Callipygian Christensen: Good morning everyone - you should all have just received, or be receiving, notification that all chat here is being recorded
Lilith Ivory: Hi Trebor
Shep Titian: Hi Treb
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: hi cornies dad
Trebor Warcliffe: Hi everyone
Callipygian Christensen: I am not feeling well today, so we'll go ahead and get started , we are quorate without Arria
Callipygian Christensen: I call this meeting to order
Tor Karlsvalt: /me scuttles plans for a group shot of the SC.
Callipygian Christensen: Is the agenda acceptable to everyone?
Aliasi Stonebender: seems okay to me.
Lilith Ivory: yes it is 
Soro Dagostino: Looks complete.
Callipygian Christensen: then we'll record it as adopted as published
Callipygian Christensen: Item 1 Clarification of law
Callipygian Christensen: The posting of this is here:
Callipygian Christensen: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4759
Ceasar Xigalia: Hi Spider
JerryDon Lane: Mornin Spider
Callipygian Christensen: This is structured discussion so each SC member will give their thoughts in order
Catz Jewell: Hi Spider
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: yay
Callipygian Christensen: Aliasi, would you begin?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: arria is here
Lilith Ivory: Hi Arria
Ceasar Xigalia: Hi Arria
Callipygian Christensen: Hi Arria
Tor Karlsvalt: Yay!!!! Welcome Arria!
Arria Perreault: Hi everybody ?
Aliasi Stonebender: The point of contention would seem to be a very badly worded bit of law. Given historical precedent, I believe the clear intention is "A chancellor serves until a new chancellor is elected, but the transfer of office is identical with that of the RA". Since the other alternative is "we have a gap where we have no chancellor" which seems nonsensical and contrary to actual practice.
Callipygian Christensen: Let me know if you are done Aliasi?
Shep Titian: Hi Pat
Rosie Gray: hi Pat
Patroklus Murakami: hey all
Spider22997 Upshaw: hi Pat
Ceasar Xigalia: Hi Pat
Pip Torok: hi Pat!
Arria Perreault: Hi Pat ?
Aliasi Stonebender: I'm done, sorry.
Callipygian Christensen: Thanks Aliasi - we'll move to Lilith and give Arria a chnace to get settled
Callipygian Christensen: Lilith?
Lilith Ivory: first of all I agree with what Aliasi said ...
Lilith Ivory: but as the laws are not contradictory both seem to be valid at the moment
Lilith Ivory: unfortunately this means we have a time without having an active chancellor and I would highly recomend the RA works on that law so it gets changed in the future
Lilith Ivory: done
Callipygian Christensen: thank you Lilith - Soro next.
Soro Dagostino: I believe Aliasi's statement of the problem is correct.
Soro Dagostino: However I don't agree the two provisions are compatible.
Soro Dagostino: In every system of laws, except the most outlier, constitutional precedes legislative.
Soro Dagostino: That creates a conflict.
Soro Dagostino: I suggest that the RA simply modify the law to say that the office commences as stated in the constitution and the swearing in, at the time of the ceremony for the RA.
Soro Dagostino: Done.
Tor Karlsvalt: Hi Ariel.
Callipygian Christensen: thank you Soro - Arria?
Rosie Gray: /me smiles at Ariel
Ariel Lancaster: /me smiles. Sorry about "dropping in" as I did!
Arria Perreault: I agree with Aliasi and Soro and with the suggestion that the RA should make some adjustements in the wordings
Arria Perreault: In my point of view, the idea of the law is clear.
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: /me raises hand
Arria Perreault: Our elections cycles are organized in terms that are the same for the Executive and the Legislative Branches
Arria Perreault: Done
Callipygian Christensen: (This is stuructured discussion and all SC members will be hear in total before those attending are invited to speak)
Callipygian Christensen: *heard
Callipygian Christensen: thank you Arria
Callipygian Christensen: While it is quite unlikely that RA would choose to leave a gap, and indeed, Gwyn has said that was not the intention, it is not in the powers of the SC to decide what 'intentions' were. If the law and Constitution were in conflict, - if one said 'on the 14th' and the other 'not before the 15th' we would of course uphold whichever the Constitution said.
