Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

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Nikki
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Re: Further legislation, possible Constitutional Amendment

Post by Nikki »

Sonja Strom wrote:

I carefully compared this proposed Amendment with the CDS/AA agreement, and there is only one part of the text I find incongruous with the agreements made between the CDS and AA. It is in the third sentence in Section 5 above, which says: "The RA may by simple majority vote, and posted notice of that vote to citizens in both communities, choose to separate the new community from the CDS." The CDS/AA agreement is different here, in the CDS merger offer at 8.b saying: "The CDS RA may by a 2/3rds majority vote, and posted notice of that vote to AA and CDS citizens, elect to re-separate the six AA sims from CDS, as a separate estate."

Why do you want to have agreements based on this amendment be able to be ended by a simple-majority vote in the RA instead of by a 2/3rds-majority vote (as is in the agreement with Al Andalus)?

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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Sudane Erato »

Nikki is the same person as Sonja, right?

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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Sonja Strom »

Different avi, same RL person, yes. Got your attention, didn't it? :wink:

Will again ask the same question:
Why do you want to have agreements based on this amendment be able to be ended by a simple-majority vote in the RA instead of by a 2/3rds-majority vote (as is in the agreement with Al Andalus)?

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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Timo Gufler »

It would be interesting to know the background of the difference Sonja pointed out. Is the AA merger considered somehow less risky than a merger with some other community?

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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Jamie Palisades »

Apologies for the length here; there is a specific suggestion for amending the proposed bill, at the end of this post.

With gratitude to the legislators who have been writing many bills here, I note that the Patroklus/Sonja versions, most recently at http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 453#p13369, are somewhat longer and different than I suggested, originally here: considerably more detailed and controlling than what I suggested at http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 453#p13361.

With all due respect to Claude's post, we see things differently in this case.
-- He has focused on whether a constitutional amendment is required. While we might not agree on that question, that's not really a concern here: everyone IS proposing that we do one, to be safe from any attacks on that front.
-- There's some issue about the best way to do constitutional amendments. Yes, and there's a right and wrong way -- but it's kind of academic and dry, and not at all the real problem here, either.
-- The real problem is whether the planned constitutional amendment CHANGES the deal the RA already made.

Let me be clear what's at stake. This isn't one of those academic competitions in drafting acumen. It's a real deal, with defined terms and with real people:
a. We made a offer with specific terms. (See: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2445 and http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 448#p13338)
b. It was accepted, on those terms. (See: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 448#p13345)
c. If we CHANGE the terms, we risk the acceptance being WITHDRAWN.
So I'd strongly encourage the RA to rein in any desires to do that. Unfortunately, Patroklus's draft did so and Sonja has kept those changes. .

Here's my advice to the RA. First summary, then detail.

Summary: if you want to do the deal, then respect the legislation already passed and accepted by AA, and write a constitutional amendment that does not CHANGE it.

Detail: Looking at Sonja's draft section by section:

* Her Sections 1 & Section 2 reach pretty much the same results as my original Section 1, defining a merger, listing what items need to be covered in a merger agreement, and how it actually happens.
* Her Sections 3 and 4 are SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT than the deal approved by the RA. This is about how the RA is augmented by the new incoming citizens. See below.
* Her Section 5 is a specific treatment of the one-year revocation right ... which my original version simply amended the constitution to permit, not mandate and define in detail. I do not see why Pat and Sonja want to spell out so much detail in the constitution .. nor why every deal would want a revocation right. Most legislative experts consider a *constitution* as simpler enabling document, and leave details of implementation to *legislation*. But that's only an issue of wise drafting, not a show-stopper, in my view.

ELECTORAL REPRESENTATION. Here's the part where Pat started (in his first draft) to change the deal, undoubtedly with the best intentions, but which still might kill it. Compare these three:

1. THE ADOPTED BILL SAYS: (http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2445)

The CDS RA will be increased by a number equal to the higher of
* (a) two, or
* (b) the number of additional members that would be added to the RA under CDS law by reason of the additional number of citizens added under Para 1 above.
In calculating that number, (a) each new CDS citizen from AA will be counted, plus (b) any "converting dual citizens." A "converting dual citizen" is a current CDS citizen who wishes to designate AA's sims as their primary residence within CDS; who does so by informing the CDS chancellor in writing within a reasonably set deadline; and who does not currently serve on the CDS RA.
The additional vacant RA positions will be filled by a process designated by AA management, consistent with AA law, from among persons who are (a) new CDS citizens from AA will be counted and (b) any "converting dual citizens." The newly selected RA members shall serve either (a)] the remainder of the current RA term [or (b), if they are selected less than one month prior to the closing date for RA candidacy in the next RA general election, for the remainder of the current term plus the next term.

