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Commission Meeting Transcript August 17, 2014

Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:53 pm
by Rosie Gray
[2014/08/17 10:01:49] Rosie Gray: okay, meeting starts!
[2014/08/17 10:01:52] Pat (patroklus.murakami): wow 50 responses? thats pretty good!
[2014/08/17 10:01:53] Rosie Gray: ㋡
[2014/08/17 10:02:16] Rosie Gray: Bromo might join us if he can
[2014/08/17 10:02:24] Lilith Ivory: that´s awesome
[2014/08/17 10:02:39] Rosie Gray: so, 3 items for our Agenda today (sorry I didn't write it up)
[2014/08/17 10:02:45] Rosie Gray: 1) review the survey
[2014/08/17 10:03:06] Rosie Gray: 2) decide on our in-world meeting times and format
[2014/08/17 10:03:21] Rosie Gray: 3) Bromo's question about allowing anyone who wants to sit into these meetings
[2014/08/17 10:03:39] Rosie Gray: anything else to add to the Agenda?
[2014/08/17 10:04:02] Pat (patroklus.murakami): i have no further items to add
[2014/08/17 10:04:11] Lilith Ivory: format means the questions we are gonna ask right?
[2014/08/17 10:04:38] Rosie Gray: yes I think so
[2014/08/17 10:04:55] Rosie Gray: and anything else re those meetings we want to standardize
[2014/08/17 10:05:05] Lilith Ivory: very good
[2014/08/17 10:05:14] Rosie Gray: ㋡
[2014/08/17 10:05:57] Rosie Gray: so, if there are no other items, let's discuss the survey
[2014/08/17 10:06:08] Rosie Gray: maybe Widget can give her thoughts first?
[2014/08/17 10:06:10] Lilith Ivory: ok
[2014/08/17 10:09:02] Rosie Gray: okay Widget is doing a little analysing first
[2014/08/17 10:09:17] Rosie Gray: first impressions, Pat, LIl?
[2014/08/17 10:09:19] Pat (patroklus.murakami) /me is reading the results too...
[2014/08/17 10:10:16] Pat (patroklus.murakami): on question 1, opinion seems pretty split between the options
[2014/08/17 10:10:19] Lilith Ivory: can we say it looks like the mayority wants to have a mostly land Sim?
[2014/08/17 10:10:47] Rosie Gray: yes I think that's fair to say Lil
[2014/08/17 10:11:01] Widget Whiteberry: Yes, if we combine agree with strongly agreee, then 60% want mostly land
[2014/08/17 10:11:06] Pat (patroklus.murakami): there\s a marginally higher support for a land-based sim but several options are tied - water/new world/no new sim
[2014/08/17 10:12:07] Lilith Ivory: we should keep the idea of having a Sim elsewhere in mind indeed
[2014/08/17 10:12:14] Widget Whiteberry: while 60% want a mostly land sim, no where near that number want to expand their own holdings
[2014/08/17 10:12:36] Rosie Gray /me nods
[2014/08/17 10:12:38] Widget Whiteberry: eslsewhere. but not instead
[2014/08/17 10:12:44] Lilith Ivory /me has not red so far yet but was concerned about this too
[2014/08/17 10:13:24] Rosie Gray: 61% agree or strongly agree to adding a mostly land region
[2014/08/17 10:13:39] Pat (patroklus.murakami): tbh i think you could take qn 2 as justification for any course of action! new land sim. or a combo of new land and water. or a new SL sim and one someone else. or not doing anything!
[2014/08/17 10:13:46] Widget Whiteberry: Do either of you happen to know how many people cast a vote on the referendum?
[2014/08/17 10:13:51] Rosie Gray: 34% agree or strongly agree to a mostly water region
[2014/08/17 10:14:17] Rosie Gray: so clearly there is a strong draw for a mostly land region (between those two options)
[2014/08/17 10:14:26] Pat (patroklus.murakami): but rose that discoutns the views of people who disagree or strongly disagree
[2014/08/17 10:14:32] Pat (patroklus.murakami): *rosie
[2014/08/17 10:14:42] Lilith Ivory: hmm don´t we have the election results somewhere - I think it was written at this page too
[2014/08/17 10:14:50] Pat (patroklus.murakami): i've been looking at the average ratings which take that into account too
[2014/08/17 10:14:53] Widget Whiteberry: brb
[2014/08/17 10:14:54] Rosie Gray: yes I think so Lil
[2014/08/17 10:15:16] Pat (patroklus.murakami): about 65 voted in the referendum. i forget the exact figures
[2014/08/17 10:15:48] Lilith Ivory: and the majority wanted to have a new Sim
[2014/08/17 10:15:54] Rosie Gray: yes
[2014/08/17 10:16:31] Rosie Gray: okay, 13.64% either strongly disagree or disagree about adding a mostly land region
[2014/08/17 10:16:46] Rosie Gray: and 31.82% either strongly disagree or disagree about adding a mostly water region
[2014/08/17 10:17:15] Pat (patroklus.murakami): the three most popular choices, in aggregate, were 'add a new land', 'add new water' and 'add new SL region and an outpost elsewhere'
[2014/08/17 10:17:42] Pat (patroklus.murakami): 3.7, 3.0 and 3.0 respectively
[2014/08/17 10:17:47] Lilith Ivory: for me this looks like we should build a mostly land Sim now as we need to make a decission I think :)
[2014/08/17 10:18:44] Rosie Gray: there is also the issue of who said they would be interested in adding new parcels to their land holdings, vs. those that had no interest in that, or wanted to trade rather than acquire more
[2014/08/17 10:18:58] Pat (patroklus.murakami): well we could add more than one. i think this would justify us adding a land sim, a water sim and outpost in a new world!
[2014/08/17 10:19:16] Rosie Gray /me wonders if Pat is looking at the same results as she is
[2014/08/17 10:19:25] Rosie Gray: lol
[2014/08/17 10:19:30] Lilith Ivory: adding Sims is easy but filling them might become a problem (again)
[2014/08/17 10:19:39] Pat (patroklus.murakami): it probably does not justify doing nothing or only opening a sim elsewhere
[2014/08/17 10:19:59] Pat (patroklus.murakami): rosie, are you looking at the average scores at the end of the table?
