Reforming the Scientific Council

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Patroklus Murakami
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Reforming the Scientific Council

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

I've posted elsewhere about the Scientific Council's decision not to allow us to cast votes for the Representative Assembly (on the grounds that there are fewer candidates than seats so they all get elected by default). Personally, I think this is *such* a bad decision that the Scientific Council should be impeached and we should start again. But what next? Here are some thoughts on what a successor to the SC might look like.

Selection
The SC is currently a 'self-selected meritocracy' and members are appointed for life. I think it's time to change that! There was a time when SC appointments were ratified by the Representative Assembly, but even that check has been worked around. When Soro Dagostino was appointed to the SC it was the end of a term and the RA was unable to meet to confirm (or deny) the appointment.

We have been moving in the direction of a presidential system for a while so let's borrow some more ideas here. How about reducing the size of the SC to 3, appointing them for 3 year staggered terms and allowing the Chancellor to appoint one member a year (i.e. you replace one every year, the one who has served their three years? We would need a transition period where the SC members were appointed for one year, two years and three years. We would also need to decide on term limits (as for the other branches). I don't personally favour them but two should suffice for those who believe in them. Six years is a long time in SL after all!

Time also to make RA confirmation more than a rubber-stamp and remove the sneaky ability to get round it as one RA leaves office and a new one begins its work. Appointees only become SC members once a majority of RA seats vote for them.

Remit
The current remit is broadly right. The SC should defend the Constitution and act as a brake on the elected chamber when they test the bounds of the Constitution (though they have been woefully inadequate in regard to this task in recent years).

Their other remit is to 'resolve citizen disputes' and provide arbitration. The SC members also moderate these forum. I think forum moderation is fine but the SC does not really do any of the other things and it probably shouldn't. The current SC members don't really have any expertise to resolve disputes or provide arbitration nor should they. There is really no need for a judicial function in SL so let's just get rid of the vestigial parts and have done with it. (We went through the hell of trying to set up a judiciary and, thankfully, abolished it soon after).

Removal
The RA should be able to remove members for office for gross incompetence or failure to uphold the Constitution or some other such grave misdemeanour with a 2/3 majority.

Benefits
Why bother with all of this? Well, I think the current system is unsupportable. Most SC members barely make it inworld (yes, I know. me too!) so they tend to be a bit divorced from the community. They are appointed for life so there is very little of the rotativity which gives the RA and the Chancellor's office regular infusions of fresh blood. It's hardly a great advert for us that such a key Government institution has no democratic legitimacy (go find posts of mine defending this point if you like, I'm sure there are some. I've changed my mind, okay?)

Of course, we could be even *more* radical and directly elect them :)

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Re: Reforming the Scientific Council

Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

Directly electing every possible government position is not necessarily a bright idea; If you can't find any relevant real-world examples you aren't looking hard enough. Naturally, I am biased, but I would point out the basic point of the SC is to be a conservative (in the literal sense) influence to help override the impulse of the mob. Such a thing is necessary in a functional democracy if it's not to be a case of 'the majority shits all over everyone else'.

There is already a mechanism to get rid of SC members. It's called 'impeachment'. Apparently the word scares people, or something.

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Re: Reforming the Scientific Council

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

I'd like to discuss this proposal at the next RA meeting.

This would require a Constitutional Amendment and it would take me a few hours to put together one. I'd like to discuss the principle and, if there is enthusiasm for the idea, I'll draft something specific. It will take four out of five votes to pass so I'm keen to see if there is support on the RA for this before I get drafting.

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Re: Reforming the Scientific Council

Post by Bagheera »

Pat, this is clearly about something you feel is important, reviving this discussion after you've given it 18 months to gestate; so it deserves some meditation and a thoughtful reply.

When I look at the original issue that made you feel the SC was not responding appropriately - that they did not hold an election when there were fewer candidates than seats to be filled. Their position was to follow the procedure of STV which does appear to be the proper procedure, and as Fern wrote in her scenario, all seats would be filled under the STV process:

Let’s say we have an election and I get zero votes. I agree that is a clear indication that my fellow citizens do not wish to see me represent them in the legislative assembly. But, by the rules of STV counting as I read them, I would not be eliminated in the exclusion process because the number of seats exceeds the number of candidates. I read, “4.2 Each subsequent stage of the count is concerned either with the transfer of surplus votes of a candidate whose vote exceeds the quota, or with the exclusion of one or more candidates with the fewest votes,” as a process intended to transfer votes and eliminate those candidates with the fewest votes UP TO THE POINT where candidates = seats. I’m not clear under what circumstances I would not be “elected” even if I should not be, based on the inferred wishes of my neighbours.

But setting aside that they were following the Constitution, I took a look at your position on its own merits. You wrote:

Why is it still important to do this if the result is the same? Well, the result is not the same. If we do not hold an election we will not know who does/does not have electoral support. It is quite possible that some candidates may get no, or very little, support from the electorate. If I were in that position I would consider resigning so that the electorate could choose someone they truly support. We will have to hold a by-election for the vacant seat in any case so this decision would be honourable and not disruptive.

If this outcome were to happen, the "unpopular candidate" would have the choice you present of resigning ... but even you acknowledge that is their choice, not a Constitutional mandate. So, what does happen?

a) They discover they are more unpopular than they thought (or just unknown but it will be judged as unpopularity, not obscurity) and they undergo an emotionally painful travail they really probably don't deserve or expected to sign up for by trying to participate in CDS government.

b) The constituency discovers they received no votes and does what humans are hardwired to do, follow the perceived crowd and lock-step turn their back on getting to know that candidate better, work with that candidate or possibly undermine that candidate when they weigh in on contested issues.

c) The candidate decides everyone is against them and does whatever they want without considering their obligation to the community as an elected official (there are plenty of examples of this in real life).

