Continuation of discussion from RA Gov Announcements

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Continuation of discussion from RA Gov Announcements

Post by Bagheera »

Rosie and I were having a discussion that began in an area where posting is limited to RA members. Since this is not a topic of a current bill that is exclusive to RA discussion, I felt it appropriate to move it into the General Discussion area.

The original thread can be found here: https://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=8569

Rosie Gray wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:51 pm

I don't see what the problem is with a spreadsheet that everyone can see with the link, and all on the RA have access to to comment on, and anyone else that wanted access to it to comment could have it if they asked. Is there a law somewhere that says we must use in-world or forums only to communicate? If so I don't know what it is so would appreciate seeing it! It just makes communication sense to me to use these tools.

To your question about existing law, I believe this has been a discussion that has come up several times over the years and resulted in at least two laws which are currently in force.

https://cdsdemocracy.org/faqs/cdsl-17-0 ... ation-act/

CDSL 17-01 Citizen Notification Act
1. Posting information on the CDS forums and via in world notices will be considered to be sufficient notification to citizens of changes which affect them.

2. Citizens will be given at least 30 days notice of such changes.

3. This Act shall not apply to notice of meetings provided that any action taken at the meeting is ineffective for thirty days under this Act to allow citizen comment and requests for revision.

4. This Act shall apply only to general, public actions, and not to private actions (such as covenant enforcement and foreclosure for not paying tier)

Passed 30 June 2012, amended 4 August 2012

and

https://cdsdemocracy.org/faqs/cdsl-23-0 ... media-act/

CDSL 23-03 Social Media Act

(too long to post so follow link to see complete law)

The first law - the citizen notification act - came about because there had become a trend towards people feeling they had to participate in Facebook, they had to communicate via email, etc. and the law came about to make it clear that citizens were only accountable for information that was shared either inworld through the CDS group or on the forums...that citizens were not be expected to be responsive to information posted anywhere else.

There is the issue of CDS remaining in control of its own records. Yes, I posted the outcome of inworld discussions on a table I created on my own website but I DID also post the entire table here on these forums (even though it is currently not easily readable). Once an administrator activates the BBCode to read tables - that table will be entirely available here on this forum - in the place where it is supposed to be, in the place where it can reliably be accessed and secure in the CDS archive. It is not subject to the vagaries of outside corporate interests. (because you never know...the latest is Github being acquired by Microsoft, for example...)

There is the issue of forcing citizens to enter into multiple contracts with entities they might not want to do business with. To participate in the table Rosie created, for example, it requires not only that Rosie be contacted to give permission for them to participate but it also requires that a person sign up for Google+...it means a person has to enter into a contract with Google to participate in CDS business with all the strings attached that contract entails.

When the citizen notification act was passed into law, there were a number of other citizens who were not in favor of that kind of requirement, myself included.

Last but not least, even if there were no existing laws addressing these situations, to say "there is no law" is counterproductive. CDS is a living experiment in virtual democracy. If a situation isn't right in its current form, the whole idea is to put in place the processes to evolve and adjust the laws to make CDS a stable virtual home for all the citizens.

My opinions, for what they are worth.

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Re: Continuation of discussion from RA Gov Announcements

Post by Rosie Gray »

Well, a few things here:

1) I posted the information about my spreadsheet in the forums, as you know. The link can be found here http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 321#p47321 and directly to the document here:

There is the issue of forcing citizens to enter into multiple contracts with entities they might not want to do business with. To participate in the table Rosie created, for example, it requires not only that Rosie be contacted to give permission for them to participate but it also requires that a person sign up for Google+...it means a person has to enter into a contract with Google to participate in CDS business with all the strings attached that contract entails.

Anyone can view it, whether or not they are invited to participate in writing comments on it or not, and whether or not they have a Google account. Anyone who wanted to comment on it and didn't want to use Google docs would be free to make comments during RA meetings, or post on the forums here if they so wish.

2) I also made an announcement through the CDS group about it.

