of it.

[Cadence Theas]

I would suggest that we recognize a need to make clear what tolerance means in CDS. I found a place in the SL Marketplace that has a Gay Pride flag, and I propose that those of us who truly believe in tolerance and respect for differences, be they religious, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, show on our buildings and businesses, what this means. The SL Marketplace URL is: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/AF ... ag/5205101. It is free (copy/mod, but not transferable), so I am not promoting this site for the person to make any profit.

[Bagheera]

I did not attend this meeting (was this the meeting that happened within the last 5 hours?), so I was not aware of what was said... if what you say is true, it is a violation of TOS and the CDS Constitution. I am sad and sorry if it happened but it makes it very hard to fix if, instead of reporting it in detail to the authorities so they can act on it, you decide CDS is supporting that kind of speech and leave. I am sorry to see you go.

[Trebor Warcliffe]

Unfortunately I was not only unable to attend this meeting I didn't know it was being held. Considering this was a public meeting and all were invited to attend I am asking that if anyone in attendance could email me the chat log for this meeting it would be greatly appreciated. This wasn't a private IM between 2 individuals, this was a public event attended by various citizens so obviously no LL TOS violations will be violated. Nonetheless if this is a concern for any of those in attendance you are more than happy to set up a simple dummy email account at gmail or yahoo or Hotmail and send it to me anonymously that way if it becomes an issue there is no one to place the blame on. My email address is [email protected]

Thank you,
Trebor Warcliffe
[email protected]

[Nolligan]

I did not attend this meeting (was this the meeting that happened within the last 5 hours?), so I was not aware of what was said... if what you say is true, it is a violation of TOS and the CDS Constitution. I am sad and sorry if it happened but it makes it very hard to fix if, instead of reporting it in detail to the authorities so they can act on it, you decide CDS is supporting that kind of speech and leave. I am sorry to see you go.

I fully support Bagheera in this and personally I prefer to live in a community where any suspected violations of the ToS and/or CDS constitution are properly investigated.
Democracy is about due process (Magna Carta Clause 39) and a presumption of innocence. (The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11).
The quick wielding of ban-hammers is the prerogative of autocratic land owners.

Additionally, there is an ironic twist here.
In another thread you wrote:

So basically you think you are right and everyone else is wrong, so your taking your ball back and not playing anymore?

So I would urge you to stay and contribute.

[cleopatraxigalia]

To clarify, yesterday I held one of my usual discussion groups at the Higher Ground Coffee House in Locus. The HGC group has been around almost three years I think. The topic of the discussion was Noses and Fists. Freedom of Speech, yours and mine.

The posters for the discussion points were up in the room. We were to go round one at a time and comment on the discussion points. The event was posted in LL events. Only one or two people arrived so I did something I don't usually do for the HGC event, I put it in the CDS chat inviting people.

The event was my event, it was held on my private land in CDS. It was not a CDS event on public land.

Because the topic was freedom of speech I did not moderate the discussion as much as maybe I should have as the group that showed up were : Guilleume , Jos, and then Vic and Garnet..Lilith and a few others came too, and a first time visitor to the CDS , who ate popcorn and watched the show. Future events will be with rules of decorum and violators will be banned.

Trebor, you are asking for Chat logs of the event. No one in the room gave anyone permission to share the local chat. Be aware, one of the main reasons I believe LL doesn't want people sharing chat is that it violates privacy and is subject to fraud. Chat can be changed. Your curiousity is noted. But quite inappropriate in my opinion.

Posters in the room :
Defend your right to Offend

"The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins" Oliver Wendell Holmes

Don't tolerate intolerance.

Political Correctness : wishing common sense to the cornfield

"All tyranny needs to take a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent " Jefferson

"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything" Einstein

What is religious intolerance?

These were to be what we discussed and I asked for them to be talked about in general terms and for everyone to share their thoughts in a round robin manner.

[Trebor Warcliffe]

...but, no, it wasn't

Someone said in group chat that you'll start losing folks...

