9 June SC Meeting Transcript

[Delia Lake]

Arria Perreault: yes, the meeting where the LRA was elected
Danton Sideways: so wellcome, Soro
StuiChicanne Darkstone: well it's not strange that
StuiChicanne Darkstone:
Soro Dagostino: Thank you.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: let's not cry over spilt milk
Claude Desmoulins: If so, then with due respect to all the MRA sitting here, the responsibility for the lack of discussion rests with the RA.
Danton Sideways: Well the timing was very poor
Danton Sideways: elections and all
Claude Desmoulins: Granted, it did create additional challenge.
Danton Sideways: SC nominations should be made during the term
Delia Lake: and in fact, the RA has had 2 meetings. Soro's certification was on the agenda for the last meeting of the 12th RA
StuiChicanne Darkstone: ha that went inquorate too Dee
Arria Perreault: Stui has chaired this meeting and there was no quorum
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I remember because I was LRA thingee sit in spare wheelus
Callipygian Christensen: You areon my lap Jamie
Delia Lake: that the RA neither had a quorum nor raised the issue at that meeting does not invalidate NL 4-8
Jamie Palisades: There are worse fates - but let's see what I can do
Callipygian Christensen: next chair over to the left is free
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I'm pleased for Soro
Delia Lake: Moving on, I would like to welcome to this meeting and to nominate Callipygian Christensen to the SC
StuiChicanne Darkstone:
Delia Lake: over the past month i have had extensive conversations with Calli about the CDS process of government
Delia Lake: she has read our constitution and many laws, discussions on the Forum
Delia Lake: we have had discussions about these
Notary Desk: Passed self test.
Delia Lake: Calli is also an active member of the CDS community, having most recently curated and hosted the photo exhibit and contest
Bagheera Kristan: and did a lovely job
Arria Perreault: it's useful to be a SC member ...
Indicator Board (Business Ver): Pip Torok is offline!
Delia Lake: Calli, would you like to introduce yourself to the rest of the SC as i do not know how well you are aquainted with them and them with you
Callipygian Christensen: thank you
Callipygian Christensen: Certainly..although Iam not sure what you would like to know
Callipygian Christensen: I have been a resident in SL for over 4 years
Callipygian Christensen: I have become more active here in the CDS since last fall - my interests lie with art and music primarily
Callipygian Christensen: I am interested in the SC because I beleive in checks and balances
Delia Lake: and my fellow SC, please do feel free to ask questions of Calli
Claude Desmoulins listens.
Callipygian Christensen: Yes, please feel free
Danton Sideways: I must admit I only recognise the name, but have little knowledge of the person
Bagheera Kristan: Calli, what does being on the SC mean for you? How do you see yourself as a contributor?
Callipygian Christensen: Bagheera, it is no secret that there is currently a lot of turmoil in the CDS
Danton Sideways: Were you involved in Al Andalus before the merger?
Callipygian Christensen: To be frank, much of it is quite unflattering to all the parties involved, and accomplishes little
Indicator Board (Business Ver): Pip Torok is online!
Arria Perreault: Calli, how deep is your knowledge of our Constitution?
Callipygian Christensen: My interest is in seeing a strong SC as the objective voice that interprets the Constitution, in the hope that thiswill help bring things to a more civil place
Arias Ahren: Calli you say that much of the rhetoric is unflattering. Could you be more specific?
Claude Desmoulins: Most of the members of the SC have a history in the "CDS political class". As someone not usually associated with that group, what does that lack of "political history" mean as relates to your interest and qualifications?
Callipygian Christensen: Danton, no, I was not involved with AA prior to the merger. What time I spent here tended to be at events in CDS as it exised then
Delia Lake: if you please, give priority at this time to the questions of the SC as these people will have to vote on your nomination
Danton Sideways: Normally the candidates to SC have been around CDS for long enough to get well known
Jamie Palisades: 1Got this and the query about Founders -- sorry, will have answers for you on both of thee later today/tonight (Wedndesay). regards jamie
Jamie Palisades: (misfire, sorry)
Callipygian Christensen: ok..I am reading back to deal in order, bear with me please
Danton Sideways: lol
StuiChicanne Darkstone: *hands Dee his toy gavel*
Danton Sideways: Jamie
Jamie Palisades: (Never mind me Danton, I mistyped)
Callipygian Christensen: Arria - not as deep as I would like, and that issomething I will spend 30 days or so on I would guess it is as good as many residents, better than some, less than others.
Danton Sideways: I hope to get to know you better
Danton Sideways: still I'm tempted to pass on this nomination, due to my ignorance of the person
Danton Sideways: I mean abstain
Callipygian Christensen: Arias - the jibes and personal battles that flare up in theforum, hether with factual reason or not, are just that - personal- and I think refplect the passion people have for this place, but not in a constrctive way.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: that's a shame
Callipygian Christensen: May I answer Claude?
