Homophobia in the CDS

[Patroklus Murakami]

This is a post I never Imagined I would have to write. I've lived in the CDS for about six or more years, pretty much from when I first installed 'Second Life'. One thing I've always loved about the community here is the diversity and the accepting attitude of most people who live here. I'm an out gay man and always have been and… it's never been much of an issue in the CDS. It's nice to be able to relate to people at 'Pat' first and for my sexuality to be less relevant (and usually irrelevant) to whatever we are talking about.

But now we have at least one intolerant homophobic bigot making ill-informed and offensive comments about LGBT people. I see this as an opportunity to educate the ignorant rather than drive out people who hold such stupid views. Free speech means people get to say dumb things and I get to get angry because this stuff is lethal.

[2013/11/25 13:24] josjoha: Vic: i said 'affliction' but right after also 'choice' -- this is an interesting hook into the topic of free speech also; as a matter of fact i do belief that gayness and transgenderism is an affliction -- however out of generosity i also added "choice" for the over-sensibility of some people here. Question: can i express that opinion, or is there no such freedom ? feel free to abuse report me, btw
[2013/11/25 13:25] josjoha: Vic: i did not deride anyone, go ahead and quote it; all i did say is that gay people have caused some morals to go down, and this is just my honest opinion.
...
[2013/11/25 13:33] josjoha: i think personally that gayishness and transgenderism but more gayishness, is used as a destraction and wedge issue, to shut people up and effectively deny them speech
...
[2013/11/25 13:59] josjoha: i'm fine with the other gender, and if i have an opinion about trees, sneezing or gayishness, i don't see why i couldn't - i don't like the entire subject though, used as a wedge & destraction imho
...
[2013/11/25 14:03] josjoha: a protection of people against certain speech, can also become discrimination
[2013/11/25 14:03] josjoha: i've seen foottage of a gay march where counter-protesters where attacked by gay ppl
[2013/11/25 14:04] josjoha: and i'm outnumbered in the forum thread as well, and they jumped on this issue which i barely touched and was not harping on by any means -- majority attacks minority ?
[2013/11/25 14:05] josjoha: it's true though that gay ppl have often been attacked, and so there is some reason to protect them, also being a minority

1. Is homosexuality an 'affliction'? Of course not! Homosexuality has existed in all cultures across the globe throughout recorded history. The evidence is often suppressed when homophobic views dominate the society but that doesn't stop the natural expression of same sex love. It's particularly hilarious that we should have this view stated in the CDS with our Roman sims. Take a look at "The Warren Cup" in the British Museum. It wasn't just the ancient Greeks who saw homosexuality as part of normal human behaviour.

2. Is homosexuality a choice? No. Personally, I have no more choice about my sexuality than…. any straight person! It's just the way I am and I'm fine with it. I assume that people who think homosexuality is a choice see it as some kind of forbidden fruit - one taste and you're hooked for life! Seems odd when the same people seem so disgusted by the notion. Even if it were a choice, so what? People can do what they like with their own bodies in liberal democracies. I think most tattoos don't look that great and shaving a hairy chest is a crime but I don't go shouting about it. I'd offend my friends with tattoos (which is virtually all of them these days) and really, other people's chests don't feature too strongly in my day to day life to get too worked up about it.

3. Are homosexuals violent, intolerant assholes who deny people free speech and beat up bigots? Wow, this one really turns the truth on it's head! It's like saying that objecting to the Westboro Baptist Church is intolerant. It's like saying "Why do these fags keep picking on me? All I said was they were going to burn in hell?" While many of us live in societies where a lot of progress has been made in recent years i.e. equal age of consent, discrimination protection, equal marriage, there are sections of society which literally hate LGBT people. They shout abuse at us in the streets (happened to me in River Island, shopping for some jeans with my partner, weren't even holding hands!), they are violent (had a rock thrown at me for kissing my partner in the street) and sometimes, they even kill people (guy punched and kicked to death in Trafalgar Square, central London for daring to challenge homophobic abuse).

Which is why some of us find these homophobic comments so disturbing. If you believe that LGBT people are 'afflicted' despite logical arguments to the contrary then there's not much I can do for you. In my view, people have the right to express such views. Others may find them a ToS violation. If so, there's a mechanism the Lindens have put in place for abuse reporting. The problem is that putting this stuff out there and spreading such ill-informed views creates a negative, hostile environment for LGBT people and it makes assaults - verbal and physical - much more likely. And please don't play the "I'm only expressing a minority viewpoint, please stop attacking me" line. You've come out with a load of homophobic bullshit Jos and I'm calling you out on it.