Count me as the first. I refuse to be part of ANY community which allows homophobic hate speech like Jos was sprouting in Cleo's little meeting which was OBVIOUSLY intended to do one thing, and one thing only, to drag the forum war in here into a public audience. The Kangaroo Court which had Cleo presiding over it was stacked heavily against the person that Jos was taking little jabs at.

This is your "democracy"? This is your "successful democratic rule"?

I'm not gay, im not transgendered, im an everyday bloke, but i was sickened that the "Government" allows this kind of crap to go on WITHIN their own regions, let alone in these forums. I'll be letting all my gay friends know that CDS is not a welcoming place for them as long as borderline neo-nazi homophobic scum like Jos is allowed to walk around freely.

Jos saying that gay people have caused a "moral decline". In history someone else said that, he was a short fellow, born in Austria, moved to Germany and ran that country through the 30's and into the 40's.

You can take your democracy, and keep it. I'll stick to private owned estates where people like Jos are banned instantly instead of being allowed to corrupt and fester everyone else in the community. You now also have a REPRESENTATIVE OF THE GOVERNMENT presiding over this crap and encouraging it?

Cleo,
I can certainly respect your concern about sharing chat logs when there wasn't consent given before hand. My concern is that talk was made in our community at an event that any and all citizens were invited to and during this event things were said that so upset an esteemed member of Second Life that he left us.

So knowing that you keep chat logs just like I do I think I have a simple solution. Lets ask each of the individuals that were in attendance (1) do we have their permission to post the chat here in the forums for all to read, and (2) if they have a chat log of the meeting could they please post it in the forum so we know that no one has altered the chat log? I think this is a fair request and if nobody has anything to hide than it shouldn't be an issue. This will alleviate the "well I heard so and so said this" and "so and so acted like this." Let's bring it all out in the open just like we do in the forums and let the citizens form an opinion based on the actual knowledge.

Thank you,
Trebor Warcliffe

[Patroklus Murakami]

I hope you change your mind Victor, Jos is not representative of the CDS and neither is Cleo. Most people are tolerant, pretty liberal and interested and interesting. Jos has shown his true colours with his homophobic ranting. That's sad but he is entitled to his viewpoint however vile and offensive many of us might find it. While I think bigots needs to be challenged on their views robustly, I'm not in favour banning, silencing or running them out of town. Free speech means tolerating speech you find highly offensive and the right to be offensive (in my view).

If someone broke the LL ToS at this event, then people can report them to the Lindens' if they feel so moved.

I would like to see the transcript published so we can all judge for ourselves. It was a public meeting - all welcome! - so I don't see why the chat can't be published. If anyone wants to send me a copy I'll happily put it on my blog here. I think if there were statements made by an elected Government official that condone homophobia then there's clearly a public interest in us all seeing what was/was not said.

[josjoha]

Those of us who where there that I did no such ranting. It is sad that some people will go to the level of lying, so be it. I'm fine with my chat being published; as a matter of fact I think I could do that while erasing that of others ? However I feel - besides that it's a waste of my time - that this is what 'they' want. Now they can make the issue about me.

Anyway, here is the log. I notice that being accused of being a neo-nazi and whatnot is bordering on the extreme. Don't feel shy about apologizing for the extreme accusations against me; and let us not forget who is the offender here, who rezzed posters all over CDS. That's what this is really about, and the attempt apparently to divert this issue to something else. I know it may be tiring that I say that, but what's really tiring is that it's so time consuming to get any kind of justice for such griefing activities. It is nothing out of the ordinary to give some sort of a punishment; and since we are a law-abiding (or should be) democracy, I think it is fair and good that we 'play' (act out) that part properly also. It's not me who is trying to obstruct this. I haven't edited the log of course, nor even looked at it. The shouting of "bitch!" and "whore!" by the offender Gaume I have also had to delete because of the TOS.

