Envisioning the CDS

[Beathan]

Rosie,

We appear to hold each other in mirrored regard -- hopefully the other members of the RA can work together better than you and I can. I want the CDS to be something real, important, and significant, not just to the several of us involved in it, but to the entire emerging virtual universe. I get the impression that you are more interested in the several relationship you have here than in what our project could be in the larger scheme, and I find that regrettable in one of our officials. That is a private interest -- and it should not trump the public interest.

As for your criticism of me -- I am aware of my own deep flaws as a person and a citizen, and they unsuit me for positions such as PIO and Chancellor. However, lack of clear vision is not one of them. That is why I choose to serve on the RA rather than in an executive position that requires more active engagement and organization of activities, which are not my strengths.

Beathan

[Rosie Gray]

Rosie,

We appear to hold each other in mirrored regard -- hopefully the other members of the RA can work together better than you and I can. I want the CDS to be something real, important, and significant, not just to the several of us involved in it, but to the entire emerging virtual universe. I get the impression that you are more interested in the several relationship you have here than in what our project could be in the larger scheme, and I find that regrettable in one of our officials. That is a private interest -- and it should not trump the public interest. To quote P.G.R. Beauregard, "If certain minds cannot understand the difference between patriotism, the highest civic virtue, and office-seeking, the lowest civic occupation, I pity them from the bottom of my heart."

As for your criticism of me -- I am aware of my own deep flaws as a person and a citizen, and they unsuit me for positions such as PIO and Chancellor. However, lack of clear vision is not one of them. That is why I choose to serve on the RA rather than in an executive position that requires more active engagement and organization of activities, which are not my strengths.

Beathan

Well Beathan, I too want the CDS to be something real, important and significant, and that's why I participate in it. What your impression is of me being only interested in several relationships is based on you knowing absolutely nothing about me. You have never tried to talk to me in anything but the most condescending manner.

And, as usual, you have not answered my questions, only lashed out at me personally again. I think that speaks volumes about your character.

[Beathan]

Rosie,

I think I have answered your question a couple times now. If you don't think so, please ask it again, and I will try to answer it again.

Beathan

[Rosie Gray]

Rosie,

I think I have answered your question a couple times now. If you don't think so, please ask it again, and I will try to answer it again.

Beathan

1) What have you personally done, Beathan, other than criticize? Have you hosted an event, or carried out a marketing campaign, or created a garden or a building, or sponsored something in the CDS? Have you hung around the sims to chat to people and make them feel welcome?

2) Beathan - you are equating building a new sim with recruitment of new citizens. Where is there any evidence that building a new sim will do that?

3) How do you know that a majority want a new sim? How do you know that they want to continue the Bavarian theme? I imagine it is because of the survey that I did and reported on and posted in this thread. How ironic. The envisioning was meant to expand on ideas further so that everyone can have their say. Isn't that democratic and inclusive enough for you?

4) How much time do you, Beathan, spend personally engaged in reaching out to other sims to engage them? Or is this an exercise in telling others what they should be doing?

[Beathan]

Rosie,

I think I have answered your question a couple times now. If you don't think so, please ask it again, and I will try to answer it again.

Beathan

1) What have you personally done, Beathan, other than criticize? Have you hosted an event, or carried out a marketing campaign, or created a garden or a building, or sponsored something in the CDS? Have you hung around the sims to chat to people and make them feel welcome?

2) Beathan - you are equating building a new sim with recruitment of new citizens. Where is there any evidence that building a new sim will do that?

3) How do you know that a majority want a new sim? How do you know that they want to continue the Bavarian theme? I imagine it is because of the survey that I did and reported on and posted in this thread. How ironic. The envisioning was meant to expand on ideas further so that everyone can have their say. Isn't that democratic and inclusive enough for you?

4) How much time do you, Beathan, spend personally engaged in reaching out to other sims to engage them? Or is this an exercise in telling others what they should be doing?

1. I have met new people and spoke with them and welcomed them (although not much the last two months because my rl has intruded). I have not hosted events -- that is not my thing, and not something I find important -- other than my salon-like political discussions, which are ad hoc affairs rather than events. I appreciate events, but I don't much enjoy them -- and I know that I don't have the skills to pull them off. What I can do is propose legislative intiatives to improve our project and implement systems that others can implement very well (far better than I could). That has always been, and remains, my best contribution to our community.

