RA proposal #1 - Rathaus Stay of execution

[Han Held]

I would post this in RA discussions, but I do not have the required permissions to post in that forum. I will have to write my proposals in General, instead.

I am officially requesting of Gaius that the RA review and vote on the following proposal either in our next meeting, or have an emergency vote on it:

The Rathaus Consideration act of 2017
Background;

Tor Karlsvalt, Chancellor of the CDS; has either requested or authorized the replacement of the Rathaus in Neufreistadt. He has done this without consent of the RA, and without feedback from the citizenry. Regardless of legal authority, making this drastic change unilaterally, goes against the democratic spirit of the CDS, where everyone's feedback must be solicited.

The Rathaus in the center of Neufreistadt is a historic build which goes back to our days as Neualtenburg. The story of it's creation and first use has value as a 'conversation piece' and is unique which makes it useful in promoting the CDS.

The Rathaus is an integral part of the Neufreistadt Marketplatz and due to it's history and due it's inability to be preserved, needs to be handled carefully and any decisions regarding it must be made with the consent of both the citizenry and the Representative Assembly.

Proposal:
The RA will forbid the Chancellor from taking any actions which affect the integrity of Kendra Bancroft's "Rathaus" building until the following conditions are met:

1) That the RA discusses the issue and votes in favor of this replacement

2) That no sooner than April 15th, a survey will be taken of the populace asking for feedback on the question of replacing the Rathaus

3) That no less than 80% of our current citizens respond to the survey outlined in item number 2.

If the RA does not vote in favor of replacement, or if the citizenry does not vote in favor of replacing the Rathaus, or if less than 80% of the citizenry does not take the survey, then the Chancellor will be required to leave the Kendra Bancroft Rathaus intact.

[Han Held]

Also, I'd like my comrades in the RA to email me so that I have your current email addresses -thanks!
hanheld ATSIGN yahoo.com

[Callipygian]

The permissions are now updated so you can post to the RA Discussion Forum, Han - and for anyone finding they can't post to a forum they should have access too, just message an SC member and ask to have it fixed

Han, I have also copied the topic to RA Discussions for you, so that RA members can discuss in their own space.

[Widget Whiteberry]

Han - You seem to be advocating for a law that limits the authority of the Chancellor and expanding the authority of the RA. That the Chancellor — in advance of consulting with either the Guild or the LUC — come to the RA for permission to look into changing any existing public structure in CDS. Nothing in my read of our constitution suggests that the RA has this authority. Granted, the language of the constitution is not always clear.

As an alternative, I for one would be interested to learn more about their thinking from Chancellor Tor and the Guild at the next meeting of the RA.

Section 2 – Powers of the Chancellor

The Chancellor of CDS shall, subject to the laws of CDS, have the power:

(b) to expend monies held by the Office of the Chancellor of CDS for the administration and management of public facilities (including, but not limited to, roadways, signage, public buildings, public events and similar), and to discharge any other duties or powers of the Office of the Chancellor conferred by this Act or any other Act of the Representative Assembly;

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

3) That no less than 80% of our current citizens respond to the survey outlined in item number 2.

This part troubles me. I realize I am new to this community and still learning how the government works, however, I am also an attorney in RL and believe I can interpret written laws as well as the next person. I have read the Constitution and Code of Laws, and did not see where this type of minimum participation is required. It seems to me that in a democracy, if a citizen vote was found to be appropriate (a separate issue), then a majority vote should suffice, with no requirement that a minimum number of voters participate. Can someone point me to where this can be found? I am very interested in how the CDS government works.

(I know that the wording was for there to be a "survey" rather than a "vote", but it seems like the same thing in this instance, given the later wording "or if the citizenry does not vote in favor of replacing the Rathaus.")

[Han Held]

3) That no less than 80% of our current citizens respond to the survey outlined in item number 2.