[2013/11/25 13:08] josjoha: hello gaius
[2013/11/25 13:08] josjoha: how are you doing
[2013/11/25 13:09] josjoha: hi
[2013/11/25 13:14] josjoha: i think that free speech needs to be taken quite wide, because governments have the tendency to become tyrannical otherwise
[2013/11/25 13:14] josjoha: so that means that even slander, especially wrt political subjects, is protected
[2013/11/25 13:14] josjoha: i'm thinking that you should be able to say that, yes
[2013/11/25 13:16] josjoha: let's keep to the topic
[2013/11/25 13:16] josjoha: so i'd argue, that this argument could become illegal *as such* if either side can not make accusations that may not be truthful
[2013/11/25 13:17] josjoha: and "what is truthful" is always just about impossible to agree about - or it often is, but at least we can talk about it
[2013/11/25 13:18] josjoha: Cleo, yes - the chat is very fast sorry i can not read s ofast
[2013/11/25 13:19] josjoha: hi Vic
[2013/11/25 13:20] josjoha: Gaume, i do not attack *you* - although it's fine with me if you think / feel that - the issue is that you - in my opinion - went over the bounds of free speech by rezzing posters over other people their homes, as if it was their poster
[2013/11/25 13:21] josjoha: so i think we have an example of going too far there, which could be interesting to discuss or -- perhaps for the sake of argument -- we take an hypothetical to prevent tempers flaring unnecessarily
[2013/11/25 13:22] josjoha: i attacked the action of rezzing the posters as excessive liberty in free speech that deserves punishment
[2013/11/25 13:23] josjoha: hey Lillith
[2013/11/25 13:24] josjoha: Vic: i said 'affliction' but right after also 'choice' -- this is an interesting hook into the topic of free speech also; as a matter of fact i do belief that gayness and transgenderism is an affliction -- however out of generosity i also added "choice" for the over-sensibility of some people here. Question: can i express that opinion, or is there no such freedom ? feel free to abuse report me, btw
[2013/11/25 13:25] josjoha: Vic: i did not deride anyone, go ahead and quote it; all i did say is that gay people have caused some morals to go down, and this is just my honest opinion.
[2013/11/25 13:26] josjoha: Vic: perhaps it is better that we keep to the topic of this discussion, and only use these opinions and expressions to illustrate freedom of speech law and it's limits
[2013/11/25 13:27] josjoha: i agree, and proposed it already
[2013/11/25 13:27] josjoha: it's better to use examples that don't involve any of the ppl here
[2013/11/25 13:29] josjoha: but should it be prohibited ?
[2013/11/25 13:31] josjoha: you think s*xual orientation of people should be a prohibited subject Lillith ? or should any subjects be prohibited, or certain opinions about them ? for example certain opinions on the holocaust are punishable ni Germany ...
[2013/11/25 13:32] josjoha: it's none of my business what you think about freedom of speech law, okay, that's fair enough
[2013/11/25 13:33] josjoha: i think personally that gayishness and transgenderism but more gayishness, is used as a destraction and wedge issue, to shut people up and effectively deny them speech
[2013/11/25 13:33] josjoha: hi
[2013/11/25 13:36] josjoha: what about how far you can go with expressing your views using devices such as megaphones, or posters
[2013/11/25 13:36] josjoha: is it ok to megaphone the British parliament, some have done this
[2013/11/25 13:37] josjoha: ok, but you could edge that further ... is it ok to megaphone someone their house through their letterbox...
[2013/11/25 13:37] josjoha: Lillith, but also not a small one on a random wall ?
[2013/11/25 13:38] josjoha: i agree Vic ... that's a good point to remember, public vs private
[2013/11/25 13:39] josjoha: i even think though that a parliament has a right to debate & assemble
[2013/11/25 13:39] josjoha: so if they are disrupted by megaphones, i'd not think that is freedom of speech
[2013/11/25 13:39] josjoha: hi
[2013/11/25 13:41] josjoha: but what if the megaphones disrupt a parliamentary meeting ... the delegates there also have their freedom of speech right
[2013/11/25 13:43] josjoha: Lillith, you can mute a megaphone ? you'd need to make that person stop in his expression of speech
[2013/11/25 13:45] josjoha: Gaius, you put posters on other people their homes, that's an interesting example of freedom of speech; any opinions by anyone on that ?
[2013/11/25 13:47] josjoha: that's an interetsing example of freedom of speech
[2013/11/25 13:47] josjoha: Vic, it's pertinent to the development of law of CDS - keep up your rudeness and you're muted
[2013/11/25 13:48] josjoha: already am, i rarely if ever unmute, bye.
[2013/11/25 13:48] josjoha: i only ever mute ppl for being rude, their opinions don't matter
[2013/11/25 13:50] josjoha: Gaius safe the log, you'll see attempts to bring freedom of speech back as the topic.. but it does waiver a lot ...