From a human perspective, I can't really see the value in all this. If this were a scientific study, I could see the appeal, but it is not. It is a human experience, a community experience, and in that context all I can see this doing is polarizing the community and causing dissension and pain.

As for changing the Scientific Council's composition, your idea seems to have been catalyzed by what you deem is their inappropriate handling of the above matter. They may not have handled it perfectly, but they did handle it appropriately, I believe.

Thank you, Pat. It is obvious you care about the community and although I disagree with you, I do so with respect.

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Re: Reforming the Scientific Council

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Hi Bagheera. Thanks for considering this proposal.

I should have been clearer though in reposting this. I'm no longer concerned with the STV issue. That's ancient history now. I stood for election saying I would put this idea forward and I'm just fulfilling that promise.

On the substance of the proposal, I think we should reform the SC. it is a "self selected meritocracy" with inadequate democratic oversight of appointments. I think we should change that. Currently the SC appoints new members and can get round the need for RA approval by doing this in between elections when the RA might not be ready to meet. (This is how Soro was appointed some years ago).

We need a proper method for selection and appointment. I've suggested one method but I'm open to other ideas.

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Re: Reforming the Scientific Council

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

The RA discussed reforming the Scientific Council at its last meeting. The transcript is here.

The RA agreed to continue the discussion on these forums. I'll post some thoughts later, happy to see others posting their views here too.

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Re: Reforming the Scientific Council

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

At yesterday's RA meeting, when we discussed reforming the Scientific Council, Delia suggested that we discuss the purpose of the SC before moving on to structure. Here are a few thoughts on both.

The Constitution says the following about the SC: "Its governmental role is to interpret and enforce the constitution. Its service roll (ed. note: sic) is to resolve citizen disputes and moderate user forums and events." I agree with the first part, but not all of the second.

I see the SC as Constitutional experts who are the final check on the unrestrained power of the legislature (the Representative Assembly). They are there to act as a bulwark against actions that might trample on minority rights in the CDS. Without the SC, the RA would truly be all-powerful. For example it could legislate to proscribe some candidates from standing in elections, or restrict peoples' rights in other ways or vote to amend the Constitution to abolish elections and keep themselves in power forever. The SC is the final guardian of our rights because, in all of those cases, it can intervene to veto such actions. (And please don't think that the RA would never do that, people have tried to do some of this in the past).

I am happy with the SC moderating these forums. This has largely been done well. I think most of us would agree that some light-touch moderation is helpful and the SC are relatively impartial and calm and help to keep threads on track. So far this has mostly involved locking threads for a day or so while people calm down and sanctions against the most extreme personal attacks (such as inviting government officials to drop dead!)

Where I part company with the current description of the SCs functions is where it involves arbitrating in citizen disputes and acting as a quasi-judiciary (beyond the constitutional role outlined above). There really is no need for this in Second Life. What harm can we do each other here? You can't steal other people's property, you can't do anyone physical harm. We can use words to hurt each other and we can use banned devices to push each other around and trap ppl but... you can always log out or tp away from a bad situation. A row really requires two willing participants to take place. We are all adults, we should be able to resolve our disputes ourselves and, where we can't, we can avoid or mute each other. The SC members have a number of skills but I don't see them as skilled conciliators. If people want those services they can find them elsewhere.

Non-citizens are another matter. I'm quite happy for non-citizens who cause a nuisance to be banned and ejected summarily. We can be nice and give them the option to explain themselves. Few griefers will bother to take up the offer.

I think we also need to tackle the 'self-selected meritocracy' and the way that the SC can sneak members in without RA approval if they approve new members at the end of an RA term when it's often difficult to get a quorum. The 'self-selected meritocracy' does not sound right for a democratic community. Now, I understand why it's there - Ulrika wanted to have three branches with different methods for selection. That was why the RA was elected, the SC self-selecting and the old Artisanal Collective (Guild) was open to all. We have changed over time. The AC was abolished and the Chancellor is now directly elected. The RA has been reformed to allow anyone to stand (it used to be faction members only). The SC is the final 'undemocratic' part of our government.

So, here's my proposal for SC reform:

  • i) abolish the current SC. Thank the current members for their service and remove them from office.
    ii) reduce the size of the SC to 3 members and have the Chancellor appoint each member for a 3 year term. I would stagger the terms so that the Chancellor appoints one new member each year (i.e. you replace one every year, the one who has served their three years). In the first year of the reform the Chancellor would appoint the 3 members for one year, two years and three years respectively so that one of the seats become free each year.
    iii) appointees only become SC members once a majority of RA seats vote for them so that the SC can't get round RA approval by appointing them in the gap between RAs (like they did for Soro's appointment).
    iv) maintain the SCs role in defending the Constitution and moderating the CDS forums but remove their role in arbitrating citizen disputes (as they have no expertise and there is no real need for this)
    v) maintain the ability for the RA to remove individual SC members with a 2/3 majority for gross incompetence or failure to uphold the Constitution or some other such grave misdemeanour.