JAMIE's DRAFT SAID:

In the merger agreement, the RA may provide for a reasonable transition plan for representation of additional citizens added by reason of the merger. At the RA's discretion, that plan may provide for (a) the special election or selection of additional RA representatives from the newly joining estate, by that estate, using its own pre-existing laws and methods for the selection of governmental representatives, separate from the regular CDS election; (b) a full term or shorter or longer transition term for those representatives; and (c) reasonable methods for estimating the number of RA members to be added, consistent with this Constitution's provisions for the size of the CDS RA. However, any such special transition terms, estimates or representatives must revert to standard CDS election procedures, in all respects, no later than 9 months after the merger is completed.

The latest SONJA/PATROKLUS DRAFT SAID:

Section 3. Transitional Representation
If the agreement to merge takes place 30 days or more before the deadline for declaring candidates in the next scheduled RA election, the CDS RA elections will proceed as usual, taking into account the addition to the census. In the interim, the RA will be augmented by a number of representatives (equal to the number of Interim Added Seats) elected by the [sims] joining using [their] own democratic methods.
[If the agreement to merge takes place less than 30 days before the deadline for declaring candidates in the next scheduled RA election, the representatives elected by the new sims to fill Interim Added Seats in the RA will remain in place for the remainder of the current term plus the next term. In this case, as the sims joining the CDS will already have representation in place all aspects of the next general election shall apply only to those sims in the CDS at the time the agreement was accepted.]
[In both cases] these temporary seats last until the first RA term in which the new citizens participate in the [CDS] election.
Section 4. Interim Added Seats
The [Scientific Council] shall determine the number of added representatives to the RA - the Interim Added Seats - on the basis of the number of residents who will be joining as new citizens and the formula in the CDS Constitution.

DIFFERENCES. Overlooking the huge stylistic differences, you can see three substantive differences there right away. And so can Al-Andalus:

1. The 2-RA-members minimum in the approved merger agreements was eliminated. (Or left out, so that it could be argued that it's unconstitutional to honor it.)
2. The 'converting dual citizens' deal is gone. In other words, AA loses the right to have an initial number of RA members that takes into account those dual citizens who would choose to be counted in the AA electorate, not the old CDS electorate, during the interim. Instead, Pat's Section 4, which Sonja kept, simply lets the SC choose how many RA reps AA gets, on the basis of its take on new additions alone.
3. Pat's section 3, which Sonja kept, adds the word 'democratic' as a requirement to how AA picks its transitional reps -- thus giving someone in old CDS the right to have the CDS SC undo the AA choices completely, if they feel it's not "democratic" enough.

If this is a merger of equals, or anything like that is expected, then I'm concerned that these unsolicited changes would be insulting and potential showstoppers for AA.

Again, I suggest that the right way to do this deal, and the right way legislate responsibly, is to amend the constitution to permit reasonable merger arrangements such as the RA may approve -- NOT to dictate the exact shape of them in a constitution, and NOT to change the already-approved and already-accepted deal. That's what I suggested the first time, see above.

If there's no way to derail the current more bloated form of the enabling legislation, I suggest the RA at least consider these substitute sections, which give AA a chance to have the benefit of their original deal:

{proposed changes to http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 453#p13369]
Suggested changes from Sonja's latest draft shown in [brackets]

Section 3. Transitional Representation
If the agreement to merge takes place 30 days or more before the deadline for declaring candidates in the next scheduled RA election, the CDS RA elections will proceed as usual, taking into account the addition to the census. In the interim, the RA will be augmented by a number of representatives equal to the number of Interim Added Seats elected by the sims joining[,] using their [own existing methods for selecting government representatives].
If the agreement to merge takes place less than 30 days before the deadline for declaring candidates in the next scheduled RA election, the representatives elected by the new sims to fill Interim Added Seats in the RA will remain in place for the remainder of the current term plus the next term. In this case, as the sims joining the CDS will already have representation in place[,] all aspects of the next general election shall apply only to those sims in the CDS at the time the agreement was accepted.
In both cases these temporary seats last until the first RA term in which the new citizens participate in the CDS election.
Section 4. Interim Added Seats
The Scientific Council shall determine the number of added representatives to the RA - the Interim Added Seats - on the basis of the number of residents who will be joining as new citizens and the formula in the CDS Constitution. [In doing so, the Scientific Council: (a) shall also count as new residents any dual citizens who post public notice of their election to be counted in the new sims, by the deadline for declaring candidates in the next scheduled RA election, in which case those persons shall not cast a ballot in the next election held only in the prior CDS sims; (b) shall honor any minimum number of seats to be assigned to the new sims if set by an RA-approved merer agreement; and (c) shall deliver a determination as to the number of citizens to be added, within one week of the request of the new sims accompanied by a land ownership roster of the new sims, which shall be binding absent fraud or changed circumstances.]
.

