RA Meeting 9 May 2010: Transcript - Part 1

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mikeloserevi
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RA Meeting 9 May 2010: Transcript - Part 1

Post by mikeloserevi »

[9:07] Arria Perreault: Can we start?
[9:07] Patroklus Murakami: pls do :)
[9:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn is fine with starting
[9:07] Pip Torok: me too
[9:08] Arria Perreault: I open the meeting
[9:08] Lilith Ivory: Stui is about to come
[9:08] Arria Perreault: Please click on the recorder
[9:08] Pip Torok: are we quorate?
[9:08] Arria Perreault: yes, I saw Lilith
[9:08] Lilith Ivory: Hi Stui
[9:08] Arria Perreault: Hi Stui
[9:08] Pip Torok: hi Stui !! :-))
[9:08] Arria Perreault: we have, Pip
[9:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi there, Stui :)
[9:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: EVENING ! I'm here and like Miley Cyrus - I CAN'T BE TAMED ! :)
[9:08] Arria Perreault: 2 members are missing
[9:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you are lucky tho
[9:08] Lilith Ivory smiles
[9:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: ***RAH RAH AH AH AH - ROMA ROMA MA GAGA OOH LA LA***
[9:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: yesterday I was lady
[9:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: rofl
[9:09] Arria Perreault: the agenda is in the amphora
[9:09] Pip Torok: ooo !
[9:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: with sparkly bra
[9:09] Imotali Antiesse: kwang kwang kwang
[9:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wish I had seen that, Stui :) Have yu pictures??
[9:09] Arria Perreault: first point: citizen concerns
[9:09] Arria Perreault: 15 minutes
[9:09] Arias Ahren: Yes
[9:09] Tor Karlsvalt: hi Stui
[9:09] Arria Perreault: who wants the floor?
[9:09] CDS Official Amphora owned by Arria Perreault gave you 'RA 9 May - Agenda' ( http://slurl.com/secondlife/Colonia%20Nova/15/165/42 ).
[9:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Hi Tor Tor !
[9:10] Arias Ahren: I have a question.
[9:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Go, citizens, go! :)
[9:10] Arria Perreault: questions, remarks, proposals?
[9:11] Patroklus Murakami: arias has a question i believe
[9:11] Arias Ahren: Could someone explain the procedures and protocols for voting? Or reference where these are drafted.
[9:11] Pip Torok: (probably quite a long one)
[9:11] Solomon Mosely: i have a couple things arria
[9:11] Arria Perreault: solomon, you have the floor
[9:12] Solomon Mosely: oh, i can wait till arias is answered
[9:12] Arria Perreault: Arias, I think it's a good question
[9:12] Patroklus Murakami: it should be pretty easy arias.
[9:12] Arria Perreault: we had a guide for voting
[9:12] Patroklus Murakami: there will be voting booths in the CDS and AA sims in central places
[9:12] Patroklus Murakami: you click on the booth
[9:12] Patroklus Murakami: it gives you a website and password
[9:12] Patroklus Murakami: you enter your SL username and the election password
[9:13] Patroklus Murakami: then you choose your candidates
[9:13] Patroklus Murakami: you just put them in order of preference
[9:13] Arias Ahren: How many are we allowed to vote for?
[9:13] Lilith Ivory smiles at Stui
[9:13] Patroklus Murakami: if there is a referendum qn, you answer that too
[9:13] Arias Ahren: I see
[9:13] Arias Ahren: thanks Pat
[9:13] Arria Perreault: we should update the guide in the portal
[9:13] Patroklus Murakami: you can list all the candidates or just some if you prefer(at least i think so! will have to chekc when jon trials it today)
[9:13] Arias Ahren: Yes
[9:13] Arria Perreault: I don't know whose task it is. maybe the SC
[9:14] Arias Ahren: Because many don't know the procedures.
[9:14] Pip Torok: May I give a tip: that you draw up a list on paper so that you do not miss out any name?
[9:14] Arias Ahren: Yes
[9:14] Pip Torok: hi Delia
[9:14] Tor Karlsvalt: hi Delia
[9:14] Lilith Ivory: hi Delia
[9:15] Arria Perreault: Delia, could the SC update the guide for voting?
[9:15] Delia Lake: /hello everyone
[9:15] Lilith Ivory: we were just talking about the voting procedure
[9:15] Kaseido Quandry: hi Delia!
[9:15] Timo Gufler: hi Delia
[9:16] Arria Perreault: we have many new citizen. It would be good to have a document where the process is explaned
[9:16] Tor Karlsvalt: hi soro
[9:16] Delia Lake: Arria, we have been looking at the guide for voting, have circulated the current one among SC. in order to update it, and tha must be done asap, we need 2 critical bits of information.
[9:16] Delia Lake: we need to have whatever resolution the RA passes or know that they have not passed anything today
[9:17] Delia Lake: plus we need to go through the software testing with Jon this evening
[9:17] Arria Perreault: ok
[9:17] Arria Perreault: the RA will provide you the information
[9:17] Pip Torok: motion to ove IVa infron of IIIa
[9:17] Pip Torok: *move
[9:17] Delia Lake: we have a SC meeting tomorrow at noon
[9:17] Patroklus Murakami: haha, you beat me to it pip!