[2013/11/25 13:53] josjoha: lol
[2013/11/25 13:54] josjoha: •´¨*•.¸.♥ Bye Bye ♥.¸.•*¨`•
[2013/11/25 13:54] josjoha: Gaius, plz stick to the topic ?
[2013/11/25 13:55] josjoha: the topic is being lost, perhaps by both sides..
[2013/11/25 13:57] josjoha: yes welcome !
[2013/11/25 13:57] josjoha: oh you are new
[2013/11/25 13:57] josjoha: great
[2013/11/25 13:58] josjoha: hey Jerry, you've been silent a bit, so you had a clean ear to the ground, what's your take on the subject or the debate so far
[2013/11/25 13:58] josjoha: (lol)
[2013/11/25 13:59] josjoha: i'm fine with the other gender, and if i have an opinion about trees, sneezing or gayishness, i don't see why i couldn't - i don't like the entire subject though, used as a wedge & destraction imho
[2013/11/25 14:00] josjoha: i think i made a mistake to say anyhting about it, i should have 100% ignored it as a rethorical device of the opposing side in that debate on the forum
[2013/11/25 14:00] josjoha: i guess i didn't realize how extreme they are with it
[2013/11/25 14:01] josjoha: yes, just flat out ignore it
[2013/11/25 14:01] josjoha: pretend to not even hear it
[2013/11/25 14:01] josjoha: a good lesson though, so that's valueable
[2013/11/25 14:01] josjoha: i think that oversteps the bounds of free speech
[2013/11/25 14:02] josjoha: as a restruction
[2013/11/25 14:02] josjoha: *striction
[2013/11/25 14:02] josjoha: (or both
[2013/11/25 14:03] josjoha: a protection of people against certain speech, can also become discrimination
[2013/11/25 14:03] josjoha: i've seen foottage of a gay march where counter-protesters where attacked by gay ppl
[2013/11/25 14:04] josjoha: and i'm outnumbered in the forum thread as well, and they jumped on this issue which i barely touched and was not harping on by any means -- majority attacks minority ?
[2013/11/25 14:05] josjoha: it's true though that gay ppl have often been attacked, and so there is some reason to protect them, also being a minority
[2013/11/25 14:06] josjoha: it's interesting though that part of the subject is rezzing posters on other people their houses ... how can this suddenly become a topic about gay people ?
[2013/11/25 14:07] josjoha: maybe they had no argument to defend this rezzing on homes, so the discussion had to be diverted into something else
[2013/11/25 14:08] josjoha: and that has happened now here as well ...
[2013/11/25 14:09] josjoha: hihi
[2013/11/25 14:11] josjoha: bbye
[2013/11/25 14:13] josjoha: seems so
[2013/11/25 14:13] josjoha: of course not, so there are limits on freedom of speech
[2013/11/25 14:14] josjoha: i'd say this limit is mostly on the means by which the message is delivered, and not on the message itself
[2013/11/25 14:14] josjoha: right ...
[2013/11/25 14:16] josjoha: you could also ask what is the purpose of expression of opinion in a good way: it's to organize politically
[2013/11/25 14:17] josjoha: then you could say: hwat is needed at minimum to organize politically, and say all that should at least be freedom
[2013/11/25 14:18] josjoha: so, i'd say that giving out phamphlets is a bare minimum, talking at normal tone and stop when ppl don't want to hear it, has to be protected - regardless of the opinion, however offensive it is; except if it contains threats like death-threats
[2013/11/25 14:18] josjoha: i'm not sure posters are absolutely needed to organize politically, although it can help a lot
[2013/11/25 14:19] josjoha: yelling also leads to slogans and superficiality, who can have a debate by yelling
[2013/11/25 14:21] josjoha: i wonder though if you sometimes "need to yell" though
[2013/11/25 14:21] josjoha: within reason
[2013/11/25 14:21] josjoha: for example ... what if 10% are immigrants, and they are badly abused
[2013/11/25 14:21] josjoha: they talk and talk, but no result
[2013/11/25 14:21] josjoha: maybe the yelling has to be as strong as the abuse yelled about ...
[2013/11/25 14:22] josjoha: (lol)
[2013/11/25 14:25] josjoha: he is a hero in my opinion at least, but there was another whistle blower who did it all a long time ago,
[2013/11/25 14:25] josjoha: but it seems the media doesn't want to talk about him; perhaps to cover for the fact that they ignored that whistle blower
[2013/11/25 14:25] josjoha: sec i get his site
[2013/11/25 14:26] josjoha: http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/
[2013/11/25 14:26] josjoha: yes, hero
[2013/11/25 14:27] josjoha: i sometimes wonder if he is a CIA double-agent playing it, but i doubt it
[2013/11/25 14:27] josjoha: don't miss out on this CNN whistleblower: http://amberlyonlive.com/
[2013/11/25 14:29] josjoha: our pleasure i'm sure !
[2013/11/25 14:29] josjoha: •´¨*•.¸.♥ Bye Bye ♥.¸.•*¨`•
[2013/11/25 14:29] josjoha: good Dee, have a good evening
[2013/11/25 14:29] josjoha: •´¨*•.¸.♥ Bye Bye ♥.¸.•*¨`•
[2013/11/25 14:29] josjoha: yeah, must go too; all