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Re: Reforming the Scientific Council

Post by Gwyneth Llewelyn »

I know I'll be blamed from only chiming in at the most inappropriate times and remain silent for months afterwards :) Well, there is actually a good reason for that; but that's off-topic hehe :)

So hmm. Having the advantage of watching from a very detached position — I post little nowadays; I can hardly make it to the public RA or SC meetings; and I'm not running for any office in the CDS — I can see that this proposal fits quite nicely in what is the "CDS way of solving problems" :) Putting it bluntly (I'm learning with Pat and Beathan!), it looks like a personal peeve turned into legislation. Pat isn't happy with the way Soro was "sneaked in" by the SC (his words, not mine!) and so he proposes to abolish the SC. Simple! Problem solved :)

Now let me explain that I have nothing against Pat's assessment of the situation, and neither have I anything personal against Soro. I also think that there was some "stretching the point" in approving Soro to the SC: it was done legally to the letter of the law, but — from my detached viewpoint — not very much in the spirit of the law. And for the SC, the spirit is often more important than the letter :) (or so it should be) So of course I can also give my personal opinion: since back then it was clear that the RA couldn't meet for good reasons — as opposed to being lazy (after all, they have a minimum number of times they have to meet during a term!) — it would be more gentlemanly to wait for an opportunity for the RA to get a quorum (which, after all, happened shortly afterwards) instead of "pushing Soro through the door", so to speak. But Delia is also right, of course: it's not the SC's fault if the RA failed to meet in due time. In fact, making sure that the RA meets regularly is part of the SC's job.

This is how it looks from my end: a personal disagreement with a person's position is bringing an institutional disagreement, where all sorts of old arguments are thrown back and forth again in order to, well, abolish the SC. This is nothing new. In fact, in most of the cases where the discussion heated up, it tended to be all about personal disagreements. In the rare cases where personal issues were absent, most of the branches tend to get along well, change what's needed, and go ahead in peace.

First things first. There is a "joint RA/SC" committee to analyse the issue and make proposals. This is how it should be. On issues affecting the checks and balances of two bodies of Government, it makes all the sense to get together and discuss and propose something together. Dismissing the committee and do things one-sided at the RA level seems premature. In fact, it would give the SC all the power to actually veto the law :) which is precisely what the proposed changes are supposed to prevent (i.e. constrain the power of the SC even further).

Secondly, I very much dislike the idea of "abolish the SC first, discuss what it should look like afterwards". This is completely antagonistic to the way the check-and-balance system is supposed to work. Between the time the SC gets abolished and something new is invented, the RA has no checks and no balances (they can be vetoed by the Chancellor, yes, but they can also kick the Chancellor out for good measure for trying to intrude :) ): So this is a big no-no. In fact, I might point out how the Old Guild was subtly abandoned and replaced by the Executive: all things were in place when the Old Guild was disbanded, and for years the Constitution and the Code of Laws had wording like: "all the documents referring to powers held by the Guild are to be assumed by the Executive". In fact, the Executive got far more power than what the Old Guild had. But there was no moment in time where "suddenly" there was just a two-branch government while people waited to come up with an idea on what the new Executive should be doing.

I would like to see some argument for reducing the size of the SC. I suppose that the issue is having plenty of available members to run for office on the other two branches, but I'm just speculating. One way to diminish the SC's power is to "water it down" with several experienced Professors (yes, that's how members of the SC are called...) representing opposing views, so it really takes a lot to get them agreeing on very questionable issues. That was the whole point of having a relatively large SC — but not too large to be unmanageable (thus the idea that the number of Chairs — voting members — are limited to nine). In practice, the SC never grew that much, and for long periods of its existence it had less than five members. I don't completely oppose the idea of a 3-member-SC, even though I see that the temptation of having three people with the exact mindset — and one that will not change for years — is too great. The SC is already conservative by nature and design. Restricting the number of different opinions at the SC will make it even more conservative. Unless, of course, I'm missing the whole point.

The issue about how to get new members at the SC definitely requires some rewording, because it's all been very vague... and, for many reasons, deliberately so. Originally nobody could tinker with the way the SC admitted new members. This was more than deliberate, it was a necessity, to make sure that the SC stayed away from power struggles at the RA level and remain as detached and neutral as possible. Obviously the RA could always impeach SC members, and could do so for any reason — a power they never used. Then, because of some unfortunate choices (see, always "personal issues" popping up) it was agreed that at least the RA should have some form of preventing very unpopular members to join the SC — unpopular for the RA, of course. Thus the whole "affirmation" ritual. The whole idea was to strengthen the position of a newly appointed SC member: i.e. showing that the elected representatives are fully behind a new member. This was quickly subverted into "the right of the RA to reject new SC members". From there, we went to "the right of the RA to cross-examine SC members publicly and kick them out if they 'fail' to give appropriate answers". And now comes the proposal for electing them :) In the mean time, any group of 5 citizens can nominate a candidate for the SC... complicating the mess still further.

If the issue is mostly disallowing SC members to get "sneaked in", well, that's easy to fix — there can be a fixed schedule for allowing SC members to be nominated and/or appointed (even though I understand there might exist some emergencies... imagine a Dean leaving SL and the SC been asked to emit an opinion on an urgent matter while having no quorum and being unable to elect a new Dean in a hurry. It's complex).