2. If we build it, they will come -- especially if we attract them. I want to always have land available for new citizens to buy, even if we have an active effort to recruit. I am confident, from past experience, that with a new sim and active recruitment, we will get new, active, talented citizens. A new sim is a key part of that picture, but not the only part -- active promotion of the CDS is the other.

3. I appreciate the survey -- and have said so. I don't appreciate the visioning, at least not a a prerequisite to the expansion project, because I find it to be a sideshow. I don't think visioning discussions are democratic -- democratic elections are democratic; elected representatives acting on their mandates are democratic; discussions about "visioning" are, well, the worst kind of committee excess. I have never found such an effort, in SL or in RL, to be worthwhile. They involve a lot of time and apparent effort and produce something that has no practical benefit at all. I would rather act -- and then act to correct any missteps that were made from acting -- than to try to come up with some vision that will be either ignored when we act or will merely confirm us in what we would have done anyway.

4. I have not done much sim outreach (at least not for several years) myself. That is true. When I did, I was not that good at it. Given how contentious you think I am, do you really want me to be the one to do that? I love the clash of ideas -- both the ideas and the clash -- and believe that great policy, especially in a democracy, arises from such a clash. That is a skillset, but it is not the skillset of a diplomat.

Beathan

[Trebor Warcliffe]

I’d like to enter this discussion as a neutral third party in order to clarify a few things. I don’t want my observations to be misconstrued as personal attacks against anyone because they aren’t. I do most of my writing with Office 2007 so I will be cutting and pasting previous sections of this discussion in my letter as italicized font.

3. The RA shall then consider the plans and vote on them. The plan that receives the most support shall be implemented by the Executive, who shall purchase a Sim and coordinate with the Artisanal Collective for that purpose.

Beathan the Artisanal Collective has ceased to be in existence since June 7, 2008; almost 4 years now. It was replaced by the New Guild. Though a minor oversight it could lead to confusion for people reading your post who have never heard of the Artisanal Collective.

However, on the Sim expansion, I think we have enough information now to proceed that your call for "visioning" is a red-herring sidetrack. If it is not an intentional act of delay (and I will take your word on that), then it is an accidental misstep and a mistake. In any case, we can and should proceed now.

I can assure you that Rosie’s call for “visioning” is not a red-herring sidetrack and I agree with you that we can and should proceed now. I feel Rosie’s call for visioning is her attempt at catering to a vocal minority of citizens who felt they were left out of the loop when ideas were first explored. I know you were unable to attend the meeting that was held but I do need to ask if you have read the transcript to the meeting before you started this thread? I will paste the pertinent details here for you and other concerned citizens to read.

[09:15:08] Rosie Gray: anyway, we can proceed assuming that the decision is to purchase a sim
[09:15:16] Rosie Gray: otherwise there's no point in us talking about it
[09:15:17] Rosie Gray: lol
[09:15:21] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: Why not do a referendum.
[09:15:25] Mrs Anna Oxygen (annabel.coveria) is online.
[09:16:00] Shep (shep.titian): lol
[09:16:04] Rosie Gray: now, about the themes
[09:16:42] Rosie Gray: anyone have anything to add to the themes topic? It did seem to bring up some different ideas
[09:16:47] Shep (shep.titian): I would take it as a vote of confidence that they are happy with the rest deciding
[09:16:55] Trebor Warcliffe: Yes I agree Shep
[09:17:26] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: I would think a referendum would give all the citizens a voice.
[09:17:30] Trebor Warcliffe: Rosie I think it really depends on how many sims we start with.
[09:17:37] Shep (shep.titian): Well I voted carribean/pirate
[09:17:39] Rosie Gray: all the citizens had a voice on the survey
[09:17:42] Mrs Anna Oxygen (annabel.coveria) is offline.
[09:17:44] Trebor Warcliffe: Yes they did
[09:17:50] Lilith Ivory: well, all citizens had a chance to fill this survey
[09:17:51] Trebor Warcliffe: With plenty of notice
[09:18:08] Rosie Gray: and now we are here to gather any more ideas
[09:18:10] Trebor Warcliffe: You can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink

It’s my understanding that a referendum is when we submit a proposal to be placed on the next elections ballot. That would be a total waste of time when more than sufficient notice and time was given to fill out the survey. We had 22 people who cared enough to respond to the survey. Considering we had only 38 citizens vote in the last elections when our population was close to 90 I feel 22 out of our current population is comparable.