feel free to apologize for rudeness toward me, thanks in advance,
josjoha

[Patroklus Murakami]

Those of us who where there that I did no such ranting. It is sad that some people will go to the level of lying, so be it. I'm fine with my chat being published; as a matter of fact I think I could do that while erasing that of others ? However I feel - besides that it's a waste of my time - that this is what 'they' want. Now they can make the issue about me.

Anyway, here is the log. I notice that being accused of being a neo-nazi and whatnot is bordering on the extreme. Don't feel shy about apologizing for the extreme accusations against me; and let us not forget who is the offender here, who rezzed posters all over CDS. That's what this is really about, and the attempt apparently to divert this issue to something else. I know it may be tiring that I say that, but what's really tiring is that it's so time consuming to get any kind of justice for such griefing activities. It is nothing out of the ordinary to give some sort of a punishment; and since we are a law-abiding (or should be) democracy, I think it is fair and good that we 'play' (act out) that part properly also. It's not me who is trying to obstruct this. I haven't edited the log of course, nor even looked at it. The shouting of "bitch!" and "whore!" by the offender Gaume I have also had to delete because of the TOS.

[2013/11/25 13:08] josjoha: hello gaius
[2013/11/25 13:08] josjoha: how are you doing
[2013/11/25 13:09] josjoha: hi
[2013/11/25 13:14] josjoha: i think that free speech needs to be taken quite wide, because governments have the tendency to become tyrannical otherwise
[2013/11/25 13:14] josjoha: so that means that even slander, especially wrt political subjects, is protected
[2013/11/25 13:14] josjoha: i'm thinking that you should be able to say that, yes
[2013/11/25 13:16] josjoha: let's keep to the topic
[2013/11/25 13:16] josjoha: so i'd argue, that this argument could become illegal *as such* if either side can not make accusations that may not be truthful
[2013/11/25 13:17] josjoha: and "what is truthful" is always just about impossible to agree about - or it often is, but at least we can talk about it
[2013/11/25 13:18] josjoha: Cleo, yes - the chat is very fast sorry i can not read s ofast
[2013/11/25 13:19] josjoha: hi Vic
[2013/11/25 13:20] josjoha: Gaume, i do not attack *you* - although it's fine with me if you think / feel that - the issue is that you - in my opinion - went over the bounds of free speech by rezzing posters over other people their homes, as if it was their poster
[2013/11/25 13:21] josjoha: so i think we have an example of going too far there, which could be interesting to discuss or -- perhaps for the sake of argument -- we take an hypothetical to prevent tempers flaring unnecessarily
[2013/11/25 13:22] josjoha: i attacked the action of rezzing the posters as excessive liberty in free speech that deserves punishment
[2013/11/25 13:23] josjoha: hey Lillith
[2013/11/25 13:24] josjoha: Vic: i said 'affliction' but right after also 'choice' -- this is an interesting hook into the topic of free speech also; as a matter of fact i do belief that gayness and transgenderism is an affliction -- however out of generosity i also added "choice" for the over-sensibility of some people here. Question: can i express that opinion, or is there no such freedom ? feel free to abuse report me, btw
[2013/11/25 13:25] josjoha: Vic: i did not deride anyone, go ahead and quote it; all i did say is that gay people have caused some morals to go down, and this is just my honest opinion.
[2013/11/25 13:26] josjoha: Vic: perhaps it is better that we keep to the topic of this discussion, and only use these opinions and expressions to illustrate freedom of speech law and it's limits