[2014/08/17 10:20:06] Rosie Gray: yes
[2014/08/17 10:20:13] Rosie Gray: I'm looking at all
[2014/08/17 10:20:37] Pat (patroklus.murakami): so, i'm just considering qn 2 for now
[2014/08/17 10:20:49] Pat (patroklus.murakami): there are three clear leaders and two less popular options
[2014/08/17 10:22:29] Pat (patroklus.murakami): i think those could justify a new land sim, a new water sim and an outpost elsewhere. the next qns are 'what can we deliver?' and 'what will sell?'
[2014/08/17 10:22:46] Rosie Gray: I think we need to consider all the questions/answers
[2014/08/17 10:22:55] Lilith Ivory: I agree
[2014/08/17 10:23:27] Rosie Gray: question 3 shows only 20.83% would acquire more parcels
[2014/08/17 10:23:32] Rosie Gray: that's not very high
[2014/08/17 10:24:07] Rosie Gray: that's only 10 people
[2014/08/17 10:24:28] Pat (patroklus.murakami): surely we would expect most of the people buying land in the new sim to be new people?
[2014/08/17 10:24:44] Rosie Gray: that would be ideal ㋡
[2014/08/17 10:25:08] Rosie Gray: and good point
[2014/08/17 10:25:18] Widget Whiteberry: back and catching up
[2014/08/17 10:25:23] Lilith Ivory: 10 people who are willing to support a new Sim and others trying to invite new people does not sound bad to me
[2014/08/17 10:25:26] Pat (patroklus.murakami): 17 said they invite friends to buy a parcel
[2014/08/17 10:25:40] Rosie Gray /me nods
[2014/08/17 10:25:43] Lilith Ivory: as we won´t get broke if the Sim needs some time to fill
[2014/08/17 10:25:45] Pat (patroklus.murakami): it's a better answer than for the water parcel idea
[2014/08/17 10:26:01] Rosie Gray: wb, Widget
[2014/08/17 10:26:07] Lilith Ivory: wb Widget
[2014/08/17 10:26:39] Pat (patroklus.murakami): q6 is interesting. ppl don't want to pay for sailing it would seem :(
[2014/08/17 10:26:57] Rosie Gray: it's pretty specialized
[2014/08/17 10:27:14] Pat (patroklus.murakami): q7 shows little support for buying water parcels too
[2014/08/17 10:27:20] Lilith Ivory: I am one of those as I know a homestead with 4-5 parcels and water can support itself
[2014/08/17 10:27:35] Lilith Ivory: and I´m not into sailing lol
[2014/08/17 10:27:56] Rosie Gray: I'm not either, but I don't mind the idea of a mostly water sim
[2014/08/17 10:28:12] Rosie Gray: not sure I want to pay for someone else's sailing though
[2014/08/17 10:28:15] Pat (patroklus.murakami): q8 shows little support for buying into a new grid too.... :((
[2014/08/17 10:28:31] Lilith Ivory: I don´t mind that idea either but there are ways to get it without all of us having to pay more
[2014/08/17 10:28:33] Widget Whiteberry: Lilith, does it follow from that that if we had 5 people who would buy n that we could add a water sim? and is a homestead sim sufficient for saiing?
[2014/08/17 10:29:08] Widget Whiteberry: I would have a parcel on a mostly water sim.... and I'm not a sailor
[2014/08/17 10:29:18] Rosie Gray: good point about 1 homestead sim being enough for sailing
[2014/08/17 10:29:30] Lilith Ivory: New Toulouse had a homestead Sim with 4 or 5 parcels on little islands and the resiudents there had to pay only a little more than on the main Sims
[2014/08/17 10:29:36] Lilith Ivory: like on Monastery
[2014/08/17 10:29:41] Rosie Gray: I would think the serious sailors like to go where there is a lot of water
[2014/08/17 10:29:44] Lilith Ivory: those parcels were always sold out
[2014/08/17 10:29:53] Widget Whiteberry: Pat, I think we deal with new grid by having a parcel rather than a whole sim
[2014/08/17 10:29:55] Rosie Gray: that's interesting Lil
[2014/08/17 10:30:17] Lilith Ivory: I am sure Miz Gabi would tell us more detail about how it was done :)
[2014/08/17 10:30:33] Lilith Ivory: I lived on that water Sim for a while and loved it
[2014/08/17 10:30:51] Rosie Gray: ㋡
[2014/08/17 10:31:03] Pat (patroklus.murakami): one of the comments talks about extending LA with a water sim. it would make it more of a point to have a water parcel in LA since right now you can't really sail anywhere!
[2014/08/17 10:31:04] Widget Whiteberry: We could have used a question asking if people preferred parcels that border water
[2014/08/17 10:31:30] Rosie Gray: most people like parcels bordering water, I think
[2014/08/17 10:32:08] Lilith Ivory: looks like it
[2014/08/17 10:32:13] Widget Whiteberry: well, I* do.... but I'd love to know what 50 people think... maybe it's a question for the forums and for a public meeting
[2014/08/17 10:32:40] Rosie Gray: we can add that to the list of questions we ask in our in-world meetings
[2014/08/17 10:32:43] Lilith Ivory: the preferences for a Sim in the mountains might be different .)
[2014/08/17 10:32:46] Widget Whiteberry: btw, is (name removed for privacy) a citizen now?
[2014/08/17 10:33:04] Rosie Gray: I don't know
[2014/08/17 10:33:09] Lilith Ivory: me neither
[2014/08/17 10:33:09] Rosie Gray: checking the land transfers
[2014/08/17 10:33:36] Widget Whiteberry: we had a few respondants who were not on the July census
[2014/08/17 10:34:37] Leslie Allandale: entered chat range (3.51 m).
[2014/08/17 10:34:42] Rosie Gray: we said they had to be 'current citizens'
[2014/08/17 10:34:49] Rosie Gray: hi Les
[2014/08/17 10:34:51] Pat (patroklus.murakami): hi leslie
[2014/08/17 10:34:57] Widget Whiteberry: yes, I was just using it as a point of reference
[2014/08/17 10:35:00] Leslie Allandale: Hi Rosie.
[2014/08/17 10:35:02] Leslie Allandale: Hi all
[2014/08/17 10:35:09] Lilith Ivory: Hi Les :)
[2014/08/17 10:38:50] Leslie Allandale: left chat range.
[2014/08/17 10:39:34] Rosie Gray: I can't seem to find (name removed for privacy) land transfers
[2014/08/17 10:39:57] Lilith Ivory: is it a big problem if he slipped in?
