Transcript - Meeting on the 12th Dec, 6 PM SLT

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Justice Soothsayer
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Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:14 pm

Transcript - Meeting on the 12th Dec, 6 PM SLT

Post by Justice Soothsayer »

[Editorial note: "You:" refers to Moon Adamant, who recorded this meeting; note also that the notecard distributed by Beathan Vale has been posted on this forum]

18:01] Jon Seattle: Hi Beathan
[18:02] Rudy Ruml: Hi Jon.
[18:02] You: hello again, everyone
[18:02] Jon Seattle: Hi Rudi
[18:02] Jon Seattle: Hi Moon
[18:02] Beathan Vale: Hi Moon
[18:02] You: asking gwyn if she has her new soapbox ready...
[18:02] Rudy Ruml: Nice seeing you again Moon.
[18:02] You: hi hi :)
[18:02] Rudy Ruml: I beat you to the beer this time.
[18:02] Jon Seattle: I will need to run out soon.. still at work.
[18:03] You: can we wait a few minutes for her?
[18:03] Beathan Vale: let Jon speak first -- if he has someting
[18:03] Jon Seattle: I can.
[18:03] Rudy Ruml: I have until 7 and have to leave myself.
[18:03] You: and the soapbox, which means that we don't have to go keep looking at the clock?
[18:04] Rudy Ruml: Do we sand on it. Moon?
[18:04] You: lol, i'll explain how that goes
[18:04] Rudy Ruml: OK.
[18:04] You: we will give you all a first round to speak uninterrupted
[18:05] You: 5 minutes (we had an issue in the previous session and we let Michel speak 10, as we were waiting the sopabox would kick him off or something :)
[18:06] You: you click teh soapbox to join the queue
[18:06] You: and it will call you in order
[18:06] You: then, after everyone has spoken, we will have another 2 minutes
[18:06] You: and then an open debate, which will be timed
[18:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn gave you The Soapbox.
[18:07] You: we will decide how much time then
[18:07] Ranma Tardis: I wish to talk last
[18:08] You: hmmm, does someone present have perms for Justice or can return teh old soapbox?
[18:08] Rudy Ruml: Hi Gwyn.
[18:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hello all
[18:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaah sure
[18:08] Jon Seattle: Hi Gwyn
[18:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi hi
[18:08] Jon Seattle: Oh, I had clicked on the old one.
[18:09] Ranma Tardis: hello
[18:09] The Soapbox: Time out is now set to 5 minutes
[18:09] Jon Seattle: sighs
[18:09] You: cool
[18:09] You: i would like to make one request
[18:09] The Soapbox: Jon Seattle has just requested a turn on the soapbox.
[18:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: let's hope it works, Moon, that software is even more untested that LL's Second Life ;)
[18:09] Jon Seattle: Gwyn, is there such a thing?
[18:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes.
[18:10] You: please do read the points in agenda, they are the things in discussion here
[18:10] You: agenda can be clicked from that poster on the wall
[18:11] The Soapbox: Ranma Tardis has just requested a turn on the soapbox.
[18:11] You: i will also ask your permission to record a chat
[18:11] You: starting now´~
[18:11] Ranma Tardis: ok no objection
[18:11] You: so, unless you hold any objection, a transcript shall be posted on the forums
[18:12] Jon Seattle: no objection
[18:12] Rudy Ruml: None.
[18:12] You: shall we start?
[18:12] Beathan Vale: Fine with me
[18:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: none either!
[18:12] Jon Seattle: will people be able to post and argue with the transcript? It seems to be that may be counter-productive.
[18:12] Jon Seattle: *me
[18:13] You: usual forum rules apply
[18:13] Patch's Funky Chat Logger - for Gwyn: Chat logging is on!
[18:13] You: thanks for the recording Gwyn :)
[18:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm
[18:13] You: everyone, touch teh box by the barrel and we will begin
[18:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I won't trust it much either, Moon
[18:14] You: lol, ok
[18:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that SL is having issues with their asset server +again+
[18:14] Patch's Funky Chat Logger - for Gwyn: Chat logging is off!
[18:14] You: er
[18:14] Jon Seattle: hm?
[18:14] Ranma Tardis: Rudy how about using yours?
[18:14] You: it just went off? :)
[18:14] Patch's Funky Chat Logger - for Gwyn: Chat logging is on!
[18:14] Rudy Ruml: My what?
[18:14] Ranma Tardis: recorder if that is ok
[18:15] Rudy Ruml: That is at the seminar house.
[18:15] You: well, i can take the record manually
[18:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes.
[18:15] You: and when Justice arrives, he has the recorder
[18:15] You: and will initialize it then
[18:15] You: ok, everyone
[18:15] You: Jon, then Ranma
[18:15] Ranma Tardis: a manual one will work
[18:16] Cocoa whispers: Coco make you feel better :)
[18:16] The Soapbox: Jon Seattle is on the soapbox now!
[18:16] Jon Seattle: Hi All,
[18:16] Jon Seattle: I will be very breif
[18:16] The Soapbox: Rudy Ruml has just requested a turn on the soapbox.
[18:17] Jon Seattle: I first want to say that I support the existance of a judicial system in CDS. It seems to me that it is vital if we are to protect our citizens
[18:18] Jon Seattle: I am gravely dissapointed and worried by what I have read in the forums concerning our current system
[18:19] Jon Seattle: first, it seems that the checks that should be in place to supervise and review the decisons of the judicial system do not and cannot function
[18:19] Jon Seattle: it is vitually important that we have those checks.
[18:19] Jon Seattle: In particular I am deeply concerned about the new role of the SC, which seems to have been stripped of much if its power
[18:20] Jon Seattle: to oversee the judiciary.
[18:20] Jon Seattle: Second, I am concerned about the uneven scale in a system that allows non-citizens to bring cases
[18:21] Jon Seattle: without the risk that citizens face in our courts. It seems to me that this may be seen as a kind of
[18:21] Jon Seattle: unilateral disarmenemnt against griefers if not corrected.
[18:21] You: 5 minutes past...
[18:21] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[18:22] Jon Seattle: Third, I remain worried that the system may be too costly as currently constructed.
[18:22] Jon Seattle: thanks.
[18:22] The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
[18:22] The Soapbox: It is Ranma Tardis's turn to speak, please touch the soapbox to invite them!
[18:22] You: thank you Jon :)
[18:22] You: Ranma, do take the soapbox :)
[18:22] The Soapbox: Ranma Tardis is on the soapbox now!
[18:22] Ranma Tardis: I am very worried about the direction of the cds
[18:23] Ranma Tardis: the new juducial system is not working and the judges have turned it into a jr debating club on definations
[18:23] Ranma Tardis: i see goverment as a medator for citizens to resole their disputes with each other
[18:24] Ranma Tardis: rather than becomong a dispute in it own right
[18:24] Ranma Tardis: the cds was founded to serve and protect our citizens
[18:24] Ranma Tardis: this protection is from the very goverment itself
[18:25] Ranma Tardis: we are turning away from the very founding concepts of our founders
[18:25] Ranma Tardis: the 3 way check is almost gone
[18:25] Ranma Tardis: the modern judicary is a furthur step to making one of the 3 legs of goverment too strong
