The Partnership/Citizenship problem once again, sigh

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Anjoux Herbit
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The Partnership/Citizenship problem once again, sigh

Post by Anjoux Herbit »

How does this work, if it still does? I searched the forum for this but cannot find any post-hippo answers re this. Here's the situation:

I have a house in LA - needed a few more prims, and Shep/Delia explained that prim parcels don't exist in LA, and the only way to have more available was to buy another parcel (ludicrous, but that's for another day). ok so went hunting for another small parcel - couldn't find one, but in wandering around found a much larger parcel in a better spot - long story, but bought the parcel and refunded myself from the old one so far, so good. love the new parcel - showed it to my Partner and former Citizen, Tori Landau - she loved it too, so much that we thought that if we bought the adjoining parcel, we could share the prims (maybe get the parcels merged into one larger parcel) - here's where the problem lies - Tori wants to return to CDS as a full Citizen, sharing our joint property - she currently owns (and is therefore a full Citizen) one of the two adjoining parcels, and I own the other. if one of us takes on the ownership of both parcels in order to share the prims OR if we have the two parcels joined together then one of us loses full Citizenship...

Note here that we're not trying to make two full Citizens out of a single parcel - we have each bought one, but we want to share both, whilst making a larger parcel and remaining full Citizens.

This is a deal-breaker for us - CDS stands to lose tenancy on a piotential three parcel tenancy, and two Citizens at a time it can ill afford this (I'm wondering if this may be putting off other couples wishing to become involved in CDS as more than as simple tenants).

Please tell me there's a solution for this (maybe merging the two parcels, then subdividing a tiny corner such that a tier box can be placed for Citizenship purposes? - I dunno) - over to you...

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Sudane Erato
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Re: The Partnership/Citizenship problem once again, sigh

Post by Sudane Erato »

I totally understand and sympathize with your dilemma. The definition of "citizen" seems so mechanical and arbitrary. But before we turn this issue into another passionate conflict in the CDS, please... please... everyone... think about what it takes to make an accurate list of who is a citizen in the CDS, and has the right to vote and determine our future.

A citizen is defined as a person who owns a parcel of land in the CDS. (and who is current in their tier). But the key thing with this inquiry is "owning a parcel of land". Consider what happens if you deed your land to your group... both parcels... so that you can share the prims, as you propose. All of a sudden we have no way to generate the list of citizens, since the group can incorporate any number of people, and the membership is hidden to any of the tools we have to determine names. How do we generate the list of citizens? (and I must say... it is an increasing request... more and more frequently there is a need for an accurate list of who is a citizen). But with a name on a parcel of land, we can cause a census to be taken, and know for a fact who is a citizen.

Sincerely... and from my heart... how else should we do this?

Consider also, please... please... your options. Yes, you have both parcels on LA with the same owner, essential for the combining of prims. But if the "non-owner" on LA crosses over to CN and buys one of the "S" parcels (tiny parcels around the central forum) you have, for the cost of less than one US$/month, become a citizen of the CDS. Is that so terrible? Please consider what it takes to administer this community, and please consider the full range of options, before you dismiss the imperfect solution that we've arrived at to try and keep an accurate list of CDS citizens.

Sudane......................

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Anjoux Herbit
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Re: The Partnership/Citizenship problem once again, sigh

Post by Anjoux Herbit »

Sudane - thanks for your reply - if as you say buying a CN "S" parcel is a solution, then what is wrong with my solution, which involves no extra cost? (the joining of the two parcels, and creation in a corner of a small parcel just large enough for Citizenship?

I understand the mechanics of the Citizen's list Sudane - but if the Tier box says Anj & Tori - you still have your list with no extra work required anywhere - what is the problem with reading the Partner Name from the box too?

