Questions and Answers from CDS Citzens

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michelmanen
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Questions and Answers from CDS Citzens

Post by michelmanen »

Please ask here any policy questions you might have regarding CARE's manifesto and policy platfrom and we'll answer as soon as possbile.

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Post by Dnate Mars »

On your CARE platform, I have a few questions about the Education part of the platform. In it you list a few meetings, which are great, but not really what I think of for education, and you make no mention of the New Guild which has a subset that is the school and has a faculty. Are you planning to take over the duties that the New Guild is trying to set forward and claim them as a CARE project or am I missing something?

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Post by michelmanen »

Well, Dnate, from what I am aware, the Guild has not yet held a single lecture of conference or course.. So I do look forward to see it put into practice its ambitious plans, which we fully support.

As to the second part of your question, I really do not think you quite understand what CARE is all about. We have no intention to "take over" anything anyone else is doing. This is not a competition.... We indend to work closely with the Guild and other public and private institutions to make things happen education-wise in our community. No one holds a monopoly of thought, talent and action here, and we must learn to stop compartimentalising things and see how we can work in a cooperative manner to achieve our common goals rather than thinking in terms of "don't touch this it's my turf and i'll bite if you step on it".

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Post by Dnate Mars »

[quote="michelmanen":ekhhgaoo]Well, Dnate, from what I am aware, the Guild has not yet held a single lecture of conference or course.. So I do look forward to see it put into practice its ambitious plans, which we fully support.

As to the second part of your question, I really do not think you quite understand what CARE is all about. We have no intention to "take over" anything anyone else is doing. This is not a competition.... We indend to work closely with the Guild and other public and private institutions to make things happen education-wise in our community. No one holds a monopoly of thought, talent and action here, and we must learn to stop compartimentalising things and see how we can work in a cooperative manner to achieve our common goals rather than thinking in terms of "don't touch this it's my turf and i'll bite if you step on it".[/quote:ekhhgaoo]
That is great, but the lack of any mention of the guild had me worried that CARE was not in full support of the New Guild. I thank you for clearing that up for me. Lectures and classes have been planned, but the speakers have been lacking when the time actually comes. I have asked for help in the past, but it seems that most people don't want to help teach or hold lectures, and the ones that have never seem to actually come up with a plan or a time to hold them.

This does lead me to my next question, does CARE support funding of classes and events to be held on CDS land? If so, what do you see as a fair amount to give to someone to hold a class and/or event?

Bromo Ivory

Post by Bromo Ivory »

I think the main thing that is important to realize is the CARE goal is not to "take over" - but revitalize!
And we do not beleive in "top down" but "bottoms up" change - enable the citizenry to make the vital community we all want and deserve!

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Post by Dnate Mars »

[quote="Bromo Ivory":2nmmd5yl]I think the main thing that is important to realize is the CARE goal is not to "take over" - but revitalize!
And we do not beleive in "top down" but "bottoms up" change - enable the citizenry to make the vital community we all want and deserve![/quote:2nmmd5yl]
I understand that. I was asking a question, I didn't mean to sound like I was accusing CARE of anything. I just was unclear and wanted to be sure I understood what your party stands for. And don't worry, I am going to be digging into the rest of the parties just as much.

Bromo Ivory

Post by Bromo Ivory »

No problem! I wasn't assuming- but as Michel is very detailed - I tend to want to summarize and simplify!

And if you vote for us, I would want it to be for the right reasons! :)

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Post by Jon Seattle »

[quote="Bromo Ivory":20jt24dk]I think the main thing that is important to realize is the CARE goal is not to "take over" - but revitalize!
And we do not beleive in "top down" but "bottoms up" change - enable the citizenry to make the vital community we all want and deserve![/quote:20jt24dk]

Remember that the New Guild is a continuation of the SPC and the SPC not only held classes but also trained several new builders who went on to design and build other buildings and islands. We are planning to use the new sim development for the same purpose. That is part of our charter, to use actual development projects to provide opportunities for citizens to learn.