[18:26] Ranma Tardis: to be in balence is the important concept of goverment, none of the legs overpowering and thus topiling the
[18:26] Ranma Tardis: body of goverment
[18:27] Ranma Tardis: we need also to have a fair system of apointing members of the sc
[18:27] Ranma Tardis: that too is broken as seen by having only 4 of the 9 positions filled
[18:28] You: Ranma, 5 minutes past...
[18:28] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[18:28] Ranma Tardis: we have a chance to correct our mistrakes and restore balance
[18:28] Ranma Tardis: thank you
[18:28] The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
[18:28] The Soapbox: It is Ranma Tardis's turn to speak, please touch the soapbox to invite them!
[18:28] You: thanks Ranma :)
[18:28] You: btw everyone
[18:28] You: and before Rudy steps in
[18:28] Beathan Vale: I;m ready after Rudy
[18:29] Justice Soothsayer: thanks, moon, for starting things off, sorry I couldn't be here earlier.
[18:29] You: we will make two rounds of 5 minutes, so you'll get the same chance as the people in previous meeting
[18:29] You: beathan, touch the box then, please
[18:29] Beathan Vale: kk
[18:29] The Soapbox: Beathan Vale has just requested a turn on the soapbox.
[18:29] Justice Soothsayer: plus we'll have two more open meetings tomorrow
[18:29] You: and Rudy, do take teh soapbox
[18:29] The Soapbox: Rudy Ruml is on the soapbox now!
[18:30] Rudy Ruml: Hi people. tudy reaches doen and picks up his aligaor skin briefvase and clcck click, reaches in and takes out 150 page file.
[18:31] Rudy Ruml: He oepns it, and hesiates for effect. then he lifts one of the files and says: Here is th Constitution ofo the United States 17 Pages 4, 528 words.
[18:32] Rudy Ruml: And her is the CDs contittuion, 33 pages, 8, 510 words. my good peopls is the Judicianry Bill--105 ages, 33627 words. that is rridiculous for 40-60 people.
[18:32] Rudy Ruml: thanks ou.
[18:32] The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
[18:32] The Soapbox: It is Ranma Tardis's turn to speak, please touch the soapbox to invite them!
[18:33] You: thanks Rudy
[18:33] Flyingroc Chung claps!
[18:33] You: hmmm, Bethan next, i believe
[18:33] The Soapbox: Justice Soothsayer has just requested a turn on the soapbox.
[18:33] You: beathan*
[18:33] Redaktisto Noble: Thanks R
[18:33] The Soapbox: Flyingroc Chung has just requested a turn on the soapbox.
[18:33] The Soapbox: Beathan Vale is on the soapbox now!
[18:33] Beathan Vale: Thank you Moon
[18:34] Beathan Vale: I have prepared some notes to assist people follow my remarks
[18:34] Beathan Vale: I will pass them out -- tell me if you don't get one
[18:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[18:34] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[18:34] You decline Beathan Jud Comm Testimony from Beathan Vale.
[18:35] Beathan Vale: The Judiciary Act, as pointed out by Publius, has already been tried two, maybe, three times and has been found wanting each time.
[18:35] Beathan Vale: It is too complicated.
[18:36] Beathan Vale: It is broken -- too broken to use on a trial run. I would not even launch a chimp into space on this one -- (sorry FR).
[18:36] Flyingroc Chung: :-)
[18:36] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[18:36] Beathan Vale: To give due respect to the Act, we must change it before we try it
[18:36] Beathan Vale: Otherwise we are dooming it to horrible failure.
[18:37] Beathan Vale: That is not good for us, forthe CDS,or for Ash (although false consciousness is persuasive)
[18:37] Beathan Vale: We should have a working judiciary -- that is a good idea - but trying to get a broken judiciary to work is a bad one
[18:37] Beathan Vale: We need to simplify the act.
[18:37] Beathan Vale: We are many people with many different backgrounds and ideas
[18:38] Beathan Vale: we need to make full use of all those ideas and backgrounds
[18:38] Beathan Vale: more - none of us knows what we are doing or how to do it
[18:38] You: Beathan, 5 minutes past...
[18:38] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[18:38] Beathan Vale: we might pretend otherwise
[18:38] Beathan Vale: kk
[18:38] The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
[18:38] The Soapbox: It is Ranma Tardis's turn to speak, please touch the soapbox to invite them!
[18:38] You: btw, i did get your notecard, tahnks
[18:38] You: and thanks for your comments :)
[18:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you indeed!
[18:39] You: hmmm, anyone else for the first round?
[18:39] Flyingroc Chung: may I
[18:39] Justice Soothsayer: me, moon
[18:39] You: ah, sorry Justice
[18:39] You: Justice and then FR
[18:39] The Soapbox: Justice Soothsayer is on the soapbox now!
[18:39] Justice Soothsayer: thanks, moon, and thanks for starting things off tonight
[18:39] Justice Soothsayer: first, a technical oint
[18:39] Justice Soothsayer: *point
[18:40] Justice Soothsayer: the recorder we had earlier had some sort of glitch, went out midway thru the meeting.
[18:40] Justice Soothsayer: gwyn has one going behind me, and I have re-rezzed my recorder on the table by FR.
[18:40] Justice Soothsayer: please touch it to indicate consent to recording.
[18:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn can't guarantee this recorder is operational, so I'd encourage you to use Justice's
[18:41] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[18:41] Justice Soothsayer: Second, I just want to say a thing or two in brief response to some comments made earlier
[18:41] Justice Soothsayer: about the so-called Soothsayer rules.
[18:41] Justice Soothsayer: The RA passed a set of new rules this week, because of much concern over the "first draft" rules.
[18:42] Justice Soothsayer: I woul dhave preferred to put a hold on the proposed draft rules, spend a lot of time thinking about revising them, but that woul dhave left us rule-less.
[18:42] Justice Soothsayer: I was convinced that we had to do something.
[18:42] Justice Soothsayer: So we now have the skeletal framework of some simple rules, which we can further amend upon thoughtful reflection.
[18:43] Justice Soothsayer: Anyone -- and this included the judiciary -- may make suggestions to the RA for amendments.
[18:43] Justice Soothsayer: I encourage all to do so. Meanwhile, parties in any pending cases (and we still don't have any officially, according to Publius)....
[18:44] Justice Soothsayer: can agree to as much bowing and other procedural niceties as needed.
[18:44] Justice Soothsayer: I think the RA's decision was a very rational response to the need to slow down the implementation of a system described accurately by others as "one that only a lawyer could love".
[18:45] Justice Soothsayer: Now that I have violated my rule to mainly listen and not speak, I'll shut up again. Thanks for listening!
[18:45] The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
[18:45] The Soapbox: It is Ranma Tardis's turn to speak, please touch the soapbox to invite them!
[18:45] You: Justice, 5 minutes
[18:45] You: oh ok, thanks :)
[18:45] Beathan Vale: hear hear
[18:45] You: FR?
[18:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: great, Justice!
[18:45] The Soapbox: Flyingroc Chung is on the soapbox now!
[18:46] Flyingroc Chung: hi folks.
[18:46] Flyingroc Chung: In the forums I had a "warm and fuzzy" test fopr the Judicial procedures
[18:46] Flyingroc Chung: it was a joke, but only sort of.
