Agenda item 2: Complexity

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Justice Soothsayer
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Agenda item 2: Complexity

Post by Justice Soothsayer »

[quote:mhs2ozt1]2. Complexity of the Judiciary
Is the system's complexity required to make it fair? Is the system too
complex to be understood and used by citizens? [/quote:mhs2ozt1]

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Beathan
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Post by Beathan »

This is a good topic -- but I want to sugget that we also discuss flexibility, either along with complexity or as a separate topic. The needs of an SL Justice system are unique and, in many ways, more various than RL systems. The most complicated rule might not work because our system might run up against RL incompatible cultural differences. In such case, the rule would implement the ideas from one culture to the exclusion of the other. I think that this should be avoided. It can be avoided by avoiding complexity -- provided that the simple solution we reach is flexible in its application. On this model -- simplicity is not antithetical to detailed rules applying in any given case, it is only antithetical to detailed rules applying in every given case. This is an important distinction.

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Pelanor Eldrich
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I feel ADR and Arbitration handle the flexibility

Post by Pelanor Eldrich »

We have choices. We can use the Soothsayer rules or the Burnham rules or Arbitration using Vale rules or some other code that both parties agree upon. The question is, when both parties cannot agree on the rules, what should be used by default?

Gywn's case with Ulrika demonstrates to me that a non-explicit simple procedure set is not the best way to go. Let's keep in mind that 90% of the Burnham code wouldn't be used in a given case, but rather everyone would have a shared understanding of what happens and when.

American law and procedures is a vast ocean of legal text. People still find a way to represent themselves in front of Judge Judy in small claims court.
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Re: I feel ADR and Arbitration handle the flexibility

Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

[quote="Pelanor Eldrich":82ixpkx6]
American law and procedures is a vast ocean of legal text. People still find a way to represent themselves in front of Judge Judy in small claims court.[/quote:82ixpkx6]

Something of a poor example, since technically the People's Court and other televised court programs of that kind are arbitration. ;)
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Re: I feel ADR and Arbitration handle the flexibility

Post by Ranma Tardis »

[quote="Aliasi Stonebender":1gt9fz96] Something of a poor example, since technically the People's Court and other televised court programs of that kind are arbitration. ;)[/quote:1gt9fz96]

I disagree; above is television in which both sides get paid something. Only question is how much. It is "entertainment" more than Justice.
As I said, I don’t have enough money to pay for one in Second life. Worse come worse, I will just let my small amount of money go. Sub it with working towards achieving my "higher" college degree. It is the "pragmatic" approach to an unsolvable problem.
I refuse to go into court without one having learned that lesson the hard way in real life. The court system is a good reason to limit ones financial exposure to a complex Judicial system that was forced upon me.
I was against Act as a member of CSDF, was against ACT as a non-aligned, am against the ACT today as a member of the DPU and will be against this ACT tomorrow!
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Re: I feel ADR and Arbitration handle the flexibility

Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

[quote="Ranma Tardis":3ob4iygw][quote="Aliasi Stonebender":3ob4iygw] Something of a poor example, since technically the People's Court and other televised court programs of that kind are arbitration. ;)[/quote:3ob4iygw]

I disagree; above is television in which both sides get paid something. Only question is how much. It is "entertainment" more than Justice.
[/quote:3ob4iygw]

Ranma, there's nothing to disagree about in that statement. I was merely referring to how those programs are not actual courts of law. Please do read carefully.
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Ranma Tardis

Re: I feel ADR and Arbitration handle the flexibility

Post by Ranma Tardis »

[quote="Aliasi Stonebender":3gk0fgq2][quote="Ranma Tardis":3gk0fgq2][quote="Aliasi Stonebender":3gk0fgq2] Something of a poor example, since technically the People's Court and other televised court programs of that kind are arbitration. ;)[/quote:3gk0fgq2]

I disagree; above is television in which both sides get paid something. Only question is how much. It is "entertainment" more than Justice.
[/quote:3gk0fgq2]

Ranma, there's nothing to disagree about in that statement. I was merely referring to how those programs are not actual courts of law. Please do read carefully.[/quote:3gk0fgq2]Whatever, the key is I am against the Judicary ACT, no matter how sugar coared it becomes!
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Re: I feel ADR and Arbitration handle the flexibility

Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Ranma Tardis":36qe7bmw]Whatever, the key is I am against the Judicary ACT, no matter how sugar coared it becomes![/quote:36qe7bmw]