Callipygian Christensen: This is not the case here - the two *can* both be applied without conflict, just with an unfortunate outcome. The SC does not have the powers to decide 'that isn't a good outcome' or 'that isn't what was meant' - we interpret what is written.
Callipygian Christensen: I believe that leaves un one option - to uphold that both stand until such time as the RA amends one, the other, or both.
Callipygian Christensen: Do any SC members have anything further to add, or wish to debate any of the points raised?
Soro Dagostino: /me raises hand
Callipygian Christensen: Go ahead Soro
Soro Dagostino: I disagree with you madame Dean. I believe the SC can rule that the constitution prevails.
Soro Dagostino: It has the power to resolve that conflict.
Aliasi Stonebender: I concur with Soro. This is a milder case of any other law that contradicts the constitution.
JerryDon Lane: raises hand
Aliasi Stonebender: I think the implication is all three branches of the government are present in effect.
Callipygian Christensen: In my view, there is no actual contradiction - there is A followed by B - and both are able to exist - one addresses an end -the other a beginning - unfortunately with a gap in the middle.
Callipygian Christensen: Lilith, Arria, any further thoughts?
Lilith Ivory: not at the moment
Callipygian Christensen: Arria?
Callipygian Christensen: I don't see Arria typing
Arria Perreault: /me raises hand
Arria Perreault: CDSL 13-05 Chancellor Election Act
Chancellors are elected for a 6-month term and can hold at most two terms in succession.
Chancellor terms start simultaneously with the Representative Assembly terms.
Arria Perreault: And what is a term is clearly defined in the Constitution
Arria Perreault: I think that we can admit that the term is the same for the Chancellor and the RA
Callipygian Christensen: /me nods
Arria Perreault: and same rules apply
Callipygian Christensen: That would suggest that the Chancellor *begins* office on June 1
Callipygian Christensen: (in this case)
Arria Perreault: Anyway we have a lot of contradictions in our code of laws ...
Arria Perreault: I believe that the Chancellor begins office the same day than the RA
Arria Perreault: during the period before this day, we have a Chancellor in office and an elected Chancellor
Arria Perreault: which is very common in many democratic countries
Arria Perreault: done
Arria Perreault: (not bad to adapt the laws anyway)
Soro Dagostino: /me raises hand
Callipygian Christensen: Thnak you Arria -but I believe we do NOT have a Chancellor in office until then - the constitution states that the chancellor's term *ends* with the *election* of a new Chancellor
Callipygian Christensen: We can recommend the RA fix this, but it is not the SC's role to do so
Callipygian Christensen: Soro?
Arria Perreault: It means that we can held two separates elections with different dates
Arria Perreault: until now we organized simultaneous elections
Soro Dagostino: I submit that was my suggestion -- with the SC noting the Constitution prevails over a conflicting law.
Lilith Ivory: /me raises her hand
Callipygian Christensen: ok, if we are at the stage of repeating - we'll listen to those who raised their hand with a reminder to stay on topic and brief please. Cleo?
Callipygian Christensen: OH Lilith..sorry..I was typing - will you wait until Cleo and Jerry have spoken please?
Soro Dagostino: Point of order.
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: ty
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: /me waits for soro
Callipygian Christensen: Soro?
Lilith Ivory: no porblem as I just wanted to repeat what has been said before
Soro Dagostino: The Sc member has the right to speak first.
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: agreed soro
Callipygian Christensen: ok Lilith - thank you
Arria Perreault: /me raises : I still have a remark ... later
Callipygian Christensen: Cleo?
Tor Karlsvalt: Hi Ludo
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: Respectfully,now if soro is right, then the SC would now be able to clarify the constitution and either add to it, or say it ?implies the next term begins?. Is that correct.?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: done
Callipygian Christensen: Jerry?