[9:17] Arria Perreault: as soon as we have the guide, I will make sure it is in the portal
[9:17] Pip Torok: *in front of
[9:18] Patroklus Murakami: i would like to move IV a, b and c in front of IIIa
[9:18] Arria Perreault: Thank you Delia
[9:18] Arria Perreault: now we can listen to SOlomon
[9:18] Lilith Ivory: what about Sols questions?
[9:18] Lilith Ivory: ok
[9:18] Patroklus Murakami: as they all potentially affect teh upcoming election
[9:18] Solomon Mosely: thanks arria
[9:18] Pip Torok: I cede my motuioin to Pat
[9:18] Patroklus Murakami listens to solomon
[9:18] Solomon Mosely: well i wanted to to see if we could button up whatever the election debate process will be. i don't know if that's an RA job or not.
[9:19] Arria Perreault: (we're still in citizen concerns )
[9:19] Pip Torok: (sorry)
[9:19] Arria Perreault: no. it's the job of the Chancellor
[9:20] Arria Perreault: Sonja is organizing this debate
[9:20] Solomon Mosely: ok, thanks, and last thing,
[9:20] Solomon Mosely: i wanted to propose an RA commission for fund finding for AA, given their new 501c3 status
[9:20] Delia Lake: since it is not on the agenda, might you please post in chat the current content and order fo the motion under discussion?
[9:21] Arria Perreault: we are in citizen concerns, Delia
[9:22] Arria Perreault: Solomon, we can add this point for the next meeting. you have to provide more informations about this proposal
[9:22] Arria Perreault: for example the use of the money that will be raised
[9:22] Solomon Mosely: of course :) i just wanted to voice that a serious effort from the cds to make the most of their status
[9:23] Arria Perreault: can you post something, as Delia proposed it
[9:23] Pip Torok: hi Ranma
[9:23] Lilith Ivory: Hi Sonja :)
[9:23] Pip Torok: and Sonja
[9:23] Arria Perreault: Hi SOnja
[9:23] Solomon Mosely: about which?
[9:23] Arria Perreault: Hi Ramna
[9:23] Lilith Ivory: Hi Ranma
[9:23] Timo Gufler: hi Sonja!
[9:24] Arria Perreault: about your proposal
[9:24] Arria Perreault: it would be good to describe it and give more informations
[9:24] Ranma Tardis: Good day Pip-san and Arria-san and Lilith-san :)
[9:25] Solomon Mosely: oh, i thought her request was in response to the debates
[9:25] Arria Perreault: possible. in this case, sorry
[9:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, if it's a proposal for the RA to form a commission for AA funding *now*.... I guess this would be something that the RA could approve today... if we have a short description of what the commission is supposed to do. We did create comissions on the spur of the moment before :)
[9:26] Solomon Mosely: i know. but i can write something up now
[9:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok.
[9:27] Arria Perreault: a RA member can propose to add this point in the agenda of today
[9:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes.
[9:27] Mikelo Serevi: I's a bit late in this RA to form a commission like that
[9:28] Arria Perreault: any other concern?
[9:28] Patroklus Murakami: i think it would be best to see a worked up proposal for future consideration
[9:28] Pip Torok agrees with Mikelo
[9:28] Mikelo Serevi: Also, anyone could fund raise if they wished
[9:28] Solomon Mosely: ohhh.. its never too late to find money for a major cds project
[9:29] Arria Perreault: if it not the case, we can move to the next point of the agenda
[9:29] Solomon Mosely: just a few minutes, its a simple idea. i'll have a card for ya
[9:29] Solomon Mosely: no, i'm good arria
[9:29] Solomon Mosely: thank you
[9:29] Arria Perreault: a. Review this agenda. Approve any changes
[9:29] Patroklus Murakami: i propose that we change the order of the agenda today
[9:29] Kaseido Quandry: Mikelo, if you're talking about RL fundraising and providing tax deductions, there are pretty strict state laws on who and how charity fundraising can be done
[9:29] Patroklus Murakami: i propose that we move IV a, b and c in front of IIIa
[9:30] Pip Torok: seconded
[9:30] Solomon Mosely: new items first?
[9:30] Patroklus Murakami: because they potentially affect the upcoming elections
[9:30] Patroklus Murakami: so we should handle them now
[9:30] Arria Perreault: ok
[9:30] Delia Lake: and also, i believe, to Kas's point, rules regarding the spending of that money raised
[9:31] Patroklus Murakami: should we vote on my motion?
[9:32] Arria Perreault: yes, we can
[9:32] Arria Perreault: please vote
[9:32] Delia Lake: Pat, if you would, please restate your motion in chat
[9:32] Pip Torok: aye
[9:32] Patroklus Murakami: yes, i will
[9:32] Patroklus Murakami: i propose that we move IV a, b and c in front of IIIa
[9:32] Solomon Mosely: i agree with kas and delia, i think the commission needs to identify those regulations
[9:32] Patroklus Murakami: i vote aye
[9:32] Lilith Ivory: aye
[9:32] Pip Torok: aye
[9:32] Solomon Mosely: lol
[9:33] StuiChicanne Darkstone: aye
[9:33] Solomon Mosely: why not finish old business first?
