Callipygian Christensen: the meeting recorder is now on
Callipygian Christensen: it is sending out this IM to all of you and to people as they arrive: [08:17] Vintage RCA meeting recorder: Note: Meeting in progress - all local chat in this area may be recorded for publication
Callipygian Christensen: I call this meeting to order.
Callipygian Christensen: First up, in creating the agenda I had a cut and paste error moment and omitted the administrative point at the end.
Callipygian Christensen: Will the SC accept the amended agenda for today?
Soro Dagostino: Looks ok.
Arria Perreault: It is fine for me too
Aliasi Stonebender: seems good.
Callipygian Christensen: thank you- agenda is accepted as amended
Callipygian Christensen: Item 1
Callipygian Christensen: legality of the Imprest Cash Fund used by the previous Chancellor
Lilith Ivory: Hi all, sorry to be late
Callipygian Christensen: this is sturcutred discussion - I have posted my opinions here: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=6115
Callipygian Christensen: We'll begin with Aliasi..opinions Aliasi?
Aliasi Stonebender: well. I don't think having a cash fund is itself against the law; if the RA has a fund as part of the budget that's clearly within bounds.
Aliasi Stonebender: However, I don't think this fund was necessarily put before the RA, was it?
Callipygian Christensen: It wasn't - itwas a direct request to the Treasurer
Aliasi Stonebender: /me nods. Just gettign independent confirmation of that.
Soro Dagostino: A unilateral action by the Chancellor, without consulting or advising the RA.
Aliasi Stonebender: So that tells me this particular fund was probably not legitimate, mostly in that it was not done in the lawful manner.
Callipygian Christensen: anything further Aliasi?
Callipygian Christensen: Apparently Soro is up next 
Callipygian Christensen: Soro, your turn
Aliasi Stonebender: (no, nothing more.)
Soro Dagostino: It was dictatorial action by the then Chancellor.
Callipygian Christensen: anything further?
Soro Dagostino: No
Callipygian Christensen: ok..everyone..please indicate when you are done - I wait because I am not sure about lag etc
Callipygian Christensen: Lilith?
Lilith Ivory: I have to agree with Aliasi
Lilith Ivory: done
Callipygian Christensen: Arria?
Arria Perreault: I agree with analysis, Calli. I think that we have to see all what is related to payments in CDS as a whole process from budgeting to expenses, including the controlling of the whole process.
Arria Perreault: with your analysis and the opinion of the other SC members* . Done
Callipygian Christensen: thank you - I'll comment then we'll go around again
Callipygian Christensen: I believe in passing the budget the RA HAS authorized the Chancellor's expenditure of funds.
Callipygian Christensen: Once the budget is accepted, the law passes responsibility to the Treasurer to have controls in place to ensure theat money is correctly disbursed
Callipygian Christensen: So I still hold that, if the Tresurer accepts a method of disbursement, it becomes legal.
Callipygian Christensen: It would be equally legal for her to refuse to do so, but in this case, she did agree.
Callipygian Christensen: I don't see any law giving the RA power to intervene past the budget approval.
Callipygian Christensen: Done
Callipygian Christensen: Aliasi..further thoughts?
Aliasi Stonebender: I think that opinion has some possibly dangerous and unintended consequences, if you carry that to the ultimate conclusion, Calli.
Aliasi Stonebender: If the fund was not part of the budget, then the RA did not ever approve it.
Aliasi Stonebender: Since, just as a hypothetical, your interpretation means that the Chancellor could, for example, authorize purchase of a new sim without RA approval just by asking the Treasurer for the money.
Aliasi Stonebender: I don't think that's quite what was intended!
Sudane Erato: point of info... a "fund" would never be a part of the budget, but rather a method of administering the budget
Callipygian Christensen: Not at all- the money he was requesting was money approved within the budget.
Aliasi Stonebender: That isn't what you just said, or perhaps I misunderstood.
Callipygian Christensen: this was only a different method of distirbution. imo.
Aliasi Stonebender: Did the RA approve that money to be spent on that purpose?
Callipygian Christensen: The question before us is about the method, not the funds themself.
Aliasi Stonebender: I am entirely asking about the method.
Callipygian Christensen: I dont see this as ''money being spent on a fund'..I see it as ' budgeted money being held in an account other than the treasurers'
Callipygian Christensen: Aliasi, can we get others input too and come back to this?
Callipygian Christensen: Soro?
Aliasi Stonebender: certainly.
Soro Dagostino: This is a protocol issue. A new system imposed by the Chancellor without consulting the RA or others.