[18:46] Justice Soothsayer: well, you are a fuzzy sort of guy.
[18:46] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[18:47] Flyingroc Chung: Now, many will think that putting forth an argument based on gut feelings is not "proper"
[18:47] Beathan Vale: no!
[18:47] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[18:47] Flyingroc Chung: but many of you know, that the way we humans are wired...
[18:48] Flyingroc Chung: we should pay very close attentions to gut feelings
[18:48] Flyingroc Chung: so, I ask the commission to ask themselves
[18:48] Beathan Vale: hear hear
[18:48] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[18:48] Flyingroc Chung: is this JA nice? Am I proud to stand by it? Does it engender warm and fuzzy?
[18:48] Flyingroc Chung: Sadly, for me, the answer is no.
[18:49] Flyingroc Chung: thank you.
[18:49] The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
[18:49] The Soapbox: It is Ranma Tardis's turn to speak, please touch the soapbox to invite them!
[18:49] Beathan Vale: <---- Cheers
[18:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe FR — good point!
[18:49] You: thanks FR :)
[18:49] You: ok everyone, who else?
[18:49] You: or can we go into second round?
[18:49] Beathan Vale: no rebuttal required here
[18:50] Beathan Vale: We are mostly Americans ;-)
[18:50] Flyingroc Chung is not
[18:50] Moon Adamant is neither :)
[18:50] Ranma Tardis: am Okinawian-American
[18:50] Beathan Vale: ah -- but I could get you a job at the San Diego zoo
[18:50] Flyingroc Chung: maybe american is a state of mind :-P
[18:51] You: ok, we're digressing just a tad lol
[18:51] You: does anyone wish to take teh soapbox again then?
[18:51] Ranma Tardis: yes
[18:51] Rudy Ruml: Yes.
[18:51] Beathan Vale: no -- my notecard should do -- posted on the forums now
[18:51] You: ok, Ranma, do go
[18:51] You: and Rudy next
[18:51] The Soapbox: Ranma Tardis is on the soapbox now!
[18:52] Ranma Tardis: thank you for lisening to me
[18:52] Ranma Tardis: as I said before it is up to the goverment to keep the body of the country in balance
[18:53] Ranma Tardis: it is natyural for the 3 legs to struggle with each other and thus making a balance
[18:53] Ranma Tardis: a complex code of laws does not ensure fairness but only employment for lawylers
[18:54] Ranma Tardis: the code need to be simple fair and understandable to the majority of the citizens
[18:54] Ranma Tardis: in the rl courtroom the argument itself has become more imoportant than the truth
[18:55] Ranma Tardis: we need to have the truth more important than the process
[18:55] Ranma Tardis: also the goverment was made to protect the citizens
[18:55] The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
[18:55] The Soapbox: It is Ranma Tardis's turn to speak, please touch the soapbox to invite them!
[18:56] You: thanks Ranma
[18:56] You: Rudy?
[18:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you :)
[18:56] The Soapbox: Rudy Ruml is on the soapbox now!
[18:56] The Soapbox: Gwyneth Llewelyn has just requested a turn on the soapbox.
[18:56] Rudy Ruml: Hi again. I didntwant to go much beyond the numbers i gave you, and to let you reflect on them. they are damning.
[18:57] Rudy Ruml: The JA isa little more than 8 times in lenght of the US Constitution. 8 tiomes, and many of youor know the problems of interpretations and undersaind the 17 pages of the Constitution have created. The comparison also includes all amendments.
[18:58] Rudy Ruml: Noow, what we have her is something that is not only impractical, but also confusing in the variety of cluses and details that many will ifhg otver in the years to come.
[18:59] Rudy Ruml: As an example of would a good JA could be, the recently approved Code of Procddures is one. It is 2 pages and 394 words of clear prose.
[18:59] Rudy Ruml: I comment that to you as what should replace the JA.
[18:59] Rudy Ruml: thank you for this example of democracy in action.
[18:59] Rudy Ruml: Cheeers.
[18:59] The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
[18:59] The Soapbox: It is Ranma Tardis's turn to speak, please touch the soapbox to invite them!
[19:00] Beathan Vale: hear hear
[19:00] You: thanks Rudy :)
[19:00] You: Gwyn?
[19:00] Justice Soothsayer: thank you, rudy.
[19:00] The Soapbox: Gwyneth Llewelyn is on the soapbox now!
[19:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thanks Chair :)
[19:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or co-chair....
[19:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway,
[19:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: on the previous meeting earlier, I just got to say a few things
[19:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: since I really don't want to "influence" the process.
[19:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Before the Judiciary Act,
[19:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ´we did indeed have a Judiciary
[19:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we had no procedures at all.
[19:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: just a simple rule — "the SC will handle it"
[19:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then we had a case.
[19:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No procedures — but a case.
[19:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It took about 20 hours of in-world meetings,
[19:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and perhaps hmm
[19:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: at least as much as that sending mails back and forth
[19:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: just to devise quickly a set of simple rules
[19:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that allowed us to do a fair and impartial hearing
[19:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What was at stake?
[19:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, not much really
[19:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: about US$1000 or so
[19:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: because of a dispute with a former resident
[19:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: US$1000 is not "much"
[19:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but it happens to be about 1/4th of our income in the CDS
[19:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What happened? Because of the lack of the procedures,
[19:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: people today still claim this was a "kangaroo court"
[19:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we spent *AGES* of our time figuring out what to do,
[19:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: instead of cleanly and easily following a set of procedures.
[19:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well. I've learnt my lesson,
[19:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: next time, somoene will need to take those 40 or 50 hours of work
[19:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: to invent, on the spot, what procedures they like to have :)
[19:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not me :)
[19:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you :)
[19:04] The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
[19:04] The Soapbox: It is Ranma Tardis's turn to speak, please touch the soapbox to invite them!
