Justice Soothsayer: We now have a quorum, so let us begin.
Arria Perreault: Hi Justice
Arria Perreault: ok
Justice Soothsayer: The agenda is at http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 995#p11995
Arria Perreault: Hi everyone
Justice Soothsayer: and at notecards I have distributed.
Justice Soothsayer: Please click on the recording device on the table to indicate consent.
Danton Sideways has indicated consent to be recorded.
Arria Perreault has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer: Are there any changes to the proposed agenda?
Jamie Palisades has indicated consent to be recorded.
Rubaiyat Shatner: no
Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.
Arria Perreault: not for me
Justice Soothsayer: OK, next is I.c. Anyone want to sign up to comment on items on the agenda?
Jamie Palisades: Justice, I am the planned presenter on items IIa and IIIa, and would ike to comment briefly on itemsd IId and IIf. Thanks.
Justice Soothsayer: Noted, Jamie.
Justice Soothsayer: I.d. Any comments on prior minutes?
Justice Soothsayer: Ah, now we've momentarily lost Pip.
Justice Soothsayer: We'll have to skip his swearing-in, and instead swear at him!
Justice Soothsayer: Moving on to I.f., future meeting times and places: Arria has offered the Monastery as a meeting place. Can we try that at the next meeting?
Justice Soothsayer: I think the chapel may be more "camera-friendly"
Arria Perreault: I can organize the meeting in the Chapel
Jamie Palisades: stice, a thought: note the comments from the last time RA tried that meeting room. Not a place for a lot of spectators.
Arria Perreault: Chapel is bigger, Jamie
Arria Perreault: I will add chairs
Jamie Palisades nods: Chapel or another room in the Monastery might be a smart choice.
Justice Soothsayer: I will ask our absent members via email if a later time in the day would be helpful.
Arria Perreault: if you prefer the Library, I can also organize the meeting there
Arria Perreault: same size
Justice Soothsayer: We seem to have trouble assembling and keeping a qurorum on Sunday at 9 am, even though that was everyone's stated preferred time.
Arria Perreault: for me later, is OK
Rubaiyat Shatner: well I had stated that sunday at 9am was usually okay, but not always
Justice Soothsayer: I also want to propose a procedure for voting and discussion on matters raised when there is no qurorum.
Justice Soothsayer: I will post it for comments on the forum.
Justice Soothsayer: 1. In the event that a meeting of the RA lacks a quorum, bills introduced at the meeting and other RA actions (e.g. confirmation of appointments) may be considered by the following procedure:
a. Each bill or other action shall be open for discussion by members of the RA on the RA Discussion forum, on a separate thread for each action, for 72 hours.
b. Each bill or other action shall be open for discussion by the public on the Legislative Discussion forum, on a separate thread for each action, for 72 hours.
c. During the course of the 72 hour debate period, bills may be amended by a majority of RA members indicating their support of a proposed amendment.
d. Directly following the 72 hour debate period, members of the RA shall record on the RA Discussion forum their votes on the bill or other action (as amended, if any amendments were adopted).
2. Constitutional amendments may not be considered by this procedure.
Justice Soothsayer: Not suggesting we debate or discuss this now, just giving you a heads up that I will propose this amendment to our rules.
Arria Perreault: good ideas
Arria Perreault: I am testing a procedure of online vote for the Faculty
Rubaiyat Shatner: okay I would not oppose it for administrative porpoises but am not certain about legislation
Jamie Palisades raises his hand
Jon Seattle: Sounds very good .. may want to add a provision allowing friendly amendments
Justice Soothsayer: Jamie?
Jamie Palisades: Interesting - perhaps that can itself go to "Legislative DIscussion" for comment. Let me just mention, for calendar planning, the Guild meetings currently itting at - hm 11 am SLT Sunday? -- and this resource: the publicly-subscribable CDS Google Calendar named "Confederation of Democratic Simulators SL".
Jamie Palisades: 
(
Justice Soothsayer: Yes, I'll post my proposal on the forums for public discussion.
Justice Soothsayer: Meanwhile...
Arria Perreault: Maybe we should post each bill on forum first for consultation
Arria Perreault: then RA discussion
Arria Perreault: the RA vote
Justice Soothsayer: Intersting idea, Arria, requiring public comment period for proposed legislation.
Arria Perreault: the advantage is that we know the position of citizen or groups of citizen
Arria Perreault: like NGO
Rubaiyat Shatner: that too seems healthy
Justice Soothsayer: I think the RA has usually, but not always, worked that way, with legislation posted in advance.
Rubaiyat Shatner: so, since I am a freshman here, how often does the RA have trouble meeting quorum?
Arria Perreault: yes, I think. Good to set it as principle
Justice Soothsayer: I've seen it happen a few times, Rubaiyat, in the last session occasionally and more often in the past.
Jamie Palisades smiles and points to forums
Arria Perreault: wb Pip:-)
Pip Torok: crashed but back
Justice Soothsayer: With our international citizens spread across time zones, it is sometimes hard to get all schedules coordinated at the same time.
Rubaiyat Shatner: @Jamie sifting through the forums is not what I had in mind : )
Arria Perreault: Hi FR
Justice Soothsayer: So, now that Pip is back, we can proceed to making him official!
Flyingroc Chung: hi
Jamie Palisades: @Rubi - heh - topic for another day
Rubaiyat Shatner: he 'roc
Justice Soothsayer: Pip, please repeat after me...