Now the argumentation for the "self-selected meritocracy" is a very ancient one, and I'm afraid I have been lazy and not be able to find the original arguments on the old LL forums... but it's there, somewhere. I remember — and please don't quote me, I've got a very poor memory — that the argument was something like that: the RA establishes legislation and effectively manages the regions on behalf of the population who elect them. Administrative, daily issues are dealt with an Executive for practical purposes. The SC is... a consulting body. Admission to them is based on merit and knowledge — this mostly means being around for a few years, having passed through several "crisis", and having the required experience to avoid them. So their role is just to watch and observe; and, upon request (which can be automatic, e.g. flagging a bill for review), try to give an objective, neutral, and unbiased opinion. Since it's impossible to be absolutely neutral and unbiased, the solution is to have a consulting body with wildly different opinions and emit a final statement after a vote. It sounded nice in theory. Actually, in practice, it's not been that bad.

The alternative to "self-selection" is, of course, election. But that means that new SC members will be "selected" based on their ability to gather votes — based on their charisma, their appeal, their number of friends — and not based on their merit, knowledge, and ability to deal with tricky and complex legal issues. Note that the RA is never "required" to "know" how to write good laws. Bad laws can always be rewritten later, by a differently elected RA. This is the core of democracy: that the law-makers are not required to be law experts, but just require the will of the people to have them as representatives. And, at the worst case scenario, they can always rely on the SC to review if a law is so poorly written that it breaks the Constitution: we certainly have had tons of cases where, thanks to the SC flagging a law or two for review, catastrophes were averted. In practice, however, the vast majority of all laws simply sail through the SC without a glitch. That's how it should be: the SC should only pay attention to the extreme cases and pretty much ignore everything else.

But how can the SC fulfil that role if they aren't knowledgeable enough to do their job? This is the problem in having two elected bodies, where knowledge is not a requirement for participation — just the popular vote. Under such a model, it's a bit unrealistic to expect that the SC will "catch" any bad mistakes the RA makes, since they are in the position to make that very same mistake on their own. Even on 2-chamber legislatures there is usually always a Constitutional Court, which is usually not elected from the general population, but has some requirements to apply for membership.

Now I realise that this is mostly a cultural thing, and if it's discussed at the RA, it means that the most popular "cultural thing" will win. So the best I can suggest is some sort of compromise: first, let the SC get nominations for candidates. These can come from three sources:

  • From the SC itself;

  • From the RA;

  • From any group of 5 citizens.

Based on that list of candidates, the SC validates the curricula of each of them. So it's pretty much like getting an interview for a job at a university (keeping in mind the old idea that the SC would be modelled after a university's senate or similar ruling body for an academic institution). The validated candidates are then voted upon, by universal suffrage (i.e. basically a yes/no vote).

Why this suggestion? Well, the SC naturally fears an over-powerful RA that selects the SC members and constantly interferes with its composition, and anyone worried about branches getting too much power should worry about a RA being able to select and appoint the people in the branch that is supposed to place checks upon that very same RA. On the other hand, the RA's constant nagging that the SC only picks their own members without supervision means that there has to be a check somewhere, so that SC members are not "sneaked in" at embarrassing moments. The citizens, in general, due to cultural bias, prefer that all branches are subject to election, so this gives them the opportunity to vote. But it keeps the SC's prerogative to decide who is qualified enough to be part of itself. It adds another level of complexity — "oh no, not another change to the voting booths!" (poor Jon!) — but perhaps it's for the best.

This model also disallows further RA/SC bickering on the SC's composition — it's the people that decide who gets in. But the candidates are screened before they're nominated, so, well, it means that the SC doesn't get any "unwanted" names. And the RA is always able to push "political" candidates to be voted upon as new members, making them happy. In fact, to be perfect, this model just has to deal with the nagging details: e.g. how often are candidates allowed to be put up to the vote, how many candidates are allowed to join per election, what happens if the SC is under quorum and desperately needs new candidates but the citizens refuse to vote upon any of the names brought forward, and so forth. In my mind, a model that is sufficiently flexible to allow 1-2 new candidates to join the SC every term from a pool of 4-5 potential names should be more than adequate. How to implement it — I leave the details for further discussion :) (Of course, we can make it easy: have it as part of the general elections, and in cases of emergencies, apply the rules for by-elections that we already have for the RA and the Chancellor).

Then we come to arbitration. I don't buy Pat's theory that "there is no need for arbitration". Just because there haven't been many cases requiring arbitration — and I'm aware that during Soro's term as Dean there were lots and lots of requests for arbitration that were (deliberately?) ignored — that's quite different than saying "there is no need". The Executive, of course, can decide upon issues related to Covenants — which is within their power to do so. But conflicts of interest between different citizens is another story. I'm very much against having the Executive act as the arbitration body as well, except, well, for "police duty" which doesn't require much more than checking if the Covenants are in violation. But it's a completely different story from being accused for doing X and getting a "fair trial" — by the Executive, which is a political body with its own agenda! That's completely off the limits for me. Whoever does arbitration has to be as detached and removed from the political struggles as possible. So far, only the SC fits that role. The now-forever-abolished Judiciary Branch was an alternative solution, but we've dug that can of worms very deeply and nobody wants to reopen it.

So I totally disagree with you on that, Pat. Citizens have left (sometimes returning later...) because there were no arbitration facilities in the CDS (meaning mostly that their requests for arbitration by the SC were ignored). Even bad, unprofessional arbitrators are better than none at all — and even though you claim that the SC has a "number of skills" but not conciliation skills... well... perhaps that should be part of the future list of requirements for nominees to the SC :) I, for one, having been often ignored in my pleas for arbitration, and knowing of a few citizens who suffered far more (and left as a result), I'm completely against having "no arbitration" facilities in the CDS.

