We recorded and transcripted our discussion today. Here is the transcript.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[11:05] Delia Lake: Welcome to a discussion about self-government and democracy in the CDS.
[11:05] Delia Lake: For those who might not know me, my name is Delia Lake
[11:05] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): ㋡
[11:05] Soro (soro.dagostino): That's me.
[11:06] Delia Lake: I have lived in the CDS since September 2006.
[11:06] Delia Lake: During these years I have tried to be an active and interested citizen.
[11:06] Tray (tray.rivera): hmm
[11:06] Delia Lake: I believe that democracy only works--in ANY world--if the populace, the citizens of the society participate.
[11:07] Delia Lake: I like many of my fellow citizens have taken a turn in our government. For 4 years I served on the CDS Scientific Council (SC)
[11:08] Delia Lake: I have also been an active member of two other self-governing communities in SL: Cedar Island, and Al Andalus.
[11:08] Delia Lake: The framing of today's discussion is as follows:
[11:08] Delia Lake: For Better or for Worse: Is 10 years of self-government in the CDS a harbinger of the future?
[11:08] Delia Lake: What do you think about democracy in virtual space? A jewel to be cherished? A relic dragged in from solid space?
[11:09] Delia Lake: An emerging evolutionary advancement for humanity? ...or something altogether different?
[11:09] Delia Lake: This presentation and open discussion will use democracy in the CDS as it’s starting point--how it began, has evolved to date,
[11:12] Delia Lake: and danced with and around its sister self-governing communities of Cedar Island and Al Andalus.
[11:12] Delia Lake: Given what we’ve learned during these past 10 years in the CDS, how could this way of operating add value
[11:12] Delia Lake: to business, civic and leisure-time groups that meet and work together on virtual platforms?
[11:13] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Kendra Bancroft, a hero for LGBT people in democratic spaces ㋡
[11:13] Delia Lake: From what we’ve experienced during our run with democracy in the CDS so far,
[11:13] Delia Lake: what opportunities and challenges are likely to arise as virtual spaces continue to populate and mature in their use, and how might these issues be addressed?
[11:13] Delia Lake: OK?
[11:13] Delia Lake: A Little Background...
[11:13] Delia Lake: As is so often the case, democracy for the CDS was the brain-child of a handful of motivated collaborators who were early residents
[11:13] Delia Lake: of the newly formed virtual world of Second Life. Prime movers in this Projekt were Ulrika Zugzwag and Kendra Bancroft.
[11:13] Delia Lake: So let's look at what they had to say during the framing period.
[11:13] Delia Lake: from the SL archives of 09-17-2004 21:28
[11:13] Delia Lake: "Before we can transition our social democracy to a democratically elected representative body, we need a constitution." Ulrika Zugzwag
[11:13] Delia Lake: from the SL archives of 09-20-2004 15:27
[11:14] Delia Lake: "The first step to forming a constitution is articulating the philosophy which we hope will define our city."
[11:15] Rosie Gray nods, having read it
[11:15] Delia Lake: http://portal.slcds.info/index.php/orig ... history-2/
[11:15] Delia Lake: "I'll start with a little bit of my philosophy and we can add, subtract, or modify it." Ulrika Zugzwag
[11:15] Delia Lake: "Note that these thoughts are quite random at the moment but I thought it would be good just to get them down." Ulrika Zugzwag
[11:15] Delia Lake: "1. I would like a social democracy. Social democracies generally do not see a conflict between a capitalist market economy and the definition of a socialist society,"
[11:15] Delia Lake: "and support reforming capitalism in an attempt to make it more equitable through the creation and maintenance of a welfare state" Ulrika Zugzwag
[11:15] Entering chat range: Phanessa Svenska (10m)
[11:15] Delia Lake: .2. "The goal is to replace standard single-player "ego" builds with collaboration on all levels." Ulrika Zugzwag
[11:16] Delia Lake: During the formation process, this group that came to be the Neualtenburg Projekt discussed, wrangled and wrestled, and ultimately
[11:16] Tor Karlsvalt: 
[11:17] Delia Lake: crafted a Constitution that from that moment on defined what these residents would, could and should do together.
[11:17] Delia Lake: from Kendra Bancroft...
[11:17] Tray (tray.rivera): ahh
[11:17] Delia Lake: -- "I think a social democracy is a good starting point. though in keeping with the architecture I suggest a medieval model which eschews feudalism in favor of a social democracy." Kendra Bancroft
[11:17] Delia Lake: "To that end I suggest in keeping with a synergistic entity a formation of a government based on guilds of influence which would offer a check and balance system." Kendra Bancroft
[11:18] Delia Lake: "To that end I propose a three pronged government composed of:an Artist's Guild (with apprenticeship structures and a self imposed quality standard)," Kendra Bancroft
[11:20] Delia Lake: "a Merchant's Guild (which sets standards of sales tax and further assesses percentages based on collaborative efforts)" Kendra Bancroft
[11:20] Delia Lake: "and a Judiciary (which acts as a mediator as opposed to a legislative or punitive body)" Kendra Bancroft
[11:20] Delia Lake: The form of government chosen was, and is still today, a 3-branch representative government. Originally these branches were:
[11:20] Delia Lake: 1. Representative Branch (Land)--A group of democratically elected representatives
[11:20] Delia Lake: 2. Artisanal Branch (Goods).A union of artists who build and code for the city
[11:21] Delia Lake: 3. Philosophic Branch (Order), A leftist philosophic meritocracy
[11:21] Delia Lake: "The city is not a true democracy, rather it is a social democratic republic.
[11:21] Delia Lake: It combines elements of democracy, socialism, and meritocracy with the goal of maximizing benefit to the society
[11:21] Delia Lake: while respecting individual rights and promoting complete equality."
[11:21] Delia Lake: When the first Constitution was written and approved, the community was situated on ¼ of a mainland sim
[11:21] Delia Lake: --it was what is now our Anzere infohub surrounded by winter sim parkland (basically empty space). But people had a vision...
[11:21] Delia Lake: 2005
[11:21] Delia Lake: The small community is awarded a winter sim by LL as a result of winning the “contest”
[11:21] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Wow, I'm so glad to know this history!
[11:21] Delia Lake: --the request for proposal circulated by Hanley Linden and answered by Ulrika and Kendra.
[11:22] Delia Lake: This first sim became the City of Neualtenburg
[11:22] Delia Lake: 2006 (April)
[11:22] Delia Lake: Conflict in the community; war broke out.
[11:22] Delia Lake: Ulrika Zugzwag, one of the founders, deleted a significant portion of the buildings of Neualtenburg.
[11:23] Riven Homewood is offline.