Justice Soothsayer: I, [YOUR NAME], having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
Jon Seattle: Hi FR
Flyingroc Chung has indicated consent to be recorded.
Pip Torok: I Pip Torok having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic Simulations
Pip Torok: do sormly swear that I weill faithfully discharge my duties
Pip Torok: as such to the best of my ability
Pip Torok: that i will bear true faith and allegiance
Pip Torok: to ther Confederation of Democratic Simulators
Pip Torok: anf that I will preserve protect and defend
Pip Torok: the Constitution of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators
Justice Soothsayer cheers for Pip. Pip, Pip, Hooray!
Jamie Palisades smiles and applauds
Pip Torok: thank you
Jon Seattle: yay Pip!
Arria Perreault: congratulations
Jamie Palisades: and that was a *horrid* pun Mr LRA
Arria Perreault: and welcome to the RA
Pip Torok: thanks for past and future siupport!
Jamie Palisades: ... fits right in ..
Rubaiyat Shatner: gratz pip, someone was waiting to say that pip pip thing too...
Pip Torok: i knew it!!!!
Justice Soothsayer: OK, on to Old business.
Danton Sideways: Yes, gratz
Justice Soothsayer: Item II a., Commission on Corporate Structure. Jamie, anything to report?
Pip Torok: tks Danton
Danton Sideways: Did we do consent items?
Justice Soothsayer: I didn't have any consent items, Danton.
Danton Sideways: Oh
Justice Soothsayer: Sorry, thought I had mentioned that earlier.
Danton Sideways:
Justice Soothsayer: Jamie, you have the floor.
Jamie Palisades: Ah OK item 2 then
Jamie Palisades: Our first Corporate COmmission meeting occured with good participation and a long outline of issues on 26 July. All relevant matters are posted in the "Legislative Discussion" board of the CDS forums.
Jamie Palisades: I thikn it;s fair to say that we have two sets of concerns -- one being whetehr o formal legal structure for control of CDS is appropriate or needed - and the other being whether the underlying issues that gave rise to that question --
Jamie Palisades: -- stability, continuity of ownership, and risks of single points of failure -- cna be addressed better in other ways.
Jamie Palisades: Perhaps so -- but these are being robustly debated 
Jamie Palisades: I am called a secodn meeting, for next Sunday 7 Sept at 8 am SLT
Jamie Palisades: the thought being that we should move it around as a couresty to global participation
Jamie Palisades: but really we will get strafed -- er I mean helpful public comments -- in the forums in any case
Justice Soothsayer: hehe
Jamie Palisades: I'd say two more meetings will permit us to report back to you within 4-5 weeks.
Jamie Palisades: Questions?
Justice Soothsayer: You answered mine about timetables.
Justice Soothsayer: Anyone else?
Justice Soothsayer: OK, hearing none, thanks, Jamie.
Justice Soothsayer: Item II.b. is a report from the Guild, but Moon who usually does that could not be here this morning.
Justice Soothsayer: I will note that LA is now open!
Jon Seattle: yay!
Arria Perreault: great !
Justice Soothsayer: The photos from the ceremony were wonderful!
Danton Sideways: yes great ceremony
Jamie Palisades: Justice?
Justice Soothsayer: Jamie?
Jamie Palisades: In lieu of Moon's presence pehaps I should mention what happens next from a government point of view
Justice Soothsayer: sure, go ahead.
Jamie Palisades raises and eyebrow
Jamie Palisades: ok
Jamie Palisades: 1. LA amenities have bene built and delivered by the Guild. 2. I am charged with inspecting and accepting them 3. I will seek input from the BAC (which is being appointed this month - one member already, another 1 or 2 to come).
Jamie Palisades: 4. I will post prelim conclusions and seek public comment briefly. 5. Contributing artisans also are rquired to agree to our "ownership/replacement" terms under a model Guild agreement.
Jamie Palisades: 6. Once they have, and assuming acceptable evaluation of the builds, I will authorize their payment according to the posted budget already established by the Guild and prior chancellor.
Jamie Palisades: That's it.
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks, Jamie. Any questions from anyone?
Danton Sideways: what is BAC?
Jamie Palisades: Building Advisory Committee - a part of the Guild reorg
Arria Perreault: of the Faculty
Danton Sideways: Thanks
Jamie Palisades: which will come up whe nArria brings ttheir charter amendments for approval I think
Arria Perreault: I think that Guild charter is already approved (Faculty and Board together)
Justice Soothsayer: there may be amendments for the RA to approve, though.
Arria Perreault: not that I know (I speak for Faculty only)
Moon Adamant: hello all!
Justice Soothsayer: Hi Moon!
Arria Perreault: Hi Moon
Justice Soothsayer: We just got to your agenda item: report from Guild.
Pip Torok: hi Moon ..
Moon Adamant: sorry i am late
Moon Adamant has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jamie Palisades: how and when the RA approved NGO charters is, if I may say, one of those little carpentry jobs on which the RA needs to work . See the chat that we are having about NGOs on the Forum here -
6. Once they have, and assuming acceptable evaluation of the builds, I will authorize their payment according to the posted budget already established by the Guild and prior chancellor.
Jamie Palisades: oops bad paste 0 hang on -
Jamie Palisades: "How NGOs work (maybe)" under "Business. commeree.."