I will (mis)quote Calli on this: the SC members pronounce their decisions not because they're nice, charming people whom we all love and adore, and expect them to do nice things on our behalf when we please them. They pronounce decisions, harsh or mild, because it's their job; which they do to the best of their abilities. Constructing an argument based on the "lack of social skills" (or whatever is implied by the sentence "The SC members have a number of skills but I don't see them as skilled conciliators"). It's also a fallacy that people can get those arbitration services "elsewhere" — we're supposed to have our own jurisdiction, right? Why should the SC or the RA or the Executive agree with an arbitration decision taken place "elsewhere", outside our jurisdiction? Of course we could outsource arbitration services from third parties, and I, for one, am not against that (I believe I even had a few concrete examples which I gave in 2007). That's another story.

Saying that, of course I have no problem with the SC moderating the forums, and I totally agree that the RA has to keep the right to impeach SC members (the Constitution even gives the RA the right not to give any reason whatsoever; all they need to do is to put the SC member(s) on an impeachment trial and prove their allegations; while the SC can only impeach RA members on constitutional grounds and none other).

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Re: Reforming the Scientific Council

Post by Cindy Ecksol »

Wow, just like old times! I think I might have to start finding time to hang out with you, Gwyn, if only to hear more about the historical details of the relationship between branches of the CDS government.

Or maybe I should just create a new faction and run for RA next term. Maybe we'll call it the New Reform faction, and take over the RA so we can appoint nice people who we like to the SC. I promise it won't be anything like NuCARE.... :-)

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Re: Reforming the Scientific Council

Post by Gwyneth Llewelyn »

Hehe Cindy. The good news is that you don't even need a faction! :) But you just missed the deadline for announcing your candidacy... haha

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Re: Reforming the Scientific Council

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Gwyn

I want to correct a number of misunderstandings that have crept in here. I don't recognise my proposal in your post outlining your opposition to it.

  • 1. I do not propose abolishing the SC first and then discussing what it should look like afterwards. We are debating what the SC should look like *now* *in this thread*. If and when the RA is prepared to make these changes, the current SC will be abolished but we will make sure there is no period where no SC is in place. We can achieve this very easily by stating that the current SC remains in place until the reforms are voted through, nominations made and the new SC ratified by the RA.

    2. Nomination of SC members. I am not suggesting we elect SC members (I put that at the end of a post as an aside, not as a concrete proposal). I propose that the Chancellor should appoint SC members subject to ratification by the RA. The Chancellor would get to nominate one SC member a year when their term of office came to an end. A 'self-selected meritocracy' is an abomination and we should get rid of it. Just because the current and previous SC members have 'self-selected' a relatively diverse group of people is no guarantee that they will continue to do so. Without adequate oversight it is quite possible for them to recruit in their own image and end up with a narrow, cliquey power bloc that is difficult to shift. Giving the power to the Chancellor to appoint SC members is rather like the US President having the right to appoint Justices to the Supreme Court. It could even be an election issue - 'vote for me and I will appoint x to the SC' - which would give the voters some leeway in an otherwise opaque process.

    3. Arbitration. I put forward reasons why I don't think the SC should be resolving personal disputes. In what cases do you think SC arbitration is necessary? We clearly need the SC to check that the Constitution has been upheld; ratify bills or return them to the RA for reconsideration; determine voting and candidacy eligibility where there is a dispute. But what else? If Beathan and I have a flaming row and I call him all the names under the sun, whose business is it except mine and his? What is the SC supposed to do here that would have a more beneficial effect than saying "you two need to grow up" and letting everyone draw their own conclusions? I do not see how 'bad, unprofessional arbitrators' could be better than none at all. Entirely the opposite is true!

As there seems to be some will to consider this further I will draw up some proposals for Bills and Constitutional Amendments to reform the SC. I've already spoken to Calli and there is a fair degree of common ground on a number of issues (though not all). I'm prepared to concede, for example, that five members would be better than three due to the nature of SL where people can be out of action/ unable to log in at times.

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Re: Reforming the Scientific Council

Post by Beathan »

Proposal for Reform of the SC and Judicial Function.

Unlike the structural concerns of others, my concern with the SC is largely a process concern. I also think it is critical that we have a mechanism for resolving disputes in our community – both official or public disputes and private disputes – and that this mechanism involve a fair and open process. However, I think that the transfer of this function wholesale to the SC has stressed the SC and has fractured its self-conception and purpose, adding an irreducibly practical function to its original theoretical function.

To that end, I would propose the following.
Private disputes and public disputes not involving the Chancellor or an official appointed by the Chancellor shall be decided at a hearing in which the Chancellor, or an official appointed by the Chancellor as hearing examiner, under the existing statutory hearing procedure (which shall be modified to change the decisionmaker from the SC to the Executive). If the Chancellor appoints a deputy or deputies as hearing examiners, those appointments shall be general (as opposed to having such appointments made on a hearing-by-hearing basis). Further, the RA shall develop conflict of interest rules for such hearing examiners.

Decisions may involve monetary penalties, which can be collected over time through an increase the judgment debtors tier payments. If the monetary penalty is considered an award to an individual, it shall be credited to the tier payments due from that individual when paid by the judgment debtor. (I don’t know if this process is even possible. Sudane can ring in here.)

Any dispute involving the Chancellor or an official appointed by the Chancellor shall be decided at a hearing in the RA under the rules of impeachment, but the RA shall have broad discretion to fashion a remedy in such hearings.

