Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Proposals for legislation and discussions of these

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Sonja Strom
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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Sonja Strom » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:33 am

LOL - - Here is the link for it, if you would like to see it: http://www.comedycentral.com/colbertrep ... eId=230603

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Re: Electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Sonja Strom » Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:16 pm

A lot of thought and work has gone into a constitutional amendment based on our experience with this merger, some of which I have added to. In the last RA meeting a vote was taken on one iteration of it, posted here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2453&start=15#p13405
I was not able to be at that meeting, and had requested a seven-day vote for it.

In careful consideration of this amendment I have asked questions of everyone who seemed to care about it, and have looked at several different issues. Among them:
Is it necessary to have right now? The answer I see is no.
Is it wanted by the community? The answer I see is not entirely.
Would it solve a problem? The answer I see is not really.
Would it improve the CDS Constitution? The answer I see is not really.
If the answer to any one of these questions were yes I would continue to think about it, but this is not the case.

My vote on the amendment is No.

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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Patroklus Murakami » Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:59 am

Sonja

Thank you for posting your decision and your reasons. I appreciate that this must have been a tough choice to make given the discussions on the proposal to date. I hope that everyone will respect your decision and the honorable motives behind it. We all want the merger to take place as agreed. We have not yet heard Brian's vote on the constitutional amendment presented to last week's RA meeting but, as the proposal cannot gain 5 votes out of 7, it cannot pass.

We have not yet heard if there has been a reaction from Al Andalus. I hope that this will not affect the merger in any way. The offer made by the RA still stands. We have yet to find a way to amend our Constitution so that there can be no question that the details of the merger agreement are wholly valid and consistent with CDS law but I think we are almost there.

I'd like to propose a modified version of the 'minimalist' constitutional amendment I posted earlier in this thread. This has been designed to cater for the AA merger (and other potential future mergers) while leaving the details for negotiation by the Chancellor and agreement by the RA. I've added in the kind of language from the UDHR Article 21 which talks about 'freely chosen representatives'. I hope that this kind of language can cover the kind of process AA have in mind without insisting that a secret ballot is held. Don't get me wrong, I still think secret ballots are *very* important but, as the UDHR permits 'equivalent free voting procedures' then no doubt so should we. I have also taken out the section specifically giving the SC the power to rule on the number of seats a joining community should get. This power does not need to be spelled out in the Constitution as the SC can review any decision of the RA. And it has been pointed out to me that this would undermine the agreement already reached with AA on the minimum number of seats AA reps will have in the RA.

I will ask Soro to convene an RA meeting this Sunday 21 June in order to consider this proposed constitutional amendment. Unfortunately, I won't be available to attend in person and will need to request a seven-day vote. This feels like the best chance we might have of getting agreement on a constitutional amendment by the 22/23 June which is a few days before, as I understand it, AA might be prepared to formally start the merger process.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PROPOSED CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT

Add at end of Article I, Section 1 (The Representative Assembly): "The RA approves merger agreements with other communities."

Add at end of Article I, Section 2 (The Representative Assembly Body): "The RA may be supplemented with interim additional representatives, freely chosen by a community joining the CDS."

Add at end of Article II, Section 2 (c) (Powers of The Chancellor): "and to enter into merger discussions with other communities"
Honi soit qui mal y pense

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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Cindy Ecksol » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:18 pm

Sorry, but I am out of town so will be unable to attend a meeting this weekend - email, but no SL capable computer. And after considering Sonja's comments, I am inclined to agree that there is no immediate need for an amendment, so I suggest that any further discussion wait until the next scheduled meeting.

As for AA status, I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Everyone involved (myself included) is pretty tired of all the ups and downs, not to mention more than a bit taken aback at the implication that AA operates in any way like the Republic of Iran.

