The next General Meeting of the CSDF will be on Friday 1 Dec at 3pm.
Location: The Red House on the Lowland Road, Neufreistadt.
Please add suggested agenda items to this forum thread.
This is an open meeting so all are welcome to attend
Moderator: SC Moderators
The next General Meeting of the CSDF will be on Friday 1 Dec at 3pm.
Location: The Red House on the Lowland Road, Neufreistadt.
Please add suggested agenda items to this forum thread.
This is an open meeting so all are welcome to attend
[color=Black:1tfgiwlf][i:1tfgiwlf]Meeting on 2006-12-01[/i:1tfgiwlf][/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=Sienna:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Those present[/b:1tfgiwlf]: [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][i:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami is in the chair.[/i:1tfgiwlf][/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][i:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:1tfgiwlf][/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: pls touch the recorder etc[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: there's an agenda in the notecard giver[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: first item is the judiciary repeal proposal[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i have posted on this in the forums. i think the proposal is mad. but what do u think? [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Yes.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Oh[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: It's a "populist measure"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Claude is afraid of the citizens.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: I just now read that Beathan is publicly claiming it's all the DPU's fault[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: because they moved in with the Judiciary Act,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and so Claude is trying to put down the fire, doing what the citizens want to do[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Well... 7 citizens [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: last time i checked it's only one or two raising hell on the forums. the 'silent majority' are, well, silent[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Aye[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: it's the old thingy: 'Who Yells the Louder...'[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: So, my assessment is that it is premature[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: so claude is panicking?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: He is. Yes.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: ah, i think so[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: But you could use the threat of having the SC approving the whole set of documents as "internal procedures"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: as being then outside the RA's reach[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: as a FAR more dangerous issue[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: well indeed. he clearly hasn't thought it through[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and increase his level of panick from "paranoia" to "real" [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: I guess as much.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: what angers me (and I *am* angry) is that the LRA could be so irresponsible[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: yes[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: of course, we must look at the other side of the issue[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: And the SC really would have no choice ? all other possibilities would incur us into "neglecting our duty to provide a proper legal system" and would be cause for impeachment, so...[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Indeed[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: if he seriously believes it's worth junking all this work what the fuck have we been doing for the last six months? wher is the leadership?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: There is the issue of having our RA members *politically accountable*[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the alarm about the judiciary seems also like a manouevre by the Simplicity party[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and yes, i ask that too[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Ah-hah yes, Moon![/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i mean, hours and hours reading posts, eyes watering... [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: a *huge* amount of work[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: I've also thought as much. Those "7 citizens" are now clearly maneuvering into their pre-electoral campaign [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: but to enact 'simplicity' would mean constitutional wrangling that woudl make the last term look like a walk in the park![/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: yes, it would[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: that is something that must be very clear in campaign[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: anyway... we're opposed to this proposal i guess?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: let's save the electoral discussion for later, ok?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: that the Simplicity party can not institute their model of governemnt without radical changes to the system and constitution[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i am opposed[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: tho i agree we need to have an initial discussion[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: well, it cannot pass without CSDF support so... it's dead[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: yes, it can't[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Well... I personally don't "oppose" the concept, I just think that it will get the CDS into far more serious troubles later on![/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: at least the constitutional parts of the judiciary[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Aye, yes[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: what about oversight? i think there is a genuine qn mark over ash's qualification process[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: In essence... all measures that remove power from an elected body of government, and put it elsewhere, are not good measures[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Now that's another story [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: yes[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: but actually[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: I haven't been able to download the PDF,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: now that you say that[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: so I just saw the quoted text[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Point one ? assuming people knew they should send the questionnaires to me,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: NO ONE APPLIED.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: there is a proposal also for RA to force SC publishing transcripts[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Point two ? there is a LOT of arguing about US legal ethics[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: yes, let's cover that under AOB Moon[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: yes[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: The ethical issue means mostly that the discussion is being driven elsewhere[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: I don't *oppose* the procedures.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: hmmmm[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i think that Beathan and Ash are being quite pig-headed. beathan is not quite as obtuse as ash but equally stubborn[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: The RA, acting as the PJSP, could probably comment on these[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Yes[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: lol Pat[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: I agree.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i do agree this looks a 'I Am Smarter Than You' thingy[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Ash is obtuse, but... he's right up to a point:[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: 1) Nobody applied as a judge when they had the opportunity for doing so[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: yes, that is a fact , Gwyn[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: 2) Ash is entitled to set up the procedures as *he* wishes[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i can't say that beathan has convinced me that we should junk ash's system (which is entirely constl and agreed) in favour of something else[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: that's in the law! we have approved it...