[07:37] Callipygian Christensen: I call this meeting to order with the reminder that it is recorded for publication.
[07:37] Vintage RCA meeting recorder: Recording begun
[07:38] Arria (arria.perreault): consent to be recorded
[07:38] Vintage RCA meeting recorder: Note: Meeting in progress - all local chat in this area may be recorded for publication
[07:39] Callipygian Christensen: I hope all of you saw the notice and the informatin that today's meeting is a review of a ban, and that citizens will not be invited to participate. Any disruption of the meeting will lead to a request for departure.
[07:40] Callipygian Christensen: The agenda only consists of 1. Review of the ban and 2. 2.Identify procedure to address the complaint identified in the notecard "Banned Avatar Report"
[07:41] Callipygian Christensen: I will present the facts as I know them first, and then the members of the SC will give their opinions on the ban.
[07:42] Soro (soro.dagostino) raises hand
[07:43] Callipygian Christensen: yes Soro?
[07:43] Soro (soro.dagostino): Is the e-mail issued to us by Pip to be placed on the record?
[07:44] Callipygian Christensen: Soro is referring to a petition from Pip that members of the SC received this morning
[07:45] Callipygian Christensen: Soro, due to the content it will not be entered into the record of this meeting, but is available to the SC . The notecard is a request to lift this ban, that we are reviewing anyway.
[07:46] Soro (soro.dagostino): I object -- we become a Star Chamber.
[07:46] Callipygian Christensen: Objection noted.
[07:47] Aliasi Stonebender: I would like to note this is not entirely without precedent; the original trial against Ulrika was held privately, albeit more because Ulrika herself could not be bothered to show up.
[07:47] Callipygian Christensen: Thank you Aliasi.
[07:48] Callipygian Christensen: So, the facts as I know them
[07:48] Callipygian Christensen: On July 12 Ceasar informed me that in his opinion Pip had breached the Defence of the Republic Act, and should be temporarily banned until the SC could hear a complaint. He indicated that on July 12 he had received a verbal report of a private Forum message (PM) that was sent within the CDS Forums on June 02, during an exchange of PMs between Pip and another Forum user
[07:48] Soro (soro.dagostino): Objection -- hearsay
[07:49] Callipygian Christensen: Objection noted.
[07:49] Callipygian Christensen: The breach, as he described it, was that the content of this PM contained a form of harassment so egregious as to require immediate banning. He proceeded to place that ban and also remove Pip from the CDS inworld groups. He did not notify Pip until sometime later, and did not give Pip any reason for the ban, saying only that the SC would review his complaint and decide whether to make the ban permanent.
[07:50] Callipygian Christensen: Ceasar delivered a combined notice of ban and complaint against Pip to me approximately 90 minutes later. The complaint did not identify a complainant; when I insisted that the SC must know who was providing the information regarding the PM and the name of the complainant, Ceasar sent me a notecard of the referenced PM, and named Cleo and himself as complainants in IM.
[07:50] Callipygian Christensen: Since this issue related to Forum data, I deactivated Pip Torok's account to ensure any existing records remained intact.
[07:51] Callipygian Christensen: Additional information of relevanc
[07:52] Callipygian Christensen: The forum user who received the PM in question does not wish to file a complaint with the SC, fearing retaliation. This user has not approached the SC, but approached Ceasar as 'a representative of government'.
[07:52] Callipygian Christensen: Ceasar indicated that he had also received a complaint from Cleo, based on the content of the PM. Cleo has not approached the SC or filed a complaint herself.
[07:52] Soro (soro.dagostino): Objection to the petition, uncorroborated hearsay.
[07:54] Callipygian Christensen: Soro - objection noted, but since we are only reveing the ban at this time, I am providing background information, not asking you to accept evidence.
[07:54] Soro (soro.dagostino): Its going to the record.
[07:54] Callipygian Christensen: Ceasar indicated he is also a complainant, due to his relationship with Cleo.
[07:55] Soro (soro.dagostino): Its still uncorroborated hearsay.
[07:55] Callipygian Christensen: Then I am sure you will consider that in your opinions and decision Soro.