What, precisely, do you think would constitute a fair judiciary?
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Ranma Tardis

Re: I feel ADR and Arbitration handle the flexibility

Post by Ranma Tardis »

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":15a4f35b][quote="Ranma Tardis":15a4f35b]Whatever, the key is I am against the Judicary ACT, no matter how sugar coared it becomes![/quote:15a4f35b]

What, precisely, do you think would constitute a fair judiciary?[/quote:15a4f35b]

This system is too complex and is only fair to lawyers who study the procedure. I dont have time for this nonsense. I will be lucky to be able to log on soon nevermind court.
Though I should not worry, the court has done nothing and it is reasonable to expect nothing from it. It is a sleek race car with no wheels on blocks. Its makes a lot of noise but goes nowhere.
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Re: I feel ADR and Arbitration handle the flexibility

Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Ranma Tardis":28f2oxsx]This system is too complex and is only fair to lawyers who study the procedure. I dont have time for this nonsense. I will be lucky to be able to log on soon nevermind court.[/quote:28f2oxsx]

Ranma, you're not answering my question. What, precisely, do you think would constitute a fair judiciary?
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Re: I feel ADR and Arbitration handle the flexibility

Post by Justice Soothsayer »

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":1xjw0axf][quote="Ranma Tardis":1xjw0axf]This system is too complex and is only fair to lawyers who study the procedure. I dont have time for this nonsense. I will be lucky to be able to log on soon nevermind court.[/quote:1xjw0axf]

Ranma, you're not answering my question. What, precisely, do you think would constitute a fair judiciary?[/quote:1xjw0axf]
What, precisely, do you not understand about Ranma's "only fair to lawyers who study the procedure"?
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Re: I feel ADR and Arbitration handle the flexibility

Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Justice Soothsayer":39lfukey]What, precisely, do you not understand about Ranma's "only fair to lawyers who study the procedure"?[/quote:39lfukey]

I did not write that I did not understand her reply: I wrote that it was not an answer to my question. An answer to my question is a description of a specific judicial system, not a criticism of our present one. My point is that any other judicial system that anybody cares to describe will have more flaws, and more serious flaws, than those that Ranma (or anyone else) can find with ours.
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Re: I feel ADR and Arbitration handle the flexibility

Post by Justice Soothsayer »

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":3okkongr][quote="Justice Soothsayer":3okkongr]What, precisely, do you not understand about Ranma's "only fair to lawyers who study the procedure"?[/quote:3okkongr]

I did not write that I did not understand her reply: I wrote that it was not an answer to my question. An answer to my question is a description of a specific judicial system, not a criticism of our present one. My point is that any other judicial system that anybody cares to describe will have more flaws, and more serious flaws, than those that Ranma (or anyone else) can find with ours.[/quote:3okkongr]
It is most unfortunate that you hold such a high and unmovable view of our judicial system. Pride of authorship is one thing, but belief that there can be no better system is just hubris.

To quote Judge Learned Hand:
[quote:3okkongr]In 1944, Judge Hand delivered an address at a patriotic rally in New York City's Central Park. The address, entitled The Spirit of Liberty, is one of Hand's most famous utterances. In it, he famously described the spirit of liberty as "the spirit which is not too sure that it is right." He also made the pragmatic observation that "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it. While it lies there it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it."[/quote:3okkongr]
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Re: I feel ADR and Arbitration handle the flexibility

Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Justice Soothsayer":327znynw]It is most unfortunate that you hold such a high and unmovable view of our judicial system. Pride of authorship is one thing, but belief that there can be no better system is just hubris.[/quote:327znynw]

This rather misses the whole point of what I was writing, which was that one can only criticise a choice for being a worse choice than another, specific choice (or one of a set of specific choices). If one cannot show that another specific choice would have been better, there is no basis for criticising the choice made. Ranma criticised our system for being "too complicated", yet failed to find an alternative system that was not "too complicated", yet was also not more flawed in other ways. The criticism must therefore fail unless and until she (or anyone else) is able to do so. As I have explained elsewhere, a system cannot avoid being complicated in operation, and any attempt to make it simple will only make it go badly wrong (and become more practically complicated in the process).
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Re: I feel ADR and Arbitration handle the flexibility

Post by Flyingroc Chung »

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":243h0hc4]My point is that any other judicial system that anybody cares to describe will have more flaws, and more serious flaws, than those that Ranma (or anyone else) can find with ours.[/quote:243h0hc4]
Are you really saying that your judicial system is as close to perfect as anyone can get?
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