[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Well, I understand Beathan's ethical qualms[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i also notice a certain absence of proposals of legislation that could modify the judiciary into somethng more pleasant... [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: I fail to understand, however, how *US* judges are qualified ? but that's beside the point,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: we're not the US but the CDS[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: exactly[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Agreed, Moon[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: imagine if i wanted to start imposing portuguese judiciary rules to the CDS[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: No one proposes suggestions or alternatives ? except for "let judges be the better forum posters"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i think there is a point (and we may have just reached it) at which the RA needs to intervene to say 'this is daft, let the SC appoint 3 judges who will agree the procedure for recruiting new ones'[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: LOL[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: really, Gwyn?![/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Pat: that was fernando's suggestion[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: And yes Moon[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: there is solid precedence for that:[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: remember, that's how the *SC* members are qualified [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: it may be a way out of the impasse[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and how do you define 'better'?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Well, yes, IF Ash agrees [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Wich he doesn't [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: And really ? he might be right [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: is it more words per thread? .D[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Yes, Moon.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i am sorry[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: that is SILLY[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: posting more on forums only means you have more free time [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: do u have the text of the amend to hand? is it something we could support?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Fernando's reasoning: "The enforcement of the resolution, as I understood the debate, doesn't depend on having a timetable, but on effectively having two more judges in a couple of weeks. I. e., if we have no more judges under your system, the qualification process falls back to the Scientific Council."[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Now this is arguable and debatable.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: ah, let's consider that[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Well[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: The SC argued over it, Moon[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and considered that it had no jurisdiction[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: ie. that Ash's argument is correct[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][i:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant hums Monty Python's 'Oliver Cromwell' .)[/i:1tfgiwlf][/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: lol[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][i:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:1tfgiwlf][/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: but nevertheless[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: So there is a deadlock here.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Fernando is right[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: In effect, *emotionally*, I do agree with Fernando[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the RA can review the application process as it is in the act[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: which is a much more sensible suggestion than Claude's tabula rasa[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: But *legally*, the SC agrees with Ash's view ? a body of judges was created, and the SC has no right to interfere anyway,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: it's irrelevant if the body of judges is "just on"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i think ash has designed a process that is *too* intricate[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: *one[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Ah[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: That is another issue ? should, or shouldn't, the RA revise the qualification process?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: but that may be a way to solve teh issue[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: There is another side-issue here worth considering.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: At one point,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: there was this notion of "qualification"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and "selection"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: The idea was: the Judges qualify,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][i:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant listens to Gwyn[/i:1tfgiwlf][/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the PJSP (or the RA) "select"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Now... Ash tends to imply (and was accused of that!)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: that this "qualification" process is a "two-step process"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: 1) pass the exam[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: 2) get appointed by the PJSP[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: hmmm[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: what if[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: I think that it was Beathan that raised this question ? and said they were *two* separate processes.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the PJSP defines the exam?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and actually, if you remember, that was my original amendment[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: No, the Judges define their own admission exam[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: that the PJSP - teh Order, then in my proposal, would define who could be judge[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: wb pat .)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Whew, I'm glad you're ok, Pat![/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: hi again[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: SL sucks *so* badly at the moment. gah![/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: where were we?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Sorry[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: let me get a glass of madeira wine [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: hehe[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: brb[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Well, basically, the issue about who sets the procedures for qualification of judges.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Actually, there is not much to be said.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Legally, it's up to Ashcroft,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: he cannot be blamed for no one else applying![/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: if ash's system doesn't work, the RA needs to do something[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Ah.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: That's something *else*, ie.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: if his procedures of qualification fail to attract the required two additional judges that Publius has deemed to be necessary,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: well[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the RA, at least *morally*, should do something about it.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: But hmm[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: yes[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the RA *can*[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: how long can/should we wait?