The point of that last clause is to give an incoming merger partner an opportunity -- if they want it -- to confirm that they're going to get a fair count from CDS before closing the deal. I haven't conferred with AA on this, but that's what I would want it if was me.

Finally, I should also mention that the "30 days before" clause gives AA a strong reason to 'close the deal' on or before June 25. (The candidate deadline is 26 June, see http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 281#p13281.) Otherwise AA would have to withdraw or rethink the whole plan, as their election method would change significantly. So my guess would be we need to solve this one THIS week.

Respectfully submitted, JP

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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Point taken Jamie. I don't agree with all the terms of the agreement the AA passed but, nevertheless, it has passed.

Here's yet another alternative Proposed Constitutional Amendment :)

This is a much shorter, enabling provision which allows the Chancellor to negotiate an agreement with prospective communities wanting to merge with the CDS; the RA to have a final say over whether it goes ahead; and the SC to arbitrate any decision about the addition of seats to the RA. From Jamie's post, it would seem this latter part might be troublesome. I would just point out this is the SCs role in any case. The SC can review any aspect of any agreement with another community to merge (including the AA one).

------------------------------------------------
PROPOSED CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT

Add at end of Article I, Section 1 (The Representative Assembly): "The RA approves merger agreements with other communities."

Add at end of Article II, Section 2 (c) (Powers of The Chancellor): "and to enter into merger discussions with other communities"

Insert after first paragraph, Article III, Section 8 (Powers of the SC): "The SC approves the number of interim additional RA seats for a community joining the CDS using the formula in Article I, Section 2."

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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Jamie Palisades »

Thanks, Pat, going back and reading it to check. (Maybe when more awake :D ) We completely agree that, ultimately, anything we do as or in CDS, the SC gets to review. Talk to you on my tomorrow, cheers JP

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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Jamie Palisades »

Patroklus, thanks again; your last bill above looks nicely simple and workable in design. I still do, however, want there to be no doubt that the AA merger bill WAS and IS constitutional. And, as you pointed out, that the SC must have power to fix things if in any given case we exceed our grasp. Wouldn't it be an embarrassment to all of us if someone took a position otherwise?

So I suggest we augment your latest draft as follows [new language in brackets]:

------------------------------------------------
PROPOSED CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT

Add at end of Article I, Section 1 (The Representative Assembly): "The RA approves merger agreements with other communities. [In the merger agreement, the RA may provide for a reasonable transition plan for representation of additional citizens added by reason of the merger. At the RA's discretion, that plan may provide for (a) the special election or selection of additional RA representatives from the newly joining estate, by that estate, separate from the regular CDS election; (b) a full term or shorter or longer transition term for those representatives; and (c) reasonable methods for an initial estimate of the number of RA members to be added.]"

Add at end of Article II, Section 2 (c) (Powers of The Chancellor): "and to enter into merger discussions with other communities"

Insert after first paragraph, Article III, Section 8 (Powers of the SC): "The SC approves the number of interim additional RA seats for a community joining the CDS using the formula in Article I, Section 2 [, and may hear and adjudicate appeals of the conformance of its merger agreement with the requirements of the Constitution]. "

Regards Jamie

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Al Andalus, electoral integration (pending) (cross-post)

Post by Jamie Palisades »

FYI. the RA acted today on this matter, though further votes will be registered by absent RA members. See http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2461.
As noted there, the question of the merger probably will be resolved by 25 June.
Regards JP

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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Gwyneth Llewelyn »

As of earlier today, the RA moved to approve the amendment as proposed by Jamie on the previous message. Although there are two votes missing (Brian's and Sonja's) to validate it as a constitutional amendment (which requires a supermajority of 2/3 of all RA members), the likelihood of approval is very high.

The SC also did not veto the merger bill of last week, so that went through. The Constitutional change will not have any impact on it whatsoever, even if it fails to attract the two additional votes it requires (or that it gets veto'ed by the SC on grounds of unconstitutionality).

So the merger is now a reality. Congratulations to all that have made this possible, on the CDS and of course on AA as well!

This should appease all fears of our fellow AA members that there might be some "last moment" back-stabbing attacks that might disturb the whole process. There will be none!

However, I'm afraid that I have a few unanswered questions. It's too late now for the AA merger, but I definitely hope that for the next round of mergers, we are a bit more careful in the way we transparently deal with the integration aspects of the two communities.

The last few rounds of the RA were a bit confusing for me, because I was often told "we don't see things this way". Who is this "we"? Today, the question was answered: "we, the AA". It was weird to be sitting in a RA meeting of representatives elected by universal suffrage of all CDS citizens where there was, besides me, just another person who was not an AA member. I usually susbcribe to Moon Adamant's school of thought that the best way to deal with impartiality and neutrality is to invite representatives of all possible viewpoints to the same meeting. So of course I'm very happy to have AA citizens discussing, at the RA, how things should go ahead with the merger. From the perspective of AA citizens, who for some reason might still be "afraid" of a subversion of the process, they can rest assured: all this process has been closely followed by AA citizens inside the RA and the Executive, and they represented the large majority of people present in the discussion. What could be best for AA than controlling the process from within?

