Agenda
Old Business
1) Petition from Jon Seattle regarding notification of land seizure SD 1 hour
Administrative
1)Record of opinions and decisions ND 10 minutes
2) Template for petitions to the SC ND 5 minutes
Next meeting
Saturday Sept 13 8 AM SLT
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[09:06] Vintage RCA meeting recorder: Recording begun
[09:06] Michel Manen: smiles
[09:06] Vintage RCA meeting recorder: Note: Meeting in progress - all local chat in this area may be recorded for publication
[09:07] Callipygian Christensen: the recorder has sent out the following message and Ill post it in chat as a reminder: [09:07] Vintage RCA meeting recorder: Note: Meeting in progress - all local chat in this area may be recorded for publication
[09:10] Callipygian Christensen: well it's 9.10 and no message form Arria so we will begin and hope she makes it in.
[09:10] Callipygian Christensen: The agenda is in the box on the table by the wall
[09:10] Callipygian Christensen: wlecome everyone and thank you for attending
[09:11] Callipygian Christensen: Is the agenda acceptable to the members of the SC?
[09:11] Lilith Ivory: fine with me
[09:11] Soro (soro.dagostino): Yes.
[09:12] Callipygian Christensen: thank you..then we'll proceed
[09:12] Callipygian Christensen: Item one..the petiton from Jon Seattle that can be found here: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5167
[09:13] Mega (aliasi.stonebender): (belatedly, yes.)
[09:13] Callipygian Christensen: This was expanded to include another citizen who's land was recalimed at the same time
[09:14] Callipygian Christensen: Forthose attending, this petition is not about the Executive's right to reclaim land, or anything related to doing so, other than appropriate notification and fair treatment under the law
[09:15] Callipygian Christensen: Lilith has been the researcher on this petition so I will ask her to provide information before we hold a structured discussion.
[09:15] Soro (soro.dagostino) raises hand
[09:15] Callipygian Christensen: Lilith..the floor is yours
[09:15] Callipygian Christensen: yes Soro?
[09:15] Lilith Ivory wiats for Soro
[09:16] Soro (soro.dagostino): The publication announced -- is beyond 7 days, how far back is it.
[09:17] Callipygian Christensen: Sorry Soro..I am not sure what publication you mean?
[09:18] Soro (soro.dagostino): The petition . . .
[09:18] Callipygian Christensen: it was osted on July 15th Soro
[09:18] Callipygian Christensen: posted
[09:18] Soro (soro.dagostino): TY
[09:19] Callipygian Christensen: Lilith..all yours 
[09:19] Lilith Ivory: ok
[09:20] Lilith Ivory: first of all I want to appologize for the delay in this case as I got the job to do research but some serious RL problems came between me and doing this
[09:21] Lilith Ivory: I sent out emails/notecards to both our Chancellor and vice chancellor to provide all information necessary in this case
[09:22] Lilith Ivory: The law states :
Five calendar days after the due date, a landowner who has failed timely to pay rental tier becomes a ‘provisional citizen’, and shall not have the right to vote or hold office in the CDS until and unless all amounts overdue to CDS are paid in full. The citizen shall receive a notice (by IM or notecard) advising her or him of this risk and imminent change is status, and noting the deadline for final payment pursuant to this Act.
[09:23] Lilith Ivory: Ceasar answered my request with an email telling me he relies rely on the automatic notification of the hippo system
[09:24] Lilith Ivory: while Bagheera provided me several notecards she used to send to citizens who were in arreas
[09:25] CLEOPATRA Xigalia raises hand
[09:25] Michel Manen: policy was posted on forums
[09:25] Callipygian Christensen: For the record Lilith, perhaps we can include the text of a notecard
[09:25] Michel Manen: sorry
[09:26] Lilith Ivory: in all notecards she sent out was the following text included to explain the law
[09:26] Lilith Ivory: CDS Law (for your reference)
CDSL 13-03 Motion to amend NL 9-2 the Land Sales Reclamation Act
September 26th, 2011 | Author: Arria
Given the the Chancellor, Treasurer and the people assembled in commission meetings find the current collection rules ineffective, confusing and a hindrance to the effective management of tier collection, the following amendments are proposed to the Land Sales Reclamation Act.