All hearings, either by the Executive or the RA, shall be public and the decision shall be published. The decisions shall have precedential effect, which shall provide for the creation of a body of Common Law. That is, future decisions shall comport with past decisions unless the applicable law has been changed. The RA may change the precedential effect of such decisions through appropriate legislation (which shall state that it overturns the precedential effect of a decision and shall state a new rule to govern future cases). However, the RA may not overturn or invalidate the specific outcome of any particular case. RA legislation in response to cases shall be general and prospective only.

Appeals, both from Executive hearings and from RA hearings, shall be to the SC, but the SC appeal shall be limited to Constitutional or Statutory questions or arguments. That is, the SC shall determine whether or not a decision violates some Constitutional rule or Statutory provision. If the decision violates somesuch rule, the SC shall reverse the decision and remand it for a rehearing (if necessary) and new decision. Such a reversal shall specifically state what provision was violated and how.

With regard to the structure of the SC--

1. No member of the SC should take a seat without specific approval of the RA. The onus should be on the person seeking such appointment get RA approval. It should not be on the RA to act. The current rule allows for unseemly gamesmanship in appointment SC members.

2. The SC should not be limited to 3 members. If the number of SC members is limited, I would say “no less than 5 and no more than 7.” I am not sure how to handle situations in which the SC has fewer than 5 volunteers, but as the RA is largely out of the process, I would suggest filling vacant seats with the LRA, then the vice LRA, then other RA members.

Beathan

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Re: Reforming the Scientific Council

Post by Gwyneth Llewelyn »

Pat: I stand corrected :) Thank you so much for your clarification!

1. I read that wrongly to imply "abolish first, discuss later". I'm very glad it's not the case!

2. I totally disagree :) Sorry, but I'm just being honest. Having the Executive select members for a branch that oversees the Executive is a no-no, i.e. the same argument goes for RA members nominating SC members. That's even sillier than the "abomination" you're so culturally conditioned to be against :)

So I'm not completely against having SC members elected by the general population, so long as the candidates are qualified to become members. Who decides who is qualified or not? The SC. Who nominates them? SC, RA, and groups of 5 citizens. Who votes them in? Each and every citizen. This allows for the SC to make sure that all candidates have the required qualifications (so it's still a meritocracy) but allows the general public to have a saying, e.g. they can reject all candidates if they don't like them... :)

3. Here are a few examples (I agree that we need to have an idea of what the SC is supposed to be arbitrating, or else one might conclude that there are no reasons whatsoever!). I agree that most arbitration needs are "citizens vs. government".

- Citizen disagrees with Exec's interpretation of a Covenant
- Citizen announces an event at the same time that the PIO has announced another one, and now goes to remove the citizen's event. To whom goes the complain? (The Chancellor, of course, will protect the PIO)
- Due to misinterpreted wordings or bad postings or loss of notecards, a citizen is prevented from announcing their candidacy and/or to vote
- Conflicts about paying tier, or reservations of the same parcel by two citizens
- Citizen using loopholes to get an advantage on their land over their neighbour (say, skybox overlapping land or so) and Executive ignoring the issue
- Citizen submitting proposals to the RA which get deliberately ignored by the LRA
- Citizen getting no chance to speak at the RA, or their forum posts being deleted by a moderator

You can see what I'm aiming at.

I also don't understand why you think that interpersonal conflicts between citizens should not be arbitrated at all... :( I think that the right to not be subject to libel and defamation in public, and requiring another to retract their words and offer an apology, is well within the goals of having some form of arbitration. But ok, I also see your point to a degree... it can become even more mesy if done wrongly. But is it better not to have any chance to get some fair arbitration, even if badly done?

Beathan's argument is: we need a Judiciary and that Judiciary should not be the SC! Heh. Ashcroft would be proud of you, Beathan ;) You know, I actually agree with you :-) The only thing I disagree is that it should be the Chancellor providing arbitration and have the RA decide if there is a conflict of interest or not... *sigh*... this just sounds like paranoia to me, i.e. mistrusting the SC "just because it's the SC" but wholeheartedly trusting whoever the Chancellor appoints, because, well, it's the Chancellor. Why is there this misconception that a Chancellor is inherently more trustworthy than a body of people with vast experience about the SC and its history and is neutral, unbiased, and detached from political struggles? And when the issue is with the Chancellor... then the RA leads the arbitration process? Oh so messy! If the issue is against the Chancellor AND the RA, then who arbitrates? :-) (Note that we have always had provisions for handling issues against specific members of the SC, or all of them at the same time — it's called "impeachment procedure" :) )

Again, the argument for having an independent Judiciary/arbitration facilities — independent from all three branches, that is — was well made by Ashcroft in 2007... shall we open that can of worms again, after all?

On the other hand, I'm all in favour of defining what "fines" can be applied. Again, we can simply take a look at the old Judiciary Branch, which attempted to define those as well.

As for the rest of Beathan's suggestions...

1. No member of a branch shall be appointed by any other branch :) specially when that branch is supposed to oversee the work of the first one... We had an exception to that rule, when the Chancellor was elected by the RA. The current model is far more logical! Again, being "afraid" that the SC isn't willing to do what the RA wants — acting independently — is the whole purpose of having a three-branch government with mutual checks and balances. So under your proposed model, if the RA is enacting a series of democracy-threatening laws (which they're always attempting to do hehe), and the SC tries to stop that, the RA just elects new SC members, and finito — problem solve. No, I cannot even remotely agree with that model. There is just a perception of current "gamesmanship" at the SC if the current RA has exactly in mind to subvert the whole democratic process and hack and slash at the Constitution, and is "afraid" that the current SC will make every effort to prevent that from happening. Which they will. An RA not intending to overthrow democracy has no need to "fear" the SC, as the SC can only pronounce things as unconstitutional and nothing else. If the SC oversteps their power — vetoing at a whim without a constitutional reason for doing so — then the RA should impeach the SC members abusing their power (assuming that a complain to the Dean is ignored).