Soro Dagostino: Administrative matters that were the subject of RA jurisdiction. Had they been consulted the protocol might have been approved. There were not.
Soro Dagostino: Done.
Callipygian Christensen: Lilith?
Callipygian Christensen: we have lost both lilith and Arria
Sudane Erato: France and Germany disappeared
Soro Dagostino: Europe must have lost the internet.
Garnet Psaltery: Ok in the IK so far
Garnet Psaltery: UK
Callipygian Christensen: well I may take that personally - we have bunsess to conduct here! Who do I call?
Callipygian Christensen: Ok, to summarize I think:
Callipygian Christensen: Soro sees this as an admistrative act that was inapprpriate because no RA approval was sought
Patroklus Murakami: the router lights are going out all over europe....
Callipygian Christensen: Aliasi is of similar thinking
Shep Titian: \probably Putin Calli .... sorry for interupting
Callipygian Christensen: I do not believe the consutation should have been with RA, but with the Treasurer. I read the law as saying 'the treasurer decides on methods od sibursement and recording.'
Callipygian Christensen: welcome back Arria
Arria Perreault: ty ?
Callipygian Christensen: one moment everyone while I cut and paste what she missed to Arria
Arria Perreault: thank you
Callipygian Christensen: Arria - when yu are ready, further comments from you?
Arria Perreault: ok
Arria Perreault: I think that we have to make a difference between two levels of decision. One is kind of strategic : the budget that must be approved by the RA. The operations : this is something that has to be managed by the Executive.
Arria Perreault: I believe also that it is not bad that operational processes are well described in a bill. This is a suggestion for the next RA.
Callipygian Christensen: and my opinion, as I said, is that civil servants *must* question actions theey feel may be illegal, so no
Callipygian Christensen: So I ask the SC to vote yes or no to the question: did the Treasurer act illegally in refusing to obey the instructions given by the Chancellor?
Callipygian Christensen: No
Arria Perreault: no
Aliasi Stonebender: No.
Lilith Ivory: no
Soro Dagostino: No
Callipygian Christensen: 5 votes no, a unanimous decision - the Treasurer did not act illegally.
Callipygian Christensen: I would also like to mention on the record that I found the petition to be a personal diatribe and worded imappropriately for such a document.
Callipygian Christensen: so on to item 3.
Sudane Erato: sorry... must run 
Arria Perreault: Good by Sudane ?
Arria Perreault: bye*
Callipygian Christensen: challenge to the inclusion of Cleopatra Xigalia on the most recent Citizen List
Callipygian Christensen: We are adressing this, although no votes were cast, because the matter can affect future qualifications, if it is found that controlling a hippo box not attached to land that you own can qualify one for citizenship.
Callipygian Christensen: I posted the relevant information here:
Callipygian Christensen: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=6119
Callipygian Christensen: At the time of the census Cleopatra owned one parel in CDS,but did not control the tier box.
Soro Dagostino: /me raises hand
Callipygian Christensen: She replied to the challenge of her inclusion by caliming that her name on a tier box at DT4 qualified her as a citizen.
Callipygian Christensen: However, Cleopatra had sold DT4 prior to the census, but had not relinquished control of the tier box.
Callipygian Christensen: Ok..we'll start with you Soro - Should Cleopatra's name have beeremoved from the Citizen List?
Soro Dagostino: Point of information . . . Had cleo taken the buyer's money?
Callipygian Christensen: Yes, the sale was completed
Callipygian Christensen: Both Cleo and the purchaser were present at the parcel for the sale
Soro Dagostino: Then, yes, she had no interest.
Callipygian Christensen: anything further?
Soro Dagostino: That said, I think the question is moot. Cleo is gone.
Callipygian Christensen: anythigng further?
Soro Dagostino: done
Callipygian Christensen: Lilith?
Lilith Ivory: while we always use to make it clear in our forum posts and reminders we send out to citizens they need to own land and be in good standing at the SAME hippo box I am not sure at the moment if the original law at this time was worded as clear
Lilith Ivory: I think we need to look at this law to see if owning one parcel and paying the tier for another one made her a citizen able to vote
Lilith Ivory: do we have a link to this handy?
Callipygian Christensen: Lilith - I think the point here is that Cleopatra did not OWN the parcel she held the tier box on.
Callipygian Christensen: we can find the link to the law certainly, but I believe it is always clear that ownership and tier box go toether
Lilith Ivory: yes I am aware of the fact and would say as long as she did not own both parcel and the box to this parcel she should have been removed from the list
Callipygian Christensen: Would you like to locate it whole the others speak?