[09:23:28] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i think that me and satir didnt fill out the survey and we want to now, did you Timo ?
[09:23:33] josjoha: i'd like a Bavarian more then Roman, just taste
[09:23:43] Timo Gufler: I have not filled out the survey
[09:23:44] Rosie Gray: you were not a citizen then, Cleo
[09:23:49] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i am now.
[09:23:49] Rosie Gray: and the survey is closed now

Are we supposed to stop everything because one individual decided to rejoin the community after the survey was closed? No of course not. And no disrespect to Satir or Timo but they had the opportunity to participate. Satir further along in the discussion admits it was her fault that she didn’t participate.

altho yes I missed notices and dont check forums so its my fault on that too

The issue of a referendum doesn’t go away as the individual continues to bring it up.

[09:45:53] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: Why not do a referendum ?
[09:46:12] Rosie Gray: why keep asking the same question, when it's been answered
[09:46:14] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: Then you get a lot of people
[09:46:29] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: everyone did not answer the survery or know about it .

No you don’t get a lot of people as was reflected in our last election where only 38 out of 89 (42%) of the citizens came out to participate. And historically this has always been the case so delaying expansion for another 3 to 4 months is senseless.

[09:46:43] Trebor Warcliffe: There was plenty of notice
[09:46:44] Satir DeCuir: I didnt even know there would be expansion
[09:46:45] Rosie Gray: ever;y citizehn had plenty of opportunity to do the survey
[09:47:01] Rosie Gray: if they choose not to participate, that is their choice
[09:47:04] Trebor Warcliffe: If people dont take the time to fill themselves in on information that is easily provided than thats to bad for them
[09:47:16] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: Everyone didnt know.
[09:47:23] Trebor Warcliffe: For them to come back and say "I didnt know about it" when it was well known is not our fault
[09:47:28] Rosie Gray: then they pay no attention to notices
[09:47:34] Bells Semyorka: there was notices and forums listings if this was about the expansion
[09:47:36] Trebor Warcliffe: What would you like us to do send a personal email to everyone?
[09:47:37] Rosie Gray: you can't babysit people
[09:47:58] Trebor Warcliffe: Hell they get personal emails to pay tier and they still dont pay their tier.
[09:48:02] Callipygian Christensen: The survey was posted on the forums, was anounced in in world group notices, mentioned in various transcripts of RA etc - people have to take *some* responsibility to stay informed
[09:48:22] Trebor Warcliffe: They know elections are held every six months yet onl y38 people voted for Chancellor out of close to 90 eligible people
[09:48:32] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: Ok i understand you do not want to wait.
[09:48:37] Trebor Warcliffe: So dont get me sstarted on thsi "they didnt knwo crap"
[09:49:19] Trebor Warcliffe: Im sick and tired of people standing on the sidelines and only wanting to participate when its something that benefits them or something there against
[09:49:39] Bells Semyorka nods
[09:49:43] Rosie Gray nods too
[09:49:47] Trebor Warcliffe: If you want to be involved than you make yourself involved
[09:49:51] josjoha: (let's get back to the sim design question..)
[09:49:58] Rosie Gray: yes, please
[09:50:14] Trebor Warcliffe: Sorry Jos yes lets get back to the point of why were here

[09:52:30] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: referendums. make a law you can do one mid term.
[09:52:40] Rosie Gray: who would agree to NFS east?
[09:52:43] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: so everyone can vote.
[09:52:43] Trebor Warcliffe: go on Rosie, my apologies
[09:52:45] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: nay
[09:52:45] Mrs Anna Oxygen (annabel.coveria) is offline.
[09:52:49] Timo Gufler: if we "voted" it would be just a poll
[09:52:51] josjoha: aye
[09:52:55] Trebor Warcliffe: aye
[09:52:58] Lilith Ivory: aye
[09:52:59] Rosie Gray: it is just a poll, yes
[09:53:02] Rosie Gray: and I vote aye
[09:53:03] Timo Gufler: aye
[09:53:06] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: agreed timo its a poll of who is present. not the citizens who care.
[09:53:29] josjoha: yes, informal poll is all : )
[09:53:30] Mrs Anna Oxygen (annabel.coveria) is online.
[09:53:43] Rosie Gray: anyone else voting nay?
[09:53:48] Trebor Warcliffe: Obviously the 14 citizens in attendance care

[09:54:17] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: So , because Tor isnt here, he doesnt care ?
[09:54:26] Rosie Gray: he filled out the survey

About 20 minutes later in the discussion is when Rosie finally gives in and mentions a referendum, a suggestion that I for one am against and I honestly feel Rosie brought it up to silence the minority, not as a red-herring sidetrack.