[11:23] Delia Lake: She was declared a traitor and banned from the sim
[11:23] Delia Lake: 2006, following, and as a reaction to the Coup (October)
[11:23] Delia Lake: A new Constitution was passed for the renamed sim that was now Neufreistadt.
[11:23] Delia Lake: The new government still consisted of the same 3 branches.
[11:23] Delia Lake: Additionally, the office of Chancellor was established..
[11:23] Delia Lake: The Chancellor was appointed by the RA.
[11:23] Delia Lake: 2006
[11:23] Delia Lake: The CDS started expanding.
[11:24] Delia Lake: The community added Colonia Nova and subsequently 3 more new sims in the next few years:
[11:24] Delia Lake: Alpine Meadow, Locus Amoenus, and Monastery.
[11:24] Delia Lake: 2007
[11:24] Delia Lake: Both Cedar Island and Al Andalus were established.
[11:24] Delia Lake: Each were in a way offshoots of the CDS.
[11:24] Delia Lake: Cedar's founder, Jon Seattle, a long with Moon Adamant, brought forth a new community
[11:24] Delia Lake: governed by consensus of the people in the community and focused on learning from sharing work citizens were doing
[11:24] Delia Lake: in sl and in rl
[11:24] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker) nods
[11:24] Delia Lake: Al Andalus was established by Michel Manen, and Rose Springvale. Governance of AA was
[11:24] Delia Lake: collaborative with a council comprised of all citizens who wished to participate.
[11:25] Delia Lake: Both AA and CI functioned as direct democracies.
[11:25] Delia Lake: A couple of different times the Cedar community explored merging with the CDS.
[11:25] Delia Lake: Each time it decided not to do so.
[11:25] Delia Lake: Al Andalus in 2009 entered formal negotiations with the CDS and the two communities did merge
[11:27] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker) wonders why the two didn't just develop a bicameral republic
[11:28] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): ㋡
[11:29] Widget Whiteberry: delia?
[11:29] Delia Lake: with the caveat that either could break off the merger after
[11:30] Delia Lake: a period of a 1 year trial.
[11:30] Delia Lake: 2010
[11:31] Delia Lake: AA did break off the merger. AA and the CDS separated their co-located sims.
[11:31] Delia Lake: Reactions were expressed in relief, disappointment and numerous overt and subtle fallouts from this merger.
[11:31] Tor Karlsvalt nods
[11:31] Entering chat range: Cadence Theas (16m)
[11:32] Tor Karlsvalt: Hi Cadence
[11:32] Cadence Theas: Hi Tor
[11:32] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Hi Cadence ㋡
[11:32] Cadence Theas: Hi Gauis
[11:32] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Come close Cadence, so that you can hear Delia
[11:33] Delia Lake: They rolled through each the CDS and AA.
[11:34] Delia Lake: Neither Cedar nor AA exist today as communities of residential sims.
[11:34] Delia Lake: Both AA and Cedar continued for a few year then closed their sims.
[11:34] Delia Lake: Some of the citizens from each of those communities are now citizens of the CDS. Some rejected the CDS community and its form of democracy.
[11:34] Delia Lake: Two changes were implemented during that fallout that modified the CDS government form somewhat.
[11:34] Delia Lake: First was limiting the RA to 5 seats.
[11:34] Delia Lake: The second was moving from an appointed to
[11:34] Delia Lake: an elected Chancellor to be the 3rd branch. This Executive replaced the Artisanal Collective in many of its former government functions.
[11:34] Delia Lake: Both the RA and the Chancellor come to office via direct election today.
[11:34] Delia Lake: Originally the RA was appointed by the Factions that were elected,
[11:34] Delia Lake: and the Chancellor as I said was an appointment of the RA
[11:35] Delia Lake: QUESTIONS TO BEGIN Conversation
[11:35] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): So sad... if only we had evolved our republic into a bicameral or even tricameral republic, maybe al-Andalus and Cedar Island would still be here in world
[11:35] Delia Lake: Any government strikes some balance between command-and-control, individual “rights,”
[11:36] Delia Lake: in the case of some and particularly in democracy,
[11:36] Delia Lake: decisions are made by majority vote.
[11:36] Delia Lake: What are some pros and some cons of this form of government?
[11:36] Delia Lake: In a recent post/comment by a writer I know, Craig Childs, he said
[11:36] Delia Lake: “I was talking to someone doing business in China and he mentioned" Craig Childs
[11:36] Delia Lake: "how nationals there are disheartened over the US, wishing we would rise up and do something morally right for the world, " Craig Childs
[11:36] Delia Lake: "including them, to follow. " Craig Childs
[11:36] Delia Lake: "Maybe this country is a perfect democracy, I said, it's as dysfunctional right now as its citizens, me included." Craig Childs
[11:36] Delia Lake: If I could figure out the right thing to do, maybe my country could, too, and we could proudly set an example.” Craig Childs
[11:36] Delia Lake: Are there dysfunctions that are build in or inherent in constitutional democracies and representational government?
[11:36] Delia Lake: How might you remedy those you see?
[11:36] Pip Torok: strongly agree
[11:37] Delia Lake: Is the CDS, and are other democratically governed groups of citizens Micronations?
[11:37] Delia Lake: A few of our citizens have said the CDS is one. Gwyn and Gaius today, and Sleazy Writer in the past has claimed this.
[11:37] Delia Lake: What do you think?
[11:37] Delia Lake: In a government that has divided responsibilities assigned to different branches, what are ways to ensure balance of powers and accountability to the people/electorate?
[11:37] Delia Lake: As more and more groups use virtual platforms as their primary mode of collaboration,
[11:37] Delia Lake: what lessons, observations and recommendations would you offer them from our experiences in the CDS>
[11:37] Entering chat range: Randolph Azarov (10m)
[11:37] Pip Torok: a realisation that thers opinions are as important as ones own
[11:37] Widget Whiteberry: this convo is being recorded
[ [11:38] Tor Karlsvalt: I think we need to be as welcoming as possible to new people
[11:38] Pip Torok: plus a regard for others dignity
[11:38] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I think this history puts into perspective that our constitution is more than just one document: it's all our political culture, our laws, our traditions,our interactions.
[11:38] Tor Karlsvalt: encourage participation.
[11:38] Widget Whiteberry: Lots of us need to be involved in the public life of CDS
[11:39] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Wonderful article in Jacobin Magazine, Delia, on the impact of Occupy "after Occupy"
[11:39] Entering chat range: Lilith Ivory (10m)
[11:39] Tor Karlsvalt: hi Randolf
[11:39] Randolph Azarov: Hi, Tor.