[9:33] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[9:33] Imotali Antiesse: aye
[9:33] Timo Gufler: aya
[9:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[9:33] Arria Perreault: aye
[9:33] Arria Perreault: thank you
[9:34] Arria Perreault: next point
[9:34] Arria Perreault: 7 day vote
[9:34] Arria Perreault: no 7 day vote requested for today
[9:35] Arria Perreault: there was a 7 day vote for all items voted in the last meeting
[9:35] Arria Perreault: I did not get any one
[9:35] Timo Gufler: really?
[9:35] Arria Perreault: did you, Timo?
[9:35] Timo Gufler: I posted my votes on the forums...
[9:35] Patroklus Murakami: what timo said :)
[9:35] Arria Perreault: so I miss it
[9:35] Arria Perreault: soory
[9:36] Arria Perreault: can you give me the URL?
[9:36] Timo Gufler: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 850#p14850
[9:36] Arria Perreault: anyone else did vote?
[9:36] Arria Perreault: I'll count anfd publish the result after the meeting
[9:36] Arria Perreault: we can move to the next point
[9:37] Arria Perreault: a. Referendum about the Merger
[9:37] Arria Perreault: we had a long debate inthe forum
[9:37] Arria Perreault: Patroklus has made this proposal
[9:37] Solomon Mosely: oh, right, now you can talk about it before jamie or rose might get here
[9:38] Solomon Mosely: very smart
[9:38] Pip Torok raises hand
[9:38] Arria Perreault: I give him the floor to explane this point and remind us the question
[9:38] Solomon Mosely holds nose
[9:38] Patroklus Murakami: i defer to pip
[9:38] Arria Perreault: Pip, you have the floor
[9:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: GO ON PATTY
[9:38] Patroklus Murakami: solomon, rose is not coming today. she said so on the forums
[9:39] Solomon Mosely: right
[9:39] Delia Lake: and i believe Jamie is travelling for rl work and has no internet connection today
[9:39] Pip Torok: imo this referendum is essential ... it makes CLEAR the opinion of the people ... and together with Rose s decision affects our future radically ... done
[9:39] Patroklus Murakami: pip?
[9:39] Patroklus Murakami: ok, thanks :)
[9:39] Arria Perreault: thak you, Pip
[9:40] Patroklus Murakami: i propose that we add a referendum question to teh ballot for the may elections
[9:40] Patroklus Murakami: the question to be "Do you want the merger between the CDS and Al Andalus to become permanent?"
[9:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: seconds pat
[9:40] Arria Perreault: we have a motion that is seconded
[9:40] Patroklus Murakami: since that it the question the next RA and the AA estate owner will have to decide in july
[9:40] Arria Perreault: we can move to the vote
[9:40] Patroklus Murakami: um, hold on a sec arria
[9:40] Arria Perreault: ok
[9:41] Patroklus Murakami: ppl might want to speak on it first!
[9:41] Soro Dagostino: Railroad job
[9:41] Kaseido Quandry: seriously, Soro
[9:41] Mikelo Serevi: although, the point of this is to place it pefore the people
[9:41] Arias Ahren: You running the train sorro
[9:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
[9:41] Pip Torok respectfully disagrees with Soro
[9:42] Solomon Mosely: lol
[9:42] Arria Perreault: I will give the floor to RA menbers first
[9:42] Mikelo Serevi: A railroad job would be to settle the question without asking anyone
[9:42] Arria Perreault: then to citizen. please ask to have the floor
[9:42] Solomon Mosely: can we discuss the language of the question on the ballot?
[9:42] Arria Perreault: I would like to remind you that we had a long debate in the forums
[9:42] Soro Dagostino: It is an effort to overturn a prior ruling by the RA.
[9:42] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I am just wondering what the overall point is here ?
[9:42] Solomon Mosely: not everyone reads the forums
[9:42] Arria Perreault: everyone had the opportunity to give his/her opinion
[9:43] Patroklus Murakami: what prior ruling soro?
[9:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or should I phrase that differently
[9:43] Kaseido Quandry: and the forums are *not* the legislature
[9:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: what is the benefit of the point ?
[9:43] Patroklus Murakami: stui, the point is to find out what ppl actually want
[9:43] Pip Torok: Yes Soro ... WHAT prior ruling?
[9:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and when we know
[9:43] Solomon Mosely: wont we learn that after the elections pat?
[9:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I trust we'll actually listen ?
[9:43] Patroklus Murakami: there is a lot of conjecture, a lot of claims, but no evidence
[9:43] Soro Dagostino: The AA agreement.
[9:43] Mikelo Serevi: I think soro means the merger itself
[9:43] Ranma Tardis: I would like to make a short statement on this
[9:43] Arria Perreault: the result wil be consultative
[9:44] Pip Torok: Do you in fact mean hat, Soro?
