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I have a question for you Rosie. If the pentagram on the church is of the free masons but still offends the Christians in cds, and potential Christian visitors couldn't you just remove it? Would you do that please for us. We would appreciate it very much.
Is it on all your buildings ?
..In the spirit of building bridges Cleo hands Rosie an olive branch supporting Pats manifesto
I'd like to see the continuance of the festival of Floralia, as we have celebrated it. Those who wish to attend can do so, just as those who wish to attend a Christian service can do so. Likewise anyone who does not wish to attend may simply find something else to do. I shall be honouring Ēostre.
cleopatraxigalia wrote:I have a question for you Rosie. If the pentagram on the church is of the free masons but still offends the Christians in cds, and potential Christian visitors couldn't you just remove it? Would you do that please for us. We would appreciate it very much.
Is it on all your buildings ?
..In the spirit of building bridges Cleo hands Rosie an olive branch supporting Pats manifesto
Yes, I'll remove the pentagram Cleo, since you asked so nicely. 
I only put it there as an interesting tidbit from history - and to add a bit of mystery to make people think and perhaps research for themselves why it would be there. One of the other ancient freemason symbols would serve just as well.
Ok I was curious about the pentagram and looked it up. If my memory holds now that the the pentagram has been removed from the Kirche, the point was up. As such this pentagram was an ancient Christian symbol of...., wait for it, The Five Wounds of Christ. This ancient through medieval symbol represented the the five wounds Christ suffered on the cross. The wounds were caused by the spikes through his hands and feet and the spear piercing his side. Yep, don't believe me, it is mentioned in a number of sources on the internet, the best being Wikipedia. (I know, I know, but there is a limit to the amount of time I want to devote to this.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagram
It seems this symbol is also the Seal of Solomon, One of God's major boosters and builder of the first temple. I know I have a Catholic background but I seem to remember he is credited with writing some of the Bible.
Perhaps that is one reason the Mormons, (last I looked they consider themselves to be Christian), include the pentagram, both pointed and inverted, to be a symbol of god and include it in their temple architecture.
As the Seal of Solomon, it apparently has earned a place on the Flags of Ethiopia, one of the oldest Christian nations on the planet. For the same reason it is on the Flag of Morocco.
My favorite reference in the Wikipedia article is is the use of the pentagram as a symbol that can trap the devil. Could that have been because the pentagram symbolized Jesus?
Seems the occult uses of this symbol are a bit new. Still it makes for a good story.
I have to say a little graffiti on a building intended to suggest a story makes for an interesting sim. Even if one took the pentagram as anti-christian it definitely added some mystery to the build. I am sure that was the intention of the graffiti. I certainly could not fault Rosie the builder, which I seem to remember came under some criticism for building what is a far more overtly Christian Kirche than the one it replaced.
Good to see the building being used this Easter.
Tor Karlsvalt wrote:Ok I was curious about the pentagram and looked it up. If my memory holds now that the the pentagram has been removed from the Kirche, the point was up. As such this pentagram was an ancient Christian symbol of...., wait for it, The Five Wounds of Christ. This ancient through medieval symbol represented the the five wounds Christ suffered on the cross. The wounds were caused by the spikes through his hands and feet and the spear piercing his side. Yep, don't believe me, it is mentioned in a number of sources on the internet, the best being Wikipedia. (I know, I know, but there is a limit to the amount of time I want to devote to this.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagram
It seems this symbol is also the Seal of Solomon, One of God's major boosters and builder of the first temple. I know I have a Catholic background but I seem to remember he is credited with writing some of the Bible.
Perhaps that is one reason the Mormons, (last I looked they consider themselves to be Christian), include the pentagram, both pointed and inverted, to be a symbol of god and include it in their temple architecture.
As the Seal of Solomon, it apparently has earned a place on the Flags of Ethiopia, one of the oldest Christian nations on the planet. For the same reason it is on the Flag of Morocco.
My favorite reference in the Wikipedia article is is the use of the pentagram as a symbol that can trap the devil. Could that have been because the pentagram symbolized Jesus?
Seems the occult uses of this symbol are a bit new. Still it makes for a good story.
I have to say a little graffiti on a building intended to suggest a story makes for an interesting sim. Even if one took the pentagram as anti-christian it definitely added some mystery to the build. I am sure that was the intention of the graffiti. I certainly could not fault Rosie the builder, which I seem to remember came under some criticism for building what is a far more overtly Christian Kirche than the one it replaced.
Good to see the building being used this Easter.
All exactly correct Tor; it's a shame there are so many vocal people in the CDS who seem to have so little regard for historical accuracy and by into the Hollywood version of things so easily - or just blindly parrot whatever their friends say. At any rate, I do think it would be nice to see the Kirche used for a celebration.