[19:04] You: thanks Gwyn :)
[19:04] You: anyone else?
[19:04] The Soapbox: Redaktisto Noble has just requested a turn on the soapbox.
[19:05] You: oh, please go for it, redak
[19:05] The Soapbox: Redaktisto Noble is on the soapbox now!
[19:05] Flyingroc Chung: I wonder if the ulrika trial would have been easier under the ascroft procedures, rather than the soothsayer ones.
[19:05] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[19:05] Rudy Ruml: As much as I hate too, I must go offline. Thanks everybody
[19:05] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[19:05] Redaktisto Noble: Thanks, though it said 7 people ere ahead of me. :)
[19:05] Flyingroc Chung: oops, sorry
[19:05] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[19:05] Redaktisto Noble: Gwyn mentioned the previous trial in today's earlier session, and I have a few questions and thoughts.
[19:06] Redaktisto Noble: Had Ulrika been tried under the JA with the code of procedures, what would have been better?
[19:06] Redaktisto Noble: It would still have been a "kangaroo court".
[19:06] Redaktisto Noble: There would still be nothing we could to stop her taking down her buildings and moving away.
[19:07] Redaktisto Noble: And instead of being about Ulrika's wrongdoing, it would have been about the Judiciary system's flaws. And that is how I think our first difficult trial will be.
[19:07] Redaktisto Noble: We may get away with coaxing some into going along with it, but what will we do when a participant doesn't like it?
[19:07] Redaktisto Noble: Not much we can do, as far as I know.
[19:08] Redaktisto Noble: And that is why I repeat what I said earlier. We need a system that both parties agree is beneficial, not simply the complainants.
[19:08] Redaktisto Noble: I for one would rather abandon my land than face a trial under a complex system headed by someone I don't trust to treat me fairly.
[19:08] Redaktisto Noble: And what would a trial accomplish in that case?
[19:09] Redaktisto Noble: We must deal realistically with our limitations as an SL-based community and not a RL one.
[19:09] Redaktisto Noble: Thank you.
[19:09] The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
[19:09] The Soapbox: It is Ranma Tardis's turn to speak, please touch the soapbox to invite them!
[19:09] You: thank you Redak :)
[19:09] You: btw, the soapbox is not working all that well...
[19:10] You: anyone elese?
[19:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah well, I ust had 15 minutes to work on it...
[19:10] You: lol, thanks Gwynnie :)
[19:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *and* SL crashed
[19:10] Flyingroc Chung: why are we arguing about this when it's all gonna implode anyway? lol
[19:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe speaking of which, FR, look at your IMs, please.
[19:11] You: if nobody wants the soapbox anymore, shall we go into open debate?
[19:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yay!
[19:12] You: lol
[19:12] You: i am going then to remind everyone
[19:12] You: to consider that this commission will draft a doc to be presented to the RA
[19:14] You: and as on the previous meeting, we will have 30 minutes
[19:14] You: and Justice has crashed...
[19:14] You: so
[19:14] You: we will stop at 7.45
[19:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sounds reasonable :)
[19:14] Beathan Vale: I have concern -- I have posted and IMed requests to join commission but have not been invited to do so
[19:14] You: you can carry on, but no transcript will be taken
[19:15] You: oh, beathan
[19:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Justice seems to be back...
[19:15] Justice Soothsayer: sorry, hiccupped
[19:15] You: you just need to IM Claude to apply to it
[19:15] You: wb, Justice
[19:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: wb :)
[19:15] Beathan Vale: I have -- twice
[19:15] Flyingroc Chung: Claude may be a bit busy
[19:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, because of his wife...
[19:16] Beathan Vale: so I hear -- but I don't want to be excludd from the commission -- that will concern me
[19:16] You: of course we will consider your signing in
[19:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway, I'd like to *try* to understand something.
[19:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So far, I have seen three major arguments against the JA.
[19:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1) Ashcroft is in it.
[19:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2) It's too long, complex, and impossible to understand
[19:16] You: and no formal invitation is sent, you are part of the commission already since you IMed Claude :)
[19:17] Beathan Vale: 1 is not quite a fair characterization of the arg
[19:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 3) It's not validated democratically.
[19:17] Beathan Vale: kk
[19:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well beathan
[19:17] Beathan Vale: 3 is aqlso not quite right
[19:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm not being soft on words here.
[19:17] Justice Soothsayer: more like "ashcroft is running it all by himself"
[19:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd imagine that if someone else wrote it, the issue would never be raised.
[19:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's a minor detail, Justice :)
[19:17] Flyingroc Chung: If it was written the same way, you bet it would
[19:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ashcroft could simply be whispering things in someone's ear,
[19:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that seemed to be enough.
[19:18] Beathan Vale: well -- it would be a very different doc an institution if created by someone other than Ash
[19:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's arguable. yes
[19:18] Beathan Vale: I know that I would have gone is an entirely different direction
[19:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes — you even proposed one, if I remember correctly.
[19:18] Beathan Vale: on just about everything in the Act
[19:18] Justice Soothsayer: no, the point is, i think, that it has been a one-person creation.
[19:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, I get your point, Justice :)
[19:19] Justice Soothsayer: nothing against Ash personally, just that having a judiciary built by one person's hand inevitably leads to problems.
[19:19] Beathan Vale: yes -- it was created by Ash, implemented by Ash, controlled by Ash -- an seems to be poised to be permanently controlled by Ash
[19:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But almost everything in the CDS is done that way,
[19:19] Beathan Vale: that is a problem
[19:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: one person suggests something, others amend it.
[19:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just like RL.
[19:19] Beathan Vale: yes-- but Ash does not allow amendments
[19:19] Redaktisto Noble: Gwyn I'm interested in how you think the Ulrika trial may have been different under this system.
[19:19] Beathan Vale: he does not even allow criticism
[19:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh redak — it would have been *very* easy
[19:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it would not require arguing about what the procedures were,