Personally, I don't view this as a problem at all. In fact, it might be the best reason why the process did, indeed, finish under very favourable terms for AA, which appeased their "fears". I might be a bit irked by the problem of conflict of interests, but, to be honest, it's impossible to find anyone without any conflict of interests, personal agenda, or bias. My own bias in the process, for instance, is that I love most of the people I know at AA, I'm an expansionist, and welcomed the merger since it was first discussed :) So stopping it at this stage is a folly and would also go against my own desires.

No, the problem lies elsewhere. If AA is allowed not only full access to all decision processes in the CDS — something which should only be natural if we're talking about a "merger of equals" and encouraged to the fullest extent — but actually driving the process on the CDS side (which, again, is not as bad as it sounds — what better reassurance to give AA citizens but to make them understand that the decision bodies in the CDS are, in effect, composed of a majority of so-called "dual citizens"?), I would think that the reverse should apply, too. What this means is that if the CDS is behaving within its goodwill, allowing AA citizens to tell the CDS what should be done about the merger, as "equals", the CDS ought also to be in the same position and expect, also in goodwill, that AA allows CDS citizens to make suggestions, ask questions, and oversee the process.

So far, this hasn't been done. I have been silent about it (sadly, I have other priorities — posting on the forums is not one of them!) since I didn't really worry about the whole issue. The community leaders of AA are my personal friends. The Executive is an elected body with oversight by the RA. The RA is elected by secret ballot among all CDS citizens. This is the basis upon trust is founded in the CDS. The people appointed (and overseen) to participate in the process, on the CDS side, are lawful, respectful, above reproach, and have worked hard, publishing their results, and being open to discuss it publicly, either on the forums, in-world at any occasion, and at the RA in formal session. There was nothing really to worry about during the whole process.

At last we come to a small, tiny, roadblock. Over a month ago, at least, we were told that AA is basically all for the merger, with a slight quirk. They mistrust the CDS' "democratic processes". They fear that once the AA and the CDS sims are under the same administration, AA citizens will be neglected. They fear that the CDS will "impose its will" upon the poor, unresisting AA citizens. They fear that the CDS "culture" (which is not viewed by AA as being democratic at all) might squash their own cultural ways.

And so, after much discussion, a proposal was presented to the RA where, as an act of goodwill, the CDS would relinquish their focus on democratic processes for selecting its representatives, allowing AA citizens to appoint their own representatives directly, without a vote, on the new and expanded RA of nine members.

I had to frown upon the suggestion since the very first day. The reason is simple: the RA is elected, as I don't cease to repeat, by secret ballot, among all CDS citizens — post-merger we're all entitled to a vote and to get elected, no matter where we have our plots of land. In fact, owning land in several plots of the CDS doesn't entitle citizens to have "more votes" or "more power", even if there have been attempts in the past to try to "protect the other CDS sims from the tyranny and oppression of Neufreistadt". If you remember, my own faction was the first to look at these claims as being silly — we're too tiny a community to talk about sim sectarism, and will continue to be tiny for many years. Time proved we were right: these days, the centre of power is in Colonia Nova (both in political power — as all RA meetings are held there — but also in commerce, since the most-selling shops are located in CN too), and the majority of events are held in Locus Amoenus (which might, however, rival Colonia Nova in commerce). Neufreistadt simply lost its significance as "the centre of power", and although the New Guild still meets there, even they are considering to move out.

That's not bad. It just shows group dynamics at work. Power, events, and commerce shift across sim boundaries easily, depending on where the people are going and what they wish to do. NFS is cute and quaint but laggy, with small spaces; commerce, events, and even power is better handled on less laggier places with larger areas. Thus, the notion that each sim (or group of sims) is in a sense "privileged" is absurd, and will continue to be so for a long, long while — until we reach, say, the size of Caledon and a thousand citizens. That's a very long way off!

Nevertheless, this doesn't mean that groups of citizens living in a sim don't informally aggregate in their neighbourhoods, spontaneously doing so, and push for their rights to establish themselves as a locus of interest. That's great! It lead to things like the Monastery and the Bowl Theatre in Alpine Meadows, for instance. It was not "centrally planned", neither was it "organised" — but simply recognised as the right of any citizen to associate with others and do interesting things.