[2014/08/17 10:40:16] Rosie Gray: we said only current citizens
[2014/08/17 10:40:17] Widget Whiteberry: we would want to remove his survey from the set
[2014/08/17 10:40:26] Lilith Ivory /me nods
[2014/08/17 10:40:38] Rosie Gray: anyone know where his parcel is?
[2014/08/17 10:40:39] Lilith Ivory: we´d need to ask someone to check the hippo list maybe
[2014/08/17 10:41:31] Pat (patroklus.murakami): we could ask sudane to check when he bought a parcel
[2014/08/17 10:41:58] Rosie Gray: yes we could... but if we can just verify through the land changes and go look at his Hippo, that would be more expedient
[2014/08/17 10:42:06] Widget Whiteberry: (Name removed for privacy) was also not on the July Census, but I think you all know him
[2014/08/17 10:42:37] Rosie Gray: I don't think I know him
[2014/08/17 10:43:08] Rosie Gray: you do?
[2014/08/17 10:43:13] Lilith Ivory: sounds somehow familiar
[2014/08/17 10:43:24] Rosie Gray: his name is familiar to me as well
[2014/08/17 10:43:25] Pat (patroklus.murakami): i know the name
[2014/08/17 10:43:44] Pat (patroklus.murakami): should we spend time trying to verify citizens now though? might take up a lot of our time
[2014/08/17 10:44:23] Lilith Ivory: (name removed for privacy) is not even in the CDS group
[2014/08/17 10:45:41] Pat (patroklus.murakami): just one point on the survey, the comments have a date and time attached so could be used to identify particular avatar's views. i think that should be removed
[2014/08/17 10:46:04] Widget Whiteberry: he crashed or logged, I'll watch for him
[2014/08/17 10:47:55] Widget Whiteberry: so where are we?
[2014/08/17 10:48:21] Rosie Gray: well I was looking for (name removed for privacy's) name on the land transfers
[2014/08/17 10:48:29] Rosie Gray: but maybe that's not his name
[2014/08/17 10:48:30] Pat (patroklus.murakami): i was saying the survey needs to have personal data removed before it's published
[2014/08/17 10:48:49] Pat (patroklus.murakami): or people's views will made available to everyone
[2014/08/17 10:48:52] Rosie Gray: why Pat?
[2014/08/17 10:48:53] Widget Whiteberry: yes, agreed... re publishing
[2014/08/17 10:48:59] Pat (patroklus.murakami): and some will have seen it as private
[2014/08/17 10:48:59] Rosie Gray: we didn't do that before
[2014/08/17 10:49:01] Lilith Ivory: I agree
[2014/08/17 10:49:03] Widget Whiteberry: though you can't see wwho voted how
[2014/08/17 10:49:12] Pat (patroklus.murakami): no, but you can see how made which comment
[2014/08/17 10:49:16] Lilith Ivory: looks like a lot of people are sensitive about that
[2014/08/17 10:49:17] Rosie Gray: right, you can't tell who made comments
[2014/08/17 10:49:30] Widget Whiteberry: hmm actually you can infer
[2014/08/17 10:49:30] Pat (patroklus.murakami): you can by looking at the date and time they were made
[2014/08/17 10:49:34] Rosie Gray: well, if you think we should
[2014/08/17 10:49:47] Widget Whiteberry: good idea to strip names from the responses
[2014/08/17 10:49:50] Rosie Gray: I dont see anything contentious
[2014/08/17 10:50:04] Rosie Gray: but if you all think so, agreed ㋡
[2014/08/17 10:50:05] Widget Whiteberry: it's a matter of principle
[2014/08/17 10:50:08] Pat (patroklus.murakami): there are some which are. they mention individual avatars for example
[2014/08/17 10:50:15] Lilith Ivory: I think it should be kept private wo answered the survey (and who did not)
[2014/08/17 10:50:23] Pat (patroklus.murakami): and their nefarious plans :0
[2014/08/17 10:50:29] Pat (patroklus.murakami): mwuhahaha
[2014/08/17 10:51:34] Pat (patroklus.murakami): was the purpose of the survey to enable us to make an unambiguous recommendation to the RA on next steps for a new sim?
[2014/08/17 10:51:41] Rosie Gray: I've gone back to January and still don't see (name removed for privacy)
[2014/08/17 10:51:53] Widget Whiteberry: it was to help us think
[2014/08/17 10:51:56] Rosie Gray: yes, I would say so Pat
[2014/08/17 10:52:12] Widget Whiteberry: and does suggest some questions for public meetings
[2014/08/17 10:52:30] Lilith Ivory: yes
[2014/08/17 10:52:44] Pat (patroklus.murakami): yes. as the survey results require some interpretation. they are not unambiguous
[2014/08/17 10:53:06] Rosie Gray: and we may find clarification through our inworld meetings
[2014/08/17 10:53:19] Widget Whiteberry: and on the forum
[2014/08/17 10:53:48] Rosie Gray: I'm not sure about the forum
[2014/08/17 10:53:54] Rosie Gray: what does everyone else think?
[2014/08/17 10:54:24] Widget Whiteberry: what's your hesitation about, Rosie?
[2014/08/17 10:54:29] Rosie Gray: well
[2014/08/17 10:54:34] Pat (patroklus.murakami): i think we should use the forums too
[2014/08/17 10:54:38] Rosie Gray: not very many people use the forums
[2014/08/17 10:54:58] Pat (patroklus.murakami): if all we get is garbage, nm. but there's the possiblity of a sensible debate/discussion
[2014/08/17 10:55:03] Rosie Gray: only the same group of people... and I think it might skew what the majority thinks
[2014/08/17 10:55:44] Lilith Ivory: we have to be careful not to get lost in endless talks again as we need to get something done too :)
[2014/08/17 10:55:47] Widget Whiteberry: we'll want to post logs of public meetings, so why not start some threads to ask for clarifiction. We could wait till afte the public meetings
[2014/08/17 10:56:03] Leslie Allandale: entered chat range (3.20 m).
[2014/08/17 10:56:23] Rosie Gray: hi Les
[2014/08/17 10:56:26] Pat (patroklus.murakami): i think you need to post to the forums first so people have a chance to read the survey results. once this transcript is posted, people will start talking
[2014/08/17 10:56:49] Widget Whiteberry: oh Les, good!