[2013/11/25 13:27] josjoha: i agree, and proposed it already
[2013/11/25 13:27] josjoha: it's better to use examples that don't involve any of the ppl here
[2013/11/25 13:29] josjoha: but should it be prohibited ?
[2013/11/25 13:31] josjoha: you think s*xual orientation of people should be a prohibited subject Lillith ? or should any subjects be prohibited, or certain opinions about them ? for example certain opinions on the holocaust are punishable ni Germany ...
[2013/11/25 13:32] josjoha: it's none of my business what you think about freedom of speech law, okay, that's fair enough
[2013/11/25 13:33] josjoha: i think personally that gayishness and transgenderism but more gayishness, is used as a destraction and wedge issue, to shut people up and effectively deny them speech
[2013/11/25 13:33] josjoha: hi
[2013/11/25 13:36] josjoha: what about how far you can go with expressing your views using devices such as megaphones, or posters
[2013/11/25 13:36] josjoha: is it ok to megaphone the British parliament, some have done this
[2013/11/25 13:37] josjoha: ok, but you could edge that further ... is it ok to megaphone someone their house through their letterbox...
[2013/11/25 13:37] josjoha: Lillith, but also not a small one on a random wall ?
[2013/11/25 13:38] josjoha: i agree Vic ... that's a good point to remember, public vs private
[2013/11/25 13:39] josjoha: i even think though that a parliament has a right to debate & assemble
[2013/11/25 13:39] josjoha: so if they are disrupted by megaphones, i'd not think that is freedom of speech
[2013/11/25 13:39] josjoha: hi
[2013/11/25 13:41] josjoha: but what if the megaphones disrupt a parliamentary meeting ... the delegates there also have their freedom of speech right
[2013/11/25 13:43] josjoha: Lillith, you can mute a megaphone ? you'd need to make that person stop in his expression of speech
[2013/11/25 13:45] josjoha: Gaius, you put posters on other people their homes, that's an interesting example of freedom of speech; any opinions by anyone on that ?
[2013/11/25 13:47] josjoha: that's an interetsing example of freedom of speech
[2013/11/25 13:47] josjoha: Vic, it's pertinent to the development of law of CDS - keep up your rudeness and you're muted
[2013/11/25 13:48] josjoha: already am, i rarely if ever unmute, bye.
[2013/11/25 13:48] josjoha: i only ever mute ppl for being rude, their opinions don't matter
[2013/11/25 13:50] josjoha: Gaius safe the log, you'll see attempts to bring freedom of speech back as the topic.. but it does waiver a lot ...
[2013/11/25 13:53] josjoha: lol
[2013/11/25 13:54] josjoha: •´¨*•.¸.♥ Bye Bye ♥.¸.•*¨`•
[2013/11/25 13:54] josjoha: Gaius, plz stick to the topic ?
[2013/11/25 13:55] josjoha: the topic is being lost, perhaps by both sides..
[2013/11/25 13:57] josjoha: yes welcome !
[2013/11/25 13:57] josjoha: oh you are new
[2013/11/25 13:57] josjoha: great
[2013/11/25 13:58] josjoha: hey Jerry, you've been silent a bit, so you had a clean ear to the ground, what's your take on the subject or the debate so far
[2013/11/25 13:58] josjoha: (lol)
[2013/11/25 13:59] josjoha: i'm fine with the other gender, and if i have an opinion about trees, sneezing or gayishness, i don't see why i couldn't - i don't like the entire subject though, used as a wedge & destraction imho
[2013/11/25 14:00] josjoha: i think i made a mistake to say anyhting about it, i should have 100% ignored it as a rethorical device of the opposing side in that debate on the forum
[2013/11/25 14:00] josjoha: i guess i didn't realize how extreme they are with it
[2013/11/25 14:01] josjoha: yes, just flat out ignore it
[2013/11/25 14:01] josjoha: pretend to not even hear it