Now let's get back to the issue with Al-Andaluz. In my mind, I was viewing the forthcoming elections as quite interesting. If I recall correctly, the largest factions in the RA tend to attract 18-20 votes or thereabouts. The new faction for Al-Andaluz would have 31 eager and strong voters, and win the next elections easily, with at least 4 out of 9 seats, but possibly even more. This would be quite interesting, as the power within the CDS would shift towards Al-Andaluz, and I viewed this as a good and positive trend. It would mean recognition of the hard work being done to keep Al-Andaluz alive. They will have half the landmass of the CDS and it would be a "natural" move to push the centre of power towards them. They would also be able to bring new, refreshing ideas to be discussed at the RA. Thus, the CDS would be revitalised, breathing new energy and ideas, as a lot of new citizens suddenly shift the power towards a different culture. As this would be done within the solid democratic principles that have been the hallmark of the CDS, I was preparing to embrace the change as very welcome, quite important, and a turning point in the CDS's history — a turn towards the greater good. One more reason to go ahead with the merger, and one reason that had not been obvious from the beginning!

However, it has been told to us that AA has the opposing view. What they see is that suddenly their "rights" will be removed from them, and they will feel the hard crush from the implacable boot of the CDS processes (how they would see such a thing as the majority party at the RA is hard to explain and I'm at a loss to understand it). So they made "demands". They labelled the CDS representative democracy as being "undemocratic" (!) and untrustful (!), and "demanded" the right to be represented at the RA — but without voting. Instead, they want direct appointment of two RA seats for at least 6 months.

Now, I know I'm a naive person. But I know my history. When a group of "democratic" citizens mistrust elections by casting a vote on a secret ballot and instead prefer to "appoint" their representatives, that gets me thinking.

The first reply I had was to remember that a fundamental principle of democracy is that there is no "right way" of being democratic. Rudy Ruml, in fact, was asked the very same question a long time ago, when he was still a CDS citizen, and his answer was pretty much the same: there is no "better" democracy, a "perfect" model that works for every community. Thus, communities usually have their own form of democracy, which fits better to them. Thus, the US democracy is different from British democracy, which in turn has little in common with the French or German models, and nothing whatsoever to do with the direct democracy in Switzerland. Each can rightfully claim that they have "the best model for their country". This is most reasonable as we're assuming one of the most fundamental principles of all these democracies: tolerance.

(Nevertheless, one should also point out that all democracies in the world are representative, parliamentary democracies :) But let's skip that point for a moment)

It's irrefutable that the CDS model of a representative, parliamentary democracy, based on an universal secret ballot that elects factions to seats in the Representative Assembly is just one possible model that just happens to be the favoured one in the CDS. It works for us. Other communities, of course, might have different ways of looking at what democracy means for them and develop their own models.

On the other hand, when different communities merge their respective administrative governments into a single one, it's inevitable that compromises have to be met. Such was the case when creating the United States out of individual states, or the European Union out of individual countries. In several countries across Europe, minorities get representation through "special elections". I remember visiting a Landsrat (parliament) of a state in northern Germany in the late 1980s. They explained to us that since they're at the border with Denmark, and lots of Danes live in Germany — as lots of Germans live across the border in Denmark — both regional parliaments have special rules for the "minorities". The faction lists have to guarantee that at least a few Danes are represented on the German side; and vice-versa. They still get elected, but they have a special "bonus" to make sure that at least a few seats are filled by the minority from across the border. This is normal and common throughout most modern democracies.

So, the request to get "special members" from the AA sims to be automatically represented at the RA is, in essence, a good idea, and has solid backing from historical and existing models throughout the democratic world. I don't see any problem with that.

The problem is actually in the way these representatives from the AA sims enter the (unified) RA. The first drafts hinted that the AA sims would elect 2 members out of 9, while the non-AA sims would elect the other 7. This seemed to be acceptable to a degree (even though it seemed unfair for AA, since, as said, the AA citizens, as a group, could easily elect 4 to 5 seats).

The Constitutional amendment approved today, though, uses this strange wording: "the special election or selection of additional RA representatives from the newly joining estate, by that estate, separate from the regular CDS election" (emphasis mine).

Naturally enough, I have no qualms about "special elections", but the word selection bothered me. So, I asked, very openly: how will citizens in AA sims "select" their representatives?

The answer surprised me. The first reaction was "by consensus". That's fine with me, but what is the actual process of achieving consensus? On the few bodies I know iRL, this usually means that all members cast a vote, and if all agree on the same thing, the decision is made. While it seems quite burdensome to work as a "consensus of 31", if the AA citizens prefer that way of "selecting" their representatives, and we can be given a reasonable assurance that this process doesn't take too long so that we can start the new term with the 9 representatives, I would be fine with it. Skeptic, but fine — it's hard, for instance, to reach a consensus in the RA with just 7 members (of which usually only 5 are available at any given meeting). But, alas, it might just be that we're naturally quarrelsome and hard to achieve "consensus", and that the AA citizens are much better at that.