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: I'm not sure when the qualification procedure finishes.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: well, tomorrow i'll be ther only for half an hour [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: The RA has "implied" that Ashcroft cannot "stall"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: there's nothing to stop ash hearing cases in the meantime, is there? justice can still be served, can't it?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: in the sense of endlessly postponing the appointment procedures[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Ah[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: No [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Publius has the right[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: to deem the Judiciary "not fair and not balanced"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: UNLESS there are three judges[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: since he sets the MINIMUM for a working judiciary[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: thus ensuring a deadlock on the system![/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: what about[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: great judicial deadlock[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the RA convoking a new schedule for application of judges[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: We can't have a Judiciary operational WITHOUT 3 Judges, and we can't seem to get another two (either due to a lack of volunteers, or too struct application forms)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Aye Pat ? that worried the SC qute a bit, but, at the end of the day,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: this is quickly becoming farcical[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and redoing the process that has led to the appointment of Ash[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: since the SC now cannot pronounce things based on their experience etc, but only based on legal issues[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: my question?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: yes moon?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: it meant that the SC was put outside the process as well [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Sorry[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: well, the discussion tomoro shd be interesting [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: shall we move on to 3?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: about the RA redoing the process of application[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: sorry moon, go on[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: you see that if this is feasible, it is something we can propose[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: also[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][i:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami slaps himself for being impatient[/i:1tfgiwlf][/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: if no one else applies, then hmmm is speaking ill for speaking ill, right?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: The RA has no jurisdiction on that[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i'm not sure I understand what u mean by speaking ill of speaking ill[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: unless it changes the Judiciary Act[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: well, concerned citizens should jump at another opportunity of becoming judges and balancing the judiciary, right?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Well, it would be a small change, i think.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: hmmm[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: if the RA can repeal the act, surely it can modify it slightly[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Unless you mean having the *RA* qualifying the Judges?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Gwyn[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Or just establishing the date?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: how was Ash appointed?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: That was the kick-start [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: someone asked for volunteers right?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Aye.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and he was the only person volunteering[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Yes.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: so, open the process again[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: as i understand it the RA can modify the legislation to achieve their desired outcome, that cd involve new procedures for selecting more judges[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and let's see who shows up[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Hmm[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: The issue is, moon,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the *current* law, as approved,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: it just requires some carefl drafting of a const amend... and our support[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: does not allow that.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Once there is ONE judge appointed ?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: well[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the system enters in full force[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: what do you prefer?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: to have the system repealed or changed?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Changed.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: How would you change it,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: so, how do you change it?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: to prevent abuse in the future? [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: yes gwyn, that is my undertanding too. changed also[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Well[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the issue right now is really: has the JC chair the right to prevent teh Judiciary from working, by establishing a minimum of Judges which is HIGHER than the number of Judges? [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Change that line,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and we have a working judiciary[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: ah[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: albeit one which only has Ash [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: translated into politicese:[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: do we support ash or publius?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: hmm, not appealing [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: hahaha[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and lol[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Noooo[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the issue is one of balance.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i would be happier myself to have more judges, i must say[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: two people in the Judiciary,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: have the power, individually,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: to stop the Judiciary from working.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: One by refusing to admit more Judges[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: The other by requiring MORE Judges than are available[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: So, BOTH need checks.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i have it, gwyn[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the RA could pass legislation ordering a new procedure for appointing two more judges (by the SC) so that we could resolve the impasse[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Impeachment? .-D[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: oooh[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: that would be a bad precedent, Pat,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: people would jump at you[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: "RA appointing Judges?! Oh NO!"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: impeach our only judge, before he even tries a case?