Justice Soothsayer: Moon, we were just discussing whether there are amendments to the Guild Charter that must come before the RA.
Moon Adamant: atm, none that i know of, unless Faculty wants to propose amendments
Moon Adamant: in that case, those amendments must be firstly presented to the Board, and then to RA
Arria Perreault: no amendment in the Faculty
Jon Seattle: yes if I remember, the RA did pass the large recient revision of the Guild charter
Moon Adamant: we remind the RA that we did a revision of the charter earlier this year
Jamie Palisades: well then
Justice Soothsayer: So, Moon, anything else you need to add on behalf of the Guild? We've already noted the opening of LA and Jamie briefed us on the procedures.
Moon Adamant: well, the only thing i had to annouce was justly so that LA is completed and ready for inspection
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks, Moon.
Justice Soothsayer: Let's move on.
Danton Sideways: Can i ask a question?
Justice Soothsayer: Only if it is very brief, Danton, we have alot to get to.
Danton Sideways: What is the "large recipient" business?
Danton Sideways: oh, recent nN
Jamie Palisades looks querulously
Danton Sideways: Nevermind
Justice Soothsayer: OK, moving on...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hello all!
Justice Soothsayer: Gwyn arrives just in time!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Justice Soothsayer: The next item on the agenda is II.c. Electoral Commission.
Rubaiyat Shatner: moring/evening Gwyn
Arria Perreault: Hi Gwyn
Jon Seattle: Hi Gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn *waves and apologises*
Jon Seattle: Just in time..
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thanks for the agenda, Justice!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh...? For what exactly?
Justice Soothsayer: "Electoral Commission: update"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh nice...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... do I have the floor right now?m
Justice Soothsayer notes commission transcripts on the forums
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, we have had 3 meetings of the estimated 7
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Each has been focusing on one single topic.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And at each session, we try to review what to recommend to the RA. A few things have emerged as concrete examples...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: At the last session, I hope that we'll have a list of topics that the commission feels that the RA should address through bills
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I should say, however, that the attendence has been not overwhelmingly great ? and the discussion on the forums pretty much zero.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I wonder if there is, after all, so much interest in changing the election system
Gwyneth Llewelyn: However, it might just be that the first topics were rather consensual... I don't know
Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: By October we should have a document 
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's all!....
Justice Soothsayer: OK, comments, questions?
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks, Gwyn.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: My pleasure
Gwyneth Llewelyn: BTW, next Thursday I'll addres the Commission on Ethics (blah blah long name here which I always forget)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is "inherited" from the last term ? a review of the many bills proposing a Code of Conduct for RA members.
Jamie Palisades stage whispers - and conflict of interest
Jamie Palisades: heh heh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's it, jamie, thanks
Justice Soothsayer: I think we're all just waiting to see what develops with these commissions in the form of recommendations.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, I encrouage citizens to participate *now* and not complain about it later
Justice Soothsayer: I sort of hope they will do both!
Danton Sideways: The complainers all seem to have gone away
Pip Torok: hear hear
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Interesting, Danton
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We're scaring them off!
Danton Sideways: I miss them a bit
Danton Sideways: It was exciting
Justice Soothsayer: Ok, folks, moving on...
Jon Seattle perfers peace and quiet
Jamie Palisades smiles and thinks about monocultures
Gwyneth Llewelyn misses them a lot! ... nothing is more boring than a meeting where most people agree with each other lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry ? I'll hush now!
Justice Soothsayer: Can we move on to the next item, Nomination of MT for SC?
Arria Perreault: ok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: fine
Justice Soothsayer: I haven't heard from MT via email or otherwise that he wasn't coming today; at our last meeting we agreed that we would consider his nomination today.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, I was going to ask that....
Justice Soothsayer: I'm a little disappointed, as I had several questions I wanted to pose, as I suspect others might as well.
Justice Soothsayer: I do want to note that Bells requested a 7-day vote, so we won't make a final decision today.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I had a few, yes...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah ok.
Justice Soothsayer: Though I will also note that we *MUST* make a final decision by 12 September.
Justice Soothsayer: Any discussion?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well hmm
Arria Perreault: we have quorum. Why should we wait for Bells?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I feel it's unfair to discuss a candidate to the SC without having him present to answer any questions, or make a stand, a defense of honour, etc
Rubaiyat Shatner: I want to hear from him as well
Justice Soothsayer: Arria, Bells can vote via email per her request
Pip Torok: point of information: does "nomination of" involve recs about the actual appointment or just on his/her nomination?
Moon Adamant: myself, as audience, would like to hear the candidate myself ...
Justice Soothsayer: The Constitution says we vote to ratify candidates to the SC.
Pip Torok: so would I
Justice Soothsayer: We can *ask* them to appear to answer questions, but can't force 'em to do so.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You're right.
Justice Soothsayer: But we only have 30 days to take a vote.
Moon Adamant: though one would think it would be in their best interest, no?
Jamie Palisades raises his hand on a procedure point
Justice Soothsayer: Jamie?
Pip Torok: can this meeting minute an opinion on the absence?