I would also point out that while CARE talks about "our beautiful sims" it has never, under any circumstances, given any credit or recognition to the members of a spectrum of political parties who worked hard to plan and build those spaces.

The tone is clearly, very clearly, we want to sweep out the old and replace them with ourselves and "professionals" who will be much better than the people who have worked on those projects. I can come up with reams of quotes from CARE leadership to that effect. Its a bad way to treat people, including new citizens, who have put a great deal into making the CDS a better place.

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Post by michelmanen »

Jon,

I must say that I am very saddened to see your comments below -and I would like to hope thsat they are due to a misunderstanding on your part rather than an attempt to use these issues for electoral purposes. Let me briefly reply to both, since I would very much like to clear up any possible misunderstanding on both points you raise:

[quote:2i0r5hm3]I would also point out that while CARE talks about "our beautiful sims" it has never, under any circumstances, given any credit or recognition to the members of a spectrum of political parties who worked hard to plan and build those spaces.[/quote:2i0r5hm3]

CARE in general and I specifically have always acknowledged the great work done by local builders. In fact, the first line of the SL campaign video we produced in January (available here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU-6UTiDq3I ) opens up with shots of both CN and NFS; its first words are : "A great civilisation builds great cities.." I can't think of any other, more vivid and genuine expression of acknowledgement on our part of the great skills, work and dedication of builders of those spaces that these words and this video which has been playing for six months now and has been seen by close to 1400 people!

In addition, through this video CDS and its sims got extensive coverage on the first pages of both New World Notes (here: http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2007/01/creati ... .html#more ) and Second Life News Network (here: http://slnn.com/article/carevideo/ ), in the latter of which Publius Crabgrass, a member of an opponent party, states that he "appreciates the publicity which the video has brought". Clearly this publicity in SL's leading media of information as well as on YouTube, a first for CDS, is a publicity for the quality of our sims and the builders who build it. The only other thing I could have done in addition to that is specifically mention the actual names of all the builders involved -which, you must recognise, was hardly possible either in the video or in the interview I gave to SLNN at the time.

Secondly, ever since I moved into CDS I have only used local builders - that is, CDS citizens- for all the building I have put up: the Forum Basilica, the Emporium Romani, source.artificielle and the CRAEDO Auditorium complex. Now it is true that both Mizou Vavoom and Torin Golding (both CARE members) were not part of the original builders' team responsible for planning and building NFS and CN; but they are both CDS citizens and great builders and I am sure they appreciated the business. And while it is true that I did remove the building you had build on the land now hosting the Auditorium, you must recognise that the conference centre I constructed there and opened to the public is a great addition to our community and allows us to hold meetings, lectures, conferences and discussions which your building clearly could not have accomodated. Let us not divide our community's builders into "insiders" who were part of the "CDS sims project" and "outsiders" who weren't: all builders who are CDS citizens deserve the same recognition and respect, whether they were part of the "public" team who built the original sims or "private" contractors who added great buildings to them at a later stage.

Finally, in my speech at the CARE General Meeting a few days ago I stated, in my concluding remarks, that:

"We DID get the basics right. We have two architecturally beautiful sims. Soon we will have a third. [...] Let us look to the future. Let us embrace tomorrows challenges. Let us build a creative, unique, dynamic community worthy of our sims." And this time, in unprepared remarks, in my concluding sentence, I did thank all those members of other parties who dedicated their time, efforts and energy to building CN and NFS as great examples of civic involvement and public participation - and mentioned both Moon Adamant and you by name. It's a pity you couldn't make the meeting - just ask your CSDF colleagues Moon and Gwyn and they will confirm what I just said.

So Jon, I hope I have cleared up any possible misunderstanding on this point and shown, proof at hand, that I, and CARE, have always, and consistently, paid tribute to the architectural quality of our sims, to those who built them, and to all CDS local builders.