Delia Lake: one of the things you said to me Calli, and i'm paraphrasing here, is that you care about this community, you want it do to well, you believe in fairness and you would like to contribute to having this be a fair and democratic society
Callipygian Christensen smiles. Yes, I did say - and beleive- that
Delia Lake: and you prefer to do this in a nonpartisan way
Callipygian Christensen: well I can answer Claude and you at the same time
Delia Lake: yes please
StuiChicanne Darkstone: it's like being on a george foreman *LOL*
Callipygian Christensen: I feel that my lack of history inn any of the factions is a benefit. While I do have freinds here, I do not have political affiliations andtherefore have no vested interest in specific outcomes
Arria Perreault: what means democracy for you, Calli?
Delia Lake: Soro, i realize you are yourself new to the SC but do you have any questions for Calli?
Soro Dagostino: I have huge lag.
Soro Dagostino: Listening.
Delia Lake: there is a bit of lag today
Jamie Palisades: If selected, Calli, will you fix lag, please?
Jamie Palisades smiles
Danton Sideways:
Callipygian Christensen: Arria, for me democracy means that all are heard, all have the opportunity through various channels to bring about change or to forward their ideas, and that at the end of the proces actions taken reflect the will of the majority (which means that often a part of the poulation will not be happy)
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I'll pass around the steakhouse pepper dusting
StuiChicanne Darkstone: Calli is almost done
StuiChicanne Darkstone: 7-8 mins for steak
Claude Desmoulins: Calli, one more thing. Most SC nominees have a corpus of forum posts or blog posts (thinking of Danton) that gives a glimpse into how they think about CDS issues. Do you blog anywhere about your SL experiences or have anywhere on the web the kind of thing that would help those of us who don't know you get that insight?
Callipygian Christensen: Jamie, unfortunately I have no affilliations wiht the LL factions either ..so lagstays
Arias Ahren: is that no long the case
Arias Ahren: Calli: rose told me aawhile back that you were the director of her galleries
Callipygian Christensen: Claude, no, I do not. I would be happy to meet informally and discuss with any of you though.
Soro Dagostino: Point of information?
Delia Lake: i might add for the record that when i joined the SC i did not have much sl related blog history. i had been an active member of the CDS community though
Arria Perreault: Calli, is it correct that you regularly are hired as DJ by the community (Individuals and CDS). Do you think it is compatible with your membership in SC?
Callipygian Christensen: Arias, I am moving my main gallery to the arts area of AL Garnata - so that is my gallery. I also, as was mentioned, am curating in the main hall for now. Curator would perhaps be a better word
Arias Ahren: Is that not significant involvements with AA
Soro Dagostino: Delia -- Point of information?
Delia Lake: yes, Soro>
Soro Dagostino: Is the SC to vote on this nomination?
Callipygian Christensen: Arria, yes I am, but I am not sure how that is incompatible? I can as easily not provide music here if that is a concern.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: is AA not part of CDS as equal as CDS ?
Delia Lake: Arria, if you have more questions for Calli you may ask them in the RA provided we pass her nomination to the RA
Arias Ahren: My concern is regarding possible conflicts of interest
Delia Lake: do my fellow SC members feel that they have enough information to vote on Calli's nomination?
StuiChicanne Darkstone: and a DJ is playing music... it's not a suggestion that she may be playing at being a politically involved lady - she may be serious and good at the task if given the chance
StuiChicanne Darkstone: and a bit of positive support
Soro Dagostino: Call the question.
Arria Perreault: so many people have talked during the RA meeting that I have chaired that I feel authorized to speak here too ...
StuiChicanne Darkstone: ha I speak at the RA meetings that AP chairs
StuiChicanne Darkstone: she loves it
Arria Perreault: not only you, Stui
Soro Dagostino: Non-debatable.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I have them wild in the aisles
Delia Lake: would anyone like to second my nomination of Calli to join us on the SC?
StuiChicanne Darkstone: and the seats sometimes have to be cleaned professionally
Soro Dagostino: Second
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I can't help being amusing
StuiChicanne Darkstone:
Claude Desmoulins: Soro, note that this is unstructured discussion, so we don't normally apply parlimentary rules.
Indicator Board (Business Ver): Pip Torok is away!
Indicator Board (Business Ver): Pip Torok is online!
Claude Desmoulins: I'm ready to vote.
Delia Lake: all in favor of nominating Calli please say aye
Claude Desmoulins: Aye
Soro Dagostino: Aye
Delia Lake: aye
Danton Sideways: Abstain
Delia Lake: thank you
Delia Lake: i will later today pass Calli's name on to Rose for certification by the RA
Delia Lake: next order of business for today is
Callipygian Christensen: Thank you everyone
Delia Lake: B. SC Petition alleging fault in the actions of CDS Chancellor, Sonja Strom, received from Kaseido Quandry, and Sonja's response
SEE: SC Discussion, http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2921
and http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=executive
Jamie Palisades smiles. Nice to hear some renewed interests in conflict of interest laws, too. Maybe the new RA can pass one.