[9:44] Soro Dagostino: A violation of law.
[9:44] Arria Perreault: Ramna, you have the floor
[9:44] Ranma Tardis: Friends, I would like to point our passio is getting the best of us.
[9:44] Pip Torok: ??? please Soro, can you clarify please?
[9:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ??
[9:45] Ranma Tardis: We have our fears of losing control to an unknown majority and remember the Confederation of Democratic Simulators is the entire group and not just the sims before the union.
[9:46] Ranma Tardis: What is needed is to provide a local amount of control to the sims that will give the residents a freedom of action under the umprella of the cds
[9:47] Ranma Tardis: I hope we cn resolve our differences and can move forward as a group.
[9:47] Ranma Tardis: Thank you
[9:47] Arria Perreault: (Regional committees is an answer to this concern. we can give them more power)
[9:47] Arria Perreault: thank you, Ramna
[9:47] Tor Karlsvalt: I just want to note, that CDS has a contract with AA. From what I read the public in both AA and CDS were consulted about this contract before it was extended to AA.
[9:47] Pip Torok: But the results of the Referendum will still go to Rose for consideration, Ranma, r will take AA views under speacial consideration
[9:48] Soro Dagostino: And approved it by the RA
[9:48] Arria Perreault: it's only consultative, Tor
[9:48] Tor Karlsvalt: yes and then approved by the RA
[9:48] Patroklus Murakami: but both sides have the option to dissolve the merger
[9:48] Patroklus Murakami: that's in the agreement
[9:48] Soro Dagostino: You seek to overturn what the RA passed.
[9:48] Patroklus Murakami: i'm suggesting one way to find out what ppl think in advance of that decision
[9:48] Patroklus Murakami: no soro
[9:48] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well that's not strictly true Patty
[9:48] Tor Karlsvalt: Then that issue can be addressed by the next RA
[9:48] Patroklus Murakami: not overturn. the referendum is consultative
[9:49] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the RA can dissolve the merger from the CDS side
[9:49] Pip Torok respectfully disagrees with Soro
[9:49] StuiChicanne Darkstone: not the citizens themselves
[9:49] Solomon Mosely: well, the merger stands until its otherwise voted on
[9:49] Tor Karlsvalt: This is a a lame duck RA wanting to box in the next RA.
[9:49] Solomon Mosely: so we dnt need to do anything
[9:49] Patroklus Murakami: true stui. so why not ask them what they want? i fail to see the problem with that
[9:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why is asking things to citizens so bad?
[9:50] Patroklus Murakami: because they might give the wrong answer?
[9:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well there is one issue with it
[9:50] Solomon Mosely: unless there's some massive uprising from the people
[9:50] Tor Karlsvalt: The next RA can do that'
[9:50] Arria Perreault: I would like to remind that we did this already
[9:50] Pip Torok: lame Duck, Tor???
[9:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: in that the next RA will not be made up of the same people as this one perhaps
[9:50] Tor Karlsvalt: We had several town halls. I saw now great opposition to the merger.
[9:50] Patroklus Murakami: tor, we only hold referenda at election time
[9:50] Mikelo Serevi: The choice to overturn comes in june
[9:50] Mikelo Serevi: That's the next RA
[9:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tor, the idea is that referendums are held during elections (to facilitate the procedure) so the time to ask things in a referendum is now, noit in 6 months
[9:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and so the fact finding is rather redundant for this RA
[9:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: unless we are to stay the same
[9:51] Tor Karlsvalt: it that a law or merely a preference
[9:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: in which case isn't it a waste of time
[9:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: when there's other matters at hand
[9:51] Pip Torok disagrres with Tor ... there were SOME expressions of disaggreement ... that dont speak for the whole of AA
[9:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: ?
[9:51] Patroklus Murakami: it is the law which was passed tor
[9:51] Mikelo Serevi: It was part of the merger agreement, tor
[9:51] Arria Perreault: it's consultative, Tor
[9:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hey, Stui, it might be redundant, but at least we'll finish our term knowingif we are doing something that actually most of the citizens want :)
[9:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so it's good for our conscience :)
[9:51] Arria Perreault: so both side have an important information to make their decision
[9:51] Solomon Mosely: well, since the position on the merger will no doubt be a part of the elections, wont we learn what the people want from who they elect to represent them?
[9:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: GL shame it wasn't the case earlier in the process
[9:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: :)
[9:51] Tor Karlsvalt: I agree pip, but I did not see a move to end the merger at the twon halls or subsequent to them
[9:52] Tor Karlsvalt: good point sol
[9:52] StuiChicanne Darkstone: they would have asked that I be lady G earlier
[9:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: betterlater than never! we're not perfect
[9:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[9:52] Solomon Mosely: yes, did we already learn that the people wanted nothing to happen in this term?