[11:39] Lilith Ivory: Hi everyone
[11:40] Catz Jewell Lane (catz.jewell): Hi Lilith
[11:40] Tor Karlsvalt: My experince is that we need poeple to run this very large government structure.
[11:40] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Sure!
[11:40] Tor Karlsvalt: yes
[11:41] Tor Karlsvalt: Well we have bodies that need a lot of people
[11:41] Tor Karlsvalt: 10 alone between the SC and RA
[11:41] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/06/occupy-after-occupy/
[11:41] Tor Karlsvalt: The exec can had another five easily.
[11:41] Randolph Azarov: I'm havin audio problems.
[11:41] Randolph Azarov: I'll BRB, I hope
[11:42] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Cme close, folks!
[11:42] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Don't be on the other parcel, you won't be able to hear Delia
[11:43] Tray (tray.rivera): Delia, forgive me, but what is the purpose of CDS beyond maintaining itself?
[11:43] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Lil, Cadence, Randolph, I think you're on the other parcel
[11:43] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Come closer
[11:44] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): We can voice, yes?
[11:44] Randolph Azarov: audio...., yes
[11:44] Soro (soro.dagostino): Self Government vs owner control
[11:44] Pip Torok: to encourage democratic thinking among ppl in RL
[11:44] Widget Whiteberry: voice no longer restricted to this parcel.
[11:44] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): TY Widget ㋡
[11:44] Leslie Allandale: How can you talk about the purpose of CDS, as opposed to the purpose of its Citizens?
[11:44] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I think Tray points to it, that our primary function is to secure our existence. But Pip's latent function is likewise very true imo
[11:45] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): True, Leslie! The state's purpose is to survive, our purpose as citizens is to facilitate democracy ㋡
[11:45] Leslie Allandale: Yes
[11:46] Tor Karlsvalt: I think CDS should offer a platform that supports individual activities.
[ [11:46] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): To encourage the form of democracy wish to see, since many of our citizens come from various backgrounds of what democracy means
[11:46] Randolph Azarov: That's very abstract; one has to have specific goals that the organization can achieve, or why have an organizations?
[11:46] Tor Karlsvalt: For instance a citizen as rights to use CDS resources.
[11:46] Pip Torok: no snd perhaps it shd not be except on special occasions
[11:46] Leslie Allandale: We each can have a vision of the future, but CDS as a system is only interested in its own durability
[11:46] Sudane Erato: In SL, it is a fundamentally difference community experience between an estate owner community and a community owned community... fundamentally different!
[11:47] Soro (soro.dagostino): Sounds a little like Ceasar's 'tude.
[11:47] Tor Karlsvalt: I think as a collective we can offer more to the individual
[11:47] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Precisely, the function of the state is to survive — but we make up the purpose of the CDS as we wish to see them!
[11:47] Tor Karlsvalt: Yes, we are resident owners.
[11:47] Cadence Theas: but it only works as much as each individual contributes
[11:48] Cadence Theas: and participates in the constructioin of consensus
[11:48] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): That's a "Cedar Island" way of looking at it, Cadence ㋡
[11:48] Sudane Erato: yes Cadence... those who vote take responsibility for their ownership
[11:48] Cadence Theas: we have to transcend the state to al large sense
[11:48] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): (not in a pejorative sense)
[11:48] Rosie Gray agrees with Cadence
[11:49] Tor Karlsvalt: true
[11:49] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I think the CDS way of looking at it would be that we are all a part of various interest groups and must compete
[11:49] Cadence Theas: i am not suggesting that we follow the CI model, but we can learn a lot obout what each of us can do
[11:49] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Oh, no, I completely agree!
[11:50] Cadence Theas: from the committment that CI represented
[11:50] Tor Karlsvalt: The breakdown occures when one or some of us think establishing trust is unnecessary.
[11:50] Rosie Gray: I've learned a lot through participating in the CDS process
[11:50] Tor Karlsvalt: me too Rosie
[11:51] Cadence Theas: me too
[11:51] Pip Torok: (delia's voicing seems intermittent)
[11:51] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I think we ought to consider other perspectives of how democracy works
[11:51] Tor Karlsvalt: I think even in my RL this has helped in terms of interacting in tense situations.
[11:51] Widget Whiteberry: Delia's pauses are long
[11:51] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker) nods
[11:52] Cadence Theas: Gauis
[11:52] Tor Karlsvalt: Yes, well it is partof beign a politial person
[11:52] Tor Karlsvalt: one needs to find consensus
[11:52] Cadence Theas: I think we have to recofgnize one irrevocable reality about CDS
[11:52] Tor Karlsvalt: yes
[11:52] Randolph Azarov: go on
[11:52] Cadence Theas: we are a small community
[11:52] Tor Karlsvalt: but this helps at work for me actually.
[11:52] Cadence Theas: and it is difficult to expermiente with complex democratic forms
[11:52] Tor Karlsvalt: often people have contrary goalss
[11:52] Tor Karlsvalt: yes
[11:52] Cadence Theas: we should approach the simple model
[11:52] Pip Torok: yes
[11:52] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Yes, Cadence
[11:52] Cadence Theas: the trust based model
[11:53] Cadence Theas: and just have a few checks and balances
[11:53] Tor Karlsvalt: and to find what we agreeon on
[11:53] Cadence Theas: but this means that all of us
[11:53] Cadence Theas: have a role
[[11:53] Cadence Theas: here
[11:53] Tor Karlsvalt: yes
[11:53] Cadence Theas: we dont need to follow rl models
[11:53] Leslie Allandale: CDS is very much like a small non-profit organization, like a community theater
[11:53] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): In this sort of "competing interests" model as we have in the CDS, it leads us to compromise in difficult and hard situations, when negotiating can be "hard"
[11:53] Cadence Theas: we can experiment with somethign that works in a small community
[11:54] Leslie Allandale: But a non profit has an objective...
[11:54] Rosie Gray: we've found the difficulty with the issues of trust, when there are people who are not trustworthy
[11:54] Rosie Gray: and finding ways to handle that
[11:54] Cadence Theas: we were unready
[11:54] Tor Karlsvalt: I agree with both
[11:54] Cadence Theas: and did not have system of checks and balances
[11:54] Randolph Azarov: Sure. Trolls.
[11:54] Randolph Azarov: and that's a real problem.