Jamie Palisades: WHile I support the nomination, I note that it will take effect UNLESS the RA acts ... and ...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, I guess so, Pip... one thing is "tradition", the other is "passing a vote of confidence"
Jamie Palisades: ... we certainly dfid invite them to come chat with us last term
Jamie Palisades: ... sort of a momento mori
Jamie Palisades: ... rememebr the RAs exists, before your apotheosis
Justice Soothsayer: On procedure:
Patroklus Murakami has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer: Bells exercized her right to request a 7-day vote on this matter; the rest of us could also vote via postings on the forums if we choose to do so; I think we should post any questions we have for MT on the forums, let him respond, and vote via the forums within the next 7 days.
Justice Soothsayer: Though I'm unhappy he didn't show today.
Flyingroc Chung: Someone rfresh my memory on the current SC's composition?
Arria Perreault: well. in my point of view, it's very different to vote separetely then together after discussion
Flyingroc Chung: claude, dnate, and pel?
Arria Perreault: and cindy
Moon Adamant: Cindy too
Jamie Palisades nods - they lost a few to attrition
Flyingroc Chung: ah, ok
Justice Soothsayer: And lost others due to election to the RA!
Justice Soothsayer: So, what's your pleasure? Discuss the nomination now, or asynchronously via the forums?
Pip Torok: i say now
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd discuss it now...
Arria Perreault: for me now
Justice Soothsayer: OK, floor is now open for discussion of the nomination of MT for SC.
Justice Soothsayer: RA members first, please.
Pip Torok: muy impression i that MT is only interested in one decision that the SC made .. and has no other interest (tho I may be wrong)
Moon Adamant raises her hand, signalling that she wants to speak afetr the RA members
Jamie Palisades smiles, having already queued himself.
Arria Perreault: I think that being in the SC supposes a deep knowledge of legislation and some ability to understand our processes
Arria Perreault: SC members must be also quiet neutral and see thing with the point of view of legislation
Gwyneth Llewelyn: In my personal case, I view candidates to the SC as being people who have repeatedly made publicly a good job of explaining legal issues (either on forums, or on meetings). That requires a thorough knowledge of the legal system and the Constitution, which is not easy to acquire ? that's why SC members are special.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: To be honest, the only times I saw MT raising questions about the Constitution,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: it was to distort them to favour his argumentation.
Jamie Palisades raises his eyebrow
Rubaiyat Shatner: I am inclined to say no if there is a vote without comment from MT, but will wait till the last possible minute on that...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I second Arria's opinion ? the ability to pronounce comments on the Constitution ought not to be used as a personal advantage, and through that, earn a seat at the SC:...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I also fear that the reason for getting MT in the SC is to make it a body that represents all factions equally. Well, that idea is commendable, of course, and I applaud it; but there are certainly more people in the CDS that would be able to represent their faction at the SC (if, allegedly, that was the reason)
Justice Soothsayer: FRC, anything to add before Jamie and Moon?
Flyingroc Chung: I would think that MT earnestly believes in his arguments regarding the constitution, and andvances them in good faith.
Flyingroc Chung: Whether we beleive he is right is another thing though.
Flyingroc Chung: Also, maybe we should invite some people who have nominated him to speak on his behalf, if he i otherwise unavailable.
Arria Perreault: well ... we have to see if he is able to work for the general interest of CDS
Arria Perreault: that is what I expect for SC members
Justice Soothsayer: Jamie, you're up.
Jamie Palisades: thanks
Justice Soothsayer: Then Moon, so just indicate when you are done.
Jamie Palisades: I just asked to speak to endorse the SC's nomination. MT has been a productive and constructive RA member, a successful businessowner in SL and CDS, and knows our laws and community quite well. He HAS worked FOR CDS substantially and repetitively. And he has a perspective that would be refrshinginly different than some of our longest term citizens. ...
Jamie Palisades: I might add that, if disagreement or occasional fractiousness .. or a willingness to argue facts to support a position ... or an unwillingness to agree with the local burghers ... was a disqualification for service, we would have ... well. not much SC or RA either And CERTAINLY no chancellor. ...
Patroklus Murakami raises both eyebrows
Jamie Palisades: If we only elect people who agree with us we are weak and make ourselves less, not more. If there is a argument that MT has acted against *law* or substantially violated ethical rules -- judging by POLITICIAN standards -- MORE than the average around here -- let's hear it
Jamie Palisades: Otherwise, I'm delighted he is willing to serve. (All that is without prejudice to the RA's legitimate interest in inviting him to a meeting, if they wish, though.) Thanks. done.
Moon Adamant: may I?
Justice Soothsayer: Moon next, then back to RA members.
Patroklus Murakami: i'd like a word too, if possible
Moon Adamant: just a a brief comment to Jamie, and then a question to the RA
Moon Adamant: Jamie, if he is willing to serve, why isn't he here to defend hiscandidature?
Moon Adamant: and my question to the RA;
Jamie Palisades smiles and holds all eyebrows in abeyance
Moon Adamant: from reading our constitution, i read that SC members are 'expected to hold the constitution'
Arria Perreault: I don't think we have to choose people only because they have a good will. Being member of the SC requests an ability to be neutral, wise and to work for general interest. I don't see even myself as eligible for SC.
Moon Adamant: thus, i ask all RA members here present: do you believe that this candidate has the ability to attain this very clear qualification?
Moon Adamant: done, thank you
Arria Perreault: I just answered you, Moon
Justice Soothsayer: Pat, you are next, then one more round of RA members
Patroklus Murakami: just a couple of observations - first of all my recollection of MTs performance on the RA differs from jamie
Patroklus Murakami: but MT is not here to defend himsefl so i won't say anthing more than that
Patroklus Murakami: the key question is 'is this a suitable candidate for the SC, able to uphold and defend the constituion?'