[9:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: this term is going thru the wash up
[9:53] Patroklus Murakami: brb
[9:53] Tor Karlsvalt: The town halls did not generate any support for a referedum
[9:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: in a desperate attempt to influence matters
[9:53] Tor Karlsvalt: nobody was asking for it
[9:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: with a view to being seen to ask the citizens as it seems more acceptable to them
[9:53] Soro Dagostino: I asked Pat for his facts -- he failed to respond
[9:53] Pip Torok: but noone was asking against it either
[9:54] Mikelo Serevi: we got some strong opinions, but it's hard to tell what people really want from that
[9:54] Delia Lake: if the RA is seeking informed opinion from the citizenry about any complex issue, why would they choose a referrendum proposed less than a week before the election? Why would the RA not use a well thought out survey process where citizens could express relevant ideas and opinions that could actually help formulate thought and future actions?
[9:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but it seems that the citizens aren't quite so sure of the value of the RA's input on this
[9:54] Kaseido Quandry cheers Delia
[9:54] Tor Karlsvalt: I can only assume that since the agreement was in place people are ok with having it proceed
[9:54] Pip Torok: but isnt that the same thing Delia?
[9:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: This is rather too little too late
[9:54] Tor Karlsvalt: it is not the same thing Pip
[9:54] Delia Lake: no Pip it is not the same thing at all
[9:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and it's expedient
[9:55] Kaseido Quandry: A yes or no question hardly does that, Pip
[9:55] Patroklus Murakami: gosh, this neuralgia over a simple referendum is all a bit much, isn't it?
[9:55] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it is beyond the scope of this RA
[9:55] Arria Perreault: In my opinion, it's very important to ask people, when the question is very polarizing. I don't think that the choice of representants is not the same thing than a question
[9:55] Delia Lake: there is even decent survey software already used in sl for educational distance learning courses
[9:55] Tor Karlsvalt: I think a lameduck RA should at this point merely facilitate the mechanics of the election
[9:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So what would be a better question, Kas?
[9:55] Mikelo Serevi: Complainers sometimes complain for the sake of it
[9:56] Kaseido Quandry: Pat, the RA agreed to a contractual process, and now you're looking to breach that
[9:56] Patroklus Murakami: that is untrue kas
[9:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: much as everything is beyond the scope of the last british govt and much is beyond the capacity of the highest party there at the moment
[9:56] Mikelo Serevi: Or perhaps to lock us in a loop of inaction
[9:56] Patroklus Murakami: nothing i am suggesting alters the agreement with AA
[9:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: then Patty what does it do ?
[9:56] Patroklus Murakami: all it does is supply the next RA and the AA estate owner with more information
[9:56] Tor Karlsvalt: So Pat why do it. The people have not complained about the merger
[9:56] Pip Torok: As far as I'm concerned, it doesnt matter which terms RA authorises it as long as one IS authorised
[9:56] Mikelo Serevi: Might I suggest positive suggestions rather than arrow-slinging? ;-)
[9:56] Kaseido Quandry: Gwen, I'd suggest a few questions to get at level of involvement, knowledge of what the merger is and isn't, and a variety of outcome preferenes - but survey design's not my area of expertise
[9:57] Arria Perreault: Tor, I think we have heard very different opinions
[9:57] Patroklus Murakami: if you are right tor, the answer will be an overwheliming 'yes'. so what's the problem?
[9:57] Soro Dagostino: Expressed only by Pat
[9:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I think RA isn't the place to ask the questions that have been explored at Town halls
[9:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, we can't do "survey design" on a referendum... I agree with that... but we can just establish preferences
[9:57] Pip Torok: AND by me too, Soro!!!!!
[9:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: on account that even the town hall took a vast amount of time
[9:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and as we are often reminded
[9:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the RA is a meeting of 2 hrs
[9:58] Tor Karlsvalt: The problem is that you are a trying to force the next RA into a positon that may be against the best interest of CDS.
[9:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: of which one hour has past
[9:58] Patroklus Murakami: perhaps we should move to tthe vote then?
[9:58] Arria Perreault: yes
[9:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and we are only not even half way thru an agenda
[9:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: why move to a vote ?
[9:58] Arria Perreault: I call the vote now
[9:58] Kaseido Quandry: Right, Gwyn, you're using the wrong tool for the job ;)
[9:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the citizens we asked
[9:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If I may... this RA has been often accused ofnot caring/not wanting to listen to citizens' wishes. The accusations might be right or not. Now it proposes to allow citizens to say exactly what they want, and now people are against it.
[9:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: weren't interested in the proposal
[9:58] Arria Perreault: the motion was seconded, Stui
[9:58] Patroklus Murakami: i will restate the motion
[9:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you asked them
[9:58] Patroklus Murakami: i propose that we add a referendum question to teh ballot for the may elections
[09:40] Patroklus Murakami: the question to be "Do you want the merger between the CDS and Al Andalus to become permanent?"
[9:58] Mikelo Serevi: lol gwyn
[9:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: they showed little support for this
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd like to see some consistency... does this RA want or not to listen to citizens after all?? I'm confused!
[9:59] Arria Perreault: thank you, Pat
[9:59] Patroklus Murakami: folks, we are in a vote :)
[9:59] StuiChicanne Darkstone: was the query just for the sake of politeness ?