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: No[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: *threaten* to impeach BOTH [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: if they fail to uphold their offices in a reasonable manner [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: no no, RA enabling the SC to appoint two more judges, then the SC backs off[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i would go more for letting the truly concerned citizens stand up for the overall good [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and volunteer [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Ok, Pat ? how should that be worded,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: that it wouldn't raise any issues later on?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Rememeber, once we use this to get more Judges,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: it can always be abused, over and over again,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: to get RA-friendly Judges into the Judiciary[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Politicially speaking[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: well, it would be a temporary measure. to get three judges installed. they would then decide how others are to be recruited. it would forces ash to design the system in collaboration with toehres[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: it wouldn't be a very good move.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: *others[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Well[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: imagine that the next thing that happens[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: listens[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: is Publius "raising the threshold"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: "oh, now we need 7 Judges. Sorry folks."[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: ah[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: but you see[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Then the RA would deliberate again to get more judges...[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: if we open up anew application[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: then both publius and ash have to agree with it[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: You're assuming, Moon, that all new Judges would be fun, friendly, and nice... [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: publius, because we attend his request[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: hehe[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and ash, because he was appointed the same way[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: well, at that point we would impeach publius for being irresponsble. he hasn't been so far[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Right hmm[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: I still don't like the idea, but it's a possibility.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Rather, I would change two things:[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: 1) Set the minimum requirement of Judges to be always equal or less the total amount of validated Judges[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Well[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: just one thing, sorry[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: the other does not make any sense[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: it's the madeira wine [/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: It would be something like: "ensure that the compliance with the Chair of the JC is done in two weeks"[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: So, if Ash wants to complay with Publius' decision,[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: he'd have to devise a system[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: that gets more judges in 2 weeks[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Over 2 weeks have passed since he posted his application form ?[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: almost a MONTH has passed, in fact,[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: and we have no more judges[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: i'm coming round to thinking that the problem lies with publius, and his insistence on 3 before anything can happen. is that where our attention ought to be focussed?[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: It's ONE issue.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: [/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: One that is EASIER to address [/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: I know that this is not a good option[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: since I see that Publius is earnestly trying to solve the issue[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: of having a balanced system[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: by making sure that there is not ONLY ONE Judge.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: So he's morally, ethically, and emotionally right :=[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: BUT... he has found out an interesting loophole,[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][i:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami wonders what is wrong with having one judge for 40, 60 people....[/i:2rb99whq][/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: through which a Chair of the JC can prevent the system of working, if we have a stubborn Chair of the Ethical Commission, or whatever it's called[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Well[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: How do you appeal? [/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: and btw[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: well pat, the issue as i see it is also[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: good point [/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: people on teh forums are now asking for Publius to revise his number, from 3 to *four* judges[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: that is true also[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: that the judges hold a power, namely of saying who can be judge[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: This can endlessly go on and on[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: aah, loopholes. and the law of unintended consquences... [/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: imagine that ash decides that a candidate for judge needs to be able to compute cubic roots in his head .D[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Yes.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: That's the level of requirements he's proposing, actually.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Thus the deadlock.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: and would Ash pass his own test? now that is a question [/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: The RA's and SC's oversight was that we never thought that Publius would use that clause to raise the number of Judges *above* the number of *existing* judges[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: ... because everybody would certainly antecipate that Ash would be a pain to deal with,[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: well, it's a bit of a mess. but i don't think we're going to arrive at a solution right now. can we move on to the other items? i'd like to have soem time to discuss election strategy and i'm already flagging[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: and thus the PJSP to put a check on Ash's powers [/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Ok[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Sorry[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: ok, let's move on [/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: item 3. joining NFS and CN. daft idea, waste of money. agreed?[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Just a brief note ? the best I can LOL[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: yup[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: oops[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: sorry[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: also[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][i:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn abstains from that issue[/i:2rb99whq][/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: I think it's a *slight* waste of money[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: well, either NFS would hover almost 70 m over CN[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Yes[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: technical issues [/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: or we would have to lower down all NFS... just imagine that[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: namely[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: No more fog![/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: LOL[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: there are building atm for whch we don't have perms[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Aye[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: And raising CN is impossible[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: so we would get a rathaus hovering [/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: well, this is an old discussion[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: it is daft. and the SPC considered the issue and reached a well-founded decision. i tend to agree with ash that we should stick to decisions rather than unpicking them. NEXT![/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: but what do you want? people don't understand the technicities involved[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: lol, ok[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: hehe agreed, let's move on.