JerryDon Lane: Thanks
JerryDon Lane: The constitution is the law of the land. Whenever a law is passed or actions taken contrary to our constitution, those laws and/or actions are simply unconstitutional and null and void under the law....Soro is most correct, IMHO.....Thanks...finished
Callipygian Christensen: Arria?
Arria Perreault: The Constitution mentions also a vacancy of the position of a Chancellor. If the terms are not the same than the terms of the RA, what are the terms of the position of the Chancellor ? Either we admit they are the same than the ones of the RA or we say that they are not the same and the RA has to determine them
Arria Perreault: done
Callipygian Christensen: A reminder to those attending who wish to speak to please be frief and stay on topicI don't think we disagree that this needs to be addressed
Callipygian Christensen: oops!
Callipygian Christensen: I also will mention again that the role of the SC is not to 'fix' this in our decision - but to uphold, one, the other, or both of these.
Callipygian Christensen: We will of course request that the incoming RA address this.
Callipygian Christensen: So the question,, as posted on the Forum is this:
Callipygian Christensen: CDSL 13-04 (Constitutional)
2 The Chancellor will serve a term ending with the election of the next Chancellor
negate
CDSL 13-05 (Law)
2 Chancellor terms start simultaneously with the Representative Assembly terms
or must both be applied, leaving CDS without a Chancellor for two weeks in every election cycle.
Callipygian Christensen: The motion for that would be : Move that we uphold both CDSL 13-04 (Constitutional) and CDSL 13-05 (Law) as valid.
Callipygian Christensen: Does anyone wish to move that, or does someone have an alternate motion they wish to move?
Soro Dagostino: /me
Soro Dagostino: raises hand
Soro Dagostino: ((sorry))
Callipygian Christensen: Soro - go ahead
Soro Dagostino: I disagree that the legislation is valid. I believe it to be in conflict with the consitutional provision.
Soro Dagostino: If we have no power, as the Dean suggest, then we cannot uphold or negate any law.
Callipygian Christensen: Clearly we disagree on that If the law said anythng about the *end* of the prvious term I would agree
Callipygian Christensen: but the Consitutional amendment addressed one thing, the law something different - the beggining of the term.
Callipygian Christensen: We can go on disagreeing all day - but I think at this point it is time for a motion
Arria Perreault: I second your montion, Calli
Arria Perreault: motion*
Callipygian Christensen: Ok Arria
Callipygian Christensen: then the motion is:
Callipygian Christensen: Move that we uphold both CDSL 13-04 (Constitutional) and CDSL 13-05 (Law) as valid.
Callipygian Christensen: All in favour say Aye
Arria Perreault: Aye
Callipygian Christensen: Aye
Lilith Ivory: Aye
Callipygian Christensen: All agasinst say Nay
Soro Dagostino: Nay
Aliasi Stonebender: Nay
Callipygian Christensen: The motion carries - both COnsitution and Law are upheld - may I, on behalf of the SC,urge the RA to fix this?
Widget Whiteberry: /me raises hand
Callipygian Christensen: SC members - are we agreed to a formal request to the RA to fix this?
Lilith Ivory: yes!
Arria Perreault: yes
Callipygian Christensen: I will do so.
Callipygian Christensen: Before we move on..Widget?
Widget Whiteberry: with great respect to this body, it seems to me that the constitution and the law address two aspects of the same matter: the transition from the outgoing Chancellor to the incoming Chancellor.
Widget Whiteberry: thank you
Callipygian Christensen: Onward - but there is a time issue now. This last item took muchlonger than expected - the next will be equally long and is a discussion matter, not a vote.
Callipygian Christensen: Would the SC consider a motin to move Item 2 to the agenda of the next meeting, to allow it suitable time?