[9:59] Mikelo Serevi: this is what I mean about complainers
[9:59] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[9:59] Patroklus Murakami: i vote aye
[9:59] Pip Torok: aye
[9:59] StuiChicanne Darkstone: NAY
[9:59] Solomon Mosely: lol, gwen
[9:59] Imotali Antiesse: abstain
[9:59] Solomon Mosely: we'll remember that
[9:59] Lilith Ivory: nay
[10:00] Timo Gufler: abstain
[10:00] Arria Perreault: aye
[10:00] Pip Torok objects STRONGLY to Sol's "we'll remember that" ...
[10:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Pip you can object to it
[10:00] Solomon Mosely: oh, dont the groups have a survey function?
[10:00] Pip Torok: imo it sounds like manipulation
[10:00] Arria Perreault: 5 aye, 2 nay, 2 abst. motions carried
[10:00] Solomon Mosely: yes, they do
[10:00] Mikelo Serevi: More like a threat
[10:00] Arria Perreault: thank you
[10:00] Arria Perreault: next point
[10:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but you can't realistically query the necessity for them to remember what upsets the citizens
[10:01] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and you each have to be re-elected
[10:01] StuiChicanne Darkstone: smart timing
[10:01] Arria Perreault: STV Quota Bill
[10:01] Solomon Mosely: i cant believe you guys
[10:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ell, referendums can only by called during election...
[10:01] Patroklus Murakami: folks, these meetings are tough enough to chair if everyone behaves themselves. could we try to help arria out a little more?
[10:01] Soro Dagostino: And a renunciation of a prior act.
[10:01] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I won't gloat
[10:01] Arria Perreault: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 830#p14851
[10:01] Solomon Mosely: ohh, sure thing pat
[10:02] StuiChicanne Darkstone: oh Patty I feel sorry for Arria having to control this circus
[10:02] Patroklus Murakami: shall i introduce this arria?
[10:02] Arria Perreault: there was a threat in the forum about this
[10:02] Solomon Mosely: hey, you owe her the favor, not us
[10:02] Pip Torok: Madame LRA, I call upon Sol to withdraw the remark "we'll remember that"
[10:02] Arria Perreault: yes, Pat
[10:02] Arria Perreault: I am not so good in math ;-)
[10:02] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but then if the RA would play by the rules in many respects and fulfill their duties THEN her job would be easier
[10:02] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if not easy
[10:03] Kaseido Quandry: heaven forfend there should be an expression of democratic accountability!
[10:03] Solomon Mosely: oh, i meangt her dedication to finding the real concerns of the citizens
[10:03] Solomon Mosely: how important a referendum is to seeking it
[10:03] Patroklus Murakami: this one is an 'optional extra' which i thinki it would be good for the RA to consider
[10:03] Arria Perreault: please
[10:03] Patroklus Murakami: as delia has posted, we can muddle through in these elections
[10:03] Patroklus Murakami: just using what jon has programmed into the software
[10:04] Patroklus Murakami: but i think, for the avoidance of doubt, it's better to make a decision
[10:04] Patroklus Murakami: it's about tidying up a bit of the election reform
[10:04] Patroklus Murakami: when we moved over to Single Transferable Vote
[10:04] StuiChicanne Darkstone: *mutters* muddling thru seems to be the habit here not the novelty
[10:04] StuiChicanne Darkstone: sorry
[10:04] Patroklus Murakami: the RA did not specifiy how the threshhold for getting elected was to be calculated
[10:05] Delia Lake checks her post to see if she really used the word "muddle"...
[10:05] Patroklus Murakami: the most common method is the 'droop quota' which i posted about on the thread mentions
[10:05] Solomon Mosely: i have that NC about a commission proposal
[10:05] Patroklus Murakami: *mentioned
[10:05] Patroklus Murakami: there are other though
[10:05] StuiChicanne Darkstone: stage whisper I used to be quite the amateur dramatic... you know that Actors are not so well thought of when they try to be political
[10:05] Patroklus Murakami: and my post was meant to highlight the options
[10:06] StuiChicanne Darkstone: all options or those which are favourable Patty ?
[10:06] Delia Lake posts the thread for the Forum discussion of this. http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 830#p14851
[10:06] Patroklus Murakami: if the RA feels ready to, we should make a clear choice. if not, we can use droop for now and return to this when ppl have had more time to consider
[10:06] Patroklus Murakami: that's all
[10:06] Pip Torok agrees with Pat
[10:06] Lilith Ivory: just read Delias post and I agree woith her
[10:07] Arria Perreault: thank you Pat
[10:07] Patroklus Murakami: if RA members have not had time to read my proposal, delia's suggestion makes a great deal of sense
[10:08] Arria Perreault: discussion?
[10:08] Lilith Ivory: I´m not ready to vote for anyting than the system Delia suggests
[10:09] Imotali Antiesse: Agree Lilith
[10:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm afraid I have to agree with Lilith too... I haven't seen alternatives either
[10:09] Pip Torok: me too
[10:09] Lilith Ivory smiles
[10:09] Patroklus Murakami: let's table this then, i withdraw the proposal
[10:09] Pip Torok: ??