I would wish to think that your second comment is also due to an unfortunate misunderstanding:

[quote:2i0r5hm3]The tone is clearly, very clearly, we want to sweep out the old and replace them with ourselves and "professionals" who will be much better than the people who have worked on those projects. I can come up with reams of quotes from CARE leadership to that effect. Its a bad way to treat people, including new citizens, who have put a great deal into making the CDS a better place.[/quote:2i0r5hm3]

Now there are two possible interpretations to these comments, and I shall address them both. The first would be that CARE wants to replace the team of builders who build NFS and CN with much better professionals for future projects, like our third sim. This is simply not true and I challenge you to come up with single instance where I or any other CARE member have said so. When we talked about "professionals", it was strictly and exclusively within the context of the CDS legal system, where we did indeed talk about the need to have a stable, competent, professional judiciary. I do not see how this could possibly be interpreted as an attempt to replace original CDS builders with "much better professionals".

The second interpretation (which I do not claim is necessarily what you meant) is that the team who originally built both sims somehow has, because of that, some kind of proprietary interest in our community that goes beyond the buildings they built and therefore are entitled to go on managing and running all levels of governance of our community because of their contribution in building the sims. Therefore, irrespective of their skills in such different fields as marketing, publicity, events organising, commerce, legal drafting, judicial reasoning and legal argumentation, they somehow have the inherent right to keep on governing our community as it continues to grow and develop. I certainly hope this is not what you meant, because I can think of fewer less inefficient and undemocratic ways of looking at the governance of a growing and expanding community than that of claiming that the original developers of the sims should by nature of their contribution remain in charge of the governance of the sims irrespective of their specific abilities in these different fields. I do respect your skills as a builder; I am much less persuaded you would make a great Chief Justice or Public Information Officer. So the challange would be, in this case, for the original builders to focus on what they do best, building sims, and runing the new Guild (which you and Moon and Dnate - all original NFS and CN builder's team members- are indeed heading), and take an active part in the governance of our growing community, but at the same time let other current citizens as well as new citizens get involved too and attain public positions to the extent that their skills in various domains entitle them to do so. This has nothing to do with treating people badly and everything to do with planning and managing the growth of a community where the original builders are only one subgroup with specific skills in one area: the development of our virtual territory and buildings.

So, at the end of the day, we must decide whether CDS is a " game" owned by its creators or a true community open to new citizens, new skills, new ideas and eager to grow beyond its original boundaries to become a dynamic community at the leading edge of tomorrow. CARE, and I, have always and steadfastly been supporters of the latter, and have indeed advocated taking advantage of the skills, experiences, knowledge and wisdom of all our citizens, whether or not they were part of the original team that built and developed NFS and CN, as well as bringing in new citizens to help our community expand both in numbers and resources. If in doing so we somehow hurt your sensibilities, I for one offer my honest apologies. But I never said, or did, or meant anyhing that could reasonably be interpreted as attacking, or ignoring, or even demeaning your skills as a builder and your great contribution in time and efforts to building our sims -or any other original builder team member's, for that matter.

I hope this ( not so brief, after all!) explanation and commentary clears up any possible misuderstanding you may have about CARE's message and platform and will allows us to go on from here and continue, together, the great work you, and Moon, and others have started in Neufreistadt and Colonia Nova.

Bromo Ivory

Post by Bromo Ivory »

Oh my goodness NO Jon!

The work all of the Guild has done is amazing work - and a large part of what attracted me to the CDS in the first place!

I will try to elaborate a bit in the debates (Forums are sometimes lousy ways to communicate!) - but the gratitude that I feel, Michel has expressed to me, as well as all the other CARE members is real and we feel that the building skills fostered as well as the obvious freindships!

The point I think CARE is making is that the greater CDS community isn't as vibrant and dynamic as it could or should be! And we want to work with everyone to make this place the #1 spot for parties, recreations and so on!

And if we're elected, we're going to make sure everyone is part of the process!