Soro Dagostino: So move
Callipygian Christensen: Discussion can also proceeed on the SC Discussion Forum in between
Arria Perreault: aye
Callipygian Christensen: all in favour?
Lilith Ivory: aye
Soro Dagostino: aye
Aliasi Stonebender: aye
Callipygian Christensen: thank you - Item 2 moves to the next meeting
Callipygian Christensen: Old Business
Callipygian Christensen: standardized notecard for petiitons - I believe Arria has distibuted this to everyone?
Arria Perreault: Did you get it ?
Aliasi Stonebender: I did, certainly.
Lilith Ivory: yes
Callipygian Christensen: Since it was sent out this morning, I believe the mebers will need time to review it and make comments
Arria Perreault: (and texts improvements 
)
Callipygian Christensen: LOL Arria - we can do that to I suggest we review and send Arria suggestions for editing if needed and be ready to adopt at the next meeting?
Arria Perreault: I agree
Pip Torok: (I didnt)
Lilith Ivory: fine with me
Soro Dagostino: That's good.
Callipygian Christensen: ok..SC members, please review the draft and send any suggestions to Arria.
Callipygian Christensen: It will come up for adoption at the next meeting.
Widget Whiteberry: /me looks for appropriate forum links
Arria Perreault: Should I paste it in the forums ?
Callipygian Christensen: For those attending - this is a draft of a stadard form for submitting a petition
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: nice.
Callipygian Christensen: Having one will make it easier for new people to know waht to do..since it is a draft, it isnt published anywhere
Callipygian Christensen: Arria, I think it enough to post it to forums when it is complete and adopted
Arria Perreault: ok
Widget Whiteberry: /me raises hand
Callipygian Christensen: Widget?
Widget Whiteberry: Are SC matters all meant to be posted here> http://forums.slcds.info/viewforum.php?f=16
Widget Whiteberry: in a dedicated thread?
Widget Whiteberry: thread might be the wrong word
Callipygian Christensen: The judiciary thread you are pointing to is not the SC's forums..
Widget Whiteberry: nods
Callipygian Christensen: SC notices are posted in the SC notice forum..SC Discussion is held in the SC discussion forum, with only the SC able to post there
Widget Whiteberry: where do citizen's look for related discussion?
Callipygian Christensen: So, on to Item 2 of old business
Widget Whiteberry: /me hushes
Callipygian Christensen: regarding SC ownership of the Forums - have any of you , in your research, found any supporting evidence or evidence that deny's Gwyn's beleif that the SC 'owns' the Forums?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: nods
Callipygian Christensen: Widget - related discussion to any item is in SD Discussions
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: /me raises hand
Callipygian Christensen: SC members?
Aliasi Stonebender: To the best of my knowledge, the SC does not 'own' the forums. They are the moderators and effective administrators.
Lilith Ivory: I agree
Aliasi Stonebender: They no more 'own' the forums than the Chancellor 'owns' the actual regions of the CDS, despite having full management rights.
Aliasi Stonebender: The CDS 'owns' the forums, The primary exceptions were very early on, when the forums resided on the official SL boards, and an interim period where I ran a forum; I think Gwyn stuck one up shortly thereafter.
Callipygian Christensen: Aliasi - in regard to updating the terms of service - who fo do you think has that poer? Is it a part of the moderation role?
Callipygian Christensen: (my settings usually tell me when people are typing, but they seem to not be working today)
Callipygian Christensen: Ok..we had hoped Gwyn could attend to explain why she holds those beliefs..she was not able to be here today
Aliasi Stonebender: Hm. Well, I'd say that it IS primarily the SC's role, although I would say certain broad and sweeping aspects can be authorized by the RA.
Soro Dagostino: /me raises hand
Aliasi Stonebender: In much the same way the RA might make the law we abide by here in Second Life, but it falls to the chancellor to take care of daily business like actually banning griefers or disruptive use of the sims.
Aliasi Stonebender: Okay, that's my thought.
Callipygian Christensen: thank yu ALiasi
Callipygian Christensen: Soro?
