disfunctional government

Here you might discuss basically everything.

Moderator: SC Moderators

Gareth Kanarik
Casual contributor
Casual contributor
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:32 pm

Re: disfunctional government

Post by Gareth Kanarik »

Since there is so much discussion about it, how much land is being affected not being current on tier, reclaimed or otherwise?

User avatar
Han Held
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 690
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:52 pm
Contact:

Re: disfunctional government

Post by Han Held »

Gareth Kanarik wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:07 am

Since there is so much discussion about it, how much land is being affected not being current on tier, reclaimed or otherwise?

It's less a question of how much land, or money. it's a question of citizenship because citizenship rests on ownership of land in the CDS and if someone is in arrears it affects who is and who isn't a citizen.

My proposal. Tweak it as y'all see fit;
EMergency EM EMpowerment Act]

---
"I could talk talk talk, talk myself to death
But I believe I would only waste my breath" -Roxy Music "Remake, remodel"
Gareth Kanarik
Casual contributor
Casual contributor
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:32 pm

Re: disfunctional government

Post by Gareth Kanarik »

Are people behind in tier active in government? I'm trying to figure out if this is a active or hypothetical issue, right now.

User avatar
Han Held
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 690
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:52 pm
Contact:

Re: disfunctional government

Post by Han Held »

Gareth Kanarik wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:19 am

Are people behind in tier active in government? I'm trying to figure out if this is a active or hypothetical issue, right now.

That doesn't matter, because it affects who is and isn't a citizen. That means who's eligible to vote and who's eligible to run for office.

[edit to clarify]I haven't checked Casper today, but based on the emails I've gotten, I believe there's a few people whose parcels are in arrears [/edit to clarify] and the estate is losing money and possibly citizens -this is an issue that needs to be addressed and not simply kicked down the road.

As I said above, this is the third time we've been in this situation just in the time I've been here (since Feb 2015).

---
"I could talk talk talk, talk myself to death
But I believe I would only waste my breath" -Roxy Music "Remake, remodel"
User avatar
Han Held
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 690
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:52 pm
Contact:

Re: disfunctional government

Post by Han Held »

Tanoujin Milestone wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:41 am

By the way, when did Tor state Estate Managers are not allowed to write tier reminders to citizens in arrears? I was not aware of that fact and would like to see a source.

I missed this (Sorry! I literally have not had coffee yet); for whatever it's worth I was told the same thing by Rosie when she made me an EM.

I'm not sure if there's a written document that outlines what the powers and limits of Estate Managers are -maybe someone can cite which law or paste a link if there is one?

---
"I could talk talk talk, talk myself to death
But I believe I would only waste my breath" -Roxy Music "Remake, remodel"
User avatar
Sylvia Tamalyn
Master Word Wielder
Master Word Wielder
Posts: 458
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:07 am

Re: disfunctional government

Post by Sylvia Tamalyn »

There is nothing in writing, as I stated earlier in the thread.

If, and this is a big "if", the EMs were to be given more power, it had better be set out in very specific terms and not rushed with a law that has not been well thought out. "In arrears", for example, is open to interpretation. Would you evict someone the second their tier box flipped to red? I would not think so, but then... when? Since we do not have written instructions to guide EMs, we already on occasion have confusion as to who is doing what, and I see this only getting worse if we do not set out an exact plan for what is to be done when and by whom.

If an emergency grant of power is to be made, I would rather see it given to one person, to act basically as Chancellor "pro tempore". Who that person should be, I don't know. Perhaps the PIO, if Rosie would be willing to take it on for the remainder of the term?

User avatar
Tanoujin Milestone
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 535
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:42 pm

Re: disfunctional government

Post by Tanoujin Milestone »

While I need time to get used to that idea (i do not necessarily oppose this proposal) I am grateful Sylvia mentioned CDSL 21-05 Tier Collection and Land Reclamation Act. We should either add a reference to that law or incorporate the 14 day in arrears period set for land reclamation there.

Like 3) Evict Citizen parcels which have fallen into arrears for 14 days consecutively
4) Reclaim parcels which are in arrears since 14 days

I base this on CDSL 21-05 Part 2: „5. At fourteen days overdue, if the landowner has failed to pay the full amount outstanding and absent a declaration of ‘special circumstances.’ then the Executive shall reclaim the parcel.“

Still, Sylvia is right we would need to determine a person who is coordinating the actions of the Exec regarding Land management.