It's not really the extra money Sudane - it's the principle - you have to buy an extra piece of land if your partner wants to be a Citizen - that takes us back to 2010 when CDS had this 100L/250L "subscription" to be a partnered Citizen - I now have three parcels in CDS and now have to buy a FOURTH in order for us both to be a Citizen... It's just not right

(edited to correct typos/spelling)

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Re: The Partnership/Citizenship problem once again, sigh

Post by Anjoux Herbit »

This will stop people coming to CDS, and stop people becoming involved in the Democracy - an example:

Newly partnered young couple find their way to CDS, find a lovely parcel on the harbourside in LA - maybe with a house, maybe not they move in, love the community and want to be a part of the CDS "thing" - want to have a say in how things are managed - maybe even want to become a member of the RA or Chancellor....

Oh, wait... they can't - because HE bought the parcel.... SHE has no chance of any office, as she's not a Citizen has no vote, and no rights - worthless in fact to all Governmental and statistical purposes

Of course, she can BUY herself a vote... grease the palms of the high and mighty if you like to get her some noticeable status...

Discriminatory politics my friends - there are still a few places like this in the Real World I believe so I guess it's not unprecedented...

...doesn't make it right though

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Re: The Partnership/Citizenship problem once again, sigh

Post by Delia Lake »

This is a dilemma. It would be great to have a workable solution to this. Over the years we have tried different ways to address this but so far haven't found one that works really well. Of course people who are real partners want to share living space and prims for that space. Maybe if we look at this with fresh eyes we'll find a way to do this that actually works. I agree there is a need to accommodate people who really are partners. Ideas anyone?

Adding a little to Sudane's comments, there are a couple of issues we need to consider in addressing partner-citizens: actual citizenship and land management. So far as citizenship goes we have tried group ownership of land that gave citizenship to more than one person. What happened in some of the groups was that one person was the actual payer of the tier and others in the group were really contributing little or nothing--so that a group might have 3, 5, 25 members and all became citizens with voting rights but only 1 person was paying. Clearly that doesn't work for our democracy. So we eliminated the group ownership of parcels option. Then we tried having microplots that were very, very tiny--not for building anything but simply so that partners could both be citizens. That didn't work either. (people who are interested in the history can do a search on the Forum, and read the archaic section of the laws on the Portal). We ended up going back to 1 plot 1 citizen again, because what we had tried hadn't worked.

Then there is the actual land management and accounting. To have fair joint ownership the management software has to be able to handle the accounting. Combining and decombining plots is possible technically but would make more work for our already hardworking land managers who volunteer their time. If it's just prims and building, it is possible to assign the land to a group but not deed it--which removes citizenship. Then for building and landscaping purposes you have joint living space. It would mean though having to set 2 music and media streams, one for each plot.

Anyway I think this is an issue worth exploring again and maybe this time we'll come up with something that works well. Here's hoping.

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Re: The Partnership/Citizenship problem once again, sigh

Post by Anjoux Herbit »

I say again - just read the partnerships from the hippo - easy enough to check - look at my or Tori's profile and it clearly says we are partnered to each other for all the world to see - we don't need, and I'm not proposing the 3/5/25 member groups ...just 2 which is the partnership limit imposed by SL anyway.

I wouldd have thought that it's easy enough - read the hippo "oh there's a partner showing" - check either the partner or owners SL profile - "yes they're partnered - 2 votes" - Done

how easy is that?

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Re: The Partnership/Citizenship problem once again, sigh

Post by Anjoux Herbit »

Delia Lake wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:04 am

Then we tried having microplots that were very, very tiny--not for building anything but simply so that partners could both be citizens. That didn't work either.

Delia - can you remember why this didn't work - I've tried all sorts of searches but cannot find it - on the face of it I can't see why there would be a problem with this - except maybe the actual physical effort involved.