3) It is meant to be a working document only, not a finished product. I like this way of working because everyone can see what is being said, and by whom, all in one place.

4) You mention the table that you created and brought inworld. I find this kind of table very difficult to read when brought inworld like that, on a prim. No comments can be made directly onto it. This means that anyone trying to track what is being said has to read through reams of transcripts, and who knows if they would see all comments. This is in my opinion highly awkward and inefficient.

5) CDSL 23-03 Social Media Act is in my opinion irrelevant to this discussion.

6)

CDSL 17-01 Citizen Notification Act
1. Posting information on the CDS forums and via in world notices will be considered to be sufficient notification to citizens of changes which affect them.

Nothing in this indicates that we cannot use additional means of communication. I interpret that as long as the forums and inworld notices are used, that additional means of communication is fine. There is no requirement that anyone comment on my Google spreadsheet, only the option to.

7)

Last but not least, even if there were no existing laws addressing these situations, to say "there is no law" is counterproductive. CDS is a living experiment in virtual democracy. If a situation isn't right in its current form, the whole idea is to put in place the processes to evolve and adjust the laws to make CDS a stable virtual home for all the citizens.

I find it counterproductive to have to defend my use of a perfectly wonderful, free tool that anyone can use if they wish, and can just look at if they don't want to use it themselves. I fail to see why you are pursuing an objection to it. You don't need to use it if you don't want to. Other people don't have any problem with it.

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Re: Continuation of discussion from RA Gov Announcements

Post by Han Held »

We are an experiment in a living democracy, part of that involves integrating and testing new technologies and methods. As long as the tools are freely accessible, I personally don't have a problem either.

If it required, for example, the installation of Microsoft Office (which requires windows, and a pc) that would be one thing. But to the best of my knowlege it doesn't.

That's my gut reaction; I'm distracted so I'll be the first to admit I'm undoubtably missing some nuance.

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Re: Continuation of discussion from RA Gov Announcements

Post by Lilith Ivory »

I am a little amazed about this discussion as CDS workgroups - governmental or not - have a long tradition of using Google Sheets for brainstorming

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Re: Continuation of discussion from RA Gov Announcements

Post by Bagheera »

I do not believe Google docs should be the place to have a government discussion, nor should discussions be held on Google docs where a person who chooses to not participate via that medium is shut out from the discussion or has to ping pong between the forums or inworld meetings to answer to comments made on Google docs.

Yes, the table I created on my own website was very awkward. I had hoped to get one of the moderators of this forum to turn on the BBCode function for Tables - which is already built into this platform. I really wish we used the tools at our disposal that we are paying for. CDS has the tools - a private website, a private forum, private sims - to be able to handle all of what we need in-house and with very little additional effort.

I may be a minority of one on this, which is fine, but it is something I feel very strongly about. Whether or not CDS has done it in the past, it has been a rarity and up for discussion every time (if by no one else, it has always been by me). If CDS chooses instead to mainline the use of a 3rd party contractor like Google that relies on harvesting and selling individual users real life data to support their service, I will remove myself from the equation.

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Re: Continuation of discussion from RA Gov Announcements

Post by Rosie Gray »

You are under no obligation to use google docs, Bags. It shouldn't stop others from doing so though.

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Re: Continuation of discussion from RA Gov Announcements

Post by Han Held »

Bagheera wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:18 pm

I may be a minority of one on this, which is fine, but it is something I feel very strongly about. Whether or not CDS has done it in the past, it has been a rarity and up for discussion every time (if by no one else, it has always been by me). If CDS chooses instead to mainline the use of a 3rd party contractor like Google that relies on harvesting and selling individual users real life data to support their service, I will remove myself from the equation.

Google, along with yahoo and Bing (and a couple other search engines I can't remember offhand) has bots which regularly crawl web forums; so I don't believe that you escape data harvesting by using the forum. However, your point about using the tools we're already paying for is a fair one.

Another good argument is the historic record. Since I've been here many, many, many

many

many governmental (RA and other) discussions have taken place in email. That's fine, I haven't objected but it has to be noted that it is harmful to the institutional memory of the CDS.