[19:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or if they were being correctly followed
[19:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or impartial
[19:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: all taht would be on a step-by-step document
[19:20] Beathan Vale: well -- it certianly would hve involvd arguing about whether the procedures were being followd
[19:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: which is, indeed, the whole purpose of *having* a procedure for the judiciary
[19:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Naah beathan. Please :)
[19:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: have you EVER read the RA procedures, Beathan? ;)
[19:20] Beathan Vale: proceudre is always argued -- and the more complicated -- the more arguments -- its what I do most of the time in my job
[19:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But everybody still agrees that they are being followed.
[19:21] Beathan Vale: but that's not a lawsuit
[19:21] Flyingroc Chung: I have read the RA procedures that's easy to understand
[19:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pfft
[19:21] Flyingroc Chung: the JA ones... shudder
[19:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: They are, FR? Well, let me suggest that no one ever thought of putting the comittees in the procedures inpractice until now.
[19:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: People just "forgot" about them
[19:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and hmm
[19:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it's just one page :)
[19:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: approved almost 2 years ago
[19:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn watches as people start clicking on the page for the RA procedures
[19:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[19:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway.
[19:22] Flyingroc Chung: yes, that doesnt make the RA easy to understand, maybe we've just reached the populations size, and sophistication that committees are needed.
[19:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because these procedures were written by Pendari Lorentz,
[19:23] Flyingroc Chung: er doesnt make the RA procedures ahrd to understand
[19:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: nobody really mistrusted her
[19:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: who is a very charismatic, nice, intelligent, charming person
[19:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: although she was LRA, she was not seen as "controlling the process"
[19:23] Beathan Vale: it's not about the fact that the mind behind the Act is Ashcrofts-- its about what kind of mind it is -- it's labrynthine
[19:23] Ranma Tardis: we are still very small compaired to the city i was involved of about 100k
[19:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: she just presented the procedures, and the RA adopted them.
[19:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Beathan.
[19:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So the issue is the way one citizen *thinks*
[19:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: As said, if it were someone else — n o question would have been raised.
[19:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But... as it happens iRL
[19:24] Ranma Tardis: the procedures set were far less complex that set forth by Ashcroft
[19:24] Beathan Vale: but that thinking is being imposed on us by operation of law -- therefore it is a matter of policy
[19:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: when you need advice, and happen to ask an expert,
[19:24] Flyingroc Chung: I'm sorry, but if it were someone else and the document came out the same way
[19:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: you might get the kind of advicethat only an expert understands ;)
[19:24] Beathan Vale: and if the advice is suspect tyou get a second opinion
[19:24] Flyingroc Chung: I think people would still oppose it
[19:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, thus the comission, Beathan
[19:24] Leon Drinkwater: Are any of the procedures invented for the Ureka trial used today ?
[19:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Leon —they would be,
[19:25] Redaktisto Noble: As for your first point, Gwyn, I think personality does matter in a community our size. Nothing about our government would be anonymous; we live in close quarters here.
[19:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: if we had another case and no JA
[19:25] Ranma Tardis: can we aford to employ all of this "expert" help?
[19:25] Beathan Vale: Gwyn - yes -- so let's not prejudge the matter or defent the Act on the ground that it is Ash's and we need to respect Ash
[19:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
[19:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No no not at all, Beathan.
[19:25] Beathan Vale: we should considerthe Act as an Act -- not as a work of art
[19:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: My point is simple — I've argued, since day #1
[19:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that the way the CDS will work or not in teh future,
[19:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: is if we think on *institutions*
[19:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and not *people*
[19:26] Beathan Vale: yes -- I agree completely
[19:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So far, it has worked well thinking like that.
[19:26] Redaktisto Noble: To the extent that's possible, yes.
[19:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean — nobody is in the CDS who was a founder, with my single exception
[19:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we did not collapse!
[19:26] Beathan Vale: I have tried to address the Act and the judiciary as an institution -- only responding to Ash as Ash when he makes arguments
[19:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's mostly because, in *all* our acts,
[19:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we thoughht about institutions, rules, procedurs, etc
[19:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and that they should be independent of "people"
[19:27] Beathan Vale: but I keep feeling challeneged by the claim that the Act is Ash's baby andI am disrespectinghim by doubting its soundness
[19:27] Redaktisto Noble: For those American history scholars among us, I wonder how the Supreme Court may have been different if it had started with the group it did, or the Dept. of State with someone other than Jefferson, or the presidency with someone other than Washington.
[19:27] Redaktisto Noble: Precendents are important.
[19:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh Redak — I love Alternate History because of those interesting possibilities :)
[19:27] Beathan Vale: well -- it did actually -- the first chief justice was a nebbish
[19:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn was also a sciencie fiction writer ;)
[19:27] Ranma Tardis: yes me too
[19:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so I like the "what if?" approach.
[19:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What if it was someone else writing the JA?
[19:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What if it had just 1 page? (like, well, it had...)