Citizens of CDS are expected to pay tier rentals to the CDS Treasurer in a timely fashion. The Treasurer shall set (by posting to the CDS Forums) due dates for tier, which shall be the due date thereafter. The due date will be no earlier than five days after payment boxes are open to accept tier payments. Landowoners must contact the treasurer directly to arrange pre-payment as necessary.
The CDS Executive Branch shall provide for notice (which may be by IM or notecard) to each land owner when they have failed to pay tier rental by the established due date within 5 days of the delinquency.
Five
[09:26] Lilith Ivory: calendar days after the due date, a landowner who has failed timely to pay rental tier becomes a ‘provisional citizen’, and shall not have the right to vote or hold office in the CDS until and unless all amounts overdue to CDS are paid in full. The citizen shall receive a notice (by IM or notecard) advising her or him of this risk and imminent change is status, and noting the deadline for final payment pursuant to this Act.
CDS has the right to make public the lists of provisional citizens from time to time, as reasonably needed for its administration of government.
Fourteen days after the due date, if the landowner has continued to fail to pay the full amount then overdue to CDS, then CDS shall reclaim all parcels owned by the landowner and hold all parcels in reserve. Objects on the parcels will be be returned to the landowner and the parcels be set for re-sale
If a landowner who has failed to pay rental tier owns more than one CDS property, all of that owner’s properties are subject to the
[09:26] Lilith Ivory: reclamation rules specified above.
The CDS Executive Branch is encouraged to take reasonable additional steps to notify citizens of past due amounts and all other matters described in this Act, but timely rent payment primarily is the citizen’s responsibility to monitor.
This law repeals any provisions of prior CDS laws (including NL 7-6) that specify land reclamation or rent payment methods, to the extent that they contradict the explicit terms of this law.
[09:27] Lilith Ivory: also this line was part of all notecards she sent out
[09:27] Lilith Ivory: Your CDS Land parcel payment is overdue, please pay by before 14 days is past to avoid repossession.
[09:27] Callipygian Christensen: thank you Lilith - id you have more or would you like to hear any questions form the members before we go to discussion?
[09:28] Lilith Ivory: I can answer questions if there are any
[09:28] Callipygian Christensen: ALiasi, Soro..any questions before we discuss?
[09:29] Mega (aliasi.stonebender): No.
[09:29] Soro (soro.dagostino): No
[09:30] Callipygian Christensen: I have one question at this point - did Jon and the other person with land reclaimed receive this notecard?
[09:30] CLEOPATRA Xigalia raises hand
[09:31] Callipygian Christensen: Cleo..I saw your hadn before - we'll get t you after the SC members hear this information.
[09:31] Lilith Ivory: Bagheera indicated that she has sent notices to 17 citizens; those notices include the text of the law so do, in my opinion, meet the requirement to notify of provisional status. Bagheera did not send such a notecard to Jon, stating that Ceasar was taking care of his delinquency.
[09:32] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: objection
[09:32] Callipygian Christensen: thank you Lilith - since Ceasar said he relies on the hippo that would appear to be a 'no notecard'
[09:33] Lilith Ivory: it is not completely clear to me if the other person received a notecard but looking at the dates it looks like that for me
[09:33] Callipygian Christensen: For those observing - we will address this in sturctured discussion, each member of the SC speaking in turn with their observations and opinions
[09:33] Lilith Ivory nods
[09:33] Callipygian Christensen: Before we begin..Cleo?
[09:33] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: hearsay about what bagheera said though .. this is being misconstued greatly by lilith
[09:34] Lilith Ivory smiles
[09:34] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: yes smile you
[09:34] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i want this all dropped now til Bagheera can speak for herself
[09:34] Callipygian Christensen: Cleo, it is not hearsay, it is transcript from an IM discussion held with permission to share
[09:34] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: this is absurd
[09:34] Lilith Ivory: Bagheera has given me permission to transcript my conversation with her and use it at this meeting
[09:34] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: and for you to interpret it
[09:34] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: and mistate things
[09:34] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i doubt it
[09:34] Callipygian Christensen: Sowe will begin the discussion.