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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Claude Desmoulins » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:19 pm

For the record, from what I know of the proposed Al Andalus process of choosing RA reps, it appears to me transparent and democratic. I heard Pat make the selection/election statement before the Colbert episode in question and thus have no evidence that Pat was making a comparison to Iran. I doubt very much that the Carnegie foundation person knows what CDS even is. Nevertheless, hearing the same phrase applied to two admittedly very different circumstances in the space of 24 hours is something I found striking. If my notice implies a parallelism between the situations it was certainly not intended.

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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Sonja Strom » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:23 am

I also did not mean to say they are the same, and I don't think they are. What I found amusing was to hear the same word used in such a different context. It was like a wild caricature of Patroklus' fears. Also, I thought the show was funny (it is a comedy show, see the name of it in the URL). If I have offended anyone I am sorry - that was certainly not my intention.

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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Rose Springvale » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:41 am

Thank you Sonja and Claude. I don't want anyone to get the impression that I or anyone associated with Al Andalus is without humor. Sometimes though it is important to put some context around our laughter. Colbert is funny; the execution of people exercising rights we take for granted is not.

My understanding is that a discussion group is forming in A A about that election... at least i was given a notecard to stimulate one. We are also working on a "Tolerance" museum and library. Maybe we'll add this thread and the film clip.

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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Brian Livingston » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:42 pm

Cross Post from RA Discussion Forum: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2468

In regards to the Proposed Constitutional Amendment, presented for a vote at the June 14th meeting of the Representative Assembly, my vote is aye.

-- Brian Livingston

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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Sonja Strom » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:27 pm

Patroklus Murakami wrote:I will ask Soro to convene an RA meeting this Sunday 21 June in order to consider this proposed constitutional amendment. Unfortunately, I won't be available to attend in person and will need to request a seven-day vote.
The RA did not meet today (see post viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2469), but a meeting is scheduled for the normal time of next Sunday, the 28th of June at 9:00 a.m. SLT.

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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Soro Dagostino » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:00 am

I asked around, and there weren't enough folk who could attend the meeting to obtain a quorum for yesterday. The matter will be placed on the Agenda for next Sunday. A proponent will be necessary for the matter to be placed before the RA.

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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Patroklus Murakami » Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:13 am

PROPOSED CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT

Add at end of Article I, Section 1 (The Representative Assembly): "The RA approves merger agreements with other communities."

Add at end of Article I, Section 2 (The Representative Assembly Body): "The RA may be supplemented with interim additional representatives, freely chosen by a community joining the CDS."

Add at end of Article II, Section 2 (c) (Powers of The Chancellor): "and to enter into merger discussions with other communities"
Any thoughts on this proposed constitutional amendment? I hope we will be able to debate this on Sunday.
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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Soro Dagostino » Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:40 am

Agreed -- it will be on the Agenda.

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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Cindy Ecksol » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:45 pm

I am living on a campground in Newport, PA this week with 300 of my best musical buddies and working on a serious case of sleep deprivation as we strive to play every tune any of us can remember how to lead before Monday morning. So I will be unable to attend the meeting and engage in the debate and request a 7 day vote.

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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Sonja Strom » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:32 pm

The last proposal put forward by Patroklus seems good to me. I don't have any suggestions for how to make it better.

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Re: Al Andalus, electoral integration, further legislation

Post by Rose Springvale » Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:59 am

Personally, i don't believe the word merger or anything so specific belongs in a constitution at all, but i think i've told you all that.

On this proposal specifically, the center clause is fraught with issues... "supplemented?" does that mean not to be fully included.. not to be counted for quorum purposes, etc? Just a little bit extra that you don't really need? and "may be" implies that it is optional anyway!

and this phrase:
"freely chosen by a community joining the CDS." tries again to write deals not yet made. "Freely chosen?" who makes that determination? "by the community?" implies that the owners of the estate are not allowed to make a deal. Maybe you think that all sims that join CDS must already be democratic before they join. Seems sort of short sighted in the reality of SL.

You already have the RA approving merger agreements in the first article. You authorize the Chancellor to "enter into discussions" in the third. The middle one (article 1 section 2 amendment) is not needed and should not be included in any constitutional amendment, or in my opinion, legislation at all.

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