[11:54] Pip Torok: cadence remark that we are small seems very relevant .. iv heard there is a threshold of 150 ppl beyong which there is no longer a cohesion
[11:54] Tor Karlsvalt: one fault we have it that we do not have a good way to protect the community
[11:55] Randolph Azarov: sorry
[11:55] Tor Karlsvalt: no
[11:55] Tor Karlsvalt: np
[11:55] Tor Karlsvalt: hmmm
[11:55] Randolph Azarov: depends on individuals, and the social order
[11:55] Rosie Gray: in a virtual world, there are other requirements to handling these issues than in RL, in that we are essentially living under the domain of dictators - LL - and anything we do needs to comply with their umbrella
[11:56] Randolph Azarov: not a dictator, a god
[11:56] Pip Torok: i spent time in a kibbutz of 300 ppl but many were children...
[11:56] Cadence Theas: its not a bad umbrella though Rosie
[11:56] Tor Karlsvalt: haha
[11:56] Cadence Theas: it is based on mutual respect to a large extent
[11:56] Randolph Azarov: oh, heavens, yes. I gather the Occupy Assemblies ended up drowning in them.
[11:56] Sudane Erato: yes!
[11:56] Entering chat range: Patroklus Murakami (6m)
[11:57] Randolph Azarov: Folks....I'd intended to come earlier and stay longer, but I've got a phone-banking shift, and I have to go 
[11:57] Randolph Azarov: I'm sorry.
[11:57] Rosie Gray: I agree Randolph, the Occupy movement ended up with a lot of trolls basically taking it over
[11:57] Delia Lake: glad you did come Randolph
[12:00] Soro (soro.dagostino): You just observed that happenstance
[12:00] Entering chat range: IrahGrimObscurity (9m)
[12:00] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): True about Occupy, Rosie
[12:01] Cadence Theas: what happenstance, Soro?
[12:01] Catz Jewell Lane (catz.jewell): I think just spending time with each other and getting to know each other on a social basis helps. Lets you relax and take the time to get to know all citizens.
[12:01] Pip Torok: imo we need to see the Lindens as th surrounding physical system
[12:02] Pip Torok: very easily
[12:02] Sudane Erato: the LL framework leaves us with a number of imperfections in the concept... needing to have an estate owner which may not reflect the intent of the concept
[12:02] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): That builds trust, Catz, but I think it's better to have a product — that makes more trust!
[12:02] Pip Torok: yes "warts and all"
[12:02] Cadence Theas: CDS needs to be personal, but we cant take it personally
[12:03] Cadence Theas: that is what breaks down trust too
[12:03] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): That's true, Sudane, but that's not very relevant — as an estate owner, you side on the side of democracy and leave it up tot he republic
[12:03] Leslie Allandale: It seems to me that any organization needs to have other objectives besides its own survival...
[12:03] Rosie Gray: I agree with Catz that it does help to socialize with people, as that helps to build trust
[12:03] Tor Karlsvalt: true Catz, that helps. It helps to learn the interests of others and enjoy learning from each other. Music for instance, we have some really knowledgeable people here as with building and just about everything.
[12:03] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): oddd
[12:04] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I'm not so sure, Leslie — survival seems to be the biggest objective we all have.
[12:04] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): All other objectives are secondary and latent
[12:04] Widget Whiteberry: hmm not for me G
[12:04] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): better
[12:04] Leslie Allandale: Then there are common goals
[12:04] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity):
[12:04] Cadence Theas: not for me either Gauis
[12:04] Tray (tray.rivera): what is that common goal for CDS?
[12:04] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Common goals, sure, but survival is the very goal of a community
[12:04] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): yes they can
[12:04] Pip Torok: A CLOSE SECOND IS TO _PROMOTE_ DEMOCRACY EVERY AND ANYWHERE
[12:04] Leslie Allandale: And a reason to pull together
[12:05] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Yes, Pip ㋡
[12:05] Cadence Theas: survival is not enough to keep a community together
[12:05] Pip Torok: (sorry caps)
[12:05] Cadence Theas: history is
[12:05] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): The goal of a state is to survive, but the goal of the citizens differs
[12:05] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Ours as a community of citizens is to facilitate democracy
[12:06] Cadence Theas: that is why I suggested that we have to transcend the state, Gauis
[12:06] Tor Karlsvalt: I think our common goal is to provide a platform for our interests. That could be social, technical in terms of building or perhaps allow people just to contribute to a larger community as a law maker or manager.
[12:06] Tor Karlsvalt: No to your question.
[12:06] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Transcend the state in what way, Cadence?
[12:06] Pip Torok: one cd be education in democratic practice
[12:06] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): The state is very much part of the goal of the community
[12:07] Tor Karlsvalt: You can be so fixated on the negative goal that when it is removed, one is lost and just retreats.
[12:07] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): if some thing is against some thing surely it well tair it down
[12:07] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker) nods to Tor
[12:07] Pip Torok: agree strongly
[12:07] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): i cant think let me finish my coffee
[12:07] Tor Karlsvalt: Happened here afer the AA merger
[12:07] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): lol
[12:07] Tor Karlsvalt: after*
[12:08] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): International Relations theory and Realism focus on this
[12:08] Tor Karlsvalt: That exhausted many
[12:08] MystiTool HUD 2.0.2: Colonia Nova Stats Warning: Time Dilation = 0.29 (<0.40), Sim FPS = 10 (<20)
[12:08] Pip Torok: suddenly aggression was redirected from communism to the civil society in the US
[12:09] Cadence Theas: the state is something that occurs almost in retrospect here. we really dont have many means of control other than social sanctions. So the state as an institution is more a way of validating what is already decided at the social level
[12:09] Cadence Theas: (to answer Guais question)
[12:09] Pip Torok: id say Cim-munire ,, to look-after each other
[12:09] Pip Torok: com-munire
[12:09] Tetrana Rotaru is offline.
[12:09] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): That goes to your back to your background in Cedar Island, Cadence
[12:09] Cadence Theas: to attach power to the state first is to obviate just how powerful the social community is
[12:10] Pip Torok: by vocal support
[12:10] Cadence Theas: but it is no less true here
[12:10] Pip Torok: id say yes
[12:10] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): hold on
[12:10] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): nvm pip said it
[12:10] Pip Torok: you can give comfort over longdistance
[12:10] Pip Torok: also information
[12:10] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): =.= neeed waky waky
[12:10] Pip Torok: also reassurance
[12:10] Sudane Erato: for many people in SL, community here is a major part of their RL lives
[12:11] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I think the state legitimises the decisions we make on a social level, Cadence
[12:11] Pip Torok: all the tings that can be done face2face
[12:11] Cadence Theas: yes, in hindsight
[12:11] Soro (soro.dagostino): Delia, your comments are not showing up in chat . . .
[12:11] Tor Karlsvalt: Well I am told sometimes to find what else SL has, but really for me, SL is the CDS for the most part.