[09:35] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: this is what i want to know
[09:35] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: the dates all notecards were sent
[09:35] Callipygian Christensen: Cleo..youve spoken and been answered.
[09:35] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: and if Ceasar was deliberately handing JOns parcel differently than anyone
[09:35] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: no i wasnt done cally
[09:35] Callipygian Christensen: Please be quiet now
[09:35] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: thsi is out of liine what you are doing cally
[09:35] Michel Manen: raises hand
[09:35] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: you insinuate something untrue
[09:35] Callipygian Christensen: Aliasi..wold you begin please?
[09:35] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: show us all the transcripts
[09:35] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: lilith cannot interepret them and not call it hearsay
[09:35] Callipygian Christensen: Cleo..enough, or leave.
[09:36] Lilith Ivory can read
[09:36] CLEOPATRA Xigalia raises hand
[09:36] Callipygian Christensen: Aliasi?
[09:37] Mega (aliasi.stonebender): ah, sorry there...
[09:37] Mega (aliasi.stonebender): Anyway.
[09:39] Mega (aliasi.stonebender): The facts seem pretty clear, with the IM transcript and the statements of those involved. Jon did not get notice as was proper.
[09:39] CLEOPATRA Xigalia raises hand
[09:39] Michel Manen: re-raises hand
[09:39] Mega (aliasi.stonebender): I think that's all there really is to say on the matter.
[09:40] Callipygian Christensen: thank you Aliasi..Soro?
[09:40] Soro (soro.dagostino): I agree with Aliasi. Facts are clear. Jon did not receive notice.
[09:41] Callipygian Christensen: anything further Soro?
[09:41] Soro (soro.dagostino): Not for now.
[09:42] Callipygian Christensen: For myself, it seems the notecards comply with the law - they include the information that provisional status is imminent with the resultant loss of voting rights etc.
[09:42] Callipygian Christensen: the hipoo messages do not do that.
[09:43] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: Where does the law say everyone has to get a notecard? can you quote that statement to me ? it says IM OR notecard. of course Jon received notice. and you didnt say what dates and to whom else bagheera sent notecards. ...
[09:43] Callipygian Christensen: For whatever eeason it seeems Jon did not recive the notecard others did - soI agree, his notification did not comply with law
[09:43] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: sorry i didnt meant o sent that
[09:44] Callipygian Christensen: Lilth..would you like to give your observations now?
[09:44] JerryDon Lane: raises hand
[09:45] Lilith Ivory: I agree with my fellow memebers and also want to add that the law clearly states: The citizen shall receive a notice (by IM or notecard) advising her or him of this risk and imminent change is status, and noting the deadline for final payment pursuant to this Act.
[09:46] Lilith Ivory: done for now
[09:47] Callipygian Christensen: thank you Lilith - and thank you for pointing out again the relevant wording
[09:48] Callipygian Christensen: Some citizens have questions so we will address those before a decision. I ask those citizens to stay on topic and brief.
[09:48] Callipygian Christensen: Michel..and I assume 'welcome back to citizenship' is in order!
[09:48] Michel Manen: thank you!
[09:48] Michel Manen: i have 2 related questions
[09:49] Michel Manen: is notice by hypo valid under CDS law?
[09:49] Michel Manen: and if so, if one is sent to a group, and some receive it, whose responsibility is to check it was sent?
[09:49] Callipygian Christensen: hippo notices ar IMS and are certainly valid - but only if they contain the information required by law
[09:50] Callipygian Christensen: Cleo?
[09:50] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: michel isnt done i think
[09:51] Michel Manen: well if notice is given of the arrears,,, and the law publicly states that arrears have certain consequences, and this is public knoledge, does a notice have to restate the law to be valid?