[quote="Jon Seattle":3ovc700e][quote="Bromo Ivory":3ovc700e]I think the main thing that is important to realize is the CARE goal is not to "take over" - but revitalize!
And we do not beleive in "top down" but "bottoms up" change - enable the citizenry to make the vital community we all want and deserve![/quote:3ovc700e]

Remember that the New Guild is a continuation of the SPC and the SPC not only held classes but also trained several new builders who went on to design and build other buildings and islands. We are planning to use the new sim development for the same purpose. That is part of our charter, to use actual development projects to provide opportunities for citizens to learn.

I would also point out that while CARE talks about "our beautiful sims" it has never, under any circumstances, given any credit or recognition to the members of a spectrum of political parties who worked hard to plan and build those spaces.

The tone is clearly, very clearly, we want to sweep out the old and replace them with ourselves and "professionals" who will be much better than the people who have worked on those projects. I can come up with reams of quotes from CARE leadership to that effect. Its a bad way to treat people, including new citizens, who have put a great deal into making the CDS a better place.[/quote:3ovc700e]

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Post by Jon Seattle »

[quote:39hlwfl0]I would also point out that while CARE talks about "our beautiful sims" it has never, under any circumstances, given any credit or recognition to the members of a spectrum of political parties who worked hard to plan and build those spaces.[/quote:39hlwfl0]
[quote="michelmanen":39hlwfl0]CARE in general and I specifically have always acknowledged the great work done by local builders. In fact, the first line of the SL campaign video we produced in January.
[/quote:39hlwfl0]Unfortunately many of the people who watched that film were left with the impression that the CDS sims were specifically a product of CARE's efforts. Since you did not clarify in your video, I think most people would congratulate you for your accomplishments. The New World Note post you mention has the same problem.

[quote="michelmanen":39hlwfl0]And while it is true that I did remove the building you had build on the land now hosting the Auditorium, you must recognise that the conference centre I constructed there and opened to the public is a great addition to our community and allows us to hold meetings, lectures, conferences and discussions which your building clearly could not have accommodated.[/quote:39hlwfl0]The building was Brian's, and the only villa he built in the sim (I don't even know if he has a copy). Did you not know that or did you find it convenient to reassign it to me? It is not very clear to me that your new building meets the regulations in the covenants for that area which, among other things, specify rural structures only. Your building does provide very nice space for your own projects, but I am not sure that it offers that much to other CDS citizens.

[quote="michelmanen":39hlwfl0]Let us not divide our community's builders into "insiders" who were part of the "CDS sims project" and "outsiders" who weren't: all builders who are CDS citizens deserve the same recognition and respect, whether they were part of the "public" team who built the original sims or "private" contractors who added great buildings to them at a later stage.[/quote:39hlwfl0]I disagree. Some people have donated their time and effort to community projects and others have focused on making a profit. People who donate their time and resources do deserve additional credit.

[quote="michelmanen":39hlwfl0]
"We DID get the basics right. We have two architecturally beautiful sims. Soon we will have a third. [...] Let us look to the future. Let us embrace tomorrows challenges. Let us build a creative, unique, dynamic community worthy of our sims." And this time, in unprepared remarks, in my concluding sentence, I did thank all those members of other parties who dedicated their time, efforts and energy to building CN and NFS as great examples of civic involvement and public participation - and mentioned both Moon Adamant and you by name. It's a pity you couldn't make the meeting - just ask your CSDF colleagues Moon and Gwyn and they will confirm what I just said.[/quote:39hlwfl0]Its good to hear you changed your mind about this after I had posted on this issue. But are you willing to back this election rhetoric with actions?

[quote:39hlwfl0]The tone is clearly, very clearly, we want to sweep out the old and replace them with ourselves and "professionals" who will be much better than the people who have worked on those projects. I can come up with reams of quotes from CARE leadership to that effect. Its a bad way to treat people, including new citizens, who have put a great deal into making the CDS a better place.[/quote:39hlwfl0]

[quote="michelmanen":39hlwfl0]Now there are two possible interpretations to these comments, and I shall address them both. The first would be that CARE wants to replace the team of builders who build NFS and CN with much better professionals for future projects, like our third sim. This is simply not true and I challenge you to come up with single instance where I or any other CARE member have said so. [/quote:39hlwfl0]Ah, I did not say builders per se. You have said this about many of the branches of government however. In particular you and other CARE leaders have attacked both the Scientific Counsel and the legislature as being "unprofessional" on many occasions in the past year.