Delia Lake smiles
Danton Sideways: It's complicated
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I think the renewed interest comes as a convenient response to anything that could be however tenuous a link to doubt
Delia Lake: we have received a petition from Kaseido Quandry regarding the actions of Sonja Strom as Chancellor during the recent election
StuiChicanne Darkstone: it's like trying to leap upon a mouse for a ride home from work
StuiChicanne Darkstone: on the off chance it might work
Delia Lake: specifically that Sonja granted use of the CDS group notice to people for personal election announcements
Delia Lake: given Kas's petition and Sonja's response, i would like to hear from the SC regarding the allegations first and any possible remedy second
Indicator Board (Business Ver): Carolyn Saarinen is online!
Claude Desmoulins: To put it gently, I believe the petition makes logical leaps, particularly in the assertion that granting posting rights to candidates is tantamount to intending that the violate the election law.
Danton Sideways: I thought someone was supposed to distribute notecards to all the candidates
Claude Desmoulins: There are uses of group notices that don't violate the law.
Danton Sideways: so I was surprised to receive campaign material from only 2 (or was it 3) candidates
Claude Desmoulins: Furthermore, all the incumbent members of the RA had access to group notices before Sonja did everything, and at least Pat used it to post election related notices.
Danton Sideways: There was an obvious malfunction there
Claude Desmoulins: The petition acknowledges that Delia sent information on the campaign rules. Delia is that correct?
Soro Dagostino: That's how I view it.
Arias Ahren: Good Jourist
Delia Lake: yes. i did post to the forum as well as inform the candidates
Arria Perreault: Is the SC aware that the Constitutionnal Amendment about Campaigning did not pass?
Delia Lake: yes, Arria, but the bill passed
Danton Sideways: No I wasn't
Claude Desmoulins: It would then seem to me that any and all responsibility for whatever violations may have occured rest with the candidates who made the postings.
Claude Desmoulins: Not until now, Arria.
Delia Lake: it was presented as both a consittutional ammendment and as a bill
Danton Sideways: Right now I remember
Claude Desmoulins: As we were trying to set these ground rules, the amendment was in a seven day vote period as I remember.
Delia Lake: the bill could pass with a simple majority
Arria Perreault: the bill was a precision of the amended article
Jamie Palisades: Delia, in all seriousness : it's for the SC to decide how much input is sought here -- so I am holding my tongue -- but as a citizen and as Sonja's predecessor, I would like to make a short comment on this one for the SC's information, after the main statements, if the SC is willing.
Delia Lake: yes please, Jamie. there are some missing pieces here for me re the Chancellor and granting permission to post to the CDS and AA groups
Claude Desmoulins: Then the constituion as it is makes no reference to group notices.
Claude Desmoulins: Since the amendment didn't pass.
Delia Lake: the constitution does not and neither does the web portal law
Delia Lake: so please, Jamie
Delia Lake: as former chancellor your input would be welcome
Arria Perreault: the two pieces were together
Claude Desmoulins: Does anyone have the text of the campaign rules bill which passed?
Jamie Palisades smiles.
Jamie Palisades: This actions discussed here possibly did give some candidates who acted quickly an advantage, to some unmeasurable degree.
But the allowed methods of campaign PR were being changed rapidly, at this time. *And* our laws and practices are *not* always clear about the rules for use of the group announcements, too.
It's tough for the executive branch to "do right" on the fly, and it seems to me she made a good faith effort to facilitate in the midst of all that change. She didn't give out access in some way designed to be unfairly prerferential. SI know that when I had her job I had to interpret a lot of laws (like where campaign materials can be placed, and how big they are) on the fly, using good faith and a hope that I was being approximately fair.
I see Sonja's actions as being in that same class: a good faith attempt to do the right thing against an uncertain background. The election results were not so luridly unusual as to suggest that, if there WAS unfairness, it was grave or dictated the outcome. I'd
Jamie Palisades: write this off, and hope for the sake of future SCs and Chancellors that ... we get more of the rules in writing earlier, next time.
Jamie Palisades: done.
Delia Lake: the ammendment and the bill have the identical text
Jamie Palisades: Thanks for the opportunity to comment.
Arria Perreault: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... ing#p15046
Arria Perreault: This bill operates in conjunction with Article IV, Section 4 of the CDS Constitution
Delia Lake: ty Jamie
Claude Desmoulins: It's notable that all members of the CDS group who were candidates had group notice access prior to the date the polls opened
Danton Sideways: Yes I think Sonja was acting in good faith
Danton Sideways: But the campaigning was very unequal
Indicator Board (Business Ver): Timo Gufler is offline!
Claude Desmoulins: But given that everyone had access by the 13th is that inequality Sonja's responsibility or the responsibility of the candidates who did and didn't follow the rules?