Patroklus Murakami: thats all from me
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks, Pat. RA members?
Pip Torok: well can i here?
Justice Soothsayer: Go ahead, Pip.
Pip Torok: my recollection of "that meeting" indicates to me that MT preferrefd bluster to reasoned argument ... plus the fact that if someones does not turn to this meeting
Pip Torok: he has recourse to other means of saying
Pip Torok: that he will not turn up
Pip Torok: that being so he has not shown
Pip Torok: that he "answers moons criterion"
Pip Torok: (end)
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks, Pip.
Justice Soothsayer: I wanted to ask MT his opinion about the proper role of the SC in our democracy, but he is now here to respond.
So I will have to rely on his actions as an RA member and his writings on the forums.
I don't think he has exhibited the kind of temperment we need on the SC.
So I'll vote no when we take a vote.
Justice Soothsayer: *not
Flyingroc Chung: hm, claude might want to say something
Flyingroc Chung: one mo
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would just add that although the SC is often very furstrated in gathering people willing to serve there, the criterion is really not picking *anyone* who's willing to serve
Bells Semyorka: Hello everyone
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Welcome, Bells
Jon Seattle: Hi Bells
Rubaiyat Shatner: /I really appreciate Jamie's comment and feel much better about it overall, but would like to have MT respond to some of the comments.
Jamie Palisades nods - we made 'em show up, last tem, too
Arria Perreault: I will tell you the story of Aristides, politician in Athens. A vote was organize to bannish him for 10 years (ostracism). He was sitting next to an man who did not know write letters. This man did not know his face too. He asked him to write "Aristidites" on his piece of ceramic. Aristides did it, because he did respect the instituions first before his own interest of destiny.
Gwyneth Llewelyn applauds that idea
Flyingroc Chung: hi claude
Claude Desmoulins: I'm in the middle of something RL, but I heard there might be some questions.
Arria Perreault: This is an interesting story which show what means respect of institutions
Justice Soothsayer: Bells, we are discussing MT's nomination, and I know you have a conflicting schedule; do you want to add to the discussion?
Arria Perreault: we can provide you the transcription, if you will, Bells
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, and to Claude too, perhaps....
Bells Semyorka: yes please, I'd like to get caught up real quick if possible
Flyingroc Chung: claude, I'd be interested in understanding the SC's reasons for nominating MT
Claude Desmoulins: Dnate actually put forward the name. I can only speak to my reasoning.
Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds FR's question
Claude Desmoulins: I tried to reference it in the SC meeting.
Claude Desmoulins: Personally , I think the SC needs three things.
Claude Desmoulins: 1) A diversity of opinions
Claude Desmoulins: 2) Members who can think
Claude Desmoulins: 3) Level heads.
Claude Desmoulins: I have so serious reservations as to whether MT is #3, but I feel comcortable as to #1 and #2.
Pip Torok: I understand and agree with 1 2 and 3
Claude Desmoulins: We asked him about #3 during the SC meeting
Pip Torok: but dont forget an idea can be so diverse
Claude Desmoulins: I encourage you to read the transcript if you haven't yet.
Pip Torok: as it rule itself out of court
Pip Torok: and this disable 1
Claude Desmoulins: Of course the RA is free to do whatever it decides to do.
Claude Desmoulins: Sies that answer the question?
Rubaiyat Shatner: so if the RA does nothing then he is accepted?
Justice Soothsayer: Ruba, to answer your question, if the RA does nothing, MT is confirmed.
Danton Sideways: I'd like to add my 2 cents if possible
Flyingroc Chung: there is no other Ra meeting before the deadline?
Justice Soothsayer: RA members, at this point our dicussion has gone past its allotted time.
Rubaiyat Shatner: I am more inclined toward not voting then.
Justice Soothsayer: Do you wish to continue the discussion?
Pip Torok: i _do_
Danton Sideways: 2 LInden cents
Arria Perreault: yes
Rubaiyat Shatner: no, I don't think we can get any further
Justice Soothsayer: 5 minutes more then
Danton Sideways: if possible
Gwyneth Llewelyn would add something too, while Claude is here...
Justice Soothsayer: Pip, then Gwyn, then Danton.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: so I'd propose a motion tha we discuss this further, Mr LRA, since Pip wants to add something else too?
Arria Perreault: I have soemthing about the proces
Flyingroc Chung: I wonder if it is possible to vote against his nomination with the recommendations that the SC re-nominate him, so we can get MT to talk to us.
Flyingroc Chung: I would note that MT was here during a meeting when the RA had no quorum
Justice Soothsayer: Actually, FR, our quorum came and went, then came and went again, at the last meeting when MT was present.
Pip Torok: I think that if a case has not been made and the person doesnt show then we must ask whether he can uphold the constitution ... the cas has not been made IMO so i muust vote a certain way
Bells Semyorka raises her hand
Bells Semyorka: I'd like to say something if possible
Justice Soothsayer: Bells, go ahead. Danton, you are next.
Gwyneth Llewelyn whimpers
Danton Sideways: I wanted to comment on Claude's point 3
Danton Sideways: I've always seen MT keep his temper
Danton Sideways: but he is perceived to speak for The PRincess
Danton Sideways: who fails to keep heres
Danton Sideways: *hers
Danton Sideways: That's it
Justice Soothsayer: Bells, you have the floor now.