[quote="michelmanen":39hlwfl0]
When we talked about "professionals", it was strictly and exclusively within the context of the CDS legal system, where we did indeed talk about the need to have a stable, competent, professional judiciary. I do not see how this could possibly be interpreted as an attempt to replace original CDS builders with "much better professionals".[/quote:39hlwfl0]I have heard CARE apply the word "professionals" applied to other branches of government as well. I can read this in one of two ways:

1. By "Professional" you mean someone who is payed (at RL rates) for their services. If this is what you are saying, then how do you intend to rase the funds to pay RL salaries?

2. By "Professional" you are saying that the current people in those roles are unprofessional and you intend to replace them.

I take it you mean the second, but if so it makes your claim to respect the people who built this community is very empty indeed.

[quote="michelmanen":39hlwfl0]
The second interpretation (which I do not claim is necessarily what you meant) is that the team who originally built both sims somehow has, because of that, some kind of proprietary interest in our community that goes beyond the buildings they built and therefore are entitled to go on managing and running all levels of governance of our community because of their contribution in building the sims. Therefore, irrespective of their skills in such different fields as marketing, publicity, events organising, commerce, legal drafting, judicial reasoning and legal argumentation, they somehow have the inherent right to keep on governing our community as it continues to grow and develop. I certainly hope this is not what you meant, because I can think of fewer less inefficient and undemocratic ways of looking at the governance of a growing and expanding community than that of claiming that the original developers of the sims should by nature of their contribution remain in charge of the governance of the sims
[/quote:39hlwfl0]You certainly know this is not what I meant. Rather it is an attempt to argue by innuendo. To try to get readers to think that I am not throughly a democrat (I am) without actually saying so. Of course, while I do think that people who donate their effort to the community deserve to be credited for their contribution, actually having political position should depend on facing the electorate in an election. You have a clear responsibility to retract this insinuation, but I doubt you will.

[quote="michelmanen":39hlwfl0]I for one offer my honest apologies. But I never said, or did, or meant anyhing that could reasonably be interpreted as attacking, or ignoring, or even demeaning your skills as a builder and your great contribution in time and efforts to building our sims -or any other original builder team member's, for that matter.[/quote:39hlwfl0]
If you really, honestly mean what you say, then you had better also think about retracting what you have said to demean members of the legislature for legislating, members of the Scientific Council for doing their work, Moon Adamant who you accused of plagiarizing her citizen participation bill, and the community for your arguments before the SC in January that the court can legitimately ignore the legislature's actions. You should be (sincerely for a change) apologizing to all those people, and the citizens of the CDS, not me.
Last edited by Jon Seattle on Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by Jon Seattle »

[quote="Bromo Ivory":7pbgz3ob]The point I think CARE is making is that the greater CDS community isn't as vibrant and dynamic as it could or should be! And we want to work with everyone to make this place the #1 spot for parties, recreations and so on!

And if we're elected, we're going to make sure everyone is part of the process!
[/quote:7pbgz3ob]
I agree with you and consider that you are 100% sincere about this. Its a goal we share. I think it would be a wonderful change if you gain some influence in your party.

[quote="Bromo Ivory":7pbgz3ob]I think the main thing that is important to realize is the CARE goal is not to "take over" - but revitalize!
And we do not beleive in "top down" but "bottoms up" change - enable the citizenry to make the vital community we all want and deserve![/quote:7pbgz3ob]
I agree and wish you luck. My worry, however, is that Michel will pull the rug out from under you as soon as you achieve these goals. I take as an example of this, his attempt to unilaterally withdraw CARE from the RA. If CARE could only become really democratic from within, I think it would be an excllent addition to CDS politics.

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