[10:09] Patroklus Murakami: i withdraw my bill :)
[10:10] Pip Torok: what droop will that leave us with then?
[10:10] Patroklus Murakami: delia said "I recommend the RA vote to approve for this current election the methodology Jon has already included in the program. If the RA would prefer a different quota methodology, make that change apply to future elections but not to this one."
[10:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: brewers droop
[10:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: :)
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, well, that just means that we'll see the results of Jon's calculations first (using the droop he has configured) and will discuss if it was the right one after the election....
[10:10] Patroklus Murakami smiles
[10:11] Arria Perreault: withdraw means we don't change it for the election of the 14th RA?
[10:11] Patroklus Murakami: thing is, you have to use *some* method. 'droop' is the default if you have no strong opinion another way
[10:11] Delia Lake: will discuss if it is the right one moving forward to the next election. it needs to be the right one for this election if we are to hold an election where polls open on 15 Man
[10:11] Delia Lake: *15 May
[10:11] Mikelo Serevi: I'm assuming jon's new software doesn't change the way elections are decided
[10:12] Pip Torok: I propose that the RA choose the Droop
[10:12] Tor Karlsvalt: hi City
[10:12] Patroklus Murakami: aah, so you want me to reintroduce my bill pip? :)
[10:12] City Neiro: hello
[10:12] Kaseido Quandry: Will the raw votes and/or the software source code be made public?
[10:12] Delia Lake: of course it changes the way elections are decided, Mikelo. the previous elections were by Faction, and used a Borda count
[10:12] Timo Gufler: that's a good question, Kas
[10:12] Arria Perreault: Hi City
[10:13] Delia Lake: this is different
[10:13] Patroklus Murakami: yes kas, provided the SC approves
[10:13] Pip Torok: no only to establish what we actually wish to have used, pat
[10:13] Timo Gufler: where, can I see the code?
[10:13] Pip Torok: can you read Python, Timo?
[10:13] Patroklus Murakami: well, we should use droop for this election. we can change the method for future elections
[10:13] Timo Gufler: sure
[10:14] Arria Perreault: the question is: do we vote now for future election or not?
[10:14] Delia Lake: it the past Jon has made the data available but not quite raw as he has removed the personal identifier information. otherwise we do not have a secret ballot
[10:14] Kaseido Quandry: excellent, Delia, thanks
[10:14] Patroklus Murakami: arria, for this election solely.
[10:14] Pip Torok: agree
[10:14] Timo Gufler: if I would like to view the code, where can I get it?
[10:15] Timo Gufler: from Jon?
[10:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes
[10:15] Patroklus Murakami: i second pip's proposal
[10:15] Timo Gufler: how do I know, the same version is running in the server?
[10:15] Arria Perreault: good
[10:15] Patroklus Murakami: timo, could we deal with this offline?
[10:15] Delia Lake: right now the code is in testing mode. you might want to be part of the test group that Jon asked for for this evening, Timo
[10:15] Arria Perreault: can you write again the motion?
[10:15] Timo Gufler: ok...
[10:16] Arria Perreault: so we know about wat we vote
[10:16] Patroklus Murakami: pip: I propose that the RA choose the Droop
[10:16] Patroklus Murakami: with the clarification that it is for this election
[10:16] Pip Torok: I propose that the RA choose the Droop
[10:17] Patroklus Murakami: is that right pip?
[10:17] Pip Torok: yes
[10:17] Delia Lake: assuming that Jon has used Droop which i believe he has
[10:17] Patroklus Murakami: i believe he has, but he was waiting for RA decision ot finalise it
[10:17] Arria Perreault: we can vote now
[10:17] Mikelo Serevi: practically speaking, it might cause technical problems if we were to change this late in the game
[10:18] Delia Lake: exactly, Mikelo
[10:18] Patroklus Murakami: i vote aye
[10:18] Mikelo Serevi: so aye
[10:18] Pip Torok: aye
[10:18] Lilith Ivory: uhm... what does "choose the droop" mean?
[10:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: brewers droop Lil
[10:18] Pip Torok: it means incorpoate it in the votie=processing software
[10:18] Lilith Ivory: ah ok
[10:18] Arria Perreault: Pat, can you explane quickly?
[10:18] Patroklus Murakami: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 830#p14851
[10:19] Patroklus Murakami notes we are in the middle of a vote again!
[10:19] Mikelo Serevi: It means go with the default quota that the voting software has now, rather than alter it
[10:19] Arria Perreault: it determines the minimum number of votes a candidate need to be elected
[10:20] Patroklus Murakami: it is based on the number of seats and the number of votes cast
[10:20] Solomon Mosely: isnt this being tabled till next election?
[10:20] Patroklus Murakami: the formula is in the post i linked to above
[10:20] Arria Perreault: vote+1 / seat+ 1
[10:20] Patroklus Murakami: we need to make a decision about this now, for this election, or we will not be able to elect a new RA!