Bells Semyorka: Mt vvas here last RA session, he has a good sense of charachter. a level head. and he is vvilling to serve on the SC
Bells Semyorka: vvilling to voulnteer his time and efforts
Bells Semyorka: I have heard people mention that vve dont have enough voulnteers or that vve abuse them
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks, Bells.
Arria Perreault: I have something
Bells Semyorka: vve should be embracing his vvillingness to serve
Gwyneth Llewelyn: [10:37] Justice Soothsayer: Pip, then Gwyn, then Danton.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *coughs*
Justice Soothsayer: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Justice Soothsayer: Gwyn, 1 last word, then time is up.
Arria Perreault: and me?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: All right... this is a legalistic question actually
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Claude, I saw your criteria on the SC meeting,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and I also saw how all SC members, in principle, agreed that MT fullfiled those criteria.
Pip Torok: IMO a persons willingness to serve doesnt mean he has the qualification for the post he seeks to serve in
Pip Torok: (end)
Arria Perreault: In my point of view, good willing is not enough for SC
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's fine (we might disagree, but that's not our place to do)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: However, the COnstitution establishes the criteria:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: namely, ". Professors are chosen at the recommendation of current members based on demonstrated skill and desire to uphold the constitution without bias."
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The SC certainly can add MORE criteria.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What MT actually promised in the SC meeting,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: was that he would, in the future, demonstrate skills (that he hasn't so far=
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's very commendable that he proposes to show us skills in the future
Gwyneth Llewelyn: However,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *the* crtierium on the COnstitution says that he has to demonstrate those skills in the PAST
Gwyneth Llewelyn: not in the FUTURE.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Based on that, I cannot agree that MT has demonstrated one vital skill ? "a desire to uphold the Constitution without bias"
Arria Perreault: It would be like to acept in the Faculty people who promess to take one or two course in building ....
Justice Soothsayer: Time has expired. Are we ready to vote, or more discussion? RA members, please state your preference: Vote, or discussion?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And for me, that is a critical issue. I'd be more than happy to vote "aye"
Justice Soothsayer says Vote.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: IF... in the future he is able to demonstrate his lack of bias. That's all
Gwyneth Llewelyn: SOrry.
Pip Torok: i say vote
Arria Perreault: vote
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced that the "lack of bias" of MT in the past was just a "politician's gamble" (as he maintains, and Jamie seconds) ? so I vote *nay* on having MT as a SC member, although I might change my opinion in the future if MT is able to prove his lack of bias otherwise
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Vote
Justice Soothsayer: A majority having indicated wanting to vote, a vote is now in order. The question is on whether MT Lundquist should be confirmed as a member of the Scientific Council. How do you vote?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nay.
Pip Torok: nay
Arria Perreault: Because I think that MT has not the right qualifications to be a SC member, I vote nay
Rubaiyat Shatner: I abstain.
Flyingroc Chung: I vote aye.
Justice Soothsayer votes No.
Bells Semyorka: Aye
Justice Soothsayer: The motion carries, and MT's nomination is not confirmed.
Justice Soothsayer: The next item on our agenda is the Flag Bill.
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Justice Soothsayer: Claude, any comments?
Justice Soothsayer is embarassed to note an error in the previous statement; the motion to confirm MT *fails* and he is not confirmed.
Claude Desmoulins: No comments. The RA is free to be of it's own mind. There are several other citizens who have expressed willingness to serve on the SC, and the SC will move forward in considering those persons.
Claude Desmoulins: I guess that was actually two comments.
Justice Soothsayer: Sorry, Claude, I meant comments on the Flag Bill?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Claude Desmoulins: I think I said most of what I wanted to say in the forums. It really is to a great extent about taste...
Claude Desmoulins: ...I do hope that things like contrast and planning play a part in the thinking which leads to whatever design we come up with.
Justice Soothsayer: RA members, do you want to vote on the Flag Bill today, or let the discussion percolate a bit more?
Claude Desmoulins: I hope that ths bill , whatever its disposition, serves to move that discussion forward.
Pip Torok: let the discussion persolate
Bells Semyorka: please excuse me everyone, pleasure seeing you all again. goodbye
Pip Torok: bye Bells!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would just take the opportunity that Claude is around to really thank him sincerely for the outstanding efforts in *both* the Flag and the Anthem My applause!
Arria Perreault: Bye, bye Bells
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bye, bells, and thanks so much for coming!
Jamie Palisades waves
Justice Soothsayer: Well, Claude, I'll agree with Gwyn on that, but I think we should continue to discuss the Flag a bit more before a final decision.
Pip Torok: second Gwyneth
Justice Soothsayer also notes Pip might need to buy a new shirt if the flag bill passes.
Rubaiyat Shatner: discussion on the issue seems healthy in the forum, so let it continue
Pip Torok: heh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just one question... we're talking about the flag design as proposed on the "SecondFlagDesign.pdf", right? (http://claude.desmoulins.googlepages.co ... gDraft.pdf)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *SecondFlagDraft.pdf sorry
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks, Gwyn
Justice Soothsayer: Moving o....
Justice Soothsayer: on...