[07:55] Soro (soro.dagostino): I made the point.
[07:56] Callipygian Christensen: The previous information, These complaints and the content of the PM are his justification for the ban under NL 4-24 Defence of the Republic Act.
[07:57] Callipygian Christensen: I will post the full text of that Act here, for those attending and for the record
[07:58] Callipygian Christensen: The full text of NL 4-24 Defense of the Republic Act:
Preamble
Estate owners in Second Life have tools available to them to defend their property against those who would do them harm. In Neualtenburg we allocate those powers to Government officials and responsible citizens to protect the sim and our citizens. We also allow for oversight of these powers to prevent abuse.
Definition
Griefing is defined here as behaviour designed to harrass others or to damage the sim. It includes inter alia harrassing avatars for racial, sexual or homophobic reasons; deleting or defacing public or private property in Neulatenburg; armed or unarmed combat with unwilling parties and attempts to crash the sim.
Powers
Members of the Representative Assembly, the Scientific Council and the Guild Master (and citizens temporarily empowered by these bodies) are empowered to ban avatars from Neualtenburg if they are griefing or make a recorded threat to grief.
The Scientific Council are empowered to deny citizenship to a non-citizen
[07:58] Callipygian Christensen: if they have cause to believe that the non-citizen will not abide by the Constitution, founding documents and laws of the City.
Oversight
Sim bans will be reviewed at the next Scientific Council meeting which must take place within 28 days. The Scientific Council can support, rescind or amend the ban and must set a time-limit for review by a future SC meeting.
Bars to citizenship must be time-limited and can be overturned by a 2/3 majority vote in the Representative Assembly.
[07:59] Callipygian Christensen: ...
[07:59] Callipygian Christensen: This law speaks to griefing activity occurring within the CDS estates. (At the time the law was written, Neualtenburg *was* the whole of what became CDS).
[08:00] Callipygian Christensen: I believe the issues we must explore are as follows:
[08:01] Callipygian Christensen: Can a law specifically addressing behaviour in-world be the justification to banish a citizen for purported activity outside of SL, in this case in the CDS Forums?
Should an official complaint be delivered to the SC before a citizen is banished?
Should any member of government use their power to banish a citizen, prior to any hearing or decision of the SC on an official complaint, when they are the the named complainant and/or are in a relationship with the complainant, and where there are other authorized members of government who could place such a ban if needed?
[08:02] Callipygian Christensen: We will have structured discussion around each point in order, and I ask SC members to be concise and on topic in the interests of all of your time contratins
[08:03] Callipygian Christensen: First point:
[08:03] Callipygian Christensen: Can a law specifically addressing behaviour in-world be the justification to banish a citizen for purported activity outside of SL, in this case in the CDS Forums?
[08:03] Meta (metafictioner): greetings 
[08:03] Callipygian Christensen: Arria?
[08:05] Arria (arria.perreault): I think that all the official communication channels of CDS inlcuding portal, forums and social media official accounts are extensions of what we call CDS
[08:05] Arria (arria.perreault): done
[08:06] Callipygian Christensen: thank you
[08:06] Callipygian Christensen: Aliasi?
[08:06] Cindy Ecksol: invisible meeting?
[08:08] Aliasi Stonebender: (test)
[08:08] Aliasi Stonebender: (connection burp again)
[08:09] Callipygian Christensen: test caem trhough Aliasi - should Imove to Soro while you type?
[08:09] Aliasi Stonebender: In principle, the portal, forums, etc, are all extensions of the CDS. We already make law that apply to these things.
[08:11] Callipygian Christensen: Ah. We will return to Aliasi when she returns
[08:11] Callipygian Christensen: Soro?
[08:13] Soro (soro.dagostino): I do believe the law applies to the portal and the forums. The Social list, not so much. But, however it is applied, it is applied in compliance with the law and due process.
[08:14] Callipygian Christensen: Is there more Soro?
[08:14] Soro (soro.dagostino): Not on this single issue.
[08:14] Callipygian Christensen: Thank you
[08:14] Callipygian Christensen: Aliasi, did you have anything further to add?
[08:16] Callipygian Christensen: I appears not at this point.