[2014/08/17 10:56:54] Lilith Ivory: I agree the results should get posted
[2014/08/17 10:56:59] Pat (patroklus.murakami): i don't think a forum discussion can be avoided. if people post nonsense well, that's their business
[2014/08/17 10:57:14] Rosie Gray: yes I suppose you are right about that Pat
[2014/08/17 10:57:42] Widget Whiteberry: the forums are very helpful for getting a fuller picture of who people are and how they think
[2014/08/17 10:57:54] Rosie Gray: so we are agreed to remove the names of people, and post the survey results on the forum
[2014/08/17 10:58:09] Pat (patroklus.murakami): and the time and date of their comments
[2014/08/17 10:58:29] Pat (patroklus.murakami): (as that identifies them)
[2014/08/17 10:58:52] Rosie Gray: just removing the names is enough, because there is no reference then
[2014/08/17 10:58:54] Lilith Ivory: I agree
[2014/08/17 10:59:00] Pat (patroklus.murakami): no rosie
[2014/08/17 10:59:20] Pat (patroklus.murakami): if you leave the times in ppl can infer who made waht commetn by matching them across qns
[2014/08/17 10:59:27] Rosie Gray: well... what I mean is removing question 1
[2014/08/17 10:59:28] Pat (patroklus.murakami): they are no longer anonymous that way
[2014/08/17 10:59:33] Pat (patroklus.murakami): no
[2014/08/17 10:59:59] Pat (patroklus.murakami): if i cross refernce qn 3 and qn 4 (or whatever) i can identify who made what comment

Re: Commission Meeting Transcript August 17, 2014

Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:05 pm
by Rosie Gray
[2014/08/17 11:00:02] Rosie Gray: I cannot remove the timestamps without removing the entire question
[2014/08/17 11:00:03] Pat (patroklus.murakami): or at least infer
[2014/08/17 11:00:04] Widget Whiteberry: Pat are you thinking of the comments?
[2014/08/17 11:00:21] Pat (patroklus.murakami): i'm thinkin of the comments
[2014/08/17 11:00:25] Rosie Gray: no... I'm saying I'll remove the names, so there will be nothing to cross reference against
[2014/08/17 11:01:01] Pat (patroklus.murakami): read qn 9 comment 2
[2014/08/17 11:01:24] Pat (patroklus.murakami): if i see that name i can then work out his other responses where there is a time stamp
[2014/08/17 11:01:34] Rosie Gray /me shrugs
[2014/08/17 11:01:47] Rosie Gray: I dont' think that is relevant
[2014/08/17 11:01:56] Widget Whiteberry: how about using screen shots?
[2014/08/17 11:02:07] Widget Whiteberry: with no time/date stamps
[2014/08/17 11:02:13] Widget Whiteberry: is that sufficient?
[2014/08/17 11:02:17] Pat (patroklus.murakami): what is difficult about removing the date/time stamps for the comments?
[2014/08/17 11:02:22] Rosie Gray: does it really matter that much? that seems silly to me
[2014/08/17 11:02:36] Rosie Gray: well I could do it, I guess
[2014/08/17 11:02:40] Rosie Gray: more work is all
[2014/08/17 11:02:44] Widget Whiteberry: Rosie, it will become a red herring (distraction)
[2014/08/17 11:02:51] Pat (patroklus.murakami): ppl gave their views in the expectation they would be anonymous
[2014/08/17 11:02:56] Widget Whiteberry: use screen shots w/o time/date
[2014/08/17 11:03:01] Rosie Gray: the last time we did a survey like this, we published everyones names
[2014/08/17 11:03:02] Pat (patroklus.murakami): we should do all we can to preserve that
[2014/08/17 11:03:07] Rosie Gray: and there was no issue at all about it
[2014/08/17 11:03:26] Lilith Ivory: ... and I hated it everybody could see it was me who made a silly comment lol
[2014/08/17 11:03:26] Pat (patroklus.murakami): did you identify which views they held?
[2014/08/17 11:03:40] Rosie Gray: it was a similar survey
[2014/08/17 11:04:05] Lilith Ivory: I do remember this survey and that I was not happy anybody could figure out what I was saying :)
[2014/08/17 11:04:12] Rosie Gray: but anyway, let's not get distracted.. if everyone thinks it's that important, I'll remove the timestamps too
[2014/08/17 11:04:19] Pat (patroklus.murakami): that is my point lilith. ty :)
[2014/08/17 11:04:37] Pat (patroklus.murakami): and ty rosie
[2014/08/17 11:04:38] Rosie Gray: okay... well nobody said anything about it then ㋡
[2014/08/17 11:04:47] Leslie Allandale: May I add something
[2014/08/17 11:04:52] Rosie Gray: sure
[2014/08/17 11:05:00] Lilith Ivory: wasn´t THIS important for me as I am not a very sensitive person :)
[2014/08/17 11:05:12] Pat (patroklus.murakami) /me is trying to avoid a future drama-fest if possible :)
[2014/08/17 11:05:24] Widget Whiteberry /me nods
[2014/08/17 11:05:24] Rosie Gray: ㋡
[2014/08/17 11:05:34] Leslie Allandale: There are two issues here. One is that we as members have information to use in our investigation of the issue
[2014/08/17 11:05:53] Leslie Allandale: We know the names, if that helps us
[2014/08/17 11:06:12] Leslie Allandale: The second is publishing the results in the spirit of openess
[2014/08/17 11:06:47] Leslie Allandale: It is not important how complete the matter is that we publish
[2014/08/17 11:06:55] Leslie Allandale: So Pat is right
[2014/08/17 11:07:24] Leslie Allandale: we should err on the side of keeping the peace.
[2014/08/17 11:07:39] Leslie Allandale: done
[2014/08/17 11:08:17] Rosie Gray: okay, so now that's decided
[2014/08/17 11:08:33] Rosie Gray: we can all take more time to study the survey results too
[2014/08/17 11:08:56] Rosie Gray: the next question is about our inworld meetings
[2014/08/17 11:09:32] Rosie Gray: any ideas about what you'd like?
[2014/08/17 11:09:32] Pat (patroklus.murakami): brb
[2014/08/17 11:10:06] Lilith Ivory: I can host some anyway but would like to have a somehow fixed aganda
[2014/08/17 11:10:16] Rosie Gray /me nods
[2014/08/17 11:10:43] Rosie Gray: I think that's a good idea Lil, so that when we compile notes we have a way to cross reference
[2014/08/17 11:10:54] Lilith Ivory: exactly
[2014/08/17 11:11:01] Widget Whiteberry: a fixed agenda and some standard questions
[2014/08/17 11:11:06] Rosie Gray /me nods
[2014/08/17 11:11:20] Rosie Gray: should we use the survey questions, plus the additional question?