Lilith Ivory: (just wondering if she found another loobhole here)
Soro Dagostino: ((Cleo was a master at that.))
Lilith Ivory: unfortunately yes
Callipygian Christensen: her action in not clearing the tier box for the new owner of the land and attempting to use that tier box to establish her own citizenship, was a direct action that would result in the disenfranchisement of a new citizen. For a long time citizen, familiar with our laws regarding land ownership, tier and voting rights, this action would be inexcusable; from a member of the RA I feel it to be an impeachable act. I also believe that such an attempt to manipulate the census process for her own protection and benefit should result in a bar to future holding of office.
Since Cleopatra resigned form the RA, impeachment is moot. I would however call on the SC to convene a hearing on this matter,with the intent of barring Cleopatra Xigalia from holding future office in CDS for a specified period of time.
Callipygian Christensen: I believe that Cleopatra contravened the laws, ignored the Constiution and did so , from her own claim, knowingly and intentionally.
Lilith Ivory: /me nods in agreement
Callipygian Christensen: The SC is responsible for ensuring that the election process and voting rights are upheld. While impeachmment is no long possible, I believe we have a responsibility to hold a hearing and adress these actions .
Callipygian Christensen: Discussion on this request to convene a hearing - we will start with Arria
Callipygian Christensen: Hmm..Arria may be departing with the rest of Europe again.
Soro Dagostino: While I think it laudatory that we have a hearing, the act of banning someone without a proper trial and presentation of evidence from both sides is a violation of the basic rules of due process.
Callipygian Christensen: Aliasi? we can come back to Arria
Arria Perreault: sorry
Arria Perreault: I let Aliasi speak
Callipygian Christensen: Soro..please wait..everyone will take a turn
Callipygian Christensen: thanks Arria..Aliasi?
Aliasi Stonebender: It depends on how we're approaching this. The nature of the CDS means there are many times where there is not a 'due process' - if a noncitizen pops into a sim and attempts to crash it, we empower the appropriate people to simply ban without hearing or argument.
Aliasi Stonebender: But we certainly do give it for citizens.
Aliasi Stonebender: and when there is no clear and present danger.
Aliasi Stonebender: So I would have to tenatively agree with Soro that we should at least permit Cleo a chance to defend herself, although of course she might not take it. We can't force someone to show up at a hearing, either.
Guillaume Mistwalker: /me raises hand.
Callipygian Christensen: Perhaps I can interject what I mean by a 'hearing'. No body in either life has authorized me as a 'judge' . so I do not find the term 'trial' appropriate.
Callipygian Christensen: A hearing to me is 'Cleopatra is invited to come and defend her actions, and so on.
Callipygian Christensen: as opposoed to us just discussing and making a decision as we have been doing today.
Callipygian Christensen: So the hearing is due process imo, and we proceed on that basis. Done.
Callipygian Christensen: Arria..back to you for your turn now
Arria Perreault: ok
Arria Perreault: I think that the best to do is to learn from the issues.
Arria Perreault: I don't think that we have to make a hearing on this case, but use it to see how the process can be improved for the future.
Arria Perreault: Done for now.
Callipygian Christensen: ok..Soro?
Tor Karlsvalt: /me still has his hand up.
Aliasi Stonebender: As I said, even for a non-citizen, it's proper to allow a full hearing when the situation permits. This has some precedent in regards to Ulrika Zugzwang.
Aliasi Stonebender: While she formally disavowed any relationship to Neualtenburg/Neufreistadt, we still had a hearing. She declined to show, but she was not barred from it.
Callipygian Christensen: /me nods in agreement
Lilith Ivory: /me nods too
Soro Dagostino: I agree with that.
Callipygian Christensen: Anything further from the SC members?
Lilith Ivory: not from me
Soro Dagostino: I'd like to hear Tor's comment.
Callipygian Christensen: Ok, Tor - is your comment specific to the issue of fair hearing ?
Tor Karlsvalt: yes it is.
Callipygian Christensen: Please be concise and on point
Tor Karlsvalt: thanks
Tor Karlsvalt: he concept of a trial, as I understand it, seems ill-suited to Second Life. First of all we never have trials so it seems no one is certain how that process would occur. Does the Chancellor bring a trial for banning? Do citizens?
Second, it seems we would not be able to bring any evidence at a trial. ToS has in my opinion protected the worst type of griefing. Logs of IM cannot be copied in chat. And if they were copied into chat, logs could be altered and claimed to be fabricated.