[19:28] Beathan Vale: well -- we woulnd
[19:29] Redaktisto Noble: If someone else - even you Gwyn, wrote it and refused to change it in the face of reasonable and widespread concern, we would have a problem.
[19:29] Beathan Vale: then it could define itself in practice -- and the RA could respond if that practice went wrong
[19:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we would probably have saved poor Ashcroft hundreds of hours of work, and ourselves thousands of hours of discussion,
[19:29] Beathan Vale: Praxis is probably the best eay to develop law
[19:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we would be right now having 6 or 7 cases judged,
[19:29] Beathan Vale: yes
[19:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and very likely even a third sim in planning
[19:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Who knows — we might even have a Winter Holiday!
[19:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[19:29] Beathan Vale: and we would be getting the same press -- better press even - I know the ABA reporter did not like Ash at all
[19:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: instead — what we have is stubborness
[19:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, I can't say that
[19:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but yes, it's another "what if?" possibility.
[19:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, but that's not what we have.
[19:30] Flyingroc Chung: Gwyn, are you arguing that we impeach Ash?
[19:30] Redaktisto Noble: Jon Seattle asked an important question earlier - how much of our collective and individual resources need to go into this system to make it work? Is it worth it?
[19:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We have something which is viewed as being not necessarily "long" or "complex"
[19:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: because neither are strong arguments
[19:30] Redaktisto Noble: I am also personally concerned about being sued under ths system and not getting a fair trial.
[19:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but something that only Ash understands.
[19:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Redak, that perception
[19:31] Leon Drinkwater: Someone had to give ash enough rope to thourly entangle himself eventualy
[19:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: comes from not trusting the system
[19:31] Beathan Vale: yes -- and he thinks it is clear -- and he is the judge -- there is nothing worse than a confusing law that a judge thinks is clear
[19:31] Beathan Vale: any judge -- not just Ash
[19:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: to be valid it in its impartiality and fairness
[19:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree.
[19:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: However,
[19:31] Redaktisto Noble: Not just the system, but the personality at the center of it, Gwyn.
[19:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: when we asked for more Judges at that time,
[19:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: nobopdy wanted to apply :)
[19:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes Redak — I got your npoint.
[19:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's always the same one.
[19:32] Beathan Vale: well -- because Ash wanted us to do something that only a baby Ash could do
[19:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, beathan :)
[19:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or a "trained monkey" (apologies to FR again)
[19:32] Flyingroc Chung: Good think FR is not a monkey.
[19:32] Beathan Vale: I was planning to apply -- and wanted to -- and spent more then sevenhours on the app before I decided that it was entirely wrongheaded
[19:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[19:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn nods
[19:32] Beathan Vale: ape -- not monkey
[19:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes yes :)
[19:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now
[19:33] notetaker 2.0.1: Script run-time error
[19:33] notetaker 2.0.1: Stack-Heap Collision
[19:33] Justice Soothsayer: uhoh
[19:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: here comes another terrible thought:
[19:33] Beathan Vale: and when I expressed my concerns about the app - I was told that I was being stupid -- and worse dooming the CDS to mediocrity
[19:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: imagine that the JA were not written by Ashcroft,
[19:33] notetaker 2.0.1: Script run-time error
[19:33] notetaker 2.0.1: Stack-Heap Collision
[19:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but by Ulrika :)
[19:33] Beathan Vale: or ... hitler?
[19:33] Flyingroc Chung: Hm, actually
[19:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Horrible thought, hmm? :)
[19:33] Beathan Vale: ;-)
[19:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well...
[19:34] Flyingroc Chung: I think ulrika might have some creative and interesting ideas
[19:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ironically,
[19:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we have lived quite well for two years
[19:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: with a document that was co-authored by Ulrika.
[19:34] Beathan Vale: yes -- its not about authorship -- its about the words
[19:34] notetaker 2.0.1: Script run-time error
[19:34] notetaker 2.0.1: Stack-Heap Collision
[19:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's because the document has intrinsic worth, beyond the personality behind it.
[19:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And believe me —
[19:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we discussed it, 20 people, over ten weeks.
[19:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We just had to stop discussing it,
[19:35] Beathan Vale: yes -- but if the document does not have the worth -- it does not have the worht regardless of the personality behind it
[19:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: because we needed to build this place :)
[19:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Beathan.
[19:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That was my point.
[19:35] Beathan Vale: lol -- for people who completey agree with each other, we seem to disagree a lot ;-)
[19:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1) — Ashcroft is behind everything, ok,
[19:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but....
[19:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: does the document have or not intrinsic value?
[19:36] Redaktisto Noble: Not much.
[19:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is, I believe, more important for the comission to decide.
[19:36] Beathan Vale: well -- it is an example of what to avoid in drafting a statute -- kind of a case study
[19:36] Redaktisto Noble: They are interesting, but not very practical for our needs.
[19:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I would argue that the document has as much worth as what the people give it,
[19:37] You: indeed, i will remind everyone again of the agenda points (feels is bugging a bit with that :)
[19:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and if they don't, it's worthless.
[19:37] Beathan Vale: too right Gwyn