[12:11] Cadence Theas: in retrospect
[12:11] Pip Torok: quite
[12:11] Rosie Gray: I think that this being a democratically run community, helps to make it a REAL community
[12:11] Cadence Theas: the state is a reaction to what has already occurred
[12:11] Cadence Theas: at least here in CDS
[12:11] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Yes, but we need the state to function as an estate
[12:11] Tor Karlsvalt: Very likely I would not log on as often without this community.
[12:11] Rosie Gray: yes we do Gaius
[12:11] Delia Lake: sorry Soro, I forgot tht not all could hear me
[12:11] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): (i want to voise its just to early for lol)
[12:12] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): The state is very much part of our historical model of democracy
[12:12] Rosie Gray: I wouldn't either Tor... this is a social space ㋡
[12:12] Tor Karlsvalt: yup
[12:12] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): it seems i missed the beginning
[12:12] Cadence Theas: and its a social experiment in democracy
[12:12] Noke Yuitza is offline.
[12:13] Rosie Gray: indeed
[12:13] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): It's necessary for competing interest groups, whereas transcending the state is necessary for deliberative democracy styles such as consensus-driven direct democracy
[12:13] Tray (tray.rivera) is offline.
[12:13] Cadence Theas: that is my point Gauis
[12:13] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): ("it" being the state)
[12:13] Cadence Theas: we are a small community
[12:13] Delia Lake: going back to what Sudane said, tht for a number of people SL is their social connection and so is important to their rl as well
[12:13] Rosie Gray: we could be an example for the future, for future endeavours in virtual communal living
[12:13] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Yes, but my point is that we can't divorce ourselves no from the state
[12:13] Cadence Theas: we can have the luxury of a more direct democracy
[12:13] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Yes, don't get me wrong, Cadence, I completely agree!
[12:14] Pip Torok: agree, Rosie
[12:14] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): so we are talking about a virtual community
[12:14] Sudane Erato is offline.
[12:14] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): If I had known about the difference between CDS and Cedar Island, I would much rather live in Cedar Island's system
[12:14] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): In that system, "justice" is reached by consensus, rather than by competition, negotiation, and compromise.
[12:14] Tor Karlsvalt: yeah, bur Cedar ultimately failed.
[12:14] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): (which is our system)
[12:14] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): i don't mean to be bold
[12:15] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Yes, Tor, but it didn't need to be that way
[12:15] Cadence Theas: but I am not saying we should be another Cedar Island
[12:15] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): but it is in suriouse need for evolve into the future if thats the case
[12:15] Cadence Theas: we should invent or evolve into a democracy
[12:15] Cadence Theas: we have enough history to know what has worked and what hasnt
[12:15] Tor Karlsvalt: As citizen owners we get passionate about the direction of the sims, but as significant number of us stick to the CDS because we feel like owners.
[12:15] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): If the CDS had developed into a confederation where each community had their own political system to govern itself but shared resources with eachother, all three systems could still survive
[12:16] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): not much is interested in it much lol allthough we all seem to be able to keep it up hehehehe
[12:16] Syl Normandy is offline.
[12:16] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Yes, that's true, Delia, but I would say that's because the "State" still very much exists here
[12:16] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): we have a great community though
[12:16] Rosie Gray: was it too much work?
[12:17] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I completely agree, Cadence — we should develop other systems of political power, Cadence
[12:17] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): We should experiment with deliberative and consensus-driven democracy within CDS
[12:17] Cadence Theas: but slowly
[12:17] Cadence Theas: step by step
[12:18] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Yes, and I think the first step should be to build an association for each sim where we come together and deliberate by consensus in the Cedar Island model
[12:18] Pip Torok: it cd be that the requirement to make a presentation wd only appeal to an "elite"
[12:18] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): i wouldn't mind
[12:18] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Then we should facilitate other associations which have specific goals in the AA model
[12:18] Pip Torok: and an "elite" by definition is not a majority of the community
[12:19] Cadence Theas: Gauis that wouldnt work for two reasons, one many people own property in more than one sim
[12:19] Rosie Gray: so the requirement of citizenship was to participate, but participation by requirement became a burden
[12:19] Cadence Theas: and two, people move around a lot
[12:19] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker) nods
[12:19] Cadence Theas: it has to be a CDS wide thing
[12:19] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I think we are too big for that, Cadence
[12:19] Delia Lake: regarding Cedar Island, one of the requirements of citizenship was each person was supposed to give 1 presentation per quarter. it was to be a topic of general interest or of an educational nature
[12:20] Delia Lake: it worked for a while but then dwindled
[12:20] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Hm...
[12:20] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): leadership
[12:20] Callipygian Christensen: We should also keep in mind that many may want representational democracy specifically because they are *not* required to attend meetings and such
[12:20] Leslie Allandale: I would think that Gaius' bicameral concept would work with one chamber based on participation, and the other on ownership
[12:20] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): That requires a lot of activity
[12:20] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): i am confused? did that poster change?
[12:20] Tor Karlsvalt: true Calli
[12:20] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): (to Delia)
[12:20] Cadence Theas: this is why I am saying we cant use the CI model
[12:20] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): And yes, Calli, that's true
[12:20] Callipygian Christensen: They may just want clear and consistent govt, and not be interested in experimental styles.
[12:20] Cadence Theas: specifically
[12:21] Cadence Theas: but the participatory spirit of CI is a good idea
[12:21] Tor Karlsvalt: That is good.
[12:21] Tor Karlsvalt: no
[12:21] Cadence Theas: and all we can do is encourage it
[12:21] Tor Karlsvalt: but remember to vote. 
[12:21] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Yes, Cadence, but I think if we want to experimentwith democracy that we must continue the Cedar Island model
[12:21] Rosie Gray: no I think it's fine that people become citizens and don't participate in the actual gov't
[12:21] Rosie Gray: nothing wrong with that
[12:21] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): For instance, if Leslie's Artisans' Park was to operate democratically, a deliberative democracy would be best
[12:21] Pip Torok: imo very true .. its typical of UK society that they wish to carry on their own business and leave politics to others
[12:21] Lilith Ivory: I came here because I liked the Sims but slowly got interested in the CDS politics too
[12:22] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): hmmm
[12:22] Tor Karlsvalt: They may have a lot to offer besides participation in government.