[09:51] Callipygian Christensen: Michel -if the law states that it must..yes, in my opinion
[09:51] Michel Manen: or is it enough to inform of arrears for the law to apply?
[09:51] Callipygian Christensen: Cleo..did you have a question?
[09:51] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: michel is not done
[09:52] Michel Manen: so every time a law is breached the full law must be quoted including penalites otherwise it will not apply?
[09:52] Callipygian Christensen: Michel - the law states what notification is required - I think you have been answered
[09:52] Callipygian Christensen: Cleo..if you have a question, ask it please
[09:52] Michel Manen: yes i agree but what is notification?
[09:53] Michel Manen: is it a full quotation of the text and consequences of the netire legal texts that are publicly known? or simply notification of the fact that the law is broken?
[09:53] Michel Manen: its a very important point that needs to be clarified
[09:54] Michel Manen: not just for this case but for all cases involving notices
[09:54] Michel Manen: othewise we will not have fair standards applicable in the same way to all
[09:54] Michel Manen: thank you
[09:54] Mega (aliasi.stonebender) raises hand.
[09:54] Callipygian Christensen: Michel..a final response: the law sttes: The citizen shall receive a notice (by IM or notecard) advising her or him of this risk and imminent change is status,
[09:55] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: Are you going to answer Mihel ?
[09:55] Callipygian Christensen: so one or the other, including 'you are about to become provisional and lose the right to vote and hold office' in some form, is required..and yes..to ALL in this siutation, to be fair to all
[09:55] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: yes and everyone is informed at the time of purchase that the land equals the citizenship , you have to check a box about it
[09:56] Callipygian Christensen: Cleo..your question?
[09:56] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: So what about the parts of the law that were the treasurers responsibility in the beginning and how does that apply here ? it seems VERY relevant to this. This law seems totally invalid actually because it obviously was written before we even had hippo at all, .. so what did Sudane do to comply with part A of the law.
[09:56] Michel Manen: ok thanks
[09:56] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i want to also know what previous chancellors did and how they applied this
[09:56] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i never got anything from tor or trebor about losing land ever
[09:56] Callipygian Christensen: Cleo, as a member of RA you can certainly address the outdated parts of the law. The SC is taskd with dealing with it as it is written.
[09:56] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: if i was in arrears
[09:57] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: well you are only dealing with the part you want to look atl
[09:57] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i am also VERY offended by something lilith wrote.. 1. she didnt say when bagheera said she sent notecards
[09:57] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: was it before the jon seattle case and tow whome
[09:57] Soro (soro.dagostino): Objection, argumentative
[09:57] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: and also
[09:57] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i want to know another thing
[09:57] Callipygian Christensen: We aredealing with the question of fair and legal notification.
[09:57] Callipygian Christensen: JerryDon?
[09:57] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: she . lilith implied that ceasar
[09:57] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: im not done
[09:58] Mega (aliasi.stonebender): Also, payment boxes are not a new thing. We've had them for literal years. The Hippo ones are nice in that they do a lot of the bookkeeping automatically, but their existence does not invalidate law.
[09:58] JerryDon Lane: Will wait thank you
[09:58] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: that he did not treat jon the same as everyone else, which is not trueand not what lilit said
[09:58] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: yes but the other chancellors never did this fairly
[09:58] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: never
[09:58] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: ty
[09:58] Callipygian Christensen: Cleo , we are dealign with this incident, as a result of this petition..not history
[09:59] Callipygian Christensen: JerryDon?
[09:59] JerryDon Lane: Thanks Calli
[09:59] JerryDon Lane: Some very valid questions have been raised
[09:59] JerryDon Lane: I'd like to reinforce them
[09:59] JerryDon Lane: Is there evidence that IMs were not sent? Also, how did other Chancellors handle this........that seems relevant to the discussion. How did Tor and Trebor handle it? I might also reinforce Michels point that Hippo automatically sends late notices to people. Those are IMs via Hippo.