I really do not know yet what to think of it.

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
Ian Maclaren
User avatar
Han Held
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 690
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:52 pm
Contact:

Re: disfunctional government

Post by Han Held »

Sylvia Tamalyn wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:54 am

If an emergency grant of power is to be made, I would rather see it given to one person, to act basically as Chancellor "pro tempore". Who that person should be, I don't know. Perhaps the PIO, if Rosie would be willing to take it on for the remainder of the term?

That strikes me as inefficent -what if something happens to her? I think it's best to spread out the responsibilities as widely as we're able to.

I would be in favor of Chancellors-in-waiting, though. I think in the future it would be a good practice if the Chancellor was able to pick out a couple of assistants (ideally one from the RA, one from the SC) who are able to act on her befhalf in the event they go incommunicado.

I'm not sure if that would need legal codification or not -if it would, maybe y'all could work on laying the groundwork for that to happen?

---
"I could talk talk talk, talk myself to death
But I believe I would only waste my breath" -Roxy Music "Remake, remodel"
User avatar
Han Held
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 690
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:52 pm
Contact:

Re: disfunctional government

Post by Han Held »

Sylvia Tamalyn wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:54 am

There is nothing in writing, as I stated earlier in the thread.

If, and this is a big "if", the EMs were to be given more power, it had better be set out in very specific terms and not rushed with a law that has not been well thought out. "In arrears", for example, is open to interpretation. Would you evict someone the second their tier box flipped to red? I would not think so, but then... when? Since we do not have written instructions to guide EMs, we already on occasion have confusion as to who is doing what, and I see this only getting worse if we do not set out an exact plan for what is to be done when and by whom.

Seperately, it would be nice to solve that particular problem. I'm not sure we'd need to pass leglislation either.

As I see it, there's two things that need to happen;
1)An document should be drawn up (in plain english) outlining the responsiblities and powers of an EM, and document prodedures such as what to do in the event of griefing
2)Set up a mailing list or some seperate semi-permanent communication channel seperate from the forum (this is imperative for the sake of minimizing drama) for current EM's to communicate in. When someone is no longer an EM, they would -of course, be ejected from the mailing list.

The goal of having the mailing list being to have a written way to compare notes but not one that can be dug up and used for fodder by jerkwads that join up five years after the fact (after any fact)

---
"I could talk talk talk, talk myself to death
But I believe I would only waste my breath" -Roxy Music "Remake, remodel"
User avatar
Tanoujin Milestone
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 535
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:42 pm

Re: disfunctional government

Post by Tanoujin Milestone »

Han Held wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:18 am

I would be in favor of Chancellors-in-waiting, though. I think in the future it would be a good practice if the Chancellor was able to pick out a couple of assistants (ideally one from the RA, one from the SC) who are able to act on her befhalf in the event they go incommunicado.

Sorry, no! We need separation of powers, the issues have to be sorted within the Exec.

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
Ian Maclaren
User avatar
Bagheera
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:32 pm

Re: disfunctional government

Post by Bagheera »

Han Held wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:30 am
Tanoujin Milestone wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:41 am

By the way, when did Tor state Estate Managers are not allowed to write tier reminders to citizens in arrears? I was not aware of that fact and would like to see a source.

I missed this (Sorry! I literally have not had coffee yet); for whatever it's worth I was told the same thing by Rosie when she made me an EM.

I'm not sure if there's a written document that outlines what the powers and limits of Estate Managers are -maybe someone can cite which law or paste a link if there is one?

I only just saw this and I find this a bit confusing and will do so more research and follow up further...however, my initial remark is that the practice has been for the past several years that EMs DO send out notices regarding tier. Our laws have specific instructions for how notices should be sent but they do not specify that the Chancellor alone can send them out, just that they come from the Executive (at least by my interpretation). Also, our laws have a cut off date for parcel ownership being terminated that the Chancellor can waive at their discretion (not vice versa). Parcel ownership is not supposed to continue ad infinitum until someone makes an executive decision.