[2013/11/25 14:01] josjoha: a good lesson though, so that's valueable
[2013/11/25 14:01] josjoha: i think that oversteps the bounds of free speech
[2013/11/25 14:02] josjoha: as a restruction
[2013/11/25 14:02] josjoha: *striction
[2013/11/25 14:02] josjoha: (or both
[2013/11/25 14:03] josjoha: a protection of people against certain speech, can also become discrimination
[2013/11/25 14:03] josjoha: i've seen foottage of a gay march where counter-protesters where attacked by gay ppl
[2013/11/25 14:04] josjoha: and i'm outnumbered in the forum thread as well, and they jumped on this issue which i barely touched and was not harping on by any means -- majority attacks minority ?
[2013/11/25 14:05] josjoha: it's true though that gay ppl have often been attacked, and so there is some reason to protect them, also being a minority
[2013/11/25 14:06] josjoha: it's interesting though that part of the subject is rezzing posters on other people their houses ... how can this suddenly become a topic about gay people ?
[2013/11/25 14:07] josjoha: maybe they had no argument to defend this rezzing on homes, so the discussion had to be diverted into something else
[2013/11/25 14:08] josjoha: and that has happened now here as well ...
[2013/11/25 14:09] josjoha: hihi
[2013/11/25 14:11] josjoha: bbye
[2013/11/25 14:13] josjoha: seems so
[2013/11/25 14:13] josjoha: of course not, so there are limits on freedom of speech
[2013/11/25 14:14] josjoha: i'd say this limit is mostly on the means by which the message is delivered, and not on the message itself
[2013/11/25 14:14] josjoha: right ...
[2013/11/25 14:16] josjoha: you could also ask what is the purpose of expression of opinion in a good way: it's to organize politically
[2013/11/25 14:17] josjoha: then you could say: hwat is needed at minimum to organize politically, and say all that should at least be freedom
[2013/11/25 14:18] josjoha: so, i'd say that giving out phamphlets is a bare minimum, talking at normal tone and stop when ppl don't want to hear it, has to be protected - regardless of the opinion, however offensive it is; except if it contains threats like death-threats
[2013/11/25 14:18] josjoha: i'm not sure posters are absolutely needed to organize politically, although it can help a lot
[2013/11/25 14:19] josjoha: yelling also leads to slogans and superficiality, who can have a debate by yelling
[2013/11/25 14:21] josjoha: i wonder though if you sometimes "need to yell" though
[2013/11/25 14:21] josjoha: within reason
[2013/11/25 14:21] josjoha: for example ... what if 10% are immigrants, and they are badly abused
[2013/11/25 14:21] josjoha: they talk and talk, but no result
[2013/11/25 14:21] josjoha: maybe the yelling has to be as strong as the abuse yelled about ...
[2013/11/25 14:22] josjoha: (lol)
[2013/11/25 14:25] josjoha: he is a hero in my opinion at least, but there was another whistle blower who did it all a long time ago,
[2013/11/25 14:25] josjoha: but it seems the media doesn't want to talk about him; perhaps to cover for the fact that they ignored that whistle blower
[2013/11/25 14:25] josjoha: sec i get his site
[2013/11/25 14:26] josjoha: http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/
[2013/11/25 14:26] josjoha: yes, hero
[2013/11/25 14:27] josjoha: i sometimes wonder if he is a CIA double-agent playing it, but i doubt it
[2013/11/25 14:27] josjoha: don't miss out on this CNN whistleblower: http://amberlyonlive.com/
[2013/11/25 14:29] josjoha: our pleasure i'm sure !
[2013/11/25 14:29] josjoha: •´¨*•.¸.♥ Bye Bye ♥.¸.•*¨`•
[2013/11/25 14:29] josjoha: good Dee, have a good evening
[2013/11/25 14:29] josjoha: •´¨*•.¸.♥ Bye Bye ♥.¸.•*¨`•
[2013/11/25 14:29] josjoha: yeah, must go too; all