Maybe another solution would be to formally declare a partnership to CDS - RP ceremony, or just a form to sign for the record in order to be granted Citizenship

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Re: The Partnership/Citizenship problem once again, sigh

Post by Coop »

http://portal.slcds.info/index.php/the- ... -assembly/

on the 17th of March 2012 CDSL 16-3 was passed

1. The RA voted to reform CDS Citizenship rules following the Citizenship Transparency Commission. The Bill, as passed, is here. Briefly, ‘group’, ‘sponsor’ and ‘partner’ citizenship are abolished and citizenship derives from land ownership (at least one plot) and being current in tier payments (for at least one plot). Anyone affected by this change is encouraged to purchase one of the many lots for sale in the CDS to maintain their citizenship.

Ayes – Anna, Patroklus, Rosie, Shep. Beathan has a 7-day vote.

So maybe someone can find the notes from the Citizenship Transparency Commission...

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Rosie Gray
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Re: The Partnership/Citizenship problem once again, sigh

Post by Rosie Gray »

What I could do to solve this issue, is combine the two parcels into one, and then subdivide a tiny corner separately that one of you could own to fulfill citizenship (but still pay the Hippo the same as you do now). I certainly don't mind doing that, but would like to know there is a chance that you'd stay there for a few months and that when the time comes to move that you'd notify me (or whoever is Chancellor) so that we can put it back the way it was, since it does add extra management/tracking/administration. What do you think?

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Re: The Partnership/Citizenship problem once again, sigh

Post by Widget Whiteberry »

I'm confused. The situation I think we have is that two adjoining parcels are in the names of two citizens, who are partners. On parcel 1, citizen A is the primary and citizen B is the secondary. On parcel 2, primary and secondary positions are reversed. Either citizen can feed the hippo. Both partners allow prim modification permissions to the other. Both are citizens. What am I missing?

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Re: The Partnership/Citizenship problem once again, sigh

Post by Rosie Gray »

Widget Whiteberry wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:00 pm

What am I missing?

It is the issue of sharing the prims across the parcels, since they would have to 'deed' their parcels to their group to do that, but deeded land is not eligible for citizenship qualification.

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Tori Landau
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Re: The Partnership/Citizenship problem once again, sigh

Post by Tori Landau »

I think Rosie's solution is sensible and thank you very much Rosie for suggesting it.

I do think, however, that there is an issue here. The group that Anj and I would have been deeding each of the two plots to only has us in it, no-one else would have been able to use the land and we would still each have had separate meters. Perhaps in future this issue of group ownership may be discussed; the law could be that the two people are the only people in the land owning group and that each has their own meter. Just a friendly suggestion :)

In saying that though, as a region owner myself with residents coming and going I do greatly appreciate that being asked to make changes can take up quite a lot of time and effort, especially when everyone here is a volunteer.

With all best wishes,

Tori

Anjoux Herbit
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Re: The Partnership/Citizenship problem once again, sigh

Post by Anjoux Herbit »

Tori Landau wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:39 pm

I think Rosie's solution is sensible and thank you very much Rosie for suggesting it.

...and yes, I can confirm we'll be staying awhile :)

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Re: The Partnership/Citizenship problem once again, sigh

Post by Anjoux Herbit »

Coop wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:15 am

http://portal.slcds.info/index.php/the- ... -assembly/

on the 17th of March 2012 CDSL 16-3 was passed

...
...

Ayes – Anna, Patroklus, Rosie, Shep. Beathan has a 7-day vote.

So maybe someone can find the notes from the Citizenship Transparency Commission...

Thanls Coop :)

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Re: The Partnership/Citizenship problem once again, sigh

Post by Han Held »

Rosie Gray wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:17 pm
Widget Whiteberry wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:00 pm

What am I missing?

It is the issue of sharing the prims across the parcels, since they would have to 'deed' their parcels to their group to do that, but deeded land is not eligible for citizenship qualification.

Do you really have to go all the way and 'deed' it, though? Isn't it possible to set the land to a group (but NOT deed) and then put items out under that group?

Isn't deeding only really necessary for media devices or sharing teir (on mainland)?

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