[08:16] Callipygian Christensen: Lilith?
[08:16] Lilith Ivory: No it can not, as it does not have the power to stop a citizen from this purported activity and therefor does not protect the Sim and our citizens in this case.
[08:16] Lilith Ivory: For me in this case this law got used as punishment and not for protection
[08:16] Lilith Ivory: done
[08:18] Callipygian Christensen: my view: much has ben made recently of following the letter of the law, and I find it diffcult to consider applying a law specific to the inworld estate and acticvity there to an external Forum.
[08:19] Soro (soro.dagostino) raises hand
[08:19] Callipygian Christensen: Even LL ToS, which is part of the Constitution, is specific that external forums, blogs, etc. are not covered.
[08:20] Callipygian Christensen: done
[08:20] Callipygian Christensen: Since Aliasi is not back - Soro?
[08:21] Soro (soro.dagostino): I want it clear that while I think there is law that might apply to correspondence on the forum, I do not think the law used by Ceasar to ban Pip is applicable by him in this instance.
[08:22] Callipygian Christensen: Thank you. Anything further from SC members before we move to the next point?
[08:22] Callipygian Christensen: Next point:
[08:22] Callipygian Christensen: Should an official complaint be delivered to the SC before a citizen is banished?
[08:23] Callipygian Christensen: Soro?
[08:23] Soro (soro.dagostino): Yes
[08:24] Callipygian Christensen: Anything further?
[08:24] Soro (soro.dagostino): Yes, but you asked a direct question . .
[08:25] Callipygian Christensen: It would be appropriate to give any ratinale you have for that answer
[08:25] Callipygian Christensen: or not, as you choose
[08:26] Callipygian Christensen: Lilith?
[08:27] Lilith Ivory: Yes, while giving this citizen a warning. As I think no single person should be allowed to decide about banning a citizen or not. (while in special cases if when a citizen griefs inworld a short time ban might be necessary after sending this citizen explicit warnings)
[08:27] Lilith Ivory: done
[08:29] Callipygian Christensen: My view: under Defence of the Realm immediate banning is permitted, in, as Lilith points out, cases of immediate threat to the estate.
[08:29] Soro (soro.dagostino): RL, brb
[08:30] Arria (arria.perreault): my opinion is exactly the same than Lilith's. I'd like to add that the Constitution defines the citizen as an owner of land in one the CDS sim. It is a complicate process to stop this citizenship. I agree also about emergency banishements in case of immediate threat to the estate. Done.
[08:30] Callipygian Christensen: In this case, where all aspects of the issue and complaint were already known - not an instance of action required to save the sims, I believe an official complaint should be filed before banning
[08:30] Callipygian Christensen: done.and I see Arria has gone ahead
[08:31] Callipygian Christensen: Thak yo Arria
[08:31] Callipygian Christensen: ANything further SC members before moving to the next point?
[08:32] Callipygian Christensen: Should any member of government use their power to banish a citizen, prior to any hearing or decision of the SC on an official complaint, when they are the the named complainant and/or are in a relationship with the complainant, and where there are other authorized members of government who could place such a ban if needed?
[08:32] Soro (soro.dagostino): Back
[08:33] Callipygian Christensen: Lilith?
[08:33] Lilith Ivory: No as the banning person would always be in danger to be called biased - again emergency banishements are an exception
[08:33] Lilith Ivory: done
[08:35] Lilith Ivory: ah and of course I don´t know if there were other EMs available to decide about this ban
[08:36] Soro (soro.dagostino) raises hand
[08:36] Callipygian Christensen: my view: as mentioned by lilith, the perception of bias when a compalainant imposes a ban is obvious. Immediate bans, for greifing, require no official complaint. The Defence of the Republic specifies a number of gov't members who can place a ban and having a complainant do so may give all citizens concern.
[08:36] Callipygian Christensen: done
[08:36] Callipygian Christensen: Arria?
[08:37] Arria (arria.perreault): I think that an official can make an immediate banishement in case of emergency as we said before. An official should not take a decision alone on any matter when there is a conflict of interest and must bring the issue to an other person or council that is neutral regarding the issue.
