08:09] Delia Lake: So, I call to order this meeting of the Scientific Council, Sunday, 12 February 2023 at 8:09 am
[08:10] Delia Lake: The first order of business is to schedule the installation of the portrait of Soro Dagistino here in Chambers
[08:11] Delia Lake: Calli, when would you suggest we do this? Given youir schedule and that we want to announce it in case citizens want to come, and of course with Emilia's schedule too
[08:13] Sandy Burgess raises her hand.
[08:13] Callipygian Christensen: I think we ask Emilia what is a good time for her, hopefully next weekend and schedule by that
[08:13] Delia Lake: ok
[08:14] Callipygian Christensen: It can certainly be done when I am away if that is necessary too.
[08:14] Delia Lake: well, since you're the photographer I think you should be the one to put it out
[08:15] Callipygian Christensen: no..Emilia took the photo, I just shopped it and framed, so we'll doit jointly 
[08:15] Callipygian Christensen: Ill message her
[08:15] Delia Lake: ok. even better
[08:15] Delia Lake: next weekend would be good
[08:16] Delia Lake: Let us know when you and Emilia have agreed on a time
[08:17] Delia Lake: Sandy, please?
[08:17] Sandy Burgess: Who is Soro Dagistino
[08:18] Delia Lake: Oh! of course
[08:19] Delia Lake: Soro was a CDS citizen since,...I think 2010, and sat on the Scientific Council, and took a turn as Dean. He died in RL this past August
[08:19] Delia Lake: We will put a photo of him with dates up here on the wall to honor his service
[08:21] Delia Lake: Hopefully next weekend, and we'll post an announcement so people who knew him, and anyone who would like to be here can attend
[08:21] Delia Lake: thank you for asking
[08:21] Sandy Burgess: Thank you
[08:21] Delia Lake: next item on the agenda is about Bots
[08:22] Delia Lake: Over the past few years the CDS has been visited more and more often by bots
[08:23] Delia Lake: While they are ostensibly harmless, and many of them probably are, they are also collecting information about the CDS regions and citizens to a greater or lesser degree
[08:24] Delia Lake: regarding ones that are harmful or annoying, or we just don't know, bots are not covered specifically in the Defense of the Republic Act and probably should be
[08:25] Delia Lake: when the Act was written, this was not really a concern
[08:26] Delia Lake: Just last month though, Chancellor Moon was bothered by a bot, bot3 inshan, that was hanging around LA, coming in and out, in and out, for hours
[08:26] Lilith Ivory: Do we have a written report about that ban?
[08:28] Delia Lake: Moon asked me if she could ban this bot. Although they are not specifically mentioned as I said, this instance did fit under the harassment section of the Defense of the Republic Act. Moon banned the bot and I sent a notecard to it.
[08:29] Delia Lake: I have the notecard but haven't seen any additional report
[08:29] Delia Lake: Neither have I heard anything back from the bot, but given what it is, that's no surprise
[08:29] Delia Lake: I thought I'd passed you the nc but maybe didn't so here it is
[08:30] Callipygian Christensen: I believe LL is currently reviewing it's policies regarding bots gathering information also.
[08:30] Lilith Ivory: I got the note to the bot but the law requires also a written report to the Dean so we can review the ban
[08:30] Delia Lake: Sandy, would you like a copy also?
[08:30] Sandy Burgess: Yes please
[08:31] Delia Lake: I had heard that LL is doing that also
[08:31] Lilith Ivory: as Calli said a few meetings ago: if there is ne written report we need to release the ban if we want to follow the law
[08:31] Lilith Ivory: (not that I am a huge fan of bots)
[08:31] Callipygian Christensen: Perhaps a note to the Chancellor asking that estate managers be reminded of the need to notify the Dean of all bans maade.
[08:31] Delia Lake: yes for sure
[08:32] Lilith Ivory: Not only EMs but also the chancellor as uit seems
[08:33] Delia Lake: while whatever changes to the TOS are made by LL would apply to the CDS as well, I am wondering if we might not want to address this in the Defense of the Republic Act with a modification as well. not this specific incident but to cover bots in general
[08:34] Delia Lake: some thoughts I've had are might it be ok to treat bots differently than regular avatars and just ban them permanently?
[08:35] Callipygian Christensen: I think the simple addition of 'or bot' after any mention of an avatar or user in the Act would cover it
[08:35] Delia Lake: it would be difficult to have a hearing with a non sentient bot
[08:35] Callipygian Christensen: The process shouldnt be any different whether the infringement is human or mechanical imo
[08:35] Lilith Ivory: yes but most bots don't do obvious griefing so it should be adressed why bots get banned
[08:35] Lilith Ivory: or that we just ban bots in general
[08:36] Callipygian Christensen: your letter covers that though - 'if we do not get a response...'