Rosie Gray wrote:All exactly correct Tor; it's a shame there are so many vocal people in the CDS who seem to have so little regard for historical accuracy and by into the Hollywood version of things so easily - or just blindly parrot whatever their friends say. At any rate, I do think it would be nice to see the Kirche used for a celebration.
It's not a matter of blindly parroting what a friend says. What we need look for in this example is to answer a question: are we being as sensitive to the tastes of our residents and our visitors in our builds as we can be as a community?
Who uses a church? Christians, of course. If it were for Jews it would be a tabernacle and if Muslims, a mosque. A church certainly is not normally consecrated to the Free Masons as Rosie earlier noted that the pentagram is popular with, and the rich history that the pentagram has with the Rosicrucians has nothing at all to do with Christianity. In fact, the Rosicrucians were members of a secretive 17th and 18th-century society devoted to the study of metaphysical, mystical, and alchemical lore, not Christianity; although a bit of that did creep into their belief structure. And I can assure you that the Mormons are their own sect with their own temples and hold many beliefs outside what one might normally term mainstream Christianity.
In fact, there is very little history of the pentagram being used anywhere in Christian history that is well accepted and not just a tad controversial. Some did use it as a symbol above their doors and on their buildings, but this was not Christianity in that these people had ancient beliefs that this symbol would ward off evil beings and spirits. Where is this stated in the Christian Bible? It's not in there and it is from this book that Christians obtain their views. And finally, as one who has studied theology, I can assure you that this symbol is not taught as having any historical value to Christian theology at the university level.
What is important, and a brief Google by Rosie should have told her this: to the modern day Christian who would have need for a church such as the Kirche, the pentagram, which is a significant symbol of satanic worship and has been routinely denoted as such at least from the inquisition up through modern times, would be highly offensive to their belief system.
Isn't it just common sense that we don't want to offend the very people that a structure is being built for? How about a cross, a manger, the Christian fish symbol or even a statue of the Virgin Mary for the Catholics? Now there is some history that fits right in with Christian theology.
There seems to have always been a Kirche on the Platz of NFS because every medieval Bavarian town has a Kriche at or near its center. Originally, it was never a Christian church. It was more of an amalgam of religion and fantasy. Jerry if you are worried about graffiti scrawled on the back of the Kirche, I shudder to think what you would have thought of the original Kirche. All that aside, the Kirche is indeed intended to be used by all faiths or persons. Indeed the altarpiece can be derezzed as necessary. In my view the current Kirche is far more welcoming to a wide cross section of people. Some might see it as a Christian church, other merely as art reflected the past.
There was quite a long discussion on the forum concerning the rebuilding of the Kirche. Find that here: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... che#p17945
In regard to the pentagram, an attempt to give the town of NFS a bit of whimsical mystery is a good thing. It gives visitors something to discover. The pentagram, tucked discreetly at the back of the outside church wall has enough of a mixed history to provide just that sort of mystery. Finally, NFS is supposed to be a medieval village existing in a modern times. Just as today, there are apparently ancient churches with depictions of beasts and pentagrams, NFS could be expected to have a church some ancient symbols scrawled on its stones.
BTW, just incase anyone hasn't noticed, very much like any present day house of worship, our Kriche does have a collection bowl. Rudeen welcomes donations for the support of the kirche and other public builds of CDS.
Thank you very much, Rosie. I have been approached over the past several months by quite a few citizens who were offended by what appeared to them to be. the modern day symbol of devil worship, wiccans and the like. Our government is a representative one and you and I at the moment are sworn to serve the people . I applaud you for making them feel heard and doing what was right.
Tor Karlsvalt wrote:There seems to have always been a Kirche on the Platz of NFS because every medieval Bavarian town has a Kriche at or near its center. Originally, it was never a Christian church. It was more of an amalgam of religion and fantasy. Jerry if you are worried about graffiti scrawled on the back of the Kirche, I shudder to think what you would have thought of the original Kirche. All that aside, the Kirche is indeed intended to be used by all faiths or persons. Indeed the altarpiece can be derezzed as necessary. In my view the current Kirche is far more welcoming to a wide cross section of people. Some might see it as a Christian church, other merely as art reflected the past.
There was quite a long discussion on the forum concerning the rebuilding of the Kirche. Find that here: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... che#p17945
In regard to the pentagram, an attempt to give the town of NFS a bit of whimsical mystery is a good thing. It gives visitors something to discover. The pentagram, tucked discreetly at the back of the outside church wall has enough of a mixed history to provide just that sort of mystery. Finally, NFS is supposed to be a medieval village existing in a modern times. Just as today, there are apparently ancient churches with depictions of beasts and pentagrams, NFS could be expected to have a church some ancient symbols scrawled on its stones.
BTW, just incase anyone hasn't noticed, very much like any present day house of worship, our Kriche does have a collection bowl. Rudeen welcomes donations for the support of the kirche and other public builds of CDS.