[2014/08/17 11:11:40] Widget Whiteberry: no, not the survey questions, we've already asked those
[2014/08/17 11:11:50] Widget Whiteberry: but this is an opportunity to clarify
[2014/08/17 11:11:54] Widget Whiteberry: like
[2014/08/17 11:12:07] Widget Whiteberry: something about preferring parcels that abut water
[2014/08/17 11:12:17] Rosie Gray /me nods
[2014/08/17 11:12:27] Rosie Gray: and more about the theme, perhaps
[2014/08/17 11:12:43] Widget Whiteberry: like what, Rosie?
[2014/08/17 11:12:43] Rosie Gray: people seem to be all over the place with regards to theme
[2014/08/17 11:12:53] Lilith Ivory: did you see Q5 ?
[2014/08/17 11:13:05] Lilith Ivory: zhere people prefer forests instad of beaches :)
[2014/08/17 11:13:14] Widget Whiteberry: Bavarian & Alpine theme most popular
[2014/08/17 11:13:46] Rosie Gray: they are, where we provided the question, but in the comments there's lots of other ideas too
[2014/08/17 11:14:04] Widget Whiteberry: well yes, but... what's possible?
[2014/08/17 11:14:18] Rosie Gray: maybe beaches wasn't quite the right word
[2014/08/17 11:14:28] Rosie Gray: perhaps waterfront would have been more accurate
[2014/08/17 11:14:44] Rosie Gray: when I think of beaches, it makes me think of tourist places for suntanning
[2014/08/17 11:15:00] Lilith Ivory: I think in alpine themed Sims it´s more about the view than about water
[2014/08/17 11:15:01] Rosie Gray: but waterfront can be mostly for nature, or beach
[2014/08/17 11:15:10] Widget Whiteberry: hhmmm if we plan a series of meettings for next weekend, that would give us time to formulate questions... and we probably want one weekday/ve meeting too
[2014/08/17 11:15:40] Widget Whiteberry: Rosie, Delia commented to me that she loves her view of the water
[2014/08/17 11:15:44] Rosie Gray: each of us said we would host at least one meeting
[2014/08/17 11:16:05] Widget Whiteberry: and there are 4 of you on the commission?
[2014/08/17 11:16:05] Rosie Gray: oh yes! but it's not sim water
[2014/08/17 11:16:13] Rosie Gray: yes
[2014/08/17 11:16:19] Rosie Gray: noi
[2014/08/17 11:16:21] Rosie Gray: 5
[2014/08/17 11:16:24] Rosie Gray: Bromo too
[2014/08/17 11:16:37] Rosie Gray: and I keep forgetting to count myself :(
[2014/08/17 11:16:45] Lilith Ivory /me grins
[2014/08/17 11:16:54] Leslie Allandale: I agreed to attend all and keep minutes.
[2014/08/17 11:17:08] Rosie Gray: that's a big committment!
[2014/08/17 11:17:11] Pat (patroklus.murakami): back
[2014/08/17 11:17:15] Lilith Ivory: wb
[2014/08/17 11:17:15] Pat (patroklus.murakami): reading up
[2014/08/17 11:18:07] Leslie Allandale: There are 4 meetings, then. I will compile the minutes and back up the host.
[2014/08/17 11:18:19] Rosie Gray: how about we create a google doc and collaborate on what the meeting questions should be there?
[2014/08/17 11:18:22] Rosie Gray: might be easier
[2014/08/17 11:18:32] Lilith Ivory: sounds like a good idea
[2014/08/17 11:18:47] Pat (patroklus.murakami): mine will be a little different as the focus is on legislation
[2014/08/17 11:18:51] Rosie Gray: does someone want to start it, and invite the rest of us?
[2014/08/17 11:18:56] Pat (patroklus.murakami): so i doubt the questions will be similar
[2014/08/17 11:19:11] Rosie Gray: how do you mean, Pat?
[2014/08/17 11:19:21] Pat (patroklus.murakami): more a 'how to' than a 'what shoudl do' meeting
[2014/08/17 11:19:40] Pat (patroklus.murakami): well, i see the legislation as a means to an end
[2014/08/17 11:20:00] Pat (patroklus.murakami): it's just 'how do we put the citizens wishes into practice'
[2014/08/17 11:20:07] Rosie Gray: hmmm
[2014/08/17 11:20:14] Pat (patroklus.murakami): rather than a discussion of theme for example
[2014/08/17 11:20:17] Rosie Gray: right now though, our focus is gathering the information
[2014/08/17 11:20:30] Rosie Gray: I think that is jumping ahead to the next step
[2014/08/17 11:20:44] Pat (patroklus.murakami): my aim was to gather information
[2014/08/17 11:20:53] Pat (patroklus.murakami): but on 'how' people want this implemented
[2014/08/17 11:21:11] Leslie Allandale: Would they care?
[2014/08/17 11:21:26] Rosie Gray: I don't understand what you mean by 'how'
[2014/08/17 11:21:29] Widget Whiteberry: Pat, 'how' sounds like the basis for some useful questions to ask at all meetings
[2014/08/17 11:21:33] Pat (patroklus.murakami): e.g. are people happy for the chancellor or RA to take all the decisions? or do they want the kind of involvement gwyn's bill is about
[2014/08/17 11:21:51] Rosie Gray: that is a whole other issue
[2014/08/17 11:22:31] Pat (patroklus.murakami): well rosie we have at least four laws i can think of which could be used to add a new sim :) they're alll different in how they involve citizens and the institutions. which one do people want? or do they want something else? :-)
[2014/08/17 11:22:37] Leslie Allandale: Is it within the purview of this commission.
[2014/08/17 11:22:42] Widget Whiteberry: everything is connected ... we should have Bhuddist talks ....
[2014/08/17 11:22:53] Pat (patroklus.murakami): lol @ widget
[2014/08/17 11:22:56] Lilith Ivory: shouldn´t we first think about WHAT peolle want and next how they want it to get done?
[2014/08/17 11:23:04] Pat (patroklus.murakami): or maybe quaker style meetings?