[08:37] Arria (arria.perreault): and this official* must bring the issue ....
[08:37] Arria (arria.perreault): done
[08:38] Callipygian Christensen: thank you everyone.
[08:38] Soro (soro.dagostino) raises hand
[08:38] Soro (soro.dagostino): I wasn't allowed to speak.
[08:38] Callipygian Christensen: oops..sorry Soro..had my list out of order
[08:39] Callipygian Christensen: Soro!
[08:39] Soro (soro.dagostino): The question is in two parts. First half -- no.
[08:39] Soro (soro.dagostino): Second, another no.
[08:40] Callipygian Christensen: Thank you Soro
[08:40] Callipygian Christensen: SC members, is there anything further before we vote on issues related to this ban?
[08:40] Soro (soro.dagostino) raises hand
[08:40] Callipygian Christensen: Soro?
[08:41] Soro (soro.dagostino): Withdraw the issue.
[08:42] Callipygian Christensen: welcome back Aliasi - do you wish to give opinions on the discussion points as a whole? We have completed the stuctured discussion for other members.
[08:42] Aliasi Stonebender: well, I did warn you my internet was shoddy today
[08:43] Callipygian Christensen: and you were right!
[08:43] Aliasi Stonebender: but to bear... while it's true the forums are part of the "CDS", that particular law was intended only to things that immediately threatened the technical stability or usability of the CDS.
[08:43] Aliasi Stonebender: I know this, because I happened to be one of the parties involved in making it law. 
[08:43] Soro (soro.dagostino): Agreed
[08:44] Callipygian Christensen: on the second point Aliasi - should an official complaint be made before a bansihment?
[08:44] Aliasi Stonebender: as such, Ceasar's use of it is wildly inappropriate, unless he is suggesting that Pip was abou tto unleash a grey goo script on the sims.
[08:45] Aliasi Stonebender: As to the second - there are times when a banishment without a complaint are appropriate - such as, well, the *appropriate* bannings unde rthe Defense of the Realm act.
[08:47] Callipygian Christensen: ah..she was typing madly :/
[08:48] Callipygian Christensen: We will continue since there are time constraints on the members. Would the SC members consider a motion to add Aliasi's further comments to the record as an addendum when she can provide them?
[08:49] Soro (soro.dagostino): So move.
[08:49] Lilith Ivory: I second
[08:49] Callipygian Christensen: All in favour?
[08:50] Lilith Ivory: aye
[08:50] Soro (soro.dagostino): Aye
[08:50] Callipygian Christensen: aye
[08:50] Arria (arria.perreault): aye
[08:50] Callipygian Christensen: Carried.
[08:51] Soro (soro.dagostino): I move the ban of Pip Torok be rescinded.
[08:51] Callipygian Christensen: There appear to be 3 resulting decisions needed from us.
[08:52] Callipygian Christensen: Thank you Soro, but I would like to amend that motion to include 'with no comment on guilt or innocence in the attached complaint, before your wording.
[08:53] Callipygian Christensen: Would you agree to that amendment?
[08:53] Soro (soro.dagostino): No
[08:54] Soro (soro.dagostino): It isn't part of this discussion.
[08:54] Callipygian Christensen: Then I have a motion to rescind the banning of Pip Torok. Is there a second?
[08:54] Arria (arria.perreault): I second
[08:55] Callipygian Christensen: All in favour?
[08:55] Soro (soro.dagostino): Aye
[08:55] Arria (arria.perreault): aye
[08:55] Lilith Ivory: aye
[08:55] Callipygian Christensen: aye
[08:55] Aliasi Stonebender: aye
[08:56] Callipygian Christensen: Does anyone desire to add a rationale beyond their earlier opinions?
[08:56] Ludo Merit raises hand
[08:56] Callipygian Christensen: motion carried unanimously to rescind the ban
[08:56] Ludo Merit: Sorry
[08:57] Callipygian Christensen: There are additional decisions related to this ban.
[08:57] Callipygian Christensen: Should Pip Torok be reinstated on the CDS groups?
[08:57] Soro (soro.dagostino): Move approval
[08:57] Lilith Ivory: I second
[08:58] Callipygian Christensen: all in favour?