Justice Soothsayer: Item next is the Commerce Bill
Claude Desmoulins has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer: I would like to move Jamie's proposed substitute bill:
Justice Soothsayer: 1. The CDS Chamber of Commerce will be operational once an NGO charter is approved by the RA.
2. The RA requests that MT Lundquist, who has been asked to serve as convener, use one or more initial organizational meetings for the Chamber to formulate a draft charter, take citizen input, and bring a final version to the RA for approval by [date (ask MT)], 2008.
3. The RA instructs the Chancellor to provide a map or list of all CDS parcels that are proposed to be zoned "commercial" by 1 September 2008; and not to mark parcels as commercial or impose penalty rents against them until that map has been reviewed by the RA.
Jamie Palisades supplies a uri:
Jamie Palisades: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 065#p11910
Justice Soothsayer: Is there a second?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "by 1 September" might be impossible
Justice Soothsayer: hehe
Jamie Palisades or not
Gwyneth Llewelyn is just being practical
Moon Adamant: er 1st Sept is tomorrow....
Claude Desmoulins: If you'd excuse me, I ought to be going.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks for coming, Claude!
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks, Claude.
Justice Soothsayer: OK, changing 1 September to 15 September; is there a second to that motion?
Arria Perreault: I have a question
Arria Perreault: why don't we discuss the original bill from Jon Seattle?
Justice Soothsayer: well, there's no second for Jamie's sub, so the discussion is now on Jon's original bill.
Arria Perreault: ok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok
Arria Perreault:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: With due respect, and although there is naturally a personal view in everything, I'm happy to second Jon's original bill.
Jon Seattle: I had a change, that I noted in the forum, Let me paste it here. This is in response to FR's comments.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie's proposed changes leave too many issues out (deliberately or not)
Jon Seattle: 3. The Chamber of Commerce under the legislation is required to follow an approved charter at all times and in all procedures. Any violation of the approved procedures will result in immediate review of the Chamber of Commerce's charter by the RA. Any action taken by that organization in violation of it's charter will not be considered an official act under the Commerce Bill.
Jon Seattle: So, the Chamber can act outside its charter if it pleases
Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds Jon's amended proposal of his own bill
Justice Soothsayer: I'll note that change, Jon, as an amendment without objection.
Jon Seattle: but it cannot do so in transacting offical business
Jon Seattle: Thanks!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks for the explanation, Jon!
Justice Soothsayer: I also want to note that Bells gets a 7-day vote on this bill.
Justice Soothsayer: Discussion on the amended bill?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The discussion on that thread was quite thorough...
Jamie Palisades: I have indicated a desire to speak when it;s time for nonmembers, Justice.
Gwyneth Llewelyn is fine with having Jamie speak...
Arria Perreault: I will support this bill too. I think that it is important that the CC has also democratic processes.
Justice Soothsayer: Seeing no other RA typing gestures, Jamie, it's your turn.
Jamie Palisades looks around, frowns slightly, counts MT-veto-ing RA members in the room and muses momentarily. I've posted my views. I believe this is flawed for, among other things, constitutional reasons. I suggest it needs, at a minumum, more work if this is not to be a railroad.
Jamie Palisades: BY the way, I will be happy to provide my report - which is the next agenda item - having been here from meeting start through now, 11:05 am and satisfied my obligation - but will have to post it to the forums if ti is not done shortly. Sorry, but other time commitments require me to leave SL shortly.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Could you enumerate what the "constitutional reasons" are, Jamie?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It would certainly spare the SC's time in reviewing the bill...
Jamie Palisades: Not in the time available. I invite you to permit for more than a moment;s disussion, scheduled, if you wish.
Jamie Palisades: But I might direct you to -
Jamie Palisades: Pat's comments and mine in the more general NGOs thread.
Jamie Palisades: hm
Jamie Palisades: here - http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2068
Jamie Palisades: as one issue
Jamie Palisades: but not the worts one
Jon Seattle: I would like to reply
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, you're discussing the issue about "NGOs in general" since we have several ways of creating NGOs;....
Patroklus Murakami: if you're continuing the discussion, i would like to say a word or two about my position, since jamie has raised it
Jamie Palisades nods
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd be happy to see Jamie's point, since it seems that the argument is that the RA ought to allow unchartered NGOs that can manage citizens' propriety at will without the citizens' permission...
Jon Seattle: The Chamber of Commerce will be the first NGO with a governmental role -- one that is very signfigant since it can commend that a citizen's rent be quadupled. This is very different from any NGO we have had before.
Justice Soothsayer: RA members, please note that we have extended past our scheduled meeting time since we extended the MT discussion.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (while Jon and Pat certainly argued otherwise!
Moon Adamant: may I?
Jamie Palisades is afk for a sec tryign to delay his RL departure
Arria Perreault: NGO is one think. We are talking now on the implementation of the Commerce Bill in which the CC is mentionned. This CC has some power and we would like to be sure that CC works with the same level of democracy than branches of CDS, because of these powers.
Justice Soothsayer: What;s your pleasure, RA members, (a) continue this discussion; (b) vote, or (c) table to next meeting?
Pip Torok: c
Moon Adamant: i am not sure if this is the right moment to speak, but i for one would like to ask the Chancellor if he's willing to let go of one of his powers in favour of an uncharteredprivate organization?
Rubaiyat Shatner: table to enable more discussion
Arria Perreault: a or c
Rubaiyat Shatner: table here, enable discussion in forums
Jamie Palisades: (back)
Justice Soothsayer: I'm also voting for (c), table to next meeting.