Soro Dagostino: I agree with Aliasi
Callipygian Christensen: /me nods..thank you
Callipygian Christensen: Lilith or Arria..any thoughts?
Soro Dagostino: There should be a place for the RA and the citizens to have a word
Soro Dagostino: Likely, hte RA
Callipygian Christensen: /me nods
Lilith Ivory: what about the SC thinks about new terms of service and gives them the RA to aprove them?
Arria Perreault: /me raises hands
Callipygian Christensen: Arria?
Arria Perreault: I totally agree with Aliasi. The Terms of services of a kind of legislative pieces. Either the RA make them or the RA gives the main direction. The SC is responsible for the moderation which belongs to daily business,
Arria Perreault: done
Callipygian Christensen: /me nods. My understanding of Gwyn's point was that the SC having control of the Forums was intentional, not to have RA doing so, as a separation of powers issue
Soro Dagostino: /me raises hand
Callipygian Christensen: Since Gwyn could not be here to explain where her belief comes from, shall I ask her to attend next meeting, or submit proof of her beliefs so that it can be posted and checked..and proceed from there?
Callipygian Christensen: Soro?
Soro Dagostino: She should respond to the issues raised here today.
Soro Dagostino: done.
Callipygian Christensen: ok..Arria, Lilith, Aliasi..are you in agreement?
Lilith Ivory: I am
Aliasi Stonebender: I concur.
Callipygian Christensen: I will contact Gwyn then..thank you.
Callipygian Christensen: Cleo?
Arria Perreault: I agree that Gwyn should come in our next meeting
Callipygian Christensen: Not seeing any question from Cleo..so..next meeting..I suggested June 22..ALiasi..I'd be happy to schedule a daytime or nighttime one to fit your timzeone if you wish
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: NL 7-3 Webportal Act, CDSL 15.04.... both refer to the webportal, and now that the forums are on the webportal...
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: what is the clarification of the terms and how they overlap
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: done
Aliasi Stonebender: eh, honestly, just not having it on Sunday would be best. I can make this time with effort most of the time, it's the fact that Sunday is usually a busu day for me. In fact, right after this meeting I'm heading out in RL.
Callipygian Christensen: Ok Aliasi..then June 22 everyone?
Soro Dagostino: Yes.
Lilith Ivory: fine with me
Arria Perreault: ok for me
Lilith Ivory: but isn?t it a sunday again?
Aliasi Stonebender: eh, we'll see how it goes.
Widget Whiteberry: June 22 = sunday (for me)
Callipygian Christensen: Cleo..to answer..those laws are part of the issue..and the portal and forums are on totally different servers, run by different people. We haope to clarfiy that - part of the point of this.
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: ty
Callipygian Christensen: yes Lilith - that sems to be the most attainable for people..Aliaisi included.
Lilith Ivory: /me nods
Callipygian Christensen: Sorry Aliasi..I misread..wuold Saturday work better?
Aliasi Stonebender: Probably, yes.
Callipygian Christensen: Then would Saturday June 21 be ok with most?
Soro Dagostino: That leads to a conflict with the RA.
Callipygian Christensen: How so Soro..have they posted dates of meetings already?
Soro Dagostino: Just sayin . . .
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: not at all
Callipygian Christensen: I think we schedule and hopefully RA will take that into account when they do so
Callipygian Christensen: ok..June 21, Saturday, 8 AM
Callipygian Christensen: SLT
Lilith Ivory: fine with me
Callipygian Christensen: that concludes business.thank you to the SC members for a productive metting..and thank you to those citizens attending..
Callipygian Christensen: may I have a motion to adjourn
JerryDon Lane: Have a good day, Folks
Aliasi Stonebender: I'll motion. or second it.
Soro Dagostino: Second.
Callipygian Christensen: all in favour?
Lilith Ivory: aye
Soro Dagostino: aye
Callipygian Christensen: aye..we are adjourned