[12:23] Rosie Gray: yes, not everyone enjoys political debates, or meetings... but still want to support the democratic principle
[12:23] Cadence Theas: I am sorry, but I have to run I hope this is being recorded!! this has been a wonderful conversation
[12:23] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I think it leaves a lot to know that there are many ways to have democracy, I think that a bicameral republic would be best for our community. One for our elected representatives, another for deliberation and participation in direct democracy
[12:23] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker) nods to Rosie
[12:23] Cadence Theas: bye all
[12:23] Rosie Gray: bye Cadence
[12:23] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): awww
[12:23] Tor Karlsvalt: bye Cadence
[12:23] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): don't go
[12:23] Delia Lake: bye Cadence
[12:23] Pip Torok: in the UK we have a name for interfering government intruders : "nosey-parkers"
[12:23] Rosie Gray: hahha, Pip
[12:24] Tor Karlsvalt: haha
[12:24] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Our intrastatal organisations should run on the deliberative method, or the "board of executives" structure as in AA
[12:24] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): CLEO
[12:24] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): lol
[12:24] Pip Torok: ah!
[12:24] Callipygian Christensen: its a very Brit term lol
[12:24] Cadence Theas is offline.
[12:24] Rosie Gray: I know that term
[12:24] Rosie Gray: didn't know it was Brit
[12:24] Pip Torok: nor did I!
[12:24] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Brit and Commonwealth, perhaps
[12:25] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): nosey parker
[12:25] Callipygian Christensen: Gauius - I'd be much happier with you replacing your 'must's and your 'should's with 'might' and 'could'
[12:25] Tor Karlsvalt: yes!
[12:25] Rosie Gray: this is another point about democracy, that we are most familiar with the one that we come from
[12:25] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): ㋡
[12:25] Pip Torok: agree with calli, Gaius
[12:25] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Thats true, Calli
[12:26] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): My apologies
[12:26] Rosie Gray: I agree with Calli too
[12:26] junivers Stockholm is offline.
[12:26] Rosie Gray: that's interesting, about the AA folks
[12:26] Vic Mornington (victor1st.mornington) is online.
[12:27] Rosie Gray: there might be people here who aren't from democracies too
[12:27] Tor Karlsvalt: I mean where else can a Chicagoan joke about bad Mayors better than in CDS where there are so many Canadians who love Mayor Ford.
[12:27] Widget Whiteberry: Irah, do you want to speak?
[12:27] junivers Stockholm is online.
[12:27] Pip Torok: their instincts werent very democratic you mean
[12:27] Rosie Gray gives Tor a POKE!
[12:27] Catz Jewell Lane (catz.jewell): LOL Tor
[12:27] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): can any one hear?
[12:27] Tor Karlsvalt ouch
[12:27] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): We could form a sim/neighbourhood association from many of the sims in CDS based on participation
[12:27] Soro (soro.dagostino): Too many groups.
[12:27] Widget Whiteberry: we don't need more layers
[12:27] Rosie Gray: I can hear someone saying 'testing'
[12:27] Rosie Gray: maybe that's you
[12:27] Pip Torok: I can irah .. try moing closer to delia
[12:28] Brandy Maltas (kalli.birman) is offline.
[12:28] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): makes mic a mute point then lol
[12:28] Widget Whiteberry: we need people to populate what we do have
[12:28] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): yes
[12:28] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): i need to
[12:28] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): how
[12:28] Callipygian Christensen: we can hear him Delia
[12:28] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): no every one isin range
[12:28] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): That's what democracy is about — having different identities and communities which over lap to come to decisions
[12:28] Catz Jewell Lane (catz.jewell): I heard ya Irah
[12:28] Callipygian Christensen: you can boost his volume individually
[12:28] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): all is in the yellow circle
[12:29] Widget Whiteberry: If you want to speak, tell us so that we can move your slider in nearby voice
[12:29] Callipygian Christensen: afk
[12:29] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): i mite be at the bottem
[12:29] Catz Jewell Lane (catz.jewell): hear ya Irah loud and clear
[12:30] Lilith Ivory: I can hear you now
[12:30] Soro (soro.dagostino): I suggest our use of commissions that invite all interested citizens are best for CDS
[12:30] Widget Whiteberry: I hear Irah typing but not talking
[12:30] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity) is online.
[12:30] Rosie Gray: I think that the CDS is a good opportunity for spreading information about democracy to those that don't have the privilege of living in one
[12:30] Pip Torok: i suggest a firestorm expert get in touch with irah and sort it out
[12:30] Catz Jewell Lane (catz.jewell): lol pip
[12:30] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): That's a good idea, Soro — having deliberative democracy in our commissions
[12:30] Leslie Allandale: focus
[12:30] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): yes
[12:31] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): no point in micing in such conversations if not all can hear lol
[12:31] Catz Jewell Lane (catz.jewell): sort of like a homeowners association?
[12:31] Leslie Allandale: one thing we all had when Cleo was here
[12:31] Widget Whiteberry: Values ... statements of values would be helpful
[12:31] Leslie Allandale: Bring in VS style enterprises
[12:31] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): That's what I was suggesting Catz, about sim associations. But others didn't seem to like the idea ㋡
[12:31] Widget Whiteberry: separate from each year's agenda
[12:31] Pip Torok: i think the latter .. an evolution of purpose
[12:32] Pip Torok: the outside world evolves .. we must too
[12:32] Leslie Allandale: I like the idea, in principle, Gaius
[12:32] Rosie Gray has never heard a single good thing about strata home owners associations
[12:32] Lilith Ivory: I hear a lot of disturbing background noises from you irah
[12:32] Soro (soro.dagostino): There are only so many people . . .
[12:32] Widget Whiteberry: Lilith, go to nearby voice and lower Irah
[12:32] Soro (soro.dagostino): Many have parcels in many sims of CDS.
[12:33] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Then one can be a member of many associations, Soro ㋡
[12:33] Widget Whiteberry: Soro, pls say more about what that means to you
[12:33] Soro (soro.dagostino): Now you want them to spend all their time in many meetings.
[12:33] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Not "want" — have a chance to
[12:33] Soro (soro.dagostino): Both in industry and Non-profits -- that is self defeating.
[12:34] Soro (soro.dagostino): 1) nothing gets done. 2) they are repetitively boring.
[12:34] Tor Karlsvalt: How much of CDS was a supposed to be an artist commune?
[12:35] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I would love the opportunity to work with my neighbours in CN to hold events, build communal structures, etc.: deliberative democracy would be best for this.
[12:35] Pip Torok: it shd be part imo but only part
[12:35] Callipygian Christensen: So I could own a parcel or two in each region and ensure MY way of thinking carried more weight than someone who had all their land in one..I like it..Icould rule CDS indirectly *ahem*
[12:35] Widget Whiteberry: we can, at this moment, use 30+ volunteers to populate the exisitng layers of organization and Gaius, sounds like you want to be part of the Executive branch
[12:35] Tor Karlsvalt: I gather Ulrika might have thought of it more along those lines. Well it did seem to focus on IP rights and SL building. Yes for creators then.