[2014/08/17 11:23:14] Widget Whiteberry: Pat how about forumlating the questions and then we can decide which to ask and how
[2014/08/17 11:23:19] Pat (patroklus.murakami): sure lilith, if ppl want to sequence it that way
[2014/08/17 11:23:36] Rosie Gray: our job is to recommend legislation for the purchase of the sim and how to manage that
[2014/08/17 11:23:52] Pat (patroklus.murakami): good idea widget, i'll give it some thought first. always difficult to do this in the abstract
[2014/08/17 11:23:53] Rosie Gray: I agree with what Lilith said
[2014/08/17 11:24:11] Widget Whiteberry: do we have a timeframe?
[2014/08/17 11:24:17] Rosie Gray: but I do think that if there are questions related, then we should all ask them in our meetings
[2014/08/17 11:24:27] Lilith Ivory: I agree
[2014/08/17 11:24:29] Leslie Allandale: agreed
[2014/08/17 11:24:32] Rosie Gray: I don't think you should have a different type of meeting than the rest of us
[2014/08/17 11:24:32] Widget Whiteberry /me nods
[2014/08/17 11:24:51] Lilith Ivory /me nods
[2014/08/17 11:25:02] Leslie Allandale: Everyone who attends meetings should expect that same content
[2014/08/17 11:25:10] Rosie Gray /me nods
[2014/08/17 11:25:11] Leslie Allandale: or they would have to attend more.
[2014/08/17 11:25:17] Pat (patroklus.murakami): i thought i'd been asked to do a meeting on legislation? are all the meetings supposed to be the same?
[2014/08/17 11:25:27] Rosie Gray: yes
[2014/08/17 11:25:40] Rosie Gray: so that we can compile the information
[2014/08/17 11:25:49] Pat (patroklus.murakami): we don't need five meetings then!
[2014/08/17 11:25:55] Leslie Allandale: That was implied Pat, but I agree that they should be much the same
[2014/08/17 11:26:02] Leslie Allandale: 4
[2014/08/17 11:26:07] Widget Whiteberry: 4 pat, becuse of time zones and work schedules, etc
[2014/08/17 11:26:15] Rosie Gray: sure we do, just to ensure that everyone has a chance to participate
[2014/08/17 11:26:32] Leslie Allandale: and they can be smaller
[2014/08/17 11:26:35] Rosie Gray: if nobody shows up to one of them, well there you go
[2014/08/17 11:26:56] Widget Whiteberry: oh that reminds me. Please, no ending meetings early
[2014/08/17 11:26:58] Leslie Allandale: or if everybody shows up for all, there you go
[2014/08/17 11:27:00] Rosie Gray: yes I agree on that Les, smaller gives a better chance for everyone to have a say
[2014/08/17 11:27:13] Leslie Allandale: exactly
[2014/08/17 11:27:22] Rosie Gray: but as you say... can't predict
[2014/08/17 11:27:35] Widget Whiteberry: some people will arrive late, no matter when they begin
[2014/08/17 11:28:48] Rosie Gray: so anyway, about the meeting questions
[2014/08/17 11:29:02] Widget Whiteberry: google doc?
[2014/08/17 11:29:05] Rosie Gray: does someone want to start the document and draft some questions?
[2014/08/17 11:29:17] Rosie Gray: yes, Widget
[2014/08/17 11:29:29] Leslie Allandale: I would need to peruse the survey first
[2014/08/17 11:29:29] Widget Whiteberry /me looks at Pat ...
[2014/08/17 11:29:43] Rosie Gray: and we can all give our input
[2014/08/17 11:29:43] Pat (patroklus.murakami): i misunderstood the purpose of the meetings. i thought we were all going to host one on our bit of the puzzle. if they are all to be the same i'll draft questions on legislation to be covered at each one
[2014/08/17 11:29:59] Rosie Gray: okay that sounds good
[2014/08/17 11:30:30] Rosie Gray: Les, do you want to draft up questions based on the survey?
[2014/08/17 11:30:33] Leslie Allandale: great
[2014/08/17 11:30:48] Leslie Allandale: I will do that.
[2014/08/17 11:30:56] Rosie Gray: good ㋡
[2014/08/17 11:31:08] Rosie Gray: who will start the documentl... Pat or Les?
[2014/08/17 11:31:16] Rosie Gray: and invite all of us to participate?
[2014/08/17 11:31:18] Pat (patroklus.murakami): les :)
[2014/08/17 11:31:26] Rosie Gray: and Bromo too
[2014/08/17 11:31:31] Widget Whiteberry: May I participate?
[2014/08/17 11:31:43] Rosie Gray: yes ㋡
[2014/08/17 11:31:45] Leslie Allandale: Oh boy.. thanks for the vote.
[2014/08/17 11:31:59] Rosie Gray: you are our surveying consultant ;)
[2014/08/17 11:32:15] Widget Whiteberry: ☆smiles☆
[2014/08/17 11:32:47] Leslie Allandale: I think comments to the survey should give us a good start to the content of the meetings.
[2014/08/17 11:32:52] Widget Whiteberry: oh and meetinging timing? how do we figure that out
[2014/08/17 11:33:00] Rosie Gray: great! so that piece is settled
[2014/08/17 11:33:04] Widget Whiteberry: nods
[2014/08/17 11:33:13] Rosie Gray: let's have a deadline for completeing the questions
[2014/08/17 11:33:22] Rosie Gray: so that we can get to the meetings next week
[2014/08/17 11:33:54] Rosie Gray: can we aim for finalizing on Monday?
[2014/08/17 11:34:18] Pat (patroklus.murakami): tomorrow? i might need a day or two longer
[2014/08/17 11:34:20] Widget Whiteberry: tomorrow?
[2014/08/17 11:34:26] Leslie Allandale: Can Rosie post a time slot survey like she did for our first meeting?
[2014/08/17 11:34:38] Lilith Ivory: monday is only a few hours away from us europeans :)
[2014/08/17 11:34:51] Rosie Gray: so it is Lil
[2014/08/17 11:34:52] Rosie Gray: lol
[2014/08/17 11:35:03] Rosie Gray: you mean a Doodle for meetings?
[2014/08/17 11:35:15] Leslie Allandale: The Meeting leaders could propose the best times for them n Doodle. yes
[2014/08/17 11:35:28] Widget Whiteberry /me sees Monday barrelling down the road to her in Calif
[2014/08/17 11:35:49] Lilith Ivory /me laughs
[2014/08/17 11:36:02] Leslie Allandale: I can work on it, if someone does todays minutes, lol.