[10:00] JerryDon Lane: Don thanks you
[10:00] JerryDon Lane: done
[10:00] Widget Whiteberry wonders what kind of evidence there might be of actions NOT taken
[10:00] Ceasar Xigalia raises hand
[10:01] Pip Torok deplores all filibustering
[10:01] JerryDon Lane: Well, that is important one cannot just assume that IMs were not sent
[10:01] Tor Karlsvalt raises hand
[10:02] Callipygian Christensen: JerryDon - hte issue is whether or not the required notification of provisional status was sent in *any* form - since the hippo IMs do not do that, the question then becomes did everyone receive a notecard with that information - apparently many did and at least one did not. What others have done is irrelevant. The SC has to address thecomplaint brought to it, and apply the law.
[10:02] JerryDon Lane: But it also allows for IMs not just notecards
[10:03] Ceasar Xigalia: if the notifcation on the hippo includes for the information required do that from now on, will it be valid
[10:03] Callipygian Christensen: JerryDon..I dont know hos to restate this any more clearly. If the hippo IM is the only IM sent, and it does not include the required provisional status warning, it is not enough whether it was sent, received or not
[10:04] JerryDon Lane: But do you know that was the only IM sent?
[10:04] Michel Manen: yes good question Cesar.
[10:05] Callipygian Christensen: Ceasar indicated he relies on the hippo Ims and Baghera sstated Ceasar was dealing with this case - therefore it seems no other IM was sent.
[10:05] Mega (aliasi.stonebender) would note that such a 'paper trail' is probably a good reason for notecards to have been used historically.
[10:05] JerryDon Lane: Has testimony been givent to that effect?
[10:05] Callipygian Christensen: Any further questions that have not already been answered? Rais e your hands now
[10:05] Michel Manen: raises his hand
[10:05] Ceasar Xigalia raises hand
[10:05] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: the law says OR aliasia !
[10:06] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Tor had raised his hand
[10:06] Tor Karlsvalt puts his hand down, in interest of saving time.
[10:06] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Ah...
[10:06] Callipygian Christensen: sorry..Tor..go ahead I missed your hand
[10:06] Tor Karlsvalt: No not really necessary given you comments.
[10:06] Callipygian Christensen: Ceasar, then Michel and then we move on
[10:07] Ceasar Xigalia: if the notification on the hippo includes for the information required do that from now on, will it be valid
[10:07] Soro (soro.dagostino): That is not before us.
[10:08] Michel Manen: Caesar asked a very important question. If the Hyppo notifications will from now onwards include the text required by law, will they be considered valid notification for this purpose in the future? and if so, will it be the responsibility of the recipient to check in time if she got such notice? We need to know this so we do not repeat this all over again and the administrators can do their job efficiently and in accordance with the law
[10:08] Callipygian Christensen: Speaking for myself Ceasar, I would think yes - although at some pint one might want to address the issue of capped IMs and sutiable ways to esnure smething is received - but in tht I only speak for my opinion
[10:09] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i can only open a notecard inworld
[10:09] Callipygian Christensen: Michel - if that is your question, it is answered already I believe.
[10:09] Michel Manen: yes thank you
[10:10] Soro (soro.dagostino): Call the question.
[10:11] Callipygian Christensen: First Soro..do the members of the SC have anything further to add or ask?
[10:11] Mega (aliasi.stonebender): No.
[10:11] Soro (soro.dagostino): No
[10:12] Callipygian Christensen: then the question is: Membersof the SC, did Jon (and possibly the unnamed other citizen who 's land was recclaimed that day), receive the necessary notice as per the law?
[10:12] Callipygian Christensen: please state yes or no
[10:13] Soro (soro.dagostino): No
[10:13] Mega (aliasi.stonebender): No.
[10:13] Lilith Ivory: No
[10:13] Callipygian Christensen: No
[10:14] Callipygian Christensen: It is the opinion of the SC that insufficent notice was given in this incidence
[10:14] Callipygian Christensen: Lilith - do you have any recommendation based on this?
[10:15] Lilith Ivory: I recomment the land will be given back to Jon after he paid the amount he needed to pay
[10:16] Ceasar Xigalia raises hand
[10:16] Callipygian Christensen: Sor, Aliasi..any thoughts or additional comment to that?