[08:36] Callipygian Christensen: If we DO get a response then we have the avatar behind the bot replying.., if not, the ban is just permanent
[08:37] Delia Lake: another thought is that bots can collect data that is beyond what a visiting avie can harvest
[08:37] Lilith Ivory: which sadly is not against the ToS
[08:37] Delia Lake: and this is done without permission. there is no opt in when a bot comes and wanders
[08:37] Callipygian Christensen: I think if there is to be a ban on bots in total, that must be enacted by RA
[08:38] Delia Lake: yes the RA would have to change the law
[08:38] Lilith Ivory: I agree Calli
[08:38] Lilith Ivory: and Delia
[08:38] Callipygian Christensen: Then it would be added to the information for the regions and banning would not require any action other than recording that it occurred
[08:38] Sandy Burgess: May I speak?
[08:39] Delia Lake: and since we have some responsibilites in the banning process, we might recommend some changes to the RA
[08:39] Delia Lake: yes please Sandy
[08:41] Sandy Burgess: I see three things to consider:
- How can you distinguish a bot from a regular avatar?
- There are legitimate uses for bots. A general ban would disallow those as well.
- When we ban one bot they can simple send another bot. That could result in banning a lot of bots.
[08:41] Callipygian Christensen: May I reply Delia?
[08:42] Delia Lake: yes, of course, Calli
[08:42] Callipygian Christensen: Hi Sandy - a pleasure to see you here today.
[08:42] Callipygian Christensen: I agree with you on all three points you make.
[08:43] Callipygian Christensen: Since upholding bans falls to the SC , our role in this is to suggest where actual banning is concerned - so that is why I think this should go to RA for consideration of how to update the Defence of the Republic act to address bots
[08:44] Callipygian Christensen: That puts things in the order that CDS works through - RA decides what the law should be, the SC monitors that it is applied fairly and consistently
[08:44] Callipygian Christensen: done
[08:44] Sandy Burgess nods. What I wanted to say is that a law for banning bots should be considered carefully and not be a quick shot
[08:45] Lilith Ivory: I totally agree
[08:45] Sandy Burgess: Thank you - I am done.
[08:45] Delia Lake: There are legitimate uses of bots, yes. For instance when I go to a store in sl to purchase something, I assume the owner will be collecting information about me and if I don't want that, I don't have to go there. Often store owners send out a message so people know for sure. but the CDS is where people live. I doubt that citizens want their conversations and actions collected as data to be mined without their permission
[08:47] Sandy Burgess: Not all bots collect data. Some are just support bots that do things that are not possible via lsl ... like eg. sending group invites for closed groups.
[08:48] Sandy Burgess: But that could be part of the law. Something like applying for using a bot for specific reasons.
[08:49] Callipygian Christensen nods. I would expect that RA will take all of those things into consideration in making any decisions - all we can do is recommend that they look at the Act for amendment.
[08:49] Delia Lake: true, and not only would the purpose be in the application but also if someone encounters a bot that bot should be required to let people know how to opt out of any data collection?
[08:50] Sandy Burgess: I live in the EU. I would think the bot should ask for an opt in as is standard here.
[08:50] Callipygian Christensen: (They includes you of course, but I don't want to say 'you' and make it sound like a personal burden )
[08:51] Delia Lake: so, we only have 10 minutes left in this hour. It seems the consensus here today is that the RA should take up a review of CDSL 23-02 to address the issue of bots.
[08:51] Sandy Burgess grins. I see a bit of a discussion coming up
[08:51] Delia Lake: and we should send a note to LRA Almut to that effect, and offer our input regarding our role in banning?
[08:51] Callipygian Christensen: I request that the Dean send a notecard to the LRA requesting such review
[08:52] Delia Lake: lol, great minds once again
[08:52] Lilith Ivory: I agree to that
[08:52] Delia Lake: ok. I will do that
[08:52] Callipygian Christensen: I think our role is defined clearly in the laws. A notecard to the Chancellor asking that EMs be reminded of banning procedures would also be good and I request that the Dean do so
[08:53] Delia Lake: yes I agree and will send a note to Chancellor Moon
[08:55] Delia Lake: We will not get to discuss here today the other item on the agenda which is a review the SC published policies and updating them. We are starting that offline and will post some recommended changes to our SC discussion page about that
[08:56] Delia Lake: before we adjourn, Calli you will let us know about the unveiling of Soro's portrait after you talk with Emilia
[08:57] Callipygian Christensen: I will do so
[08:57] Delia Lake: and when in March would be a good time for our next meeting?
[08:58] Lilith Ivory: so far the CDS calendar is empty on weekends in march but we might want to add a meeting there soon so the time is not taken
[08:58] Lilith Ivory: I am flexible
[08:58] Delia Lake: Calli?
[08:58] Callipygian Christensen: for me I think the 12th or 19th is probably a good target. I wont know when my rl board meeting is until after the 19th of this month though.
[08:59] Delia Lake: 19th is better for me. I'll grab that calendar time for us
[08:59] Lilith Ivory: great
[09:00] Delia Lake: Adjourn? and thank you all
[09:00] Lilith Ivory: I second adjourning
[09:00] Delia Lake: in favor?
[09:00] Lilith Ivory: aye
[09:00] Delia Lake: aye