But then I was told that "there is no vote". AA citizens, apparently, abhor voting. O-kay... so... I'm probably biased, since all organisations I know where people abhor voting are anything but "democratic", but, well, that's fine. Perhaps they tie the notion of "voting" to secret ballots and prefer instead to call out their decision in public — that's also fine, since, except for electing the RA, all other forms of voting in the CDS are done calling out the vote in public.

The next question, of course, was about how this whole process was put into practice. I was explained that AA calls a Town Meeting for important decisions. All right, that's also fine. And whoever appears on that Town Meeting is able to "participate in the consensus".

Mmh right. Adhocracy — we also have that in the New Guild, for instance. It requires a quorum, of course, but after that, anyone appearing on the New Guild is allowed to cast a vote on any item. Since the New Guild hasn't got that many active members, this is a good method for quickly deciding things without getting "stuck" at having to comply with complex procedures. It also works well.

Someone also mentioned that usually, only 4-5 people appear at the Town Meetings anyway (I'm sorry, I haven't seen the transcript yet). So, hmm, what this actually will mean then is... out of 4 or 5 members... two are selected... the remaining 2-3 will accept these as representing "the will of 31 citizens"... and these will then get two seats at the RA for 6 months?

I was told that "this method works". Well, of course it works. I have no doubts that it works quite well! In fact, it will even work better if the Town Meeting only has two people in it and they both agree they should represent the AA and get two free seats at the RA. What could "work" better than that?

When I pointed out that just because a method "worked" it doesn't automatically mean that it is legitimate, democratic, free, open, transparent, tolerant, or representative of the will of the people, I was told to... shut up.

When I insisted that shutting up on such important changes to our Constitution was mostly unfair, I was further told that I have no place in questioning AA's methods of "democracy" and that I should hush and let things go ahead — or bear the burden of dooming the whole merger project.

Well!

While I obviously urge the Scientific Council to deem the amendment under consideration as having an unconstitutional formulation — since the notion of selecting members to the RA is contrary to the Constitution's Article I, Section 1 ("The Representative Assembly (RA) is a body of democratically elected factions which represent different ideological views of its citizens.") — the rest of the amendment is fine. I don't really care "how" the "interim members" of the AA sims are elected — so long as they're elected and not selected. The difference is quite clear to me. An election, even if it's an election by consensus, means that at least every AA citizen is allowed to have a saying in who represents them. A selection means that this choice is withdrawn from them. Furthermore, it was clarified that anyone participating in the AA representative "selection" method, will be prevented from voting in the CDS General Elections, if they happen to own land in other sections of the CDS as well, to prevent "double-voting". So this means that, on one hand, we have a mysterious selection process here. that magically puts two people into the RA without oversight by any body; and on the other hand, a list of current CDS citizens, who are just unfortunate enough to own plots in AA too, will be excluded from their right to vote in the CDS!

And calling this in public is deemed to be "dangerous" and "putting the whole process in jeopardy".

Now I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories. So it's really too early to say if this unfortunate sequence of events is just a coincidence (in real life we have far more coincidences than we think!). It might just be an obscure angle that nobody really cared much about. In the battle between "expansion at all costs" and "representative democracy at all costs", expansion won the first round. So it's a question of pragmatism ("representative democracy is too long-winded, takes too long, is way too confusing") vs. principles ("if we don't compromise with less democratic methods, we'll be stuck at the same size forever"). I'm happy to be defeated on the principles, of course — in the CDS, the majority wins! — but I was also surprised by the public attacks against my person when defending the principles of representative democracy — namely, when questioning that a model that lets a handful of people (ie. 4-5) decide who gets a fourth of the seats in our Representative Assembly might not be entirely "democratic" no matter how much the use of that word is stretched, bended, and twisted beyond recognition.

For the future mergers — since the past is the past, we shouldn't be delving in the past — I sincerely hope that questioning methods and processes used by the communities that wish to merge with the CDS (mind you, we're just questioning, not "interfering" or even "forcing" anything) is not equated with the desires of a minion of the Ninth Circle of Hell. I would even like to be allowed to be present when the Al-Andaluz Town Meeting choses their representatives — but since this clearly will make them "uncomfortable", I will obviously refrain from doing so, but for the next merger, I'll not be so lenient. The AA citizens, once the merger goes ahead, will be full citizens of the CDS and will be allowed to question any and every aspect of the CDS — in public, in private, or however they wish. They will be allowed to sit at the RA and demand their questions to be answered there. They will be allowed to see all records, all transactions, all votes, all transcripts. They will have the right to demand, in short, accountability of all aspects of the CDS life, political or otherwise. And they will be allowed to vote and get elected to any role in Government, if they wish to do so. They're full citizens like anyone else. That's the CDS side of the bargain.

On the other side, in the spirit of goodwill, I would at least expect some openness to be allowed to ask things without getting flagged as anathema, hushed in public, and threatened to "doom the whole project" if I make a simple question like "how will they select their representatives"? This kind of threatening to hush me into submission is quite unacceptable; I'll let it pass for this time (as the merger is now a fait accompli) but I will not be silent on the next one.