[08:58] Soro (soro.dagostino): aye
[08:58] Lilith Ivory: aye
[08:58] Callipygian Christensen: aye
[08:58] Aliasi Stonebender: aye
[08:59] Callipygian Christensen: All against?
[08:59] Arria (arria.perreault): aye
[08:59] Callipygian Christensen: The motion carries unanimously
[09:00] Callipygian Christensen: Finally, should Pip Torok's Forum account be reactivated?
[09:00] Soro (soro.dagostino): Move approval
[09:00] Arria (arria.perreault): i second
[09:01] Callipygian Christensen: Discussion, since this was not addressed in the discussion of the ban, and is an action I took to protect potential evidence.
[09:01] Ludo Merit raises hand
[09:01] Aliasi Stonebender: I believe moderators can see posts that have been deleted or altered.
[09:01] Callipygian Christensen: I do not believe we should reactivate Pip's Forum account until such time as we have heard the complaint.
[09:02] Callipygian Christensen: Aliasi - we cannot see Private Messages at all, without extracting them from the database itself.
[09:02] Soro (soro.dagostino) raises hand
[09:03] Callipygian Christensen: Go ahead Soro
[09:03] Soro (soro.dagostino): Is there a way to suspend Pip's PM rights and still allow posts that can be moderated?
[09:04] Soro (soro.dagostino): Or is it all or nothing?
[09:04] Callipygian Christensen: In this case I believe all or nothing Soro, since reactivating the account will give Pip access to his control panel and thus to his PM folder
[09:05] Callipygian Christensen: I believe we have a responsibility to protect any information that may be there, adise from controlling future PMs until a decision is reached.
[09:06] Lilith Ivory: I agree
[09:06] Aliasi Stonebender: logical point.
[09:06] Arria (arria.perreault): it makes sense
[09:06] Callipygian Christensen: Then may I call the question?
[09:07] Callipygian Christensen: All in favour of reactiviting Pip Torok's Forum account at this time.
[09:07] Lilith Ivory: nay
[09:08] Callipygian Christensen: All against reactivating Pip Toroks forum account at this time.
[09:08] Arria (arria.perreault): nay
[09:08] Soro (soro.dagostino): Abstain
[09:08] Callipygian Christensen: nay to reactivation
[09:09] Lilith Ivory: nay to reactivation
[09:10] Aliasi Stonebender: nay
[09:11] Callipygian Christensen: With 4 votes agasint and one abstention, mtion to reactivate the account fails.
[09:12] Callipygian Christensen: To summarize: Ceasar is directed to remove all bans and removals from groups that he performed as part of this ban on Pip Torok
[09:12] Soro (soro.dagostino) raises hand.
[09:12] Callipygian Christensen: The deactivation of Pip Torok's Foorum account will reamin in place pending a hearing.
[09:13] Callipygian Christensen: Soro?
[09:13] Soro (soro.dagostino): Will Pip be allowed to read the forums?
[09:14] Callipygian Christensen: Yes, Forum access is public, except I thnk for lovked topics. I will confirm that with Gwyn.
[09:14] Callipygian Christensen: *locked
[09:14] Arria (arria.perreault): raises hand
[09:14] Soro (soro.dagostino): k
[09:14] Callipygian Christensen: Arria?
[09:15] Arria (arria.perreault): how we will moderate the forums regarding this matter and especially the complaint ? is it a topic for the forum until we make a decision ?
[09:17] Callipygian Christensen: There is a moratorium on discussion of the band and complaint at this time. We can leave that in effect until such time as we feel appropriate.
[09:17] Callipygian Christensen: *ban
[09:17] Arria (arria.perreault): ok
[09:17] Lilith Ivory raises her hand to add the link of this moderators announcement
[09:17] Soro (soro.dagostino): If Pip is not allowed to speak, the topic should be locked.