2. It's hard to enforce the "no less than 5" members but I see your point. Having at least X members — hopefully more than just 3 — is a good goal to set. But is it a reasonable one? Looking at our history, I would think not, but I'm definitely not "against" that rule. I just think that it will be revised every term or so :) Not that constantly revising the number of members is a bad idea, although sudden reductions might be disturbing if the SC has to kick a few members out if they have too many... which would be sad...

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Re: Reforming the Scientific Council

Post by Beathan »

Gwyneth Llewelyn wrote:

Pat: I stand corrected :)
1. No member of a branch shall be appointed by any other branch :) specially when that branch is supposed to oversee the work of the first one... We had an exception to that rule, when the Chancellor was elected by the RA. The current model is far more logical! Again, being "afraid" that the SC isn't willing to do what the RA wants — acting independently — is the whole purpose of having a three-branch government with mutual checks and balances. So under your proposed model, if the RA is enacting a series of democracy-threatening laws (which they're always attempting to do hehe), and the SC tries to stop that, the RA just elects new SC members, and finito — problem solve. No, I cannot even remotely agree with that model. There is just a perception of current "gamesmanship" at the SC if the current RA has exactly in mind to subvert the whole democratic process and hack and slash at the Constitution, and is "afraid" that the current SC will make every effort to prevent that from happening. Which they will. An RA not intending to overthrow democracy has no need to "fear" the SC, as the SC can only pronounce things as unconstitutional and nothing else. If the SC oversteps their power — vetoing at a whim without a constitutional reason for doing so — then the RA should impeach the SC members abusing their power (assuming that a complain to the Dean is ignored).

Gwyn,

I should have made a point clear. I don't support continuing oversight of the SC by the RA, or the ability of the RA to replace the SC. I just support an initial gatekeeping function. Once an appointment is approved, that member of the SC should be independent. For that reason, I don't support term limits for the SC or any removal process for the SC (except impeachment, which should be a high bar). I think that the problem you identify here does not arise if the only RA involvement is initial approval. I do think that there needs to be some approval process for the SC other than self-appointment. The other branches are approved by election, which is consistent with our democracy. Requiring that the SC be approved by selection and approval by an elected body preserves our democracy. Any other process subverts it.

Beathan

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Re: Reforming the Scientific Council

Post by Callipygian »

Patroklus Murakami wrote:

Gwyn

I want to correct a number of misunderstandings that have crept in here. I don't recognise my proposal in your post outlining your opposition to it.

  • 1. I do not propose abolishing the SC first and then discussing what it should look like afterwards. We are debating what the SC should look like *now* *in this thread*. If and when the RA is prepared to make these changes, the current SC will be abolished but we will make sure there is no period where no SC is in place. We can achieve this very easily by stating that the current SC remains in place until the reforms are voted through, nominations made and the new SC ratified by the RA.

    2. Nomination of SC members. I am not suggesting we elect SC members (I put that at the end of a post as an aside, not as a concrete proposal). I propose that the Chancellor should appoint SC members subject to ratification by the RA. The Chancellor would get to nominate one SC member a year when their term of office came to an end. A 'self-selected meritocracy' is an abomination and we should get rid of it. Just because the current and previous SC members have 'self-selected' a relatively diverse group of people is no guarantee that they will continue to do so. Without adequate oversight it is quite possible for them to recruit in their own image and end up with a narrow, cliquey power bloc that is difficult to shift. Giving the power to the Chancellor to appoint SC members is rather like the US President having the right to appoint Justices to the Supreme Court. It could even be an election issue - 'vote for me and I will appoint x to the SC' - which would give the voters some leeway in an otherwise opaque process.

    3. Arbitration. I put forward reasons why I don't think the SC should be resolving personal disputes. In what cases do you think SC arbitration is necessary? We clearly need the SC to check that the Constitution has been upheld; ratify bills or return them to the RA for reconsideration; determine voting and candidacy eligibility where there is a dispute. But what else? If Beathan and I have a flaming row and I call him all the names under the sun, whose business is it except mine and his? What is the SC supposed to do here that would have a more beneficial effect than saying "you two need to grow up" and letting everyone draw their own conclusions? I do not see how 'bad, unprofessional arbitrators' could be better than none at all. Entirely the opposite is true!

As there seems to be some will to consider this further I will draw up some proposals for Bills and Constitutional Amendments to reform the SC. I've already spoken to Calli and there is a fair degree of common ground on a number of issues (though not all). I'm prepared to concede, for example, that five members would be better than three due to the nature of SL where people can be out of action/ unable to log in at times.