StuiChicanne Darkstone: well just so I can get my information out there in time and to gain full advantage I'll make sure that I pass my leaflets out now
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I'll give more to Sonja just in case
Claude Desmoulins: In the petition Kaseido implies that Sonja did wrong by granting access.
Delia Lake: to be absolutely picky here, the bill and ammendment state that the groups may not be used to solicit votes. it is questionable as to whether an announcement of an individual meet the candidate and notecard about position is actually a solicitation for vote rather than informing the public
Claude Desmoulins: This implies that Kas believes she ought not have done so.
Soro Dagostino: I don't believe there was any intent "to violate" the election laws by the Chancellor.
Claude Desmoulins: If sonja hadn't given access, the incumbents would have had it and the non incumbents wouldn't
Delia Lake: and neither use of nor granting of rights to use the groups are not covered specifically in the laws governing the Chancellor
Soro Dagostino: I believe Jamie's comments are spot on.
Claude Desmoulins: Isn't that more unequal than what we ended up with?
Delia Lake: the whole process of election of candidates was in flux
StuiChicanne Darkstone: It is tough to know how people will act unless you are told how they intend to use what you give them
Delia Lake: if anyone were actually disadvantaged in this process it would seem to have been Joaquin, and he did not file a complaint
StuiChicanne Darkstone: you can give someone a hammer and nails but you can't be responsible for them breaking a window with the hammer or putting nails on their mother in laws chair
Claude Desmoulins: And even Joaquin used the in world dispensers and had access to the AA group.
Kellie Wellesley: I read that all he had to do was join the group
Kellie Wellesley: I was reading the CDS forum this morning and I read thatt twice
Kellie Wellesley: Excuse me for butting in
Kellie Wellesley: Would that not make it not only fair but also appropriate that he would belong tho the group
Delia Lake: so my feeling here is that if anything Sonja may have been less fair than would be optimal as when she granted use of the group notices to muhammedyussif she did not at that time include all the other candidates, giving them the exact same privledges at the same time regardless of whether or not they had asked
Claude Desmoulins waits for the dean
Danton Sideways: That new law said you can't use CDS or AA groups to send campaign messages
Claude Desmoulins: That would have been ideal, as well as making earlier public announcement, but that's not what the petition before us addresses.
Delia Lake: the laws as written also give the SC discression to have handled this past election differently due to the lateness in the process of the changes
StuiChicanne Darkstone: what would be the outcome of finding fault upon this ?
Soro Dagostino: I move teh petition be dismissed.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: on account that the RA is elected now
Danton Sideways: There seems to have been total confusion - as usual
Claude Desmoulins: I'll second though not for the same reason as Soro.
Delia Lake: all in favor of dismissal of this petition, please say aye
Soro Dagostino: I yield . . . do you have a revision?
Claude Desmoulins: aye
Danton Sideways: What is Claude's reason?
Delia Lake: aye
Soro Dagostino: Aye
Danton Sideways: I wish I'd had more time to study this question properly
Soro Dagostino: No matter, it resolves the issue.
Claude Desmoulins: That the granting of group notice power is not illegal, therefore any responsibility for alleged campaign law violation lies with candidates not the chancellor.
Danton Sideways: I'll say aye, despite my reamining questions
Indicator Board (Business Ver): Pip Torok is away!
Danton Sideways: because I think Sonja was just trying to fill her role
Indicator Board (Business Ver): Pip Torok is online!
Danton Sideways: it's hard and thankless
Danton Sideways: being Chancellor
Soro Dagostino: Claude -- I agree, but that was not the point in the petition.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: yea look at what it did to Charlie brown I mean Gordon Brown
Delia Lake: this petition is dismissed. given we all have more questions here though i will draft a request to the RA regarding implementation of election campaigning laws
Claude Desmoulins: Especially given the failure of the amendment, clarification is needed.
Soro Dagostino: Agreed
Delia Lake: i btw was the one on whom most of the task of getting out candidate information fell this time and i can say with out a doubt that it will not be done in this same manner next election!
Sonja Strom can imagine...
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I'll hire dancing monkeys to spread the word of my candidacy
Arria Perreault: I think the SC should take a decision about the Bill
Arria Perreault: it needs some clairifications
Arria Perreault: (in a further meeting, of course)
Danton Sideways: whew!
Delia Lake: furthermore, i will send a formal note to the Chancellor and post a notice on the Forum re granting of permissions in the future re use of groups that if there are waivers given that they be granted fairly and equally
Delia Lake: ty
StuiChicanne Darkstone: 2 monkeys in a bath one says OOOH OOOH OOH the other says "would you like some cold in?"
Delia Lake: we are now at our hour point
Delia Lake: would it be ok with the rest of the SC to extend another 15 min?