[12:37] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): That's a very pessimistic way of looking at it, Calli! I was approaching it as a neighbourhood association to work in sim-specific, artisanal/craft functions, not to make legislative decisions
[12:37] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): And it could be a model for the executive, Widget ㋡
[12:37] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I hope Pat will be reading this!
[12:37] Callipygian Christensen: then it can ahppen tomorrow Gauius..any region can get together and do that - it doesnt need to be attached to any gov't model
[12:37] Widget Whiteberry wonders what Abby is thining
[12:38] Widget Whiteberry: thinking*
[12:38] MinisterGrimObscurity (irahgrimobscurity): i am heading out, i just cant keep up
[12:38] Tor Karlsvalt: see you Irah
[12:38] Rosie Gray: bye Irah
[12:38] Callipygian Christensen: bye Irah
[12:38] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Bye Irah ㋡
[12:38] Pip Torok: bye irah
[12:38] Delia Lake: bye Irah
[12:38] Soro (soro.dagostino): Shame Delia's comments didn't make the transcript
[12:39] Widget Whiteberry: Tor that is Delia's mic
[12:39] Widget Whiteberry: Delia, are you wearing your mic?
[12:40] Widget Whiteberry: if you are wearing it, pls take it off
[12:40] Catz Jewell Lane (catz.jewell): alot of static
[12:40] Widget Whiteberry: waiting to hear Delia with whatever change she just instituted
[12:42] Delia Lake: so one of the questions I have now, given this conversation is what are some things that would be possible to do in a virtual 3D space, that would be either very difficult or impossible to stat in solid space
[12:42] Widget Whiteberry: Shall we stop recording now?
[12:42] Widget Whiteberry: I can always read the chat into the record
[12:42] Delia Lake: and could have benefits that could be transferable to solid space once developed and underway
[12:43] Rosie Gray: hmmm, interesting question
[12:43] Widget Whiteberry: ok, ending recording now ....................
[12:43] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Well, I think the deliberative manner of democracy has fallen out of use in the real world
[12:43] Delia Lake: yes we can the can stop the recording
[12:43] Pip Torok: Im sure there are delia .. but one barrier will always be imo timezones
[12:43] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Yes, Pip, just that we are all here is a constraint in RL
[12:44] Pip Torok: agree guillaume therefore its emcimbant upon us to reverse that where we can
[12:44] Delia Lake: that's in rl tooo Pip re timezones. I have rl clients in Hong Kong
[12:44] Tor Karlsvalt: Hi Shep
[12:44] Catz Jewell Lane (catz.jewell): H Shep
[12:44] Pip Torok: ah .. of course!
[12:44] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): There are probably less people interested in experimental/participatory democracy in our RL communities than people sitting here right now!
[12:44] Soro (soro.dagostino): Hello love
[12:44] Delia Lake: hi Shep
[12:44] Shep (shep.titian): Hello asll ... rezzing
[12:45] Widget Whiteberry: technology allows us to come together, but presents challenges to do so
[12:45] Shep (shep.titian): apologies for lateness
[12:45] Widget Whiteberry: time zones is only one
[12:45] Tor Karlsvalt nods at widget
[12:45] Tor Karlsvalt: Someone mentioned timezones.
[12:45] Widget Whiteberry: which is why I like using multiple platforms
[12:45] Pip Torok: at one time manykibbuzim were intesely interested in participatory democracy
[12:45] Widget Whiteberry: in some we are synchronous
[12:46] Widget Whiteberry: in other, we needn't be
[12:46] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Well, in RL, we all lead busy and stressful lives.
[12:46] Leslie Allandale: and not in sl?
[12:46] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): If we view SL as a "second life", then experimenting with democracy is that stressful part.
[12:47] Leslie Allandale: I have a meeting at 2, so will have to go to stress about that.
[12:47] Callipygian Christensen: One of the problems of any group activity here is the time needed to actualy type in and read the text. Participatory/deliberative/pickanother democracy can be a painfully slow process in text.
[12:47] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): But, IMO, a very important stress for our RL
[12:47] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): ㋡
[12:47] Pip Torok: for many avies SL and RL form a contimuum
[12:47] Leslie Allandale: waves
[12:47] Rosie Gray: bye Leslie
[12:47] Tor Karlsvalt: bye Leslie
[12:47] Leslie Allandale is offline.
[12:47] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): That's true, Calli — it's an issue for us in SL that is a benefit in RL
[12:48] Widget Whiteberry: for each of us, it's different ... there is a huge range of 'use cases'
[12:48] Delia Lake: yet as a builder here in the CDS I could start a project, leave it in a partially completed state and Rosie when she came inworld could continue the build, and then Cadence could pick up on the build where Rosie left off. that is timezone independent
[12:49] Rosie Gray: yes that's true... kind of like rl builders
[12:49] Rosie Gray: ㋡
[12:49] Pip Torok: true but there needs to be both trust and close collaboration
[12:49] Widget Whiteberry: Delia, that presumes you three agree on what you are creating, and division of labor
[12:49] Widget Whiteberry: with those and some organization... big yes
[12:49] Rosie Gray: yes it does, both what Widget and Pip said
[12:50] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): In what areas can we work to develop that sort of collaboration?
[12:50] Pip Torok: and there timezone cd well be an advantage
[12:50] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): IMO, that would build trust for all of us
[12:50] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): (or at least for those involved)
[12:51] Delia Lake: that would be more true in rl than in sl I think. in sl it is esier to both undo and to creat theheretofor improbible or unimagined
[12:51] Pip Torok: gaius i'd reverse the question .. what reas CDNT benefit from that kind of collaboration
[12:51] Rosie Gray: and far less at stake in SL than in RL
[12:51] Pip Torok: reas=areas
[12:52] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): That's a good pensive question, but I was interested in what areas we could apply that collaboration for the CDS
[12:52] Pip Torok: i see
[12:52] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I think our PIOs this last term have developed that sort of collaboration
[12:52] Rosie Gray: I think they did between themselves, but not with the Chancellor
[12:52] Catz Jewell Lane (catz.jewell): Thank You Gauis
[12:53] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Yes, nor with the community
[12:53] Pip Torok: well hey were lon-time friends well before SL as it happens
[12:53] Rosie Gray nods
[12:53] Tor Karlsvalt nods at Rosie and Gaius.
[12:53] Catz Jewell Lane (catz.jewell): who pip? Jerry & I?
[12:53] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): It would be nice, vis-a-vis Widget's comment earlier about collaboration with volunteers, if we have a collaborative democracy in that way
[12:53] Pip Torok: abby and Molly (+Tandra and Nic)
[12:54] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): *about Executive collaboration
[12:54] Delia Lake: Abby and Molly and Catz and Shep all worked on the circus I think.