[2014/08/17 11:36:24] Rosie Gray: I can do todays minutes
[2014/08/17 11:36:48] Leslie Allandale: I am working on another draft, as well.
[2014/08/17 11:36:51] Leslie Allandale: ty rosie.
[2014/08/17 11:37:01] Rosie Gray: well, the Doodle is good for setting 1 meeting time
[2014/08/17 11:37:19] Rosie Gray: not really good for suggesting multiple times... but I think we all just pick the times that work for us
[2014/08/17 11:37:26] Leslie Allandale: You can look at the results and decide what times to pick for each
[2014/08/17 11:37:40] Lilith Ivory: I agree Rosie
[2014/08/17 11:37:51] Rosie Gray: hmmm... no that's not really how it functions
[2014/08/17 11:37:59] Widget Whiteberry: how about posting the time/day for your meeting in the google doc
[2014/08/17 11:38:01] Leslie Allandale: Just use its chart
[2014/08/17 11:38:04] Pat (patroklus.murakami): perhaps we could just put our preferred times on a google doc? we need to set it for a time that suits us and then check we have a range of times and dates needed. not sure we need doodle as we all don't need to be there
[2014/08/17 11:38:16] Pat (patroklus.murakami): widget beat me to it!
[2014/08/17 11:38:21] Widget Whiteberry: snap!
[2014/08/17 11:38:23] Leslie Allandale: fine
[2014/08/17 11:38:25] Rosie Gray: yes that makes sense Pat
[2014/08/17 11:39:00] Rosie Gray: ㋡
[2014/08/17 11:39:05] Rosie Gray: right
[2014/08/17 11:39:09] Rosie Gray: so our last question
[2014/08/17 11:39:13] Rosie Gray: is Bromo's question
[2014/08/17 11:39:27] Rosie Gray: should these meetings be open to anyone who wants to come and listen?
[2014/08/17 11:39:48] Rosie Gray: personally, I think he misunderstands what our committee meetings are for
[2014/08/17 11:39:54] Leslie Allandale: Has anyone besides Widget asked?
[2014/08/17 11:40:12] Lilith Ivory: Widget is our advisor :)
[2014/08/17 11:40:13] Widget Whiteberry: I'm special
[2014/08/17 11:40:14] Pat (patroklus.murakami): we aim to get public input via the open meetings
[2014/08/17 11:40:21] Widget Whiteberry: and forums
[2014/08/17 11:40:24] Rosie Gray: we have advisors for specific things
[2014/08/17 11:40:28] Pat (patroklus.murakami): i think having a core group that works on this makes sense
[2014/08/17 11:40:34] Lilith Ivory: and we can decide afterwards if we want to give open meetings a try
[2014/08/17 11:40:48] Leslie Allandale: If someone wants to attend, we can address that when it arises.
[2014/08/17 11:40:52] Widget Whiteberry: will the minutes be published?
[2014/08/17 11:41:00] Pat (patroklus.murakami): if you have an open meeting every time you have to go back to the start, or at least catch everyone up, every time
[2014/08/17 11:41:02] Rosie Gray: yes, the minutes are published
[2014/08/17 11:41:02] Leslie Allandale: Yes
[2014/08/17 11:41:05] Rosie Gray: and the transcript
[2014/08/17 11:41:11] Rosie Gray: there is nothing 'secret'
[2014/08/17 11:41:15] Widget Whiteberry: may I comment?
[2014/08/17 11:41:20] Rosie Gray: of course Widget
[2014/08/17 11:41:27] Widget Whiteberry: uh oh, the transcript?
[2014/08/17 11:41:31] Widget Whiteberry: sigh
[2014/08/17 11:41:32] Widget Whiteberry: ok
[2014/08/17 11:41:36] Lilith Ivory: IF we had open meetings it had to work like RA and SC meetings where the public was allowed to listen but not always allowed to talk
[2014/08/17 11:41:50] Widget Whiteberry: my thought is that this is a working group and as such
[2014/08/17 11:42:05] Widget Whiteberry: it's important that you all have open and frank conversation
[2014/08/17 11:42:35] Rosie Gray: agreed
[2014/08/17 11:42:36] Widget Whiteberry: allowing people to drop in invites comments in public that may distract
[2014/08/17 11:42:40] Widget Whiteberry: and eat time
[2014/08/17 11:42:45] Lilith Ivory: I agree
[2014/08/17 11:43:11] Rosie Gray /me nods
[2014/08/17 11:43:11] Leslie Allandale: So what is the difference if the are here to listen or read the transcript later?
[2014/08/17 11:43:22] Widget Whiteberry: so I would keep these meetings among the 5 of you, except when you invite someone
[2014/08/17 11:43:28] Pat (patroklus.murakami): i think this works better and we will have open meetings for everyone to attend. i'm not in favour of bromo's proposal
[2014/08/17 11:43:28] Rosie Gray: I don't think there is any difference, Les
[2014/08/17 11:43:34] Widget Whiteberry: to attend and I would NOT publish the transcript
[2014/08/17 11:43:45] Pat (patroklus.murakami): oh no i disagree widget
[2014/08/17 11:43:55] Widget Whiteberry /me listens
[2014/08/17 11:44:08] Pat (patroklus.murakami): if you don't publish a transcript people get their knickers in a twist about secret meetings
[2014/08/17 11:44:16] Pat (patroklus.murakami): it becomes a problem in itself
[2014/08/17 11:44:24] Rosie Gray: yes, sadly that is the case
[2014/08/17 11:44:28] Lilith Ivory: sadly I have to agree with Pat
[2014/08/17 11:44:30] Pat (patroklus.murakami): just put it out there and try to avoid defamation in the meeting LOL!
[2014/08/17 11:44:46] Leslie Allandale: rolls eyes
[2014/08/17 11:44:50] Rosie Gray: I have to agree Pat
[2014/08/17 11:44:51] Widget Whiteberry: ah, I see, thank you
[2014/08/17 11:45:10] Widget Whiteberry: Can you tell I'm new at this
[2014/08/17 11:45:14] Widget Whiteberry: ?
[2014/08/17 11:45:19] Rosie Gray: so, let's take a vote, from the commission members
[2014/08/17 11:45:20] Lilith Ivory /me smiles
[2014/08/17 11:45:20] Pat (patroklus.murakami) /me smiles
[2014/08/17 11:45:42] Rosie Gray: Those in favour of opening the meetings to anyone, vote aye
[2014/08/17 11:45:52] Widget Whiteberry: any citizen?