[Trebor Warcliffe]

Pat,

I'd like to thank you for taking the high road in this ugly situation and educating us instead of engaging in a chat war on the forums. I've been in the CDS for over 3 years now and I never knew you were gay. Why didn't I know? Because it doesn't fu***ng matter. My opinion of someone has nothing to do with their sexual orientation. My opinion of you hasn't changed one iota, there are things I still like about you and things I still don't like about you.

Trebor Warcliffe

[Tor Karlsvalt]

Hear! Hear! Treb and Pat!

As is obvious from most comments on this matter, our people support a diverse and open community. I am saddened, however, when some use our traditions of democracy, openness and freedom of speech to denigrate others while under the protection of ToS.

Tor

[Delia Lake]

Pat, thank you for your excellent post. I am a straight woman. I also am highly offended by the insults and innuendoes that have been directed at LGBT's.

[Bagheera]

Thank you, Pat. You picked out the same phrases from the inworld chat log I was looking at and said similar things to what I was thinking. You articulated it much better than I, and the value of your firsthand experience makes it much more accessible, even to those who've closed their minds.

Part of traveling is discovering the world is much wider than one learned to recognize from their own hometown. Those children who grow up nurtured by prejudiced adults and bombarded by some of the (unbelievable to me allowed on the air) bigoted pundits found in mainstream media, have a longer road to travel to come to acceptance. I have been to towns in the midwest U.S. where the entire community spoke racist, misogynistic, and bigoted remarks as easily and (for them - innocently) as they talked about the weather. So I am endeavoring to come at this with some compassion, even as I wholly condemn what was said.

From Jos's s transcript - there does appear to be some attempt on his part to think independently and put himself in the shoes of a gay minority member and why they might need protection. I think we want to nurture these tiny seedlings of personally arrived at insights and finding his own truth.

As for his comments in the forum about gays bringing about the decay of morality because of their lustfulness (paraphrased)...I think one only needs to look a tiny bit to see that "normal" people do indeed do similar acts to gays and far worse. Cruel, immoral, hateful acts seems to be part of the human condition in general - completely apart from any sexual orientation.

[Bromo Ivory]

Free speech, the freedom to make an a** of yourself, and having dysfunctional views are all tolerated in a free society.

If we aren't a free society, but one where we ban/execute the opinions we dislike - then carry on.

[Pip Torok]

Free speech, the freedom to make an a** of yourself, and having dysfunctional views are all tolerated in a free society.

If we aren't a free society, but one where we ban/execute the opinions we dislike - then carry on.

Bromo,

A "free society" in your terms would be a society where the freedom to make that society unfree would be a necessary component of that freedom.

In my country at least, we have hate crimes, where expressions designed to foster hateful actions and attitudes
result in the lack of that freedom.

There's a time to fiddle with definitions, Bromo, and a time to stop, look around, and see just where they have got you ...

Pip Torok

[cleopatraxigalia]

The truth is, no one posting on this thread except Jos was in the meeting from its beginning and honestly knows what happened or anything about Jos and his beliefs or the whole context in which his statements were made. I am baffled because I think he pays for a Gay Memorial in his home sim .. ?? Reading a chat log doesn't either give you the back story to it all or the motivations for anyone doing anything. None of us read minds last I checked.

As a member of the RA I suggest if someone thinks there is a law in the CDS that needs to be passed in order to fix whatever problem the CDS has regarding this matter that it be written and proposed.

Give the Love you are asking to get.

See the opportunity to truly embrace diversity.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails.

[josjoha]

Hello,

I am sorry if my tentative thoughts about gayishness have offended anyone. If someone does not want to know what my thoughts about this are at the moment, then they should not start the subject with me. I didn't start this subject. The subject (gayishness) was started as a demagoguery attempt to divert the attention from what had happened, which is griefing against the CDS by rezzing posters over other people their homes in an abvious violation of just about any common law and practice in CDS and elsewhere.

I have since learned that this (tiring) homo/gay subject is now raging a lot in America. I am not an American or Canadian or part of these anglo-saxon tribes. This subject of gayness or whatever is not discussed in my nation, except perhaps marginally by those so interested. Gay people have all manner of rights here, I think they can even marry. It wouldn't surprise me if gay persecution in the Netherlands is one of the least occuring in all these nations; I certainly never hear of it. I think therefore that the rage exhibited on this forum against me is wholly American, and part of some sort of a struggle that may be going on between polarized sides. Because of the tiniest opinion that I said, which amounted to nothing - but I'm sorry if it offended anyone - you thought perhaps I was on one or the other side of this war in the anglo-saxon tribes about this.