From me you can only expect that for the upcoming elections my focus for the campaign will be a defence of representative democracy. In the CDS I envision as a goal, there is no place for secret appointments or hushing up anyone who just wishes to be informed. That's not part of our culture and tradition, and I've always stood up for that — even if it harmed me in the past. And you can also expect that I will fight for the right of the AA sim residents to be fully allowed to question everything about our common government, without fear of getting hushed, ignored, or ostracised for simply raising their voices of concern.

And I do apologise if anyone feels offended by my harsh words. I'm sorry, but defending principles is not an easy task. It makes enemies. But I finish with a quote from my own teachers: getting offended is something that only happens in your mind. That will apply to me too, of course.

"I'm not building a game. I'm building a new country."
  -- Philip "Linden" Rosedale, interview to Wired, 2004-05-08

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Jamie Palisades
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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration ...

Post by Jamie Palisades »

I am moving my reply to Gwyneth to a new thread, as we now are at a new stage.

To re-cap where we are procedurally:
1. RA passed a bill to offer to merge with Al-Andalus.
2. Al-Andalus accepted it.
3. The bill lets A-A decide how to select its interim RA reps. The CSDF members of the RA argued that this is unconstitutional, and that CDS should force A-A to do it our way.
4. The A-A bill passed the deadline when the SC can review it, as several of us have now confirmed ... but we all still thought that the issue of how the constitution treats these things should be addressed. After all, we might do more mergers later.
5. Patroklus and I each posted some drafts and responses of a proposed constitutional amendment.
6. Eventually we brought two fairly similar ones to the RA today.
7. The RA voted on mine. The outcome of that vote will not be determined until two absent RA members cast their absentee votes.
8. The two constitutional amendment bills differ in their treatment of how a merging estate can choose its interim RA members. Pat's CSDF draft said this:

The RA approves merger agreements with other communities. ... The SC approves the number of interim additional RA seats for a community joining the CDS using the formula in Article I, Section 2.

My draft, which was adopted by the RA, said this:

The RA approves merger agreements with other communities. In the merger agreement, the RA may provide for a reasonable transition plan for representation of additional citizens added by reason of the merger. At the RA's discretion, that plan may provide for (a) the special election or selection of additional RA representatives from the newly joining estate, by that estate, separate from the regular CDS election; (b) a full term or shorter or longer transition term for those representatives; and (c) reasonable methods for an initial estimate of the number of RA members to be added. . . . The SC approves the number of interim additional RA seats for a community joining the CDS using the formula in Article I, Section 2, and may hear and adjudicate appeals of the conformance of its merger agreement with the requirements of the Constitution.

9. During today's RA meting, Claude posted a notice of an SC meeting for tomorrow. There is no notice of what it will cover.
10. Later the same day (US time), Gwyneth posted a long argument that the new bill .. a constitutional amendment ... if it passes ... is unconstitutional. Her post is above, in this thread.

== My Second Life home is CDS. Retired after three terms
== as chancellor of the oldest self-governing sims in SL.
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Patroklus Murakami
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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Jamie Palisades wrote:

Patroklus, thanks again; your last bill above looks nicely simple and workable in design. I still do, however, want there to be no doubt that the AA merger bill WAS and IS constitutional. And, as you pointed out, that the SC must have power to fix things if in any given case we exceed our grasp. Wouldn't it be an embarrassment to all of us if someone took a position otherwise?

So I suggest we augment your latest draft as follows [new language in brackets]:

------------------------------------------------
PROPOSED CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT

Add at end of Article I, Section 1 (The Representative Assembly): "The RA approves merger agreements with other communities. [In the merger agreement, the RA may provide for a reasonable transition plan for representation of additional citizens added by reason of the merger. At the RA's discretion, that plan may provide for (a) the special election or selection of additional RA representatives from the newly joining estate, by that estate, separate from the regular CDS election; (b) a full term or shorter or longer transition term for those representatives; and (c) reasonable methods for an initial estimate of the number of RA members to be added.]"

Add at end of Article II, Section 2 (c) (Powers of The Chancellor): "and to enter into merger discussions with other communities"

Insert after first paragraph, Article III, Section 8 (Powers of the SC): "The SC approves the number of interim additional RA seats for a community joining the CDS using the formula in Article I, Section 2 [, and may hear and adjudicate appeals of the conformance of its merger agreement with the requirements of the Constitution]. "

Regards Jamie

Unfortunately, the changes made to this amendment meant I could not support it at Sunday's RA meeting. My position on the merger has not changed - I'm 100% in favour of merger with Al Andalus. The problem is that this constitutional amendment, while it might get us through our current difficulties, is a hostage to fortune. Furthermore, it introduces a fundamentally undemocratic concept - that RA reps can be 'selected' as opposed to being elected by some democratic method.