Claude Desmoulins: Yes
Soro Dagostino: Yes
Danton Sideways: I'm ok for more than that
Delia Lake: the next item on the agenda is NL 5-6 and a request for investigation from Patroklus Murakami
Delia Lake: C. Review of NL 5-6, Estate Owner Act of 2006, and request to investigate election & NL 5-6 received from Patroklus Murakami
SEE: SC Discussion, http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2901
Notary Desk: Passed self test.
Delia Lake: and
StuiChicanne Darkstone: GOOD OLD PATTY
Soro Dagostino: I believe this petition takes some serious study . . . I move to table.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: where is Patty ?
Yekaterina Kalchek: May I make a point from the floor?
Soro Dagostino: There isn't enough time to throughly review.
Delia Lake: since the SC Dean has received requests from both current EO's for waivers from this law Recommendation to the SC from SC Dean that waivers to NL 5-6 be granted to both EO's: Sudane Erato and her registered alt Rudeen Edo, and Rose Springvale. Each of these EO's has requested waivers from the SC. Recommendation is that the waivers be retroactive and extend through 15 August 2010 (shortly beyond the end of July date for finalizing the merger) with an option to renew the waivers for both if needed.
Yekaterina Kalchek: Should Pat be here?
Danton Sideways: I'd like to at least discuss a bit
Claude Desmoulins: Point of information
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I miss Patty's sweet cheeks
Claude Desmoulins: 5-6 requires that any change of EO have a 90 day transition.
Delia Lake: Pat received notification of this meeting as did Kas
Claude Desmoulins: Even if the SC agrees with the petition nothing can happen for several months
Yekaterina Kalchek: In that case are they not oblifded to attend, even out of politeness to the SC?
Yekaterina Kalchek: obliged
Danton Sideways: It could go the other way tho
Claude Desmoulins: Remember where 5-6 came from.
Danton Sideways: Rose giving up bgeing on RA instead of giving up the EO role
Claude Desmoulins: Good point
StuiChicanne Darkstone: isn't the EO the non profit ?
Yekaterina Kalchek: Yes
StuiChicanne Darkstone: therefore Rose isn't the EO
Claude Desmoulins: The bill was wiritten before SL had non profits.
Delia Lake: I see so many problems with NL 5-6 that i hardly know where to start
Delia Lake: yes, Claude
StuiChicanne Darkstone: well put it in the bin and work it on it's merits
StuiChicanne Darkstone:
Claude Desmoulins: I think a better interpretation of EO in this context is any human being who could email LL and say move one of the estate sims.
Yekaterina Kalchek: what merits, Stui?
StuiChicanne Darkstone: good question Yeka
Claude Desmoulins: As regards AA, who has that power?
Soro Dagostino: I renew my Motion to Table.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I was under the impression there must be some for it to be brought here
Danton Sideways: I discussed this with Pat recently
Delia Lake: as written this law runs contrary to current LL policy
Claude Desmoulins: Can we refer to SC discussion forum instead?
Claude Desmoulins: so we can work on it,
Soro Dagostino: I yield to that.
Delia Lake: i think we need to take a very thorough look at this law
Danton Sideways: can I just transmit his message?
Delia Lake: and yes agree that we should discuss it on the SC Discussion
Delia Lake: and also recommend changes to the RA in a formal report as the output
Claude Desmoulins: Soro, which forum acct do you use? with or without undeerscore?
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I still think that the fact that the EO being the NP and that the NP has a board of 3 means no one member has more sway than the other so where's the issue one has the power to veto the choices of the others
StuiChicanne Darkstone: etc
Danton Sideways: I'd like to speak
Soro Dagostino: Claude -- IDK
Delia Lake: in the meantime, do we as is our right, grant waivers to both Sudane and her registered alt Rudeen, and Rose as current EO's as neither of them has a waiver currently?
Yekaterina Kalchek: I agree with Stui !
Delia Lake: yes, Danton?
Danton Sideways: What Pat told me in private was this
Yekaterina Kalchek: In private?
Danton Sideways: (I read very little of the forum disputes)
Danton Sideways: just the tow of us discussing
Danton Sideways: was that he would be ok with Rose staying EO and LRA
Danton Sideways: provided that she abstain from any discussions involving the non-profit
Danton Sideways: and related issues
Soro Dagostino: Objection!
Bagheera Kristan: May I say something?
Danton Sideways: Just reporting what he told me
Jamie Palisades smiles. If you'll forgive me: the communication from your two EOs to the SC, which Delia read out here, indicates that both are in technical violation of a law not enforced since 2006. I guess you could kick out Sudane as Treasurer too Doesn't sound like a practical approach. Maybe the 2006 anti-Ulrika law needs an update, instead. .. In any case, it may become moot as to the subject of Pat's complaint, and his new interest in bargining for a muzzle on his opponent: Rose's role as second EO may go away on 15 August if the local Alpine anti-merger forces here don't have their way.