This part troubles me. I realize I am new to this community and still learning how the government works, however, I am also an attorney in RL and believe I can interpret written laws as well as the next person. I have read the Constitution and Code of Laws, and did not see where this type of minimum participation is required. It seems to me that in a democracy, if a citizen vote was found to be appropriate (a separate issue), then a majority vote should suffice, with no requirement that a minimum number of voters participate. Can someone point me to where this can be found? I am very interested in how the CDS government works.

(I know that the wording was for there to be a "survey" rather than a "vote", but it seems like the same thing in this instance, given the later wording "or if the citizenry does not vote in favor of replacing the Rathaus.")

It's neither required, but there's nothing in the constitution that I'm aware of that would forbid requiring it, either.

I put that clause in there because out of ~63 people here we have roughly 15, maybe 20 who participate regularly (including vote) -and I feel that in a case such as this that number does not reflect the opinion of the remaining 50-odd citizens.

I'd be happy to entertain alternate suggestions that address and solve that problem and change the proposal to fit whatever solution we find. But for now, that's the best solution I can think of.

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

It seems that if the other 50 citizens you speak of wish to have their opinions known, they are free to vote just like everyone else. If they choose not to do so, should their choice to abstain void the votes of the 15 or 20 who did bother to participate? In other CDS elections, is this how it's done? For instance, how many people are required to vote for RA elections or to choose a Chancellor? Is there a minimum? (I honestly do not know.)

I don't understand making a requirement that seems destined to fail. I don't see "reflecting the opinions of the others" as an issue, if they have the option to vote and speak for themselves.

[Han Held]

It seems that if the other 50 citizens you speak of wish to have their opinions known, they are free to vote just like everyone else. If they choose not to do so, should their choice to abstain void the votes of the 15 or 20 who did bother to participate? In other CDS elections, is this how it's done?

No, it isn't.

For instance, how many people are required to vote for RA elections or to choose a Chancellor? Is there a minimum? (I honestly do not know.)

We haven't had elections for the RA in some time ...precisely because of low participation. Otherwise no, there isn't a minimum.

I don't understand making a requirement that seems destined to fail. I don't see "reflecting the opinions of the others" as an issue, if they have the option to vote and speak for themselves.

Forcing a minimum number forces a campaign (I would and others on my side would have to do outreach; Tor and his side would have to as well) which hopefully would serve to remind people that we DO live in a democracy and that they should participate and that they can and do make a difference in how the CDS is run. I can see the flaws in that thinking --but again, I see the problem but not a lot of solutions.

That said, this might not be the best hill to die on -I can see your point. Tan has already expressed that the idea is weird. I'm waiting for more feedback before I remove that clause, though. It's looking likely that I'll have to, however.

We've been accused of being the 'maypole nine' by trolls who say that we're a secret conspiracy to shut others out. I'm coming from this issue (exclusivity) from the other side ...I see the metaphorical 'maypole nine' being the folks who are willing to step forward and take part, ...and I'd love to see everyone around that maypole; at least for issues that affect us in the long term (as this issue will).

I simply don't know how to get there.

Obviously folks have the right to sit on their hands -but if there's ideas to encourage them to speak up and to participate then we need to throw it out there.

[edit]I may not have made myself clear (I am not any sort of legal anything -I just play one in SL); what is being proposed affects the face of the CDS, and also impacts the ability of current and future citizens to experience or visit a site that goes back to the earliest days of Neualtenburg. To me, this has longer-term impact than most of our elections because of the long-term nature of it. For that reason, I believe that it's important to get the most feedback possible, and to only go forward once consensus is reached.

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

Thank you for considering my questions and your replies, Han. I really do appreciate it. I don't know anything about a "maypole nine", but I guess it's obvious that I don't intend to be one of those non-participating citizens, and that I'm not afraid to ask questions.

Ideally, rather than "sides", I'd like to see some sort of compromise reached where the interests of keeping the Platz lively and updated co-exist with the interests of preserving the long and rich history of CDS. Personally, I'd love to see an area dedicated to just that; a history museum of sorts, perhaps housed somewhere in an old build like the Rathaus. Not on the Platz, because I think a fresher look there would not be a bad idea at all, but somewhere where there are more prims and some open space available. Perhaps Friedsee? I don't know what is there and what is allowed to *be* there. But you get the idea.