Again I'm sorry if I offended anyone. It is of course nonsense that I am a neo-nazi. In fact I'm in the left, far left, and labor unions, who have traditionally and to this day seen to the fact that gay people are not harrassed. This is your issue, it is not mine, I didn't bring it up, and please leave me alone about it, thank you. I am still open to apologies. If we can so all apologise and leave the subject, perhaps we can all get to the business of making the CDS an interesting democratic state.

I feel that the true reason of this vendetta may be that I have voiced certain criticism against the CDS system, such as that the SC is not a proper democratic court ("self appointed"), or had ideas of a somewhat new system for elections (voter groups), and was interested in the normal operations of Justice against an abuse of rezzing power. Apparently I have offended people in their offices of power, and now they where delighted to find something they could attack me with. I guess ... that's how it goes. There wouldn't be this vicious a counter-attack, if there was nothing to these criticism.

I call on everyone in the CDS not to elect again the people who have so extremely and disgracefully attacked me, because if this goes on then there may be freedom of speech: the freedom to say that which does not offend those in the high offices, because if you do they will spare no extreme to bully you out of the nation. Tolerance to other opinions is the bare minimum. I have not actually *acted* against any gay person, nor really said anything disruptive, nor repeated it, nor volunteered it but upon being provoced in hostile way on the bases of the claim to being persecuted merely for being gay while there was no such persecution of gaume for being gay. There was only an attempt at *prosecution* under the (common) law for the rezzing spree, and to avoid an erroneous legal precedent. I have (had) absolutely *nothing* against gaume personally, as I'm sure he knows full well. Never have I harassed him in person in CDS, not even after the rezzing offenses. He knows this. However even if I am on friendly terms with gaume, I found it proper to uphold the law for the sake of the law, that is all. Having attempted as much, I'm fine (as already said) to let the subject go (for lack of results). I hope the other side will also let it go, and let me continue to have certain criticisms of the CDS Constitution, which I only engage in for the sake of making them better.

Thank you for reading. Again I apologize if I offended anyone their feelings. I didn't realize you where so touchy on this subject. I promise not to talk or reply on the subject of gayishness in the CDS, a subject that has no interest to me at all anyway.

Having said that, I will not forget what has happened; however this is why CDS is so interesting because it is a model of the real world and attempts at proper reform in the RL nations. Therefore thank you for any harrassements and unfair treatments; these are valuable lessons in human behavior. Maybe then it is time to forget it all anyway, and focus on a brighter future for the CDS. I'm sorry for not bowing down to any bullying, starting to grovel and whimper. I won't do that. But I can say sorry for offending your feelings, and can promise to not talk about this subject in CDS even when an attempt at provocation is made. So with that I'll considder the subject dead and this discussion over for once & for all. If you want to ban me, go ahead, I'll accept the SC ruling on that without appeal and leave. Perhaps that is then the best for all, goodbye in that case.

best regards,
josjoha

[Trebor Warcliffe]

Hello,

I am sorry if my tentative thoughts about gayishness have offended anyone.

I have since learned that this (tiring) homo/gay subject is now raging a lot in America. I am not an American or Canadian or part of these anglo-saxon tribes. This subject of gayness or whatever is not discussed in my nation, except perhaps marginally by those so interested. Gay people have all manner of rights here, I think they can even marry. It wouldn't surprise me if gay persecution in the Netherlands is one of the least occuring in all these nations; I certainly never hear of it. I think therefore that the rage exhibited on this forum against me is wholly American, and part of some sort of a struggle that may be going on between polarized sides. Because of the tiniest opinion that I said, which amounted to nothing - but I'm sorry if it offended anyone - you thought perhaps I was on one or the other side of this war in the anglo-saxon tribes about this.

Again I'm sorry if I offended anyone. It is of course nonsense that I am a neo-nazi. In fact I'm in the left, far left, and labor unions, who have traditionally and to this day seen to the fact that gay people are not harrassed. This is your issue, it is not mine, I didn't bring it up, and please leave me alone about it, thank you.

Thank you for reading. Again I apologize if I offended anyone their feelings. I didn't realize you where so touchy on this subject. I promise not to talk or reply on the subject of gayishness in the CDS, a subject that has no interest to me at all anyway.