Danton Sideways: He'd have to confirm it himself
StuiChicanne Darkstone: that's ridiculous
Claude Desmoulins: Although we're tabling, I'd like to raise the issue that the EO is supposed to take direction from the Chancellor and RA regarding sim management
StuiChicanne Darkstone: how can a member of the board on the NP not comment upon the Non Profit
StuiChicanne Darkstone: that's like asking a eunuch to be a father
Yekaterina Kalchek: Exactly Stui
Claude Desmoulins: If the EO is a member of the RA which can remove the chancellor, to what extent does that undemine the chancellor's authority over the eo?
Bagheera Kristan: I think Claude has the gist of it
Yekaterina Kalchek: you cant gag Rose on matters so intehgral to her work here
Yekaterina Kalchek: integral
Claude Desmoulins: In that sense, I think Sudane's and Rose's situations differ in important respects.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: frankly if I had said eunuch's bollocks I would present them as an adequate representation of this suggestion *LOL*
Delia Lake: Claude there are so many many issues here that this needs to be sorted out in a sensible way. i expect it will be a fairly lengthy process
Claude Desmoulins: Although the Non profit may make the whole thing moot.
Delia Lake: to give us time to do all this properly
Claude Desmoulins: So to the forums then?
Pip Torok: thats precisely why I raised the question of Rose's suitability as LRA!
Claude Desmoulins: Soro, you should now have post rights in SC discussion.
Jamie Palisades: One vote, claude out of 13? Anyone who thinks the LRA can control the RA .. well .. (smile). Maybe you want to let her know now that after the merger, the SC is thinking that a further waiver is unlikely.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: it's ludicrous that the assumption is that the other two on the board wouldn't represent impartiality as the other 2 thirds of the EO
Claude Desmoulins: Jamie. didn't say that.
Delia Lake: i move that we today grant to both Rose and Sudane/Rudeen a waiver from NL 5-6 to be in effect retroactively and to expire on 15 August 2010 unless we the SC renews these waivers at that time.
Soro Dagostino: TY Claude.
Soro Dagostino: Second.
Jamie Palisades: Stui, the NP isn't the EO. An avatar is, that's a limit of Linden Labs rules.
Delia Lake: is there a second for my motion?
Claude Desmoulins: Stui, I'm not yet certain that all the members of the VDI board can perform eo functions.
Soro Dagostino: Seconded
Claude Desmoulins: Soro seconded
StuiChicanne Darkstone: perhaps on a functional level within SL
StuiChicanne Darkstone: but
Delia Lake: all in favor please say aye
Kellie Wellesley: So Avatars aren't people in SL?
Soro Dagostino: Aye
Claude Desmoulins: aye
Delia Lake: aye
Danton Sideways: Aye
StuiChicanne Darkstone: you think that Rose would be able to function in any other way other than in agreement with the NP board ?
StuiChicanne Darkstone: common sense suggests otherwise
Delia Lake: I will notify Rose and Sudane that they now have waivers
Claude Desmoulins: And were that the case, action against rose by the rest of the vdi board would likely supercede anything cds might do.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I work upon the assumption that people are trustworthy until proven otherwise normally
Delia Lake: and the SC will move this discussion with links to LL policy to the SC Discussion on the Forum
Claude Desmoulins: Let;s hope the RA takes the opportunity to look at this very out of date law.
Soro Dagostino: So should SC
Delia Lake: yes! we will make a formal report of our findings here
Delia Lake: and pass that on to the RA
Claude Desmoulins: Do we have time for forum moderation?
Delia Lake: i do have time if the rest do
Delia Lake: should we continue to that item?
Soro Dagostino: yes --
Yekaterina Kalchek: Will you excuse me. Getting on for 1 am and I have wroking day ahead.
Yekaterina Kalchek: Thank you for allowing me to spak and listen
Delia Lake: ty for coming, Kat
Claude Desmoulins: I have a few minutes.
Soro Dagostino: But since I was the recipient of the verbal abuse -- I abstain.
Delia Lake: D. Complaints of lack of civility and violations of Forum Guidelines in CDS Forum posts.
SEE: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?p=36#36
Article 6. Moderation Policy
Arias Ahren: In what way wre you a recipiant of verbal abuse Soro
Delia Lake: in order to have a civil society, there must be civility in discourse
Delia Lake: the responsibility for moderating the cds forum has been handed to the SC
Delia Lake: it is my personal opinion that we should do this in a manner that allows for expression of opinion but does not allow discussions to degenerate into personal attacks
Pip Torok: (hear hear)
Delia Lake: personal issues between persons may be brought to the SC for mediation and resolution but they do not belong on the Forum as it currently is set up
StuiChicanne Darkstone: the trouble with my experience of CDS is that some people have very low tolerance levels to humour or direct speech
Bagheera Kristan:
Claude Desmoulins: I'd like to raise what I feel is an important question. Rose alleges that the postings damage her RL reputation. I don't think that the SC can do anything to protect RL reputation.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: do we work to wrap the whole thing in cotton wool ?