[Han Held]

Thank you for considering my questions and your replies, Han. I really do appreciate it. I don't know anything about a "maypole nine", but I guess it's obvious that I don't intend to be one of those non-participating citizens, and that I'm not afraid to ask questions.

That's very appreciated! The 'maypole nine' nonsense was just that...tinfoil hat idiocy that I've re-purposed.

I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I try and if I can help in any way or offer any insights ...here or inworld... I'd love to.

Ideally, rather than "sides", I'd like to see some sort of compromise reached where the interests of keeping the Platz lively and updated co-exist with the interests of preserving the long and rich history of CDS. Personally, I'd love to see an area dedicated to just that; a history museum of sorts, perhaps housed somewhere in an old build like the Rathaus. Not on the Platz, because I think a fresher look there would not be a bad idea at all, but somewhere where there are more prims and some open space available. Perhaps Friedsee? I don't know what is there and what is allowed to *be* there. But you get the idea.

I created 'the monster fach' (behind the rathaus) with the idea of having it be a museum; but then realized that it would create a ton of issues (IP, for instance) which I probably don't want to deal with. So I would definitely be on board and supportive of creating some sort of alternate space that is set up to act as a museum. Ideally, a living museum (eg being able to actually walk inside the rathaus, sit down etc) in the sky somewhere.

Friedsee is largely residential and intended to generate revenue for the CDS, ditto for Alpine Meadow and Locus Amoneus. It might be possible (with Arria's blessing) to do a sky build in Monastery, but there might not be enough prims. I don't think it would be appropriate to do a NFS museum in Colonia Nova; but a Colonia Nova sky museum might be a good idea (even after two years, I'm not as familiar with CN as I ought to be -so I'm not sure what there is to preserve or exhibit).

My first choice for any sort of museum would be to have a larger area set out that is a reproduction of the marketplatz in the past (no specific year -but with items up to 2009 or 2011); complete with the old cobblestone texture and framed with a wrap-around photo(s) that gives the illusion of being on the ground. We could have diane's fachs set out to frame the square.

I'll set up a quick display in the sky of Funadama to show what I mean when I come home tonight and I'll post the SLURL. It will -of course, be far from accurate; but it'll show what I am trying to describe. I'll also post an estimate of the prims we'd need (based on my exhibit).

That's my first choice -my second choice for a museum would be to use the exterior that Lilith mentioned and recreate the rest of the Rathus and have a sky build (again with a surround photo) that people could visit. I'll make a rough proof-of-concept build in Funadama which will show what I propose, and post the SLURL here when it's done.

It's a given that I'd strongly prefer to keep the Rathaus as it is, now. But I'm willing to compromise as long as there is some sort of site inside the CDS which folks can visit in person (avatar, whatever...) and interact with.

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

One great thing about a history museum is that it doesn't have to take up a ton of prims. A good many things can be exhibited in the form of photos, and then there are posters from past events, old party pics, etc. to give the display life while not being prim-eating at all. I'm picturing in my head the History Pavilion that I put together with Marianne McCann in Bay City. It's like you said, a place where people can actually roam around inside, and has photos and posters and stuff, a lot of which came from past SLB exhibits. It's proven to be pretty popular, so hopefully something like that is possible here as well.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/torley/24666737210

https://www.flickr.com/photos/torley/24844398342

https://www.flickr.com/photos/torley/24936012116

[Rosie Gray]

I think that the history can be preserved, as Sylvia said, with pictures and notecards explaining the original build, and naming the builder with whatever other information deemed appropriate. When I remade the Kirche there was a similar discussion, and so what I did was create a display in the attic that shows the old Kirche, and also the influence of the RL Kirche that I based the existing one on.