It's not graffiti, that bothers me, Tor. And if the Kirche is intended to be used by all faiths, please do not support the discrimination against one of them by insinuating it is just fine to use symbols that denigrate their religious principals. That is not OK, it is just wrong.
I can assure you that Christians have no desire to explore and "discover" items that make them uncomfortable in their faith.
We might as well just tuck a Satanic Bible somewhere for them to discover. That is rich in history as well....Common sense anyone?
Tor Karlsvalt wrote:... I shudder to think what you would have thought of the original Kirche. ...
You mean the wiccan symbols on the altar?
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"Nenia peno nek provo donos lakton de bovo."
Granted a Kirche is a building commonly found in a Bavarian town but I did feel we skewed the apparent purpose of our building when it became overtly Christian. Rather late in the day to mourn that loss though, I fear.
Then explain the pipsters red English telephone box and those coolio solar panels if we are going for historical accuracy in nfs LOL. I'm just sayin
cleopatraxigalia wrote:Then explain the pipsters red English telephone box and those coolio solar panels if we are going for historical accuracy in nfs LOL. I'm just sayin
Those are too separate issues, historical accuracy in a building and the fact that NFS time period is undefined. Many medieval places in the world that are protected still allow for some modernity. Take for instance telephones and indoor plumbing.
Rosie Gray wrote:cleopatraxigalia wrote:Then explain the pipsters red English telephone box and those coolio solar panels if we are going for historical accuracy in nfs LOL. I'm just sayin
Those are too separate issues, historical accuracy in a building and the fact that NFS time period is undefined. Many medieval places in the world that are protected still allow for some modernity. Take for instance telephones and indoor plumbing.
I beleive nearly every covenant in RL or SL deals with outdoor visible-on-the-street appearances. Telephone and indoor plumbing would both mostly be indoors, but a telephone booth in the middle of, say, a historical reenactment zone wouldn't be approved in RL.
But I get your point, but would point out that we'll want to make sure that those things are truly consistent with the written covenant. And if not, we will have to change the written covenant to what we want through the RA and then handed to the Chancellor for enforcement.
ANd ... solar panels? Usually follws the "you can have them so long as they are not visible at the street"
I happen to agree that NFS has always been more of a "modernist" approach to it, though we did change the covenant to disallow modernist housing in the valley. So I have not scrutinized the covenants since then - the features Cleo points out might no longer be allowed?
==
"Nenia peno nek provo donos lakton de bovo."
Bromo Ivory wrote:Rosie Gray wrote:cleopatraxigalia wrote:Then explain the pipsters red English telephone box and those coolio solar panels if we are going for historical accuracy in nfs LOL. I'm just sayin
Those are too separate issues, historical accuracy in a building and the fact that NFS time period is undefined. Many medieval places in the world that are protected still allow for some modernity. Take for instance telephones and indoor plumbing.
I beleive nearly every covenant in RL or SL deals with outdoor visible-on-the-street appearances. Telephone and indoor plumbing would both mostly be indoors, but a telephone booth in the middle of, say, a historical reenactment zone wouldn't be approved in RL.
But I get your point, but would point out that we'll want to make sure that those things are truly consistent with the written covenant. And if not, we will have to change the written covenant to what we want through the RA and then handed to the Chancellor for enforcement.
ANd ... solar panels? Usually follws the "you can have them so long as they are not visible at the street"
I happen to agree that NFS has always been more of a "modernist" approach to it, though we did change the covenant to disallow modernist housing in the valley. So I have not scrutinized the covenants since then - the features Cleo points out might no longer be allowed?
You are right about historical reenactment zones, but I was referencing places that modern people live such as the Lake District National Park in England. There are many of these conservation areas in the British Isles (where I am most familiar). The character of these protected places is maintained through strict building codes, but there is recognition that modern people must be able to live comfortably as well, so there are provisions made for such. You couldn't build a new modern house, but you can put a sign on your shop in modern English, put chairs out on the patio that are of modern design and construction, and park your car next to your house. A trip via google earth through these towns and villages shows antennas on the roofs and plumbing running down the outside walls. A google-earth trip into the heart of Rothenburg, Germany - the town that NFS is modelled after - shows modern things such as electric lights, modern style protective grates around street trees, cars parked on the cobblestones, bike racks etc.
The solar panels have been on NFS buildings since before I arrived (so that's over 4 years), and the telephone box has been there too. With the covenant stating that "The city of Neufreistadt is modeled after a medieval Bavarian city with a surrounding valley. The time period is indeterminate.".
When I first saw that telephone box, I thought it was a delightful touch (it's not exactly modern either). The solar panels are the kind of modern thing that might be allowed on a medieval building because of the need to reduce the effects of burning on our environment and the need to encourage the use of sustainable energy practices. I see that as a positive message, but I can also see that it would take a lot of discussion at the town council level and there would be a lot of people against it too.