[09:17] Callipygian Christensen: Please do so Lilith
[09:17] Lilith Ivory: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5157
[09:18] Callipygian Christensen: Soro, that is one of the reasons for the moratorium *nod*
[09:18] Callipygian Christensen: I will post our decisions later today
[09:19] Callipygian Christensen: Second agenda item is to establish procedures for dealing with the complaint
[09:20] Callipygian Christensen: Looking at the time, I would like to table this to our upcoming meeting on Saturday the 19th, after presenting the following motion related to it:
[09:21] Callipygian Christensen: Move that discussion of procedures, due to the nature of the complaint, be held in camera. A transcript will be kept, but only a summary of the decided procedure will be published.
[09:22] Soro (soro.dagostino): Point of Order . . .
[09:22] Callipygian Christensen: Soro?
[09:22] Soro (soro.dagostino): When is the reinstatement of Pip to be done?
[09:23] Callipygian Christensen: Immediately, since our decision has been given
[09:23] Soro (soro.dagostino): So noted.
[09:23] Lilith Ivory: I second Callis motion
[09:23] Soro (soro.dagostino): I ask that the present motion be clarified.
[09:24] Callipygian Christensen: Discussion
[09:24] Callipygian Christensen: Soro, what clarification do you request?
[09:24] Soro (soro.dagostino): That the accused be given access to any in camera session.
[09:25] Soro (soro.dagostino): Due process
[09:25] Callipygian Christensen: The motion is related to Procedure that we will foolow in this case, and that procedure will be duly announced.
[09:25] Soro (soro.dagostino): Its more than that.
[09:25] Soro (soro.dagostino): Its a Star Chamber.
[09:26] Callipygian Christensen: Since it is not a hearing, and there will be no evidence I see no reason that anyone other than SC members have full access.
[09:26] Callipygian Christensen: wb Aliasi - we are in discussion of a motion on the floor:
[09:27] Callipygian Christensen: Move that discussion of procedures, due to the nature of the complaint, be held in camera. A transcript will be kept, but only a summary of the decided procedure will be published.for Aliasi's reference the motion is:
[09:27] Aliasi Stonebender: (we'll see how long I last...)
[09:28] Callipygian Christensen: that became garbled: the motion is ' Move that discussion of procedures, due to the nature of the complaint, be held in camera. A transcript will be kept, but only a summary of the decided procedure will be published.'
[09:28] Callipygian Christensen: Is there any further discussion?
[09:29] Arria (arria.perreault): not for me
[09:29] Lilith Ivory: not from me either
[09:29] Callipygian Christensen: Not hearing any, I call the question:
[09:29] Callipygian Christensen: All in favour?
[09:29] Lilith Ivory: aye
[09:29] Aliasi Stonebender: aye
[09:29] Callipygian Christensen: aye
[09:29] Arria (arria.perreault): aye
[09:30] Callipygian Christensen: Against?
[09:30] Soro (soro.dagostino): Nay
[09:30] Callipygian Christensen: 4 in favour, one against motion carries
[09:31] Callipygian Christensen: Motion to table said in camera discussion to the metting on the 19th?
[09:31] Arria (arria.perreault): second
[09:31] Callipygian Christensen: all in favour?
[09:31] Lilith Ivory: aye
[09:31] Callipygian Christensen: aye
[09:32] Arria (arria.perreault): aye
[09:32] gboi (graynger) is Offline
[09:32] Callipygian Christensen: All against?
[09:32] Soro (soro.dagostino): Nay
[09:32] Callipygian Christensen: Noting that Aliasi is no longer present to vote - 3 in favour, one against, motion carries.
[09:33] Callipygian Christensen: I would like to thank the members of the SC for an efficient and organized meeting around a difficult subject.
[09:34] Callipygian Christensen: I would also like to thank those who came to observe for doing so, and for respecting the need to allow the SC to conduct its business without interruption.
[09:34] Callipygian Christensen: There being no further business, motion to adjourn
[09:34] Rosie Gray: ··•°•··..☺ Applauds! ☺ ..··•°•··..
[09:35] Widget Whiteberry: Well done! Admirable.
[09:35] Lilith Ivory: I second
[09:35] Callipygian Christensen: all in favour?
[09:35] Soro (soro.dagostino): Aye
[09:35] Lilith Ivory: aye
[09:35] Callipygian Christensen: aye