[19:37] Flyingroc Chung: hello claude
[19:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes — but that doesn't have anything to do with the *personality* of who wrote it.
[19:37] You: hi Claude
[19:37] Justice Soothsayer: Claude, you can try out the soapbox if you like
[19:38] You: btw everyone, less than 8 minutes to go
[19:38] Redaktisto Noble: So what are you saying Gwyn?
[19:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm saying that most of the arguments being raised would fall under those three categories,
[19:38] Flyingroc Chung: well, maybe I have a practical question to ask: who els eis interested in creating a judiciary system?
[19:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but the Comission is not here to validate Ashcroft as a person
[19:38] Beathan Vale: well -- I think workability is a fourth quesiton
[19:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, there are many people, FR
[19:38] Justice Soothsayer: i am too, i think it is valuable for us to have one
[19:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah well Beathan,
[19:39] You: most surely not
[19:39] Beathan Vale: also -- the Act does not say what people think it says -- is a fifth
[19:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that's something else. Jon argued earlier today, "how much time would we spend on the JA"?
[19:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
[19:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that's an issue of education, interpretation, etc
[19:39] Leon Drinkwater: the personality faters because it determins if the JA will be simolified in practice or embroidered more
[19:39] Flyingroc Chung: well, I mean if it is something people find satisfying to do, then as much time as it needs.
[19:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Systems get more complex over time — natural law,or there wouldn't be even life in this Universe :)
[19:40] Beathan Vale: Gwyn-- yes -- but there is soemthig wrong with having an author of a statuteinterpret it
[19:40] Beathan Vale: ambiguities are lost and ignored -- rather than fixed -- that way
[19:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes — now that'one o my *biggest* issues, Beathan!
[19:40] Beathan Vale: and that is a fair point about Ashcroft's personal involvement
[19:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That is exactly something that the COmission should verify, validate, or correct (or propose to correct)
[19:40] Beathan Vale: yes -- exactly
[19:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ie. who does, indeed, interpret the JA, when there are doubts?
[19:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Where is the appeal?
[19:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If a citizen disagrees with the way the law is applied, where will the case be judged next?
[19:41] Justice Soothsayer: interestingly, gwyn, i think i can answer that one
[19:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: from "wrong interpretation on the law"
[19:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not at the SC. The SC cannot listen appeals
[19:42] Flyingroc Chung: The Sc can listen to constitutional appeals
[19:42] Flyingroc Chung: The Sc can listen to constitutional appeals
[19:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, the SC is strictly *forbidden* by the Act to interpret that
[19:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just *constitutional* ones,
[19:42] Beathan Vale: yet -- I mean to change that -- have proposed legislation
[19:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: not "wrongly applied laws"
[19:42] Beathan Vale: also - Gwyn -- I disagree with your interp of the JA on that point
[19:42] Flyingroc Chung: well, is it good for the SC to be the final arbiter of that?
[19:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The JA establishes loosely "higher and lower courts".... to be defined... in the future....
[19:42] You: 3 minutes
[19:42] Beathan Vale: I think the JA empowers the SC as a court to issue any order to decide a citizen dispute or a constitutional issue
[19:43] Beathan Vale: it does so explicitly
[19:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm
[19:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, I'll take your word on it, since it'll take me more than 3 minutes to look it up, lol
[19:43] Flyingroc Chung: Shouldn't we let those with "legal understanding" be the ones to interpret the law?
[19:43] Justice Soothsayer: law may be too important to be left to the lawyers, FR
[19:43] Beathan Vale: well - FR -- Ash Oni andI all disagree with each other on this
[19:43] Beathan Vale: too right
[19:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Justice :)
[19:44] Beathan Vale: first, let's kill all the lawyers
[19:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ROFL
[19:44] Beathan Vale: second, let's ban small beers
[19:44] Beathan Vale: Big beers only
[19:44] You: big vodka? :)
[19:44] Beathan Vale: why drink water when you can drink good water, eh?
[19:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway, the only thing I would like to present to the comission is that we should worry more about tyhe text, who applies it, who interprets it, how to appeal on these interpretations 8and to whom),
[19:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and less on the personality of the person who wrote it.
[19:45] You: ok...
[19:45] You: 30 minutes past
[19:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, more tomorrow :)
[19:45] Redaktisto Noble: What about having the CDS license independent judiciaries to run as businesses and by selection of their clients, after ensuring that the systems in place are just...then Ash could test out his system without us having to be under it unless we wanted to.
[19:46] Flyingroc Chung: dangit I thought the meeting would end on thoughts of beer and vodka
[19:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... unless Ll definitely shuts down the grid for holidays :D
[19:46] You: lol FR
[19:46] Beathan Vale: ok -- but there is an awful lot of that personality in the text -- can we object to it as a textual matter?
[19:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Redak, right now, people are free to adopt the procedures they like, under the new Code of Procedures — so long as both parties agree
[19:47] Justice Soothsayer: we need to let our de facto recorder - Moon - get a little rest before tomorrow's 1 pm session in CN
[19:47] Beathan Vale: hear hear -- hooray --
[19:47] You: yes lol
[19:47] Beathan Vale: Peace and love and reason prevailing
[19:47] You: thanks :)
[19:47] Justice Soothsayer: so let's call this session officially over
[19:47] Flyingroc Chung: seriously thought
[19:47] Redaktisto Noble: So what if one party wants courts and another wants arbitration with another "judge"?
[19:47] Justice Soothsayer: though everyone is free to continue off the record conversations
[19:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you all for coming and participating actively!
[19:47] Flyingroc Chung: if someone brought a case against me right now
[19:47] Justice Soothsayer: as ad hominem as you want, lol
[19:47] Flyingroc Chung: I'd leave
[19:47] You: indeed, i will stop recording now, though
Dexter Leopold
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Post by Dexter Leopold »