Delia Lake: the forum is set up for issues based discussion
StuiChicanne Darkstone: or do I apply for my gag now ?
Claude Desmoulins: There are many wasy to protect the RL reputation outside of SL or CDS.
Soro Dagostino: Sue LL for failure to enforce the TOS?
Delia Lake: i'm not sure that we need to make a distinction between rl and sl reputation here regarding the forum
Danton Sideways: It's well known that internet forums need moderation
Pip Torok has faith in Stui's ability to talk directly without attacking personalities ....
Danton Sideways: But SC seems unable to fill this role - you would have to name a forum moderator
Delia Lake: the distinction we need to be making is between issues based differences of opinion and personal attacks one on another
Claude Desmoulins: The request addresses specifically the posts in the regional commission thread, correct?
Delia Lake: the request is to delete posts
Delia Lake: no redress other than that
Danton Sideways: I suggest that the solution is for the RA to name a forum moderator
CLEOPATRA Xigalia gasps
Arria Perreault: noooo
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: mind control?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: nothing bad written about rose?
Arria Perreault: the forum is under the SC control
Delia Lake: the moderation of the forum is given to the sc
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: im sorry what are you doing people.. lol
Delia Lake: we could appoint a single individual
Arria Perreault: separation of branches are a basis for the democracy
Danton Sideways: it is a well documented social function, and not to be confursedwith censorship
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I am just wondering who is accused of attacking whom here ?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i cant take this is pathetic
Delia Lake: CLEO the agenda is in the books behind you
Claude Desmoulins: Wait, the forum moderation policies in place state that deletion will only take place if the post violates LL guidelines.
Danton Sideways: the moderator has to ANIMATE the discussions
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: yes well.. im attacking you all for having no sense okay
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: bye
Danton Sideways: factilitate them
Delia Lake: the other issue here is regarding LL policy on privacy
Danton Sideways: its not a matter of coming from the outside to delete things
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I think perhaps we need to define protected interests
Claude Desmoulins: Other options are formal warning, suspension or revocation of posting rights.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: such as personal details from RL
StuiChicanne Darkstone: as that relates to safety
Delia Lake: is it permitted for anyone on the forum or in public discussion to insist that another person post private conversations or post information regarding rl identity
Delia Lake: we have these recording devices because to post our chatlog otherwise without consent would violate LL policy on privacy
Danton Sideways: if its' a matter of violation of SL TOR, that's another question...
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I'm not scared of being insulted as such... some total nut on the metro already did that to me without much concern at the top of his voice so that everyone was in no doubt as to my lifestyle *LOL*
Danton Sideways: TOS
Pip Torok: imho that is directly against the TOS ...
Danton Sideways: right
Claude Desmoulins: Let's be clear that Arias offered to post them, but did not.
Danton Sideways: I'd agree with deletion then
Bagheera Kristan: correct - he did not
Claude Desmoulins: The posts are I believe 7:54 pm on June 4 and 2:33 am June 5
Claude Desmoulins: correct
Delia Lake: yes
Danton Sideways: excuse me - brb
Claude Desmoulins: In the 2;33 post Arias accuses Rose of lying and calls on her to allow transcripts to be posted.
Danton Sideways: I think our forum has needed a moderator for a long time
Claude Desmoulins: If that's deletable then we need to delete all the posts that criticize AA citizen meetings for lack of transcript, don't we?
Danton Sideways: but why reinvent the wheel - it is a well -documented function
Danton Sideways: that a committee cannot fill
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I think we can allow people to ask for something but not to label people
Kellie Wellesley: IT says in the guidelines that there are 5 moderators already
StuiChicanne Darkstone: labelling is a bad thing
Kellie Wellesley: Apparantly Claude is one of them
Claude Desmoulins: I read the latter post of accusing rose of dishonesty. That's criticizing actions, not the person. What am I missing?
Arias Ahren: I did not post the transcripts out of respect for roses objections for my doing so.
Delia Lake: there also is to my mind some holes between the sc charge of moderating the forum and the duties assigned to the exec in the web portal act
StuiChicanne Darkstone: after all I could be called, heaven forbid Str8 Stui... but they tend to like to call me Gay or disruptive *LOL*
Delia Lake: NL 7-3
Delia Lake: so Claude, let me play devil's advocate here
Danton Sideways: the moderator has to LIVE on the forum
Danton Sideways: huge time comittment
Delia Lake: and this has no base in fact whatsoever
Delia Lake: but say that you really want a cat. i say to you in private im that i think i can get you a cat and go on to ask you what color, how old, what kind of fur....
Delia Lake: to the point that you are really looking forward to that cat
Delia Lake: then later in public conversation, you ask me when you will get your cat
Delia Lake: but in our private conversation i did not actually say i had a cat but just that i might be able to do that
Delia Lake: you might then believe i had lied to you
Delia Lake: regardless though, you would not have a right in sl to post our private conversation
Claude Desmoulins: Agreed.