When I first came to live in the CDS in 2010, I appreciated the already long history of the community, but I must say that I found some of the old buildings extremely outdated and unattractive. I made it my mission to rebuild the Kirche as it was right on the platz and was a part of the first impressions many new people to our regions receive. Really I couldn't even stand to look at it - I found it quite an embarrassment for the group. The old one, while held fondly by some people in their memories, was really not made very well. It had floating walls and big gaps, the roof was really only a 'suggestion' of an actual roof, the texturing was poor, and it just didn't do any justice to the platz. I like to think that the current one that I built in 2011 was a big improvement. I expect at some point someone new will come along and want to rebuild it too, adding details that I could only dream about. That's okay... a community, in my opinion should keep true to itself, but should be a place for living and making use of the best features of SL to keep vibrant, interesting, and worthwhile as a place that new people would find attractive to settle in. I love the NFS platz and always have, but I really, really, think that things must be updated from time to time, especially when something existing becomes hopelessly outdated. I think that time is well past for the old Rathaus.

If you examine the Rathaus, you will note a number of unsatisfactory things about it - unsatisfactory by today's standards I mean: the textures are odd sizes and don't always rez well, the walls don't meet properly and the edges aren't textured and stick out. The main facade of the building, while fine when it was built is not very acceptable now for a main platz building. There is no '3D' aspect to the windows or arches. Alpha textures interfere with each other and you can look through the edges of the front wall. The staircase is 25 prims alone and the texture on the ceiling is stretched out of shape. The main part of the building is 42 LI, for something that made exactly the same way now you could do with about 10 LI or less. I could go on but I'm sure you understand my point.

[Han Held]

I understand your point, but I disagree -strongly.

Pictures and notecards are not living history, and technical merits aren't the only ones that matter.

We have plenty of other spaces to fill with modern builds, there's no need and it is undesireable to rip up historic builds simply because "they're ugly" or "they're old" -as for prims, we have over 3k in the land group; we can spare the odd 25li here and there.

Keeping the old and building alongside of it shows both our history and the progress that virtual worlds have made in terms of building techniques, etc. It allows people to experience where we've come from, and to better appreciate where we are now.

When it comes to history, there is no substitute for going to the places where things happened -the original places, not re-creations. We need to preserve the Rathaus in order for future citizens to be able to go where the first meetings were held; once it's returned, that is not possible.

Tearing out the Rathaus wholesale just for the sake of tearing the Rathaus out wholesale is a bad decision ...particularly if there is not a living, interactive way to preserve the old build. It's a step that does not need to be taken, it is a step that should not be taken.

[Han Held]

I'm picturing in my head the History Pavilion that I put together with Marianne McCann in Bay City. It's like you said, a place where people can actually roam around inside, and has photos and posters and stuff, a lot of which came from past SLB exhibits. It's proven to be pretty popular, so hopefully something like that is possible here as well.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/torley/24666737210

https://www.flickr.com/photos/torley/24844398342

https://www.flickr.com/photos/torley/24936012116

I'm not familiar with it, so I'll have to check it out. The closer we get to interacting with the original build, in the original place ...the better, in my mind. The further we get, the worse; and if we just have five photos and a couple of notecards -we might as well not even bother.

If we weren't a group that so loudly prides itself on it's history, I might not be as strident. But we are, so I am.

[Han Held]

My first choice for any sort of museum would be to have a larger area set out that is a reproduction of the marketplatz in the past (no specific year -but with items up to 2009 or 2011); complete with the old cobblestone texture and framed with a wrap-around photo(s) that gives the illusion of being on the ground. We could have diane's fachs set out to frame the square.

I'll set up a quick display in the sky of Funadama to show what I mean when I come home tonight and I'll post the SLURL. It will -of course, be far from accurate; but it'll show what I am trying to describe. I'll also post an estimate of the prims we'd need (based on my exhibit).

Ok, scratch this -I didn't consider something important: in order to have the fachs out, they would overlap onto private parcels. For obvious reasons, that would be unacceptable.