[10:21:34] Rosie Gray: well... we can call for a referendum
[10:21:37] Trebor Warcliffe: Let me ask this than
[10:22:00] Trebor Warcliffe: Can we call a referendum for eveyones approval for NFS East and 1 island sim?
[10:22:13] Callipygian Christensen: exactly - you can have a dozen meetings, repeat yourselves over and over..someone *still* wont feel they were informed - so put together the 'here is what people seem to want , pick the one you support..and get it done
[10:22:30] Trebor Warcliffe: The general feeling is that's what the majority is leaning towards
[10:23:10] Timo Gufler: I think the nfs east and the water sim shouldn't voted as a package
[10:23:12] Trebor Warcliffe: Yes Calli we can't wait around forever for people to decide when they want to become a part of us and contribute
[10:23:23] Trebor Warcliffe: Whats your suggestin Timo
[10:23:26] Bells Semyorka nods
[10:23:28] Callipygian Christensen: I believe any actual official Referendum has to be attached to the next elections..
[10:23:46] Trebor Warcliffe: Thats going to be a waste of time than
[10:23:48] Timo Gufler: give them several options about the next sim
[10:23:53] Trebor Warcliffe: And nothing will get done
[10:23:57] Callipygian Christensen: which is why I think an unnoficila one 'vote for your choice' will be speedier
[10:23:58] Trebor Warcliffe: Timi we did htat
[10:24:02] Trebor Warcliffe: With the survey
[10:24:06] Lilith Ivory: maybe say: do you want both or NFS east or water/islands or nothing of that
[10:24:11] Edward Ballinger: you don't have to wait for an election to buy sims..... that would take forever
[10:24:21] Trebor Warcliffe: Thats why we're talkign about NFS East and a water sim
[10:24:22] Bells Semyorka: were just chaising our tails again
[10:24:25] Trebor Warcliffe: Correct Ed
[10:24:34] Timo Gufler: hmmm
[10:24:46] Trebor Warcliffe: We gave anyone and everyoen interested almost a month
[10:24:50] Rosie Gray: yes
[10:24:55] Trebor Warcliffe: to contribute there thoughts to the survey
[10:24:58] Timo Gufler: my impression was that we were discussion about the next sim, not about the next sims
[10:24:59] Bells Semyorka: I filled mine out the fisrt day
[10:25:02] Trebor Warcliffe: that is why were meeting now
[10:25:05] Trebor Warcliffe: same here Bells

Trebor Warcliffe

[FernLeissa]

Rosie,

I like the idea of asking citizens to elaborate on their vision of what CDS is, or will be. I think that helps us decide why we want new sims and what we’ll do with them; not just theme but what exactly we want to build.

I also envision a beautiful landscape, wandering waterways for boats, windy paths, and gardens, town centres with places to gather and talk. And yes, I’d like to see the sides of the sims finished.

Libraries, museums, art galleries and to borrow an idea from Beathan’s earlier visioning, a university, are all things I can see in our community. I especially like the idea of a university if we expand the Bavarian theme, though maybe 14th rather than 19th century if we stick with the medieval time frame.

But I’d definitely like to hear what others think about what kind of community we are trying to build.

Fern

[Patroklus Murakami]

We've held commission meetings, a survey and discussed this partly at RA meetings. I'm sure there's been lots of informal discussion too.

The RA is there to take these kind of decisions. I think weve done enough consultation now and it's time to make a decision. I'm ready to vote for a new NFS East sim.

What do the other RA members want to do? If we have a majority in favour, let's get on with it. If not, let's keep talking.

[Beathan]

Trebor --

Thank you for your post. Based on exchanges I have had with Rosie (both on the forums and inworld), although deeply flawed as interpersonal interactions, I am persuaded that I misjudged her motives and effort and that she is trying to take the CDS in a good and healthy direction. That said, I continue to oppose linking "visioning" to expansion. I agree with Pat that the RA has enough information now (based on Rosie's efforts) to act, and that we should.