Delia Lake: maybe not the best example
Bagheera Kristan: the private conversation was not posted, though...?
Claude Desmoulins: But would I have the right to publicly criticize you over the private conversation if I didn't post it?
Delia Lake: we cannot post private conversation without consent in sl
Claude Desmoulins: Or does the privacy of the initial conversation make the whole topic verboten?
Arias Ahren: Would it be possible for me to prepare a transcript of those private conversations and present them to the SC
Claude Desmoulins: Not w/o Rose's consent.
Arias Ahren: kk
Delia Lake: you would have the right to criticize me but not the right to insist that i give you permission to post our private conversation
Arias Ahren: ok
Pip Torok: but wdnt the moderator be ablem to criticise the attack even though he/she wasnt in possesssion of the full facts?
Delia Lake: and if you insisted, would that be harrassment and against the moderation guidelines?
Delia Lake: these are our questions
Claude Desmoulins: Posters are often given the opportunity to edit postings which transgres, before they are deleted.
Bagheera Kristan: When one is up for public office, criticism happens...one need only read the RA transcripts to see all sorts of things said in public on re
Claude Desmoulins: *transgress
Bagheera Kristan: .cord00
Bagheera Kristan: (sorry, cat sat on keyboard)
Pip Torok: (naughty puss!:)
Danton Sideways: transgress what - SL TOS?
Claude Desmoulins: forum guidelines
Danton Sideways: ok
Delia Lake: btw. i have at least temporarily locked that section of the postings on the forum, the ones under question
Danton Sideways: So there have been deletions in the past?
Delia Lake: a person can edit or delete their own postings, yes
Callipygian Christensen: If I might make a comment here-I don't believe there is any way to ensure accuracy of transcripts of logs of SL chat unless they are provided by Linden Lab itself, or by both parties in any dispute and are seen to be identical.
Delia Lake: very good point, Calli
Claude Desmoulins: Deleting the posts is kind of a nuclear option and put us in the place of having RL legal responsibility for forum contents.
Claude Desmoulins: I can only stay another five minutes., btw,
Danton Sideways: oooh
Claude Desmoulins: Doesn't it?
Danton Sideways: legal responsabilty
Danton Sideways: that's a big weigth on an avatar!
Delia Lake: if someone repeatedly griefed on the forum that person could be removed as a registered participant able to post
Pip Torok: in one sense anyone moderating a Forums post is outside SL and so is longer an avatar ...
Delia Lake: yes and no, Pip
Pip Torok: longer=no longer
Claude Desmoulins: Is Arias willing to edit the posts?
Danton Sideways: it's still pretty virtual
Arias Ahren: What does a citizen do when factious alligations are made against them or absurd insuitation such as being a rekigious group attempting to take control of CDS?
Danton Sideways: unless you run the server
Delia Lake: according to our forum guidelines the sl discussion guidelines also apply
Danton Sideways: which brings us back to Gwyn
Arias Ahren: I had intended on editing the posts
Arias Ahren: but some of the more germain posts iinvolve insults agains many
Claude Desmoulins: If the posts are edited does not that solve the problem?
Arias Ahren: Perhaps
Arias Ahren: I can try
Delia Lake: i would think that that would in this case, Claude
Delia Lake: right now they are locked. one of us can unlock them
Claude Desmoulins: Keeping in mind that we're talking about 7:54 and 2:33, so let's at least give Arias ...48 hours to edit them so they are in compliance w/ guidelines?
Arias Ahren: Rose has remove most of her posts
Claude Desmoulins: If that doesn't happen, take it up on SC forum moderation appeals?
Delia Lake: that sounds good. perhaps, and this is a suggestion, since the thread is about roman sims cultural meetings, anything that doesn't directly bear on or forward that discussion might be removed from that thread? as it doesn't really fit there
Claude Desmoulins: Yes.
Indicator Board (Business Ver): StuiChicanne Darkstone is offline!
Delia Lake: i will then unlock the thread
Claude Desmoulins: Sorry but I have to go.
Soro Dagostino: As do I.
Delia Lake: i move that we adjorn this SC meeting
Soro Dagostino: Second
Delia Lake: in favor?
Delia Lake: aye
Claude Desmoulins: aye
Soro Dagostino: Aye
Danton Sideways: Aye
Delia Lake: thank you all very much for your service here today
Danton Sideways: Thank you Delia
Bagheera Kristan: thank you all
Sonja Strom: thanks everybody
Callipygian Christensen: Delia, I have some thoughts on moderation, based on some groups I've been in in the past. I'd be happy to write down for you to circulate to the SC.
Delia Lake: yes please, Calli. that would be most welcome
Claude Desmoulins: Thanks all.
Danton Sideways: Byee
Arria Perreault: bye
Callipygian Christensen: goodbye to those leaving