CDS Citizenship --- yet again!

[Rosie Gray]

Who would be responsible for creating the groups and monitoring them? Would you be happy to have your land under the control of a group that you didn't own? Who has enough empty group slots available to offer host groups? Sorry but I don't see this as practical. Any system needs to be arranged so that it is transparent (and groups are not transparent to those not in them).

[Rosie Gray]

As a side note to this discussion, I'd just like to point out that the small parcels inside the city walls of Neufreistadt range from about L$375 to about L$575 per month tier. That is the equivalent of roughly $3 US to $3.80 US. Not bad for a tax that allows you to have citizenship, vote, run for office, join committees, and be a full member of the CDS community (not to mention your own little private space to do what you want with, inside the building or up in the air). I think most people spend more than that on tipping performers and buying shoes in SL per month, and isn't a great deal to ask of someone wanting to be a citizen. As Sudane pointed out, the CDS depends on the tiers paid for land to pay the tier owed to Linden Labs.

[richie deschanel]

You completely miss the point - it is not about the size of the plot or the tier that you pay it is about partners being able to share. Your argument about group numbers could easily be solved by CDS group bots and yes, I would trust the government to be a sleeping partner in the group. The fact that we can get around this by deeding and un-deeding shows how silly this has become. When the land is deeded the original owner is still the only one who can pay tier on the CDS system - use tier records as opposed to land ownership records to confirm citizenship.

[richie deschanel]

We are both citizens and we both pay tier - we just want to be able to group our prim allowances without losing citizenship. It isn’t rocket science but as CDS resident for over 12 years I know how parochial and intransigent things can be here.

[richie deschanel]

As a matter of record the reason Awen hasn’t posted yet on this thread is because her application for forum membership hasn’t been actioned yet.

[Rosie Gray]

You completely miss the point - it is not about the size of the plot or the tier that you pay it is about partners being able to share. Your argument about group numbers could easily be solved by CDS group bots and yes, I would trust the government to be a sleeping partner in the group. The fact that we can get around this by deeding and un-deeding shows how silly this has become. When the land is deeded the original owner is still the only one who can pay tier on the CDS system - use tier records as opposed to land ownership records to confirm citizenship.

Who would manage the CDS group bot? Who would have access to it and be responsible for creating the groups and setting up all the appropriate permission, monitoring who is in them, and counting the citizens for census? How would this process be transparent when Groups in SL aren't transparent entities?

FYI anyone can pay tier on any Casperlet in the CDS. It provides a warning so that you don't do it by accident. However, the Casperlet remains in the name of the parcel owner only. This has nothing to do with if the land is deeded or not.

[richie deschanel]

However, the Casperlet remains in the name of the parcel owner only. This has nothing to do with if the land is deeded or not.

My point exactly - use these records to determine citizenship.

“Government by the people for the people”

[Cathy Sabre]

Would it be a useful idea (in theory) for partners to buy two contiguous lots (one in each name), using one as a garden with lo-prim landscaping plus an anchor for a main dwelling, leaving all the prims on the second for furnishings? Each plot could list (without deeding) a common group, so all the prims could be shared by both -- plus whomever they might invite to the group. The only problem, of course, is the "prim lot" has to be next door, but contiguous lots do appear, from time to time, and as many plots in NFS are for membership status, it may not be too hard to arrange a swap.

I just skimmed through the 2 pages of discussion, and maybe this idea has been (or will be) discarded as too prosaic or maybe it has been done, but didn't work out. *Sigh. Sometimes, however, it is easier to work around obnoxious regulations rather than try to change them.

It wouldn't solve the problem of citizenship, but years of debate haven't either. The vote of last resort, of course, in any society, is with the feet.

[Rosie Gray]

However, the Casperlet remains in the name of the parcel owner only. This has nothing to do with if the land is deeded or not.

My point exactly - use these records to determine citizenship.

“Government by the people for the people”

This is where we got into trouble some years back, with some people stacking the elections by paying for someone else's parcel purchase and tier so that they could be citizens and vote - people who in actual fact had no interest in being citizens or having anything to do with the CDS. They were there only to stack the votes. This is the very reason that citizenship is based on both now.