[2014/08/17 11:45:55] Rosie Gray: and those not in favour of opening the meetings to anyone, vote nay
[2014/08/17 11:46:00] Pat (patroklus.murakami): nay
[2014/08/17 11:46:02] Lilith Ivory: nay
[2014/08/17 11:46:04] Rosie Gray: yes, any citizen
[2014/08/17 11:46:07] Rosie Gray: nay
[2014/08/17 11:46:19] Rosie Gray: and on behalf of Bromo... he would vote aye
[2014/08/17 11:46:26] Lilith Ivory: Les?
[2014/08/17 11:46:47] Leslie Allandale: nay
[2014/08/17 11:46:56] Rosie Gray: okay, so the question fails
[2014/08/17 11:47:14] Rosie Gray: but to Bromo and those reading the transcript
[2014/08/17 11:47:38] Rosie Gray: please note it is because we don't want distraactions, and need to focus
[2014/08/17 11:47:56] Rosie Gray: not because there is anything secret going on
[2014/08/17 11:48:10] Rosie Gray: and this is a working group
[2014/08/17 11:48:16] Rosie Gray: anyone want to add anything to that?
[2014/08/17 11:48:36] Lilith Ivory: not from my side :)
[2014/08/17 11:48:43] Leslie Allandale: no, you said it well
[2014/08/17 11:48:54] Rosie Gray: ㋡
[2014/08/17 11:48:54] Pat (patroklus.murakami): just that we want to have wider input but it needs to be structured via the forums and inworld meetings
[2014/08/17 11:49:02] Rosie Gray: yes!
[2014/08/17 11:49:07] Widget Whiteberry /me nods
[2014/08/17 11:49:14] Rosie Gray: and that's what we are here to figure out how to do ㋡
[2014/08/17 11:49:46] Rosie Gray: anything else for this meeting?
[2014/08/17 11:49:48] Pat (patroklus.murakami): so, DONM and then adjourn?
[2014/08/17 11:50:04] Rosie Gray: DONM?
[2014/08/17 11:50:11] Pat (patroklus.murakami): date of next meeting. sorry!
[2014/08/17 11:50:12] Leslie Allandale: I move
[2014/08/17 11:50:16] Lilith Ivory: lol
[2014/08/17 11:50:26] Leslie Allandale: Not monday
[2014/08/17 11:50:40] Pat (patroklus.murakami): clearly not a universal acronym :)
[2014/08/17 11:50:52] Lilith Ivory: there might be a SC meeting sometimes next weekend
[2014/08/17 11:51:05] Widget Whiteberry: good acronym, though
[2014/08/17 11:51:11] Rosie Gray: I am unavailable all next weekend
[2014/08/17 11:51:46] Leslie Allandale: When will we have questions an proposed meeting dates?
[2014/08/17 11:51:52] Lilith Ivory: during the week I am rather felxible
[2014/08/17 11:52:02] Pat (patroklus.murakami): hmmm. what do we need to meet for next? might tell us when woiudl be a good time
[2014/08/17 11:52:18] Leslie Allandale: How about Thursday?
[2014/08/17 11:52:29] Lilith Ivory: good question Pat :)
[2014/08/17 11:52:29] Rosie Gray: I think our next meeting should be after our individual open-meetings
[2014/08/17 11:52:52] Rosie Gray: so first we get our questions, and meeting times on the doc settled
[2014/08/17 11:53:01] Rosie Gray: have our meetings
[2014/08/17 11:53:01] Lilith Ivory: so we need the questions done and hold those meetings first
[2014/08/17 11:53:22] Rosie Gray: then come back together to look at how they went and compile the information
[2014/08/17 11:53:37] Widget Whiteberry: where will they be? Do we need a standard set up?
[2014/08/17 11:53:43] Pat (patroklus.murakami): so hold our meetings next week or w/c 25 August?
[2014/08/17 11:53:55] Widget Whiteberry: CN amphitheater?
[2014/08/17 11:53:57] Leslie Allandale: So doodle meeting time after last meeting?
[2014/08/17 11:54:07] Rosie Gray: not a good place for the meetings with the circus there
[2014/08/17 11:54:15] Widget Whiteberry: we might want slides
[2014/08/17 11:54:16] Rosie Gray: could meet in the Schloss
[2014/08/17 11:54:26] Leslie Allandale: We can use my pavillion across from the corcus
[2014/08/17 11:54:28] Lilith Ivory: slides?
[2014/08/17 11:54:35] Leslie Allandale: circus
[2014/08/17 11:54:37] Rosie Gray: should be a public space, I think
[2014/08/17 11:54:47] Leslie Allandale: kk.
[2014/08/17 11:54:48] Lilith Ivory: the schloss is fine for me
[2014/08/17 11:54:51] Widget Whiteberry: images of things .... questions, perhaps
[2014/08/17 11:55:10] Rosie Gray: we can refine this in the google doc
[2014/08/17 11:55:29] Widget Whiteberry: Isn't Circus over tomorrow?
[2014/08/17 11:55:35] Rosie Gray: I've no idea
[2014/08/17 11:55:43] Pat (patroklus.murakami): perhaps we can set the date etc via the google doc, doodle or email once we have our qns and have set up the meetings? might be easier than trying to do it now
[2014/08/17 11:55:46] Lilith Ivory: there is one event at the 18th I think
[2014/08/17 11:55:53] Widget Whiteberry: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5357#p31043
[2014/08/17 11:55:56] Rosie Gray: I agree Pat
[2014/08/17 11:56:08] Leslie Allandale: agreed, Pat
[2014/08/17 11:56:18] Lilith Ivory: I agree
[2014/08/17 11:56:32] Pat (patroklus.murakami): i move we adjourn then :)
[2014/08/17 11:56:35] Rosie Gray: okay good ㋡
[2014/08/17 11:56:41] Leslie Allandale: 2nd
[2014/08/17 11:56:49] Rosie Gray: all in favour?
[2014/08/17 11:56:53] Leslie Allandale: aye
[2014/08/17 11:56:54] Pat (patroklus.murakami): aye
[2014/08/17 11:56:54] Lilith Ivory: aye
[2014/08/17 11:56:55] Rosie Gray: aye