[10:21] Kaseido Quandry: Why not just move to accept Jon's software as written?
[10:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: good idea, Kas hehe
[10:21] Patroklus Murakami: we are doing kas
[10:21] Soro Dagostino: What is Jon's reccomendation?
[10:21] Lilith Ivory: I agree Kas
[10:21] Arria Perreault: Kas, the democracy is ove the technic
[10:21] Mikelo Serevi: That's what we're doing, I think
[10:21] Arria Perreault: over*
[10:21] Patroklus Murakami: jon programmed with the droop quota in mind
[10:21] Timo Gufler: I don't want to accept something, I haven't seen
[10:21] Patroklus Murakami: but with the option to change it if we choose something else
[10:21] Patroklus Murakami: i agree timo
[10:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: has this been adequately tested ?
[10:21] Kaseido Quandry: for this election?!
[10:22] Pip Torok: Timo ... its been in the Forums for weeks
[10:22] Patroklus Murakami: so let's decide on the droop method for this election
[10:22] Delia Lake: the testing is this evening, here in sl in the CDS
[10:22] Arria Perreault: I can say I would never make a "pragmatic" decision in this field
[10:22] Timo Gufler: yes, but only theaory
[10:22] Timo Gufler: *theory
[10:22] StuiChicanne Darkstone: can't really approve anything that hasn't been tested surely
[10:22] Patroklus Murakami: stui, we are not approving anything that needs testing
[10:22] StuiChicanne Darkstone: that's like trusting in God to pick your next leader
[10:22] Pip Torok: hence tonights test, Stui!
[10:22] Patroklus Murakami: we are approving a methodology
[10:22] Timo Gufler: imho, the code should be posted to forums
[10:22] Solomon Mosely: that ia already in practice?
[10:22] Patroklus Murakami: droop has been used in countless STV elections
[10:22] Delia Lake: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2854
[10:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: tonights test
[10:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the test comes after the vote ?
[10:23] Solomon Mosely: is
[10:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: how does the test influence the capacity to vote ?
[10:23] Arria Perreault: in an informatic project, the conception comes before the development and the tests, Stui
[10:23] Pip Torok: how can _tonights test_ come after the vote, Stui?
[10:23] Patroklus Murakami: the test is to make sure the mechanics all work stui
[10:23] Arria Perreault: don't let you governed by algorithms ;-)
[10:23] Patroklus Murakami: this is separate
[10:24] Patroklus Murakami: it is unfinished business the previous RA should have considered
[10:24] Patroklus Murakami: but it is a technical detail so they can be forgiven
[10:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well the present RA hardly considered it timeously
[10:24] Arria Perreault: make decisions about the way the software has to be pdevelopped
[10:24] Patroklus Murakami: but if you do not say how the victory threshold is set, you cannot allocate any seats under STV
[10:24] Patroklus Murakami: so we have to make a decision
[10:25] Imotali Antiesse: Isn't this a proposal already being disagreed earlier?
[10:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it seems a bit rich to criticise the past when the present hasn't made much work on it until it's last opportunity
[10:25] Pip Torok despairs at a RA forced to go at the pace of the slowest to understand ....
[10:25] Patroklus Murakami: well, let's remedy that now, shall we/
[10:25] Patroklus Murakami: ?
[10:25] Arria Perreault: are you ready to vote?
[10:26] Pip Torok: yes
[10:26] Mikelo Serevi: I already ayed
[10:26] Pip Torok: aye
[10:26] Timo Gufler: nay
[10:26] Arria Perreault: I call the vote
[10:26] Patroklus Murakami: i already said aye
[10:26] Lilith Ivory: aye
[10:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I despair at the man who thinks he's the quickest purely on his lack of care for detail
[10:26] Pip Torok: aye
[10:26] Imotali Antiesse: nay
[10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[10:27] Arria Perreault: Stui?
[10:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well if delia doesn't see it to be a problem
[10:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: then I trust her judgement
[10:28] Arria Perreault: your vote, please
[10:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: sooner trust the judgement of someone who thinks :)
[10:28] Patroklus Murakami: a clear 'aye' or 'nay' is really all we need stui
[10:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: would you like to tell me which to say too Patty ?
[10:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: AYE
[10:29] Arria Perreault: aye
[10:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: (just incase he happens to try to do so)
[10:29] Arria Perreault: 7 aye, 2 nay. motion carried
[10:29] Arria Perreault: thank you
[10:30] Arria Perreault: c. Setting a Size for the RA
[10:30] Mikelo Serevi: so we can vote, that's good to know :-)
[10:30] Patroklus Murakami: yes mikelo! a relief!
[10:30] Arria Perreault: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 731#p14636
[10:30] Lilith Ivory: was´t it already aproved that there are 13 seats in the next term?
[10:31] Patroklus Murakami: yes lilith, according to our current rules. this would change the rules to get a different number
[10:31] Solomon Mosely: good point lil
[10:31] Patroklus Murakami: shall in introduce the proposal?
[10:31] Patroklus Murakami: *I

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