About Tor saying no one should send out notices instead of him, this is the first I had heard of it. I went back through my IM log and see, last April, I sent out notices regarding late tier and told Tor who I sent them to including whether they were notecards or IMs, and additional details about each account involved. His reaction was "Thanks" and some further direction about how he likes to do it (IM first, as a nudge, then a notecard)...so, from my interpretation, nothing but encouragement from him to continue the practice as I had done.

Were the EMs instructed to not follow through with late tier given those instructions because they were new EMs or still learning Casper, or some other valid individual reason - not a blanket direction to all EMs? Perhaps the instructions have been applied too broadly?

It does not make sense for each Chancellor to have to rewrite EM protocol from scratch, so I believe the tradition has been that, unless instructed otherwise, EMs should continue as they have always done. My misunderstanding of this was partially what got me in such hot water when I was Chancellor, causing me a lot of personal turmoil; so this may be why I have paid more attention than most.

Since my personal last direction from Tor on this matter was to continue on as I had been, I will take it upon myself to send out notices if no other EM believes they have the right to do so. It seems crazy that we have come to such a pass, but I will do this and if I am wrong, let the axe fall upon me. I have in writing, from my IM log, that I had this conversation with Tor and no directive to stop, so that is what I will do.

Usually I Dislike a Cloud Sky
Tonight I Realize That a Cloud Sky
Makes Me Appreciate the Light of the Moon
- impromptu poem composed by Gen'i
as depicted in Yoshitoshi's 100 Aspects of the Moon
User avatar
Han Held
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 690
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:52 pm
Contact:

Re: disfunctional government

Post by Han Held »

He's back now, at least for a couple of weeks; so all's well that ends

---
"I could talk talk talk, talk myself to death
But I believe I would only waste my breath" -Roxy Music "Remake, remodel"
User avatar
Bagheera
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:32 pm

Re: disfunctional government

Post by Bagheera »

Also, to clarify, our laws don't allow someone to vote or run for office if they are in arrears.

Usually I Dislike a Cloud Sky
Tonight I Realize That a Cloud Sky
Makes Me Appreciate the Light of the Moon
- impromptu poem composed by Gen'i
as depicted in Yoshitoshi's 100 Aspects of the Moon
User avatar
Han Held
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 690
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:52 pm
Contact:

Re: disfunctional government

Post by Han Held »

Bagheera wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:48 pm

Also, to clarify, our laws don't allow someone to vote or run for office if they are in arrears.

Yep that's what I was trying to point out; ownership (in good standing -ie not in arrears) establishes citizenship which shapes the outcome of elections.

---
"I could talk talk talk, talk myself to death
But I believe I would only waste my breath" -Roxy Music "Remake, remodel"
User avatar
Guillaume Mistwalker
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 585
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:05 pm
Contact:

Re: disfunctional government

Post by Guillaume Mistwalker »

Gareth Kanarik wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:19 am

Are people behind in tier active in government? I'm trying to figure out if this is a active or hypothetical issue, right now.

Since no one explicitly answered you, Gareth, I'll comment. Currently, there is one EM who is in arrears. If one is an elected official, that is a problem, since elected officials must be citizens; but, if one if appointed, I do not believe the same restriction applies.

Tanoujin Milestone wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:10 am

While I need time to get used to that idea (i do not necessarily oppose this proposal) I am grateful Sylvia mentioned CDSL 21-05 Tier Collection and Land Reclamation Act. We should either add a reference to that law or incorporate the 14 day in arrears period set for land reclamation there.

Like 3) Evict Citizen parcels which have fallen into arrears for 14 days consecutively
4) Reclaim parcels which are in arrears since 14 days

I base this on CDSL 21-05 Part 2: „5. At fourteen days overdue, if the landowner has failed to pay the full amount outstanding and absent a declaration of ‘special circumstances.’ then the Executive shall reclaim the parcel.“

Still, Sylvia is right we would need to determine a person who is coordinating the actions of the Exec regarding Land management.

I really do not know yet what to think of it.

If this needs to be spelled out, we can amend the law at the next meeting. That said, I cannot log onto the website, so I can not amend the law following our vote.

Gaius Nebuliens Curio (Guillaume Mistwalker)
si enim pecunias aequari non placet, si ingenia omnium paria esse non possunt, iura certe paria debent esse eorum inter se, qui sunt cives in eadem re publica. (Cic. De Rep. 1.32.49)
Post Reply

Return to “General Discussion”