I also think that visioning, especially central planning at a community or state level, is frequently harmful and always useless. That said, discussing visions -- provided it not take on the character of central planning or cause community definition to the point of ingrouping and outgrouping -- is not harmful. However, I think that such discussions should occur within a partisan context -- with different candidates or political factions/parties developing separate, competing visions which can be presented and tested through elections and the democratic process. Such a competition of ideas and visions produces far better results than the arrival at premature and misleading consensus through informal meetings of relatively small numbers of citizens.

Beathan

P.S. Trebor -- thank you for your observation that I misnamed the "New Guild" as the "Artisanal Collective". That was a mental slip on my part, based largely on my memory of how we did some earlier Sim Expansions. I must be getting older.

[Beathan]

Rosie,

I like the idea of asking citizens to elaborate on their vision of what CDS is, or will be. I think that helps us decide why we want new sims and what we’ll do with them; not just theme but what exactly we want to build.

I also envision a beautiful landscape, wandering waterways for boats, windy paths, and gardens, town centres with places to gather and talk. And yes, I’d like to see the sides of the sims finished.

Libraries, museums, art galleries and to borrow an idea from Beathan’s earlier visioning, a university, are all things I can see in our community. I especially like the idea of a university if we expand the Bavarian theme, though maybe 14th rather than 19th century if we stick with the medieval time frame.

But I’d definitely like to hear what others think about what kind of community we are trying to build.

Fern

Fern,

If we do get to expand NFS this term, I am planning to submit a University Sim proposal. My thinking is also aligning with yours on the date -- 15th Century instead of 19th. (I'm not sure that there were any Bavarian Universities before the 15th Century, but if someone knows of one, tell me.)

I am focusing my ideas through two existing universities -- the University of Munich (founded 1472 as the University of Ingoldstadt) and the University of Bamberg (founded in 1647). The existing historic architecture at these schools appears to be very consistent with that in NFS. A University sim, aside from giving us designed education space, allowing for us to expand our activities to include more educational events (possibly even permanent education activities) and thereby increasing the use and reality of our sims, would also provide a rich opportunity for us to add gardens, a museum, a library. It is the nature of a University to not have (or to have limited) commercial space and to have very compact and efficient residential space, allowing for maximum utilitarian public space. This might overweight the public/private percentages on the space -- but that could be addressed through sponsorship or public space or by having a higher than normal per meter tier.

I am unsure of how to handle a proposal to the RA by a member of the RA in a competitive proposal process. In the real world, I would have to abstain from the vote, however that might cause weird math in the RA voting. I am inclined to submit my proposal and then vote in favor of all proposals submitted as an alternative.

Beathan

[Rosie Gray]

I feel Rosie’s call for visioning is her attempt at catering to a vocal minority of citizens who felt they were left out of the loop when ideas were first explored.
Trebor Warcliffe

That was exactly it Trebor, thank you.

[FernLeissa]

Beathan,

I was thinking about the University of Heidelberg (1386). So yeah, really I guess we are talking about 15th century, for all practical purposes. Heidelberg would also be interesting as I believe it was the model for establishing US graduate education. And they had a strong law component, which sounds like us.

Fern

[Rosie Gray]

I like the visual idea of a university, but what would we actually do with it? I'm also wondering how it would sustain itself financially. Any thoughts?

[Beathan]

Well, I know that I personally would buy a plot there (professorial housing) and would explore offering classes on various subjects in which I have some competency (law, philosophy, etc.) -- possibly on the scholastic model (in keeping both with the historical period and because the freeform debate, thesis and counterthesis approach fits my personality). I think others could do that, too (we are a talented and knowledgeable bunch) -- possibly creating its own community with a vibrancy found in scholastic universities, where teachers and pupils debated and changed places or split off, like beehives, in a self-perpetuating pattern (although that was more French than German).

Also, there is a lot of educational activity occurring in SL generally, some of which has no permanent presence (visiting lecturers, dignitaries) and some of which is associated with groups that own no land. We could offer use of our space (selectively) to such groups, getting both traffic and interest and thereby expanding our SL footprint.

Beathan

[Beathan]

Beathan,

I was thinking about the University of Heidelberg (1386). So yeah, really I guess we are talking about 15th century, for all practical purposes. Heidelberg would also be interesting as I believe it was the model for establishing US graduate education. And they had a strong law component, which sounds like us.

Fern

Good, I'll look at that. I'm also looking at the University of Vienna (1365) to even out the date of Bamberg.

Beathan