I'm putting that out there as an observation, and nothing else.

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Re: Continuation of discussion from RA Gov Announcements

Post by Han Held »

Email's a lost cause, but would it be possible to somehow archive the google sheet info on our forum or portal somehow? That way the discussions aren't totally gone?

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Re: Continuation of discussion from RA Gov Announcements

Post by Bagheera »

Han, if RA discussions are happening via email, I don't know about them. I don't check my email for important notifications, I check the forums and my IMs and notecards inworld. If you are emailing me, there is a good chance I won't see it in a timely manner. I have conceded that EM functions happen via email and Google docs, but technically they aren't part of the documented progression of CDS activity but informal tools used by the Executive to keep in communication with its members (although the EM spreadsheet - although not codified into CDS law - seems to be turning into something more...). I do have special notifications set up for Casper and EM notifications via email because I agreed to it, but other matters won't get seen.

Rosie, the statement you make, that I (Bags) can choose to not use spreadsheets is not accurate. As LRA - or even just as any RA member or someone interested in CDS governance - if important discussions are being held on Google spreadsheets (not just the viewing of data, which can happen without logging in - but comments and back-and-forth dialogue that require logging in) - then there is no choice. If CDS pursues this course, then those who want to participate in this government, would have to use them.

You seem to believe the law I quoted does not preclude their use. I believe that it does. We don't always follow our laws, true; but we should try - or if they are not working - fix them. That's the point of CDS, in my opinion.

Han Held wrote: Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:26 am
Bagheera wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:18 pm

I may be a minority of one on this, which is fine, but it is something I feel very strongly about. Whether or not CDS has done it in the past, it has been a rarity and up for discussion every time (if by no one else, it has always been by me). If CDS chooses instead to mainline the use of a 3rd party contractor like Google that relies on harvesting and selling individual users real life data to support their service, I will remove myself from the equation.

Google, along with yahoo and Bing (and a couple other search engines I can't remember offhand) has bots which regularly crawl web forums; so I don't believe that you escape data harvesting by using the forum. However, your point about using the tools we're already paying for is a fair one.

Another good argument is the historic record. Since I've been here many, many, many

many

many governmental (RA and other) discussions have taken place in email. That's fine, I haven't objected but it has to be noted that it is harmful to the institutional memory of the CDS.

I'm putting that out there as an observation, and nothing else.

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Re: Continuation of discussion from RA Gov Announcements

Post by Bagheera »

Addendum... also, Google is banned in China. I have at least one friend who lives in China who is a well-known SL Creator. If he came to CDS and we hoped for him to participate in our government, I believe he would be entirely unable to access materials hosted on the Google platform.

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Re: Continuation of discussion from RA Gov Announcements

Post by Han Held »

I think it would be very good to change the laws to reflect current practices.

Every time I read about "the great firewall" of china on Hacker News etc, someone always mentions VPNs and that they're a thing over there. So it is possible to utilize google etc.

That is beside the point, though.

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Re: Continuation of discussion from RA Gov Announcements

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Han Held wrote: Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:04 pm

I think it would be very good to change the laws to reflect current practices.

Every time I read about "the great firewall" of china on Hacker News etc, someone always mentions VPNs and that they're a thing over there. So it is possible to utilize google etc.

That is beside the point, though.

My understanding of this is that if you can access Second Life at all, you are using a VPN to do so, as SL is also blocked to Chinese citizens. I remember this from speaking with Nolligan about how he was able to access SL.

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Re: Continuation of discussion from RA Gov Announcements

Post by Rosie Gray »

Bagheera wrote: Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:19 am

Han, if RA discussions are happening via email, I don't know about them. I don't check my email for important notifications, I check the forums and my IMs and notecards inworld. If you are emailing me, there is a good chance I won't see it in a timely manner. I have conceded that EM functions happen via email and Google docs, but technically they aren't part of the documented progression of CDS activity but informal tools used by the Executive to keep in communication with its members (although the EM spreadsheet - although not codified into CDS law - seems to be turning into something more...). I do have special notifications set up for Casper and EM notifications via email because I agreed to it, but other matters won't get seen.