Arria Perreault: c
Jamie Palisades: Happy to answer informally Moon
Jamie Palisades: maybe after mtg?
Moon Adamant: ok
Justice Soothsayer: We're tabling this to the next meeting.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok....
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Although, there is a good point raised by Jamie: we SHOULD have an uniform way of creating NGOs, as we have for incorporating companies in the CDS.
Justice Soothsayer: Sorry, Crashed.
Jamie Palisades just wanted use to get anything good in Jon's bill and apply it across NGOs not in a personal way
Patroklus Murakami shudders at *government* discussing how to create *non* governmental organisations....
Arria Perreault: it may be an other bill, more general
Jamie Palisades: Or how properly to leve them alone, Pat Mr. LRA? I am not sure we have the time to do the agenda item regaing my report well today. ...
Arria Perreault: a NGO bill
Jon Seattle: Ah, and even worse how those NGOs will make governmental deicisons without oversight?
Justice Soothsayer: We have tabled the Commerce Bill to the next meeting
Gwyneth Llewelyn smiles at Pat
Justice Soothsayer: So Jamie, would do you have time to report now, or want to direct us to the forums?
Jamie Palisades: ... I wionder if a posted report this weekend, followed by solicitation or questions at your next meeting, is the way to go? I too unfortunately must depart shortly.
Jamie Palisades: *of questions
Gwyneth Llewelyn is fine with reading it on the forums...
Jon Seattle: I have a question
Jamie Palisades: migh tadd that we are informally planning to regularize the Chancellor-shows-upo-at-the-last-meeting of the month approach, subject to adjustments as needed
Gwyneth Llewelyn applauds that idea, Jamie
Jon Seattle: My understnding is that the current law is in effect, that the chancellor can go ahead with applying files -- even must go ahead given the current law
Jamie Palisades: "applying files"?
Jon Seattle: *fines
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *fines I think
Jamie Palisades: oh
Jamie Palisades: nope
Jamie Palisades: Crae for a quick explanation?
Justice Soothsayer sure would like one
Jamie Palisades: It happens that a sneaky LRA amended the bill so that fines only can be levied after property is MARKED as commercial in its metadat - sort of a fair warning to the owners
Jon Seattle: Sure. It seems to me that the conditions of the original bill have been met.
Jamie Palisades: so no marks, no levy yet - and the obnly person in trouble is me for not yet marking ...
Jamie Palisades: .. actualyl Alexi was ordered to do so by 1 August
Jon Seattle: I see. And no plans to start marking soon?
Jamie Palisades: .. I hereby inform you that I plan to hold it in abeyance uintil this current bill is resolved Feel free to direct otherwise
Jon Seattle: good
Jamie Palisades: QED
Justice Soothsayer: Sounds good to me.
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Jamie Palisades: Justice, do you thik I ought to ask the RA now to aspprove the posted request I made 2 weeks ago to increase by 1 the number of stipended PIOs? Or is that "consent item" for next meeting?
Jamie Palisades: .. in terms of "easy stuff to get done quickly"
Justice Soothsayer: I think we decided to approve that as part of our budget discussions.
Jamie Palisades: ok 
next meeting then perhaps
Jamie Palisades: nice bait I will tell rose to remember the RA wants her unpaid for another month
Jamie Palisades: heh heh
Moon Adamant:
Justice Soothsayer: Any other questions for Jamie, please post them in response to his soon-to-be-posted report.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Jamie
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Speaking of "budget".... we *should* put that on the agenda some day, Justice
Jamie Palisades: i thought it would follow from my report. hm
Justice Soothsayer: Indded
Justice Soothsayer: I'll wait for Jamie's report.
Jamie Palisades: do we just want to make budget next meeting's item and consider hat a continuination of this delayed agenda item - so it isn;t last in the stack, maybe?
Jamie Palisades is happy to handle however you like
Justice Soothsayer: Yes, I think that is a good strategy, Jamie,.
Justice Soothsayer: Moving on... the next and nearly last item on the agenda is the Anthem. Anyone care to hum a few bars?
Justice Soothsayer: I am happy to defer that to another time.
Justice Soothsayer: Does anyone have anything under Item II.d. Other?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe well, on the Anthem, I just would like to thank Claude & Cindy
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and Moon for the half-cooked lyrics, of course
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But we need some time before this becomes something worth to be used as an anthem... we're getting there, though!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, yes, let's postpone it another week or possibly two.
Justice Soothsayer: It isa work in progress/
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* totally so!
Patroklus Murakami: i must get going. goodbye all
Justice Soothsayer: Final item III. e. Open discussion. Anyone?
Pip Torok: bye Pat!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: On "Other" I just would like to ask when we're starting to discuss a budget... should we do some preparatory work on that?
Arria Perreault: bye Pat
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (bye, Pat, thanks for coming!)
Justice Soothsayer: OK, hearing none, I will entertain a motion to adjourn.
Arria Perreault: I second
Justice Soothsayer: In favor?
Rubaiyat Shatner: aye
Justice Soothsayer votes Aye to adjourn
Arria Perreault: aye
Pip Torok: aye
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye aye aye.
Arria Perreault: I have to run
Justice Soothsayer: We are adjourned.
The meeting closed at 11:31 Linden time.