I want to thank all participants, on a personal level, for their participation in both of tonight's meetings. I also thank you for posting the transcripts. I am sorry I was unable to attend but look forward to at future meetings.

For some reason, I found that particular setting for debate and discussion to be a little more refreshing, and provided me with a little more hope than what I have seen and participated in on the forums. I am wondering if the "slower" atmosphere of realtime SL chatting was a contributing factor to this. I get the impression at times that in the forums, we have the ability to read through someone's posting as quickly as our eyes will work, and often don't take the time to really read and analyze another's argument or position. Each "side" puts together and posits valid points on the forums. However, if we read through someone's post at the natural rate an RL person can, we can find ourselves identifying their points/arguments, and immediately we are triggered into the mode of attacking that argument based on our own backgrounds and biases (with respect to this issue). While we may take the time to identify their argument, I question if we always take the time to see it from their perspective, and where they are coming from. I feel at times that our unwillingness to "walk that mile in another's shoes" makes it difficult to really understand the "other's" point of view. I fear that compromise cannot be reached without that.

Or maybe I'm just full of it.

Anyway, silly me just posted this on the forum, but I'm always willing to lend a pair of my shoes to any takers : )

Thanks again.
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Post by Beathan »

Dexter --

I wear 8 1/2 wides.

Let's keep things simple enough to be fair, substantive enough to be effective, and insightful enough to be good.
Dexter Leopold
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Post by Dexter Leopold »


I'm a 9 1/2 narrow, so shall we say a 9 regular? Now that's compromise!!!! lol
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Post by Justice Soothsayer »

[quote="Dexter Leopold":3gvu2fev]Beathan,

I'm a 9 1/2 narrow, so shall we say a 9 regular? Now that's compromise!!!! lol[/quote:3gvu2fev]
Looks like a good compromise, in that you will both be equally uncomfortable - Beathan in the width, and Dexter in the length.

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