Having said that, I will not forget what has happened; however this is why CDS is so interesting because it is a model of the real world and attempts at proper reform in the RL nations. Therefore thank you for any harrassements and unfair treatments; these are valuable lessons in human behavior. Maybe then it is time to forget it all anyway, and focus on a brighter future for the CDS. I'm sorry for not bowing down to any bullying, starting to grovel and whimper. I won't do that. But I can say sorry for offending your feelings, and can promise to not talk about this subject in CDS even when an attempt at provocation is made. So with that I'll considder the subject dead and this discussion over for once & for all. If you want to ban me, go ahead, I'll accept the SC ruling on that without appeal and leave. Perhaps that is then the best for all, goodbye in that case.

best regards,
josjoha

I have taken the liberty to edit parts of josjoha's post for the areas that I felt were relevant in my response here. I may be in the minority here and while I was appalled at the offending post I feel that he is aware now of the reason behind his fellow citizens reactions to his post. Like he has pointed out his culture is quite different to many of ours so what we may find offensive or are very sensitive about he obviously wasn't aware of. He has admitted his mistake and apologized to all of us. I have not spoken to josjoha in world, my thoughts come mainly from this post. I'd like to ask my fellow citizens to place this ugly incident in the past and let's move on. One incident does not make an individual. I will not support a ban against josjoha.

Thank you,
Trebor Warcliffe

[Bromo Ivory]

Seems to me in light of Jos' post, it is clear who was picking a fight, and who was doing the "live as let live"

IN the English speaking world, we're mid-struggle in allowing for gay rights to marriage. This clearly colors our view in SL, though given the nature of SL and the pansexual nature of it between consenting adults who may have little knowledge of whose the keyboardist, it underlines how ridiculous the whole thing is!

I'm a "Live and Let Live" kind of avatar and keyboardist. I think if we "pile on" when someone says something we're not in agreement with, it speaks more to our intolerance than any sort of "hate" or what not.

[Pip Torok]

Seems to me in light of Jos' post, it is clear who was picking a fight, and who was doing the "live as let live"

IN the English speaking world, we're mid-struggle in allowing for gay rights to marriage. This clearly colors our view in SL, though given the nature of SL and the pansexual nature of it between consenting adults who may have little knowledge of whose the keyboardist, it underlines how ridiculous the whole thing is!

I'm a "Live and Let Live" kind of avatar and keyboardist. I think if we "pile on" when someone says something we're not in agreement with, it speaks more to our intolerance than any sort of "hate" or what not.

"Seems to me", Bromo, that you take the superficial picture as conclusive, and think no further ...

You come across two fellows. One is yelling his head off, the other looks bewildered and talks vaguely of live and let live. You do not see the pin in his hand. Is it clear to you which one's at fault, you who are so fond of first appearances?

And when no-one is ever-again killed, beaten-up, vilified or discriminated-against on account of such issues, then I'll gladly underline the ridicule with you, but I notice that Pat has had too close a brush with real harm, so I'll pass on that one.

And seeing people "pile-on" makes me think of why they're doing so and whether it's right ... rather than just letting a conclusion rush to my head.

'... that is what learning is. You suddenly understand something
you've understood all your life, but in a new way.'

-- Doris Lessing
(The Four-Gated City, 1969)

Pip Torok

[cleopatraxigalia]

I am shaking my head here lately trying to understand your posts Pip. But, I get that you say if a person thinks they are right in CDS then "piling on" (ganging up on them and attacking and provoking) the person they think is wrong is a proper and acceptable response in a democracy?

Is that what you are trying to say?

just asking
cleo

[Pip Torok]

I am shaking my head here lately trying to understand your posts Pip. But, I get that you say if a person thinks they are right in CDS then "piling on" (ganging up on them and attacking and provoking) the person they think is wrong is a proper and acceptable response in a democracy?

Is that what you are trying to say?

just asking
cleo

Try trying just a little harder, CLEOPATRA. If you've a problem with mental laziness, only you can deal with it, no one else.

But of course, the reason for your post may be straightforward. You may be trying to put what you would have liked me to have said into my mouth.

"Respect" is very much your baby, CLEO. I put quotes around it, well-deserved quotes. For you, respect amounts to no more than a restraint from expressions of dis-respect towards those whose perceived conformity meets with your royal approval.

'He must have a long spoon that must
eat with the devil.'

-- Wm Shakespeare (Comedy of Errors 4,3 1594)

Pip Torok

[Patroklus Murakami]

Well, I guess Jos's post is progress of a sort. He previously said he understand that LGBT people were a minority and deserving of protection. He has apologised for the offence caused by what he said. So, I think there are good things to take from this. I hoped that by challenging what he said in a very robust fashion that some learning might take place. It would seem that some has, so that's quite good to see.

Some of what Jos says though is rather self-serving and self-pitying. You really don't get to cast yourself as the victim when you have come out with a load of homophobic claptrap and been on a vendetta for Guillaume's scalp for several weeks but hey... let's forgive even if we never forget!