[12:54] Delia Lake: collaboratively
[12:54] Rosie Gray: most of the Chancellor's have been quite collaborative in nature... until Ceasar thought he was Caesar
[12:54] Catz Jewell Lane (catz.jewell): I will work with anyone
[12:55] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Yes, but that could be made more official, I think
[12:55] Soro (soro.dagostino): Catz that is not saying you and Jerry didn't do a good job of the PIO work.
[12:55] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): The Chancellor can have collaborative meetings with volunteers (collaborative democracy based on participation)
[12:55] Widget Whiteberry: how so, Gaius? And how would it be beter to be more officil?
[12:55] Lilith Ivory: I think this has been an improvement during the last term as I remember in the past Chancellor and PIO have been left alonre doing all the work mostly
[12:55] Rosie Gray: but this shows how much the actual laws are important to a democracy
[12:55] Rosie Gray: because you cannot have it come down to individual personalities
[12:56] Patrice Cournoyer is offline.
[12:56] Widget Whiteberry: nods to Rosie and Lil
[12:56] Callipygian Christensen: Collaboration is a skill set that not everyone possesses, or want to possess. You can really legislate it because by it's nature, it can be easily undermined by participants who dont 'buy in' to the process.
[12:56] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Well, if it is done unofficially as in the way Rosie was talking about, Widget, it's not really participating as a democracy and experimentally
[12:56] Callipygian Christensen: *can't really legislate it
[12:56] Widget Whiteberry: of course it is
[12:56] Rosie Gray: and this is true of real life too
[12:56] Widget Whiteberry: we have a culture here
[12:57] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Well, of course there are areas where we need executive power and where our political culture restricts us
[12:57] Widget Whiteberry: and, like this very conversation, the culture provides a place for it
[12:57] Delia Lake: legislated collaboration is coersion and conscription more than collaboration
[12:57] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I just think we could have "volunteer meetings" with the Chancellor, such as for major events as the Floralia or Oktoberfest
[12:57] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Aye, Delia
[12:57] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker) nods to Widget
[12:57] Widget Whiteberry: yes, I hope Pat is tht kind Chancellor
[12:58] Soro (soro.dagostino): You set out a mission statement -- and change it as the group progresses.
[12:58] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I think he will be ㋡
[12:58] Rosie Gray: sometimes that would be desirable Gaius, but sometimes not
[12:58] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Exactly Rosie
[12:58] Widget Whiteberry: Gaius, ask him... on the forum, in response to his platform
[12:58] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): That's why I used to let my neighbours of changes to my forum or to my place in LA, to get their input in a democratic way
[12:58] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I'll raise the topic ㋡
[12:58] Delia Lake: legislation or rules can help to set the stage for self-organization and collaboration though
[12:59] Pip Torok: I hate to go but there a Thinkers meeting in 2 minutes
[12:59] Widget Whiteberry: go think!
[12:59] Pip Torok: so bye all
[12:59] Callipygian Christensen: we aren't thinking enough foor you Pip?
[12:59] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): And Rosie is right, there are times when doing that is undesireable
[12:59] Delia Lake: bye Pip
[12:59] Pip Torok: ... duh????
[12:59] Lilith Ivory: I think our worst problem is being democratic AND getting things done in time
[12:59] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker) nods
[12:59] Tor Karlsvalt: never been a Thinker.
[12:59] Rosie Gray: which is why we rely on having a Chancellor who is collaborative minded, fair minded, and has a good grasp of project management
[12:59] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): But, as Calli pointed out earlier, democracy in SL is bound to be less efficient
[13:00] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Anyway, folks, it's well past lunch time for me and my friend/fellow citizen of Sandus is waiting on me.
[13:00] Tor Karlsvalt: bye Gaius
[13:00] Widget Whiteberry: cheers!
[13:00] Lilith Ivory: bye Gaius
[13:00] Rosie Gray: bye Gaius
[13:00] Soro (soro.dagostino): G'by G.
[13:00] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Thank yuo for being subject to my diverse and wild thoughts/ideas on collaborative democracy ㋡
[13:00] Callipygian Christensen: bye Gauius
[13:01] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): It's helpful both for CDS and for my job as a leader of a micronation ㋡
[13:01] Delia Lake: bye Gaius
[13:01] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker) is offline.
[13:02] Red (talkwithmarie) is offline.
[13:03] Ivy Lane is online.
[13:03] Widget Whiteberry: Is there more to be said now?
[13:03] Soro (soro.dagostino): Heheheh -- who's next?
[13:03] Soro (soro.dagostino): Now that G is gone.
[13:03] Widget Whiteberry: would you all like to do something like this again?
[13:03] Lilith Ivory: absolutely
[13:03] Soro (soro.dagostino): Very good.
[13:03] AbbyRose Abbot: Yes, please Widget.
[13:03] Widget Whiteberry: with another speaker/leader?
[13:03] Lilith Ivory: this was pretty interesting and I am sorry I was late
[13:03] AbbyRose Abbot: Thank you Delia.
[13:04] Soro (soro.dagostino): Needs to be available for everyone.
[13:04] Widget Whiteberry: Lilith, I'll post the chat
[13:04] Lilith Ivory: thank you Widget
[13:04] Soro (soro.dagostino): Even if typing is slow.
[13:04] Rosie Gray: this was interesting ㋡
[13:04] AbbyRose Abbot: It was very interesting.
[13:04] Widget Whiteberry: I need to take a look at the podcast .....
[13:05] Widget Whiteberry: and perhaps read in more of the comments
[13:05] Tor Karlsvalt: oh you are making a podcast?
[13:05] Widget Whiteberry: I recorded this Tor
[13:05] Widget Whiteberry: for possible use by CDS
[13:05] Lilith Ivory: sometimes I would like to hear a lecture about the original idea of founding CDS as I think those ideas might have gotten lost or changed during the years
[13:06] Tor Karlsvalt: You know we could do that as a CDS New Channel.
[13:06] Widget Whiteberry: Lil - Delia started there
[13:06] Lilith Ivory: ah good
[13:06] Tor Karlsvalt: Delia touched on that Lilith.
[13:06] Soro (soro.dagostino): RL calls.
[13:06] Delia Lake: thank you all for coming and participating and discussing today
[13:06] Soro (soro.dagostino): See you all.
[13:06] Lilith Ivory: see you guys
[13:06] Callipygian Christensen: I shall do one on 'why benevolent dictatorship is a much more efficient and peaceful way to run things'
[[13:06] Delia Lake: bye Soro
[13:06] Tor Karlsvalt: Well the Podcast could be linked to the portal.
[13:06] Widget Whiteberry: laughs