Now, let's not misrepresent people's positions here. I don't want to tell AA how to choose their reps for the RA. Now that the selection method has been explained to me (in Sunday's RA session) I'm happy to go along with it. I have a number of criticisms I could make of the methodology :) I think there are some fundamental flaws which a secret ballot would solve but, this is not a 'die in a ditch' issue for me (i.e. a point on which I would never give ground, a red line).

But this amendment goes further. It puts the idea of 'selection' in our Constitution and it is a hostage to fortune. What happens when we encounter an estate which wants to merge with us but is larger? I doubt Caledon will ever want to make us this offer but, what if they did? Would we be happy with the Guv'nor choosing the majority of the RA reps for the CDS in any fashion he chooses? (On the other hand, if the citizens of Caledon were to elect their representatives, I wouldn't have a problem with it at all!)

So, to recap. Here's where we are:
1. We have offered to merge with AA
2. AA agreed on the terms offered
3. Some of us don't like those terms but... the RA has decided
4. There is a constitutional amendment in play (Jamie's) which is intended to provide cover for that offer
5. We are waiting on the votes of two RA members to decide whether this gets a 2/3 majority or not.

Now, I sincerely hope that one or both of Sonja and Brian will vote against the amendment. Then we can get on with drafting one that works.

We have been told that AA will walk away from the agreement if that happens. The AA people I have met all seem pretty reasonable to me. I can't believe that reasonable people would walk away from a deal because we didn't agree a constitutional amendment last Sunday when this was posted a few hours before the meeting. Everyone wants the merger to happen, everyone wants to draft an amendment that works. The problem is that this one isn't it. Let's keep trying to find a solution. I can't make an RA meeting this Sunday but there's no reason why the RA could not meet to consider a new constitutional amendment if Jamie's fails. After all the effort that has gone in to making this merger a reality, let's not lose our nerve at the last moment. And I do truly appreciate all the work that Jamie, Rose, RA members, AA citizens and others have put into getting us this far.

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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Cindy Ecksol »

Pat, you are creating a controversy out of whole cloth here. All Jamie's addition to your amendment did was give the RA the ability to work out an appropriate method of selecting transitional reps in case of a merger. And he clarified the SC's ability to review that decision. This sounds much more "democratic" to me than the current system, which places all of that discretionary power in the hands of the SC.

You are also setting up a false comparison between "selection" and "election". In CDS, we select our representatives via secret ballot and a complex vote counting system. In AA reps are selected via consensus, much as our factions do in CDS. In Caledon reps are selected by The Guvnah at his whim. You can contrast and compare the merits of these selection methods, but it makes no sense to contrast "selection" and "election". The latter is just one method of the former.

So if you are ok with AA's selection method, and you are a supporter of the democratic nature and function of the RA I guess I'm wondering why you are not advocating that Sonja and Brian vote in favor of the amendment. I'm not ready to merge with Caledon, but there are already some other interesting possibilities lined up that we could be looking at once the process for merging is perfectly clear.

Cindy

Cindy

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Patroklus Murakami
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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Cindy, with respect, I think Jamie's amendment did more than that. Jamie's amendment was a step backwards towards one of the earlier, longer proposed constitutional amendments I drafted. I was told that what is needed is a short, enabling amendment which gives flexibility. That is what I drafted and which, if it hadn't been amended, would have passed unanimously. I was ready to vote in favour of a constitutional amendment that would enable the merger, I'd even drafted it and a number of previous versions! Surely it was clear that both Gwyn and I would have a problem with voting for Jamie's version? I find the insistence on pushing through a version that you knew we would vote against baffling especially since it would need every one of the other 5 votes on the RA in order to be passed.

I see the distinction between 'selection' and 'election' as rather firmer than you do. Your examples suggest that 'selection' could cover both AAs consensus approach and Caledon's Guv'nah's dictat. That is the problem! It takes us away from a founding principle of the CDS - that legislative reps are elected.

To be clear, I am prepared to live with AAs selection method for this merger but I'm not 100% happy with it! I have thought about how to express the problems I see with that approach but I don't want to inadvertently cause offence. Perhaps it's a discussion we can have at another time? Also, it's a done deal so there's no point in trying to reopen it. Others have pointed out that my earlier proposed amendments would have undone aspects of the deal with AA so I have dropped them. I don't want the CDS to be accused of negotiating in bad faith.

I also don't want the merger to fail on this point. Whether Jamie's constitutional amendment passes or not, I don't see any good reason why the merger can't go ahead.

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Claude Desmoulins
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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Claude Desmoulins »

Interestingly, I heard an Karim Sadjadpour from the Carnegie Foundation for International Peace on the Colbert Report using the election v. selection distinction in referring to Iran. It was virtual déjà vu.

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