It is necessary as an EM to monitor the messages sent via email from Casperlet when someone new pays into a box, or when they are overdue, or seeing the emails set up by Sudane that advise about land purchases, in order for an Estate Manager to be useful helping to manage the land sales. I see them almost every day, and that's the only way I was able to keep up on who was moving when and where, in order to manage the parcels properly. This is an almost everyday occurrence, as I'm sure Han and others can attest to. If you aren't looking for these notices on a regular basis, and aren't willing to fill in the EM Actions spreadsheet, then it's difficult to see how effective you can be as an EM.

Bagheera wrote: Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:19 am

Rosie, the statement you make, that I (Bags) can choose to not use spreadsheets is not accurate. As LRA - or even just as any RA member or someone interested in CDS governance - if important discussions are being held on Google spreadsheets (not just the viewing of data, which can happen without logging in - but comments and back-and-forth dialogue that require logging in) - then there is no choice. If CDS pursues this course, then those who want to participate in this government, would have to use them.

As I mentioned before, anyone can see the spreadsheet I used, even if they aren't logged in, and you can always comment through the forums if that's the way you prefer. I prefer to see the suggestions all in one place where it is easiest to follow. You yourself created a quite advanced functioning google spreadsheet that we used for calculating prims on all the regions, in 2017. It was very useful, and still there:

Bagheera wrote: Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:19 am

You seem to believe the law I quoted does not preclude their use. I believe that it does. We don't always follow our laws, true; but we should try - or if they are not working - fix them. That's the point of CDS, in my opinion.

Then this could be a discussion that the RA has, as we obviously don't interpret that law the same way. I do believe that we should try to follow our laws as much as possible, and when they are broken, fix them. However I note that for literally years it would be impossible for the CDS to adhere strictly to the laws because so many of them were, and many still are, badly outdated. Let's continue to work on that.

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Re: Continuation of discussion from RA Gov Announcements

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Rosie Gray wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:42 pm
Han Held wrote: Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:04 pm

Every time I read about "the great firewall" of china on Hacker News etc, someone always mentions VPNs and that they're a thing over there. So it is possible to utilize google etc.

My understanding of this is that if you can access Second Life at all, you are using a VPN to do so, as SL is also blocked to Chinese citizens. I remember this from speaking with Nolligan about how he was able to access SL.

I wouldn't be surprised -in fact I'd be surprised if they didn't need a VPN.

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Re: Continuation of discussion from RA Gov Announcements

Post by Guillaume Mistwalker »

The law cited by Bagheera is rather broad. If a spreadsheet or other Google document is posted to the forum then, in my opinion, that constitutes notification, but the term "changes which affect them" is a very broad statement.

Arrangements can be made to comply and allow for citizens to access and to comment on these documents, as well, and Google Documents can always be accessed from an account with a pseudonym not tied to one's RL persona. But, regardless of whether or not one uses Google, as Bagheera complains of, one can still access and respond to that information, even if they cannot comment on the document. As Rosie notes, there are alternative arrangements that can be made if one does not wish to enter into a contract with Google. In other words, Google Docs, in my opinion, do not violate one's privacy or constitute a barrier to public information. They are instead a word processor which can be an incredibly helpful tool for our government.

To claim that this is about privacy and thus legitimate or proper grounds for leaving the CDS is smoke and mirrors. The CDS has used these platforms for years and, to be quite honest, we have done a lot of business and so have many other people and organisations. I refuse to believe that our project's government should be forced into ineffective governance and not using our citizens' readily available information systems because it inconveniences the one person who is uncomfortable with setting up an account under a pseudonym or who wishes to inconvenience the whole community because of their paranoia. That is not responsible government.

To be quite honest, Bagheera, I am disappointed in you for quitting the whole community while being LRA over such a trifling matter.

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