My mentioning the Casperlet and whether the land is deeded or not, was in response to your statement: "When the land is deeded the original owner is still the only one who can pay tier on the CDS system". This is not true.

[richie deschanel]

Whatever I say and whatever the sense of it I can see you are only interested in maintaining the status quo. Where there is a will there is a way. Clearly there is no will.

[Rosie Gray]

Absolutely I would love to see this issue solved to the benefit of everyone. I'm just pointing out how things actually function. If you can come up with a solution that is administratively functional and doesn't add a ton of work for 'someone', and will be both transparent and fair to everyone, I'd say let's do it!

[Awenbunny Lisle]

I've read the two topics Sudane posted at the beginning and found two solutions for at least our situation which no one suggested to us that I'm aware of.

Post by Rosie Gray » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:20 pm
What I could do to solve this issue, is combine the two parcels into one, and then subdivide a tiny corner separately that one of you could own to fulfill citizenship (but still pay the Hippo the same as you do now). I certainly don't mind doing that, but would like to know there is a chance that you'd stay there for a few months and that when the time comes to move that you'd notify me (or whoever is Chancellor) so that we can put it back the way it was, since it does add extra management/tracking/administration. What do you think?

We own a large parcel within the city limits with two "shops" at street level which we have decorated for visitors' entertainment rather than actual commercial use. It would be easy to find a spot to subdivide in this large space.

Post by Sudane Erato » Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:08 pm
Consider also, please... please... your options. Yes, you have both parcels on LA with the same owner, essential for the combining of prims. But if the "non-owner" on LA crosses over to CN and buys one of the "S" parcels (tiny parcels around the central forum) you have, for the cost of less than one US$/month, become a citizen of the CDS.

We will still need to own a prim parcel obviously as my owning a plot in another sim will still be of no use to us except as maintaining my citizenship even though we share the cost of the large lot our home is on. I'll look for these "S" parcels.

Thank you for pointing these further solutions out to us. We will be looking at subdividing a section of our current plot most likely. I will have to speak to Richie first. We discuss decisions.

I understand why simply being a "partner" cannot be taken as grounds for citizenship. I have seen SL partnerships and indeed marriages come and go overnight. Very wise decision on the part of the Administration to abolish it as a right to citizenship.

Thank you, everyone, for your time and efforts discussing this. I will speak to a scripting friend about the problem and see if he has any ideas, or knows who might be able to sort it out.

[Emilia Avindar]

My apologies for only just now finding time to review this dialog. I am working long hours on a seasonal project. Maybe I'm filing in the parts I don't know, but it seems to me that the concept for Citizen as used in CDS is based on the Roman (or Greek) model. In the Greek tradition, owning Land was the definition of a Citizen. Anyone may argue that the tradition represented a patriarchal system where sons inherited land and citizenship. Someone else will have to dig around and report how exceptions were applied for women who inherited or acquired Land. Regardless, Citizen = Landowner.

Citizens and Land Ownership is and should be transparent. However, the management of prims across a sim is not related to Citizenship, but is rather an ongoing lifestyle choice, based on how much you wish to develop your land. There are many social ways to share access and permissions, but in an Estate that has an overlay of self governance as it's ideal, with the single requirement of Citizenship, there should be no question of who is a Citizen. A citizen owns Land. To have more prim for a parcel, the same owner has to buy another parcel or a "prim parcel" in the same Region, not just the same Estate (CDS). Who pays is not transparent to the community, nor is it of particular concern to CDS oversight from a Land Management perspective. Perhaps anyone can pay your tier box, so a Partner certainly can.

If one wants to vote, one must be vested in the Land. A Citizen is an Individual, and is not joint and several, at least in regards to Citizenship.

If the cost of a small parcel is cost prohibitive, then the individual may perhaps seek to obtain a means to support the cost. Perhaps there could be more opportunity created for an economy, but it would have to be funded by Patrons.