RL volunteer commitments around issues just as contentious as this are really eating up my time, so I am going to reply to this but include some comments related to earlier posts in the thread. I also realize there may be a tendency to read what I write as 'she is just trying to protect her 'job'; if that is believed, no way for me to change it, but I can say this would be my reaction as an ordinary citizen as well. I will also state yet again that I am totally in support of SC reform, but want it to be good reform that puts reasoned and objective support of the Constitution front and centre.

replying to point 1: While your proposal has a new SC in place as you wave the old one off into the sunset, that does *not* address a large number of legislated duties and procedures that are currently all over the place in the archives and often contradictory or impossible/impractical to carry out. I quote from the RA meeting:

Callipygian Christensen: Pat, I thin you would be surised now much some areas of our views agree, however putting what you have forward conerns me as yet another 'bandaid' that fixes the surface but doesnt deal with what is underneath
Patroklus Murakami: i disagree. i think it's a pretty clear, comprehensive reform. there are other issues around SC procedures which im less interested in. i see those as being for the SC to sort out
Callipygian Christensen: There is a history of that happening in a lot of areas - action A looks great, but the ramifications of it show up later..its happened in elections, in citizenship.its a large part of*why* the SC needs reform to fix previous 'fixes'

That you are less interested in the rest of the process does not lessen the need for it to be done as *part* of the reform process. If you succeed in creating a totally new, appointed SC at least have them start out with a clear set of duties and processes to achieve them.

replying to point 2: Using the US Presidential appointments to the Supreme Court as your example here is, to me, a very strong arguement *against* following that pattern. Presidents nominate Supreme Court justices that tend to concur with that President's political and constitutional philosophy- it's the one shot a President HAS to reshape how the Constitution is interpreted at the highest levels. A President who gets to nominate one or more Justices has won a jackpot of sorts in that regard. It is also why the Senate Judiciary Committee that conducts the hearings for those nominations is busy investigating every aspect of the nominee's life, both professional and private - the President is *expected* to nominate with his political biases in place.

Instead, consider the reason a self-selecting meritocracy was chosen - it was modeled (I believe, and some of the founder types floating around can correct me if I am wrong) on the university system of meritocracy and tenure. The vision was to have a 'faculty' of Dean, Chairs and Professors all with expertise in their own field - Commerce, Law, Marketing and so on. They were to uphold the Constitution, but not 'to the letter'..they were to approach it philosophically and apply their knowledge and experience to come to decisions that might bend the Constitution here and there, but always for the greater good of the community.

Not surprisingly, that philosophical interpretation aspect was removed - while that also removed the need for experts in multiple fields - and the size of the population has never supported a raft of 9 Chairs and multiple Professors- that structure is still on the books, but has really never been the actual way the SC looks and works.

The other purpose of meritocracy and tenure though, was to ensure that people could be appointed not through popularity, not through similarity of thinking, but through 'merit' - in the case of the SC that has traditionally been a length of time in the community, having held RA or Executive positions, and/or having a body of writing or documented speech that indicated a knowledge of the Constitution and Founding Philosophy and a willingness to approach the role objectively. (As a point of interest, one SC member abstained from voting on my appointment for exactly that reason - they did not know me inworld and had no body of posts on the Forums to judge by). Tenure, traditionally, was the protection that allowed controversial and critical dialogue and debate to occur without fear that the mob with the pitchforks could oust you for a more amenable and compliant member. In the case of the SC, that would translate as 'it's safe to make an unpopular decision as long as you believe it to be the right decision and can support that belief with a rationale based on the Constitution and laws of the CDS'.

From the same founding philosophy came the idea of RA affirming an SC candidate - Gwyn gives a good 'where it started to where it is now' in her post - but affirm did not mean 'grill about anything and everything and veto if we don't like the answers'. In effect, having RA approval as a *requirement* for an appointment puts the fox in charge of the chicken coop. Since the SC is meant to be the Constitutional check and balance to the power of the RA, allowing the RA the final say on who watches over them seems a little to risk that they will approve "in their own image and end up with a narrow, cliquey power bloc" , to borrow from your description back there

RA affirmation should only allow questioning regarding views on the Constitution and laws - and any move to veto an appointment should be based on a lack of knowledge of those documents, a history of ignoring them or stating that they should be ignored and/or an inability to commit to objective examination of issues that come before the body of the SC. If you allow a veto on the grounds of 'I disagree with them' or with no rationale given at all you are merely replacing the SC appointment process with a RA appointment process - and leaving all the pitfalls and problems you perceive in that. While the answer may be 'yes, but the RA is elected..and if they make bad decisions they wont get reelected' - let's be frank here. CDS can barely fill it's RA seats, half the citizenry doesn't vote, more than half pay little attention to what is actually done by RA or the SC. The whole point of an objective body to oversee the Constitution in pretty much any democracy is because 'the people' don't pay much attention. I believe it's my job,and yours (you being all of RA, not just you Pat :) to take that into account when proposing and passing any reform.

In addition I find it a contradiction that six months ago a Chancellor's ability to be objective about hiring people where minimal stipends were involved was causing a major hue and cry, yet here we are suggesting a Chancellor will be objective enough to appoint those who uphold the Constitution and laws. The suggestion that a Chancellor use 'Ill appoint X to the SC' as a campaign promise makes my jaw drop. If what you want is universal suffrage..every position in the CDS an elected one..say so. Perhaps that is even what the people want, but if that is the case, then reference to the founding philosophy and documents should be removed from the Constitution imo, because what they say and stand for is no longer part of CDS democracy.

My thoughts on arbitration will have to wait since I have run out of RL time to be writing here. I'll post those in a reply to Beathan's post on arbitration, mainly because he's put forward an extensive outline - some of which I agree with, some of which I disagree with totally. Plus ca change :)

Pat, I have also been drafting reform wording and rationales. I still suggest we find time to put those documents side by side and prepare a joint proposal for reform. Since we clearly will not come to agreement on *how* the SC is selected, it may make sense to separate that from the bulk of reform and present the proposed legislation in 2 parts - what the SC does and how it does it should be the same no matter how the members are chosen.

Calli

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