Tor Karlsvalt: Egregious breaches of our laws and customs have been attested to by individuals in my IM. Yet these same people do not want their names used in a trial. Also, several estates have informed me that Cleo has been banned, but they would not testify in a trial as to her character.
Frankly our system here is flawed. The community has no way to protect itself or its citizens from constant badgering, insult, RL threat, and destructive behavior. We are left only with the hope that a citizen griefer forget and let down their guard and commit some heinous crime against ToS or the community in public and in a manner affecting the entire community. Baring that, citizens continue to suffer by the citizen griefer, some leave our community and more hear of our lack of security and never become members here.
Tor Karlsvalt: We constantly point to our only trial of Ulrika as a precedent. But we are likely to never have an incident like the one perpetrated by Ulrika.
I also fear bringing a case to the SC as lacking testimony from people with some distance from CDS and clearcut evidence, a trial might fail and thus give the griefer a stronger position.
It is my hope that his issue is finally resolved in some manner. For CDS could well be torn totally apart the next time we encounter CLEOPATRA Xigallia.
Tor Karlsvalt: done
Callipygian Christensen: Tor, having read through that, it is not clear to me if you are supporting the idea of a hearing or not, and frankly the hearing is identified as specific to actions that we do have evidence of.
Callipygian Christensen: Do members of the SC have any response to Tor?
Tor Karlsvalt: /me raises hand.
Callipygian Christensen: Tor..and please be brief.
Tor Karlsvalt: sure
Tor Karlsvalt: I good deal of the worst of Cleo is perpetrated in IM. None of this can be presented as evidence. We can testify to what was said in IM, but naturally that can be denied.
Callipygian Christensen: Tor - you have mixed together my call for a hearing and a separate petition.
Lilith Ivory: /me thinks Tor is talking about a different case than the one the SC discusses at the moment
Callipygian Christensen: Please go back and review what the hearing we are currently discussing is addressing.
Tor Karlsvalt: At some point we need guidlines as to what is evidence that could be used. We will never see Cleo deleted NFS. But I can testify to the fact that I have been abused by her for the nearly five years I have been a citizen in CDS. done
Soro Dagostino: /me raises hand
Callipygian Christensen: In addition, I'd reply to your long commentary that if the laws are weak, the RA needs to fix them..and as a sitting member of the next RA you have that opportunity.
Callipygian Christensen: Soro?
Soro Dagostino: Have we decided to go forward with a hearing?
Soro Dagostino: I so believe.
Soro Dagostino: It should be noticed and the citizen's may appear.
Callipygian Christensen: I believe so also . Tor, with all due respect, I believe you are conflating different sets of accusations and discussion of your concerns is done.
Callipygian Christensen: Soro, let me type up a motion?
Soro Dagostino: If Cleo refuses to participate, so be it.
Soro Dagostino: done for now.
Callipygian Christensen: Motion: To convene a hearing to consider barring Cleopatra Xigalia form holding future office in CDS> This hearing will address whether Celopatra ignored the Constitution and laws of CDS in her attempts to establish citizenship on the last Citizen List. Cleopatra will be invited to attend to answer to these accusations, and other citizens may petition to appear.
Callipygian Christensen: Soro..does that cover it?
Soro Dagostino: Second
Callipygian Christensen: thank you
Callipygian Christensen: any further discussion?
Soro Dagostino: Call the question
Callipygian Christensen: Not hearing any or seeing signs of typing, SC members please vote yes or no to the motion
Soro Dagostino: Yes
Lilith Ivory: Yes
Callipygian Christensen: Yes
Aliasi Stonebender: yes
Arria Perreault: no
Aliasi Stonebender: (also, I will need to leave.)
Callipygian Christensen: 4 in favour, one against, the motion carries.
Soro Dagostino: As do I.
Soro Dagostino: RL calls.
Arria Perreault: I have to go too ?
Callipygian Christensen: /me nods.
Soro Dagostino: Bye all
Lilith Ivory: bye Soro
Arria Perreault: Bye bye all ?
Callipygian Christensen: I will schedule a follow up meeting to address the sturcture of the hearing.
Lilith Ivory: bye all who are leaving
Callipygian Christensen: With Soro and Aliasi gone, and considering the time c- I suggest that the next two items are not urgent and can be addressed at the next meeting.
Lilith Ivory: I agree
Callipygian Christensen: and with Arria gone, we have no choice but to do so
Lilith Ivory: /me laughs
Callipygian Christensen: Since we are no longer quorate, I call this meeting closed.