feel free to apologize for rudeness toward me, thanks in advance,
josjoha

Deranged

[Bromo Ivory]

...

Like it or dislike it ... if we really are a pluralistic people, we stop being a bastion of freedom if we start kicking out people we disagree with. Even if they are homophobic.

So the question really is ... are we standing for freedom or not?

[Pip Torok]

...

Like it or dislike it ... if we really are a pluralistic people, we stop being a bastion of freedom if we start kicking out people we disagree with. Even if they are homophobic.

So the question really is ... are we standing for freedom or not?

"The truth is rarely pure and never simple", as Oscar Wilde once said ...

Bromo, my formative years were spent in such a bastion of freedom. There is one thing I can tell you from that period. At that time, the question we would have put was :

"So the question really is ... what inroads upon our freedom are temporarily necessary to ensure that the
bastion of freedom (i.e. us) survives?"

Now if you were to say "none", Bromo, then your bastion becomes as much a fiction as the Weimar Republic became.

Its idea of democracy was to be utterly fair, and utterly pure, and so to allow its enemies to do their deadly work upon it in 1933, and all in the name of their pure, theoretical, idealistic, non-pragmatic idea of democracy.

But that was then, and this is now. We are in a crisis, and need effective action now.

This is a democracy, so I'll suggest nothing further than that the Chancellor, the Dean, the EO and the LRA
get together, agree a plan, then implement it as a matter of urgency.

And what did the United Kingdom do from 1940 to 1942 to answer their (and your?) question, Bromo? The rest is history, so you'd find your answer in a history book!

'The world may be divided into people that read, people that write,
people that think, and fox hunters'

-- William Shenstone (1714 -- 1763)

Pip Turk

[Bagheera]

I have been up half the night researching and thinking on this. I will post something soon, but I want to be sure I am being fair and just.

[Victor1]

Enough with this "Free Speech" tripe....

From the Terms of Service of Linden Lab...

6.1 You will not post or transmit prohibited Content, including any Content that is illegal, harassing or violates any person's rights.

You agree that you will not:

(i) Post, display, or transmit Content that violates any law or the rights of any third party, including without limitation Intellectual Property Rights. We reserve the right to request at any time proof of permissions in a form acceptable to us. Failure to provide such proof may lead to, among other things, removal of such Content from the Service;

(ii) Impersonate any person or entity without their consent, or otherwise misrepresent your affiliation, or if you are an adult, impersonate a minor for the purpose of interacting with a minor using the Service;

(iii) Stalk, harass, or engage in any sexual, suggestive, lewd, lascivious, or otherwise inappropriate conduct with minors on the Service;

(iv) Post, display, or transmit Content that is harmful, threatening or harassing, defamatory, libelous, false, inaccurate, misleading, or invades another person's privacy;

(v) Post, display, or transmit Content that is obscene, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable; or

(vi) Post, display or transmit any Content or conduct or host any activity that is sexually explicit, or intensely violent.
Any violation by you of the terms of this Section may result in immediate termination of your Accounts without any refund or other compensation.

...bold is mine, Jos broke the ToS... end of...

The fact that the "Government" of CDS is too busy waffling on about free speech when Section 6.1 of the Terms of Service shuts down "Free Speech" as some folks in CDS see it is absolutley LAUGHABLE. It not only opens up CDS to be investigated by the Governance Team for not upholding the ToS, it also opens up the estate owner for a possible suspension if this sort of thing happens all the time, and by the looks of it, it does happen all the time.

Anyway, not my problem, my cousin is now staying on my plot in LA, and i've told her several things to make her stay in CDS more welcoming...

1: Dont get involved in the politics.

2: Don't go to any meetings.

3: Keep to yourself or risk being unwillingly sucked into a clique.