[10:17] Soro (soro.dagostino): No
[10:17] Mega (aliasi.stonebender): One question ,have the plots in question been left unclaimed?
[10:18] Callipygian Christensen: They have been held off the market so they are still vacant
[10:18] Callipygian Christensen: I would prefer to state a reccomendation more formally and clearly - a moment while I type some wording
[10:19] Ceasar Xigalia raises hand
[10:22] Callipygian Christensen: 'The SC directs that the land of Jon Seattle (and the other unnamed citizen, if no appropriate notification was sent to that person also) be returned, on payment of the arrears due at tie of reclamation, and of tier for the period of this petiton, unless they have been paying tier on some other parcel. This will ensure no lapse in citizenship as a result of the reclamation.
[10:23] Callipygian Christensen: that seems to cover the issue, the collection of delinquent tier and ensure no loss of tier to CDS?
[10:23] Michel Manen: Where is Ashcroft when we need him with some precise wording 
grins
[10:23] Callipygian Christensen: Comments from SC members?
[10:24] Lilith Ivory: thanks Calli for making the wording more clear
[10:24] Soro (soro.dagostino): I agree . . .
[10:24] Mega (aliasi.stonebender): Seems clear enough.
[10:25] Callipygian Christensen: Lilith..are you in agreement?
[10:25] Lilith Ivory: yes I agree
[10:25] Callipygian Christensen: Seeing all in agreement- so be it.
[10:25] Callipygian Christensen: Ceasar..you had your hand raised?
[10:26] Ceasar Xigalia lowers hand
[10:26] Soro (soro.dagostino) raises hand
[10:26] Callipygian Christensen: ok..then Soro?
[10:27] Soro (soro.dagostino): I suggest that the changes proposed by the audience, be taken up by the RA . . . so the law is modified.
[10:27] Callipygian Christensen nods. Since a number of RA members are presnt I hope they will take note of that Soro.
[10:29] Michel Manen: a pleasure to see you all. i must take leave. good bye bye for now
[10:29] Callipygian Christensen: extt up..adminsitrative items:
[10:29] Callipygian Christensen: item 1..just entering location of discussions for the record
[10:30] Callipygian Christensen: Request from Mizou Vavvom : discussion located here: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5205
[10:30] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: lol
[10:30] Callipygian Christensen: Request ti impeach the LRA: discussion here: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5263
[10:31] Callipygian Christensen: SC members..any comment or addtional things needed on record?
[10:32] Lilith Ivory: not from my side
[10:33] Callipygian Christensen: Hearing nothing - final item is template for SC petiions. With Arria not here we will table until the next meeting?
[10:33] Soro (soro.dagostino): So move.
[10:34] Callipygian Christensen: Aliasi..Lilith..agree to table?
[10:34] Mega (aliasi.stonebender): aye.
[10:34] Lilith Ivory: I agree
[10:35] Callipygian Christensen: Leaving next meeting date as final item: ..is Saturday Sept 13 8 AM SLT
[10:35] Lilith Ivory: sounds good to me
[10:35] Callipygian Christensen: does that work for peole?
[10:36] Mega (aliasi.stonebender): should be okay.
[10:36] Callipygian Christensen: then that is the date,barring unforeseen reasons to change it.
[10:37] Callipygian Christensen: I would like to thank the citizens who attended today.
[10:37] Callipygian Christensen: and thank you to the SC members as always.
[10:37] Callipygian Christensen: move to adjourn
[10:38] Soro (soro.dagostino): Yes.
[10:38] Mega (aliasi.stonebender): second
[10:38] Lilith Ivory: aye
[10:38] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: thank you SC
[10:38] JerryDon Lane: Have a great day everyone...........
[10:39] Widget Whiteberry stands to express respect and appreciation
[10:39] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Happy Vulcanalia indeed ㋡
[10:40] Callipygian Christensen: ha..I stood just to show off my dress
[10:40] Vintage RCA meeting recorder: Recording ended.