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: what was the other proposal for tomoro's RA[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: hmmmm[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Ah, forcing the SC to publish transcripts[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Well, I have posted on that thread.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: oh yes. claudes suddenly discovers transparency, having presided over the first RA to hold secret meetings [/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: LOL[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: lol, yes![/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: i must say though[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: that the sc meetings are open[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: and people can attend them[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: of course they are ? open, public, free to attend[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: you can even participate, yell at the SC[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: insult everybody present, etc[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: lol, can we?![/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: but... does the SC *really* want to not publish transcripts? i'm not convinced by dianne's arguments on this[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Ah[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: There have been some tricky issues[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: because some of the things that were said by the SC[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: informally[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: but logged[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: might be considered basis for defamation/libel[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Or at least "poor taste"[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Well, we're humans.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Others could clearly be construed[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: from a paranoid point of view[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: isn't the answer to that, that ppl should think more carefully about what they wirte when they're 'on the record'?[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: as good arguments for seeing the SC as being dangerous thinkers [/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: hehe[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: probably![/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: i've said some harsh things tonight but i stand by every word[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][i:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn is always careless[/i:2rb99whq][/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: well, another thing on this Pat[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: the SC, as an unelected body, is in a vulnerable position. it needs to *be* transparent and be *seen* to be transparent[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: What will happen, Pat,[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: the SC is allowed constitutionally to define its own internal proceedings[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: so this bill needs to be an ammendment[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: is that the SC will then define its own proceedings to NOT tell when their secret meetings are [/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Ah yes, there is the constitutional angle as well[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: actually i don't have a problem with that gwyn[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: This can't be a law, but an amendment to limit the SC's right to define its own procedures.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: also another thing:[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: if the SC meets 'privately' or conducts business by email but then has a 'formal' meeting at which the transcript is taken and the decision delivered, i'm fine with that[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Well, that's what would happen[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Ah.... Moon has just crashed[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Her laptop is having lots of hardware problems[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: i'm probably fine with waht u want to do. but the record has to be as full as possible and the default position shoudl be that u publish a transcript unless there is a good reason not to[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: oh dear [/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Well she still has the old PC[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: she'll be logging in soon[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: I've discussed this with her earlier, lol[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: So the point here is the following:[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: she's sat there typing away as fast as she can[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: a zombie typist![/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: 1) Either the SC defines its own procedures internally, or it doesn't.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: haha[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: 2) Transparency means: meetings are public to attend, and a journal is published[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: she's gon[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: *gone[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: she'll be back [/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: So, an amendment to this would mean:[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: 1) Removing the SC's right to define its own procedures[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: This will, of course, also seriously limit the SC's ability to be "neutral"[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: i agree gwyn, and i think the RA should butt out of this one. i'm just saying what i think the SC ought to do [/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: I mean, once you start that ? the RA will be able to change the procedures every time they wished, to make sure all the legislation gets passed as they want[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: That's a dangerous precedent ? but not an unconstitutional one![/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: hehe[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: well[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: I couldn't care less, actually, but I'm just voicing a minority of one[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: And then point 2)[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: all meetings would become secret[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: which, I fear, is far more "dangerous"[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: The "fake" meetings would be boring, rehearsed[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: and just reading from notecards[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: wb moon[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Well, they would also be MUCH shorter ? that's a good reason.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Ah, Moon's back ? great[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: as long as the decision-making is clear, i'm happy[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: thanks [/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: what have i lost?[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: So I would say, on this, that only one thing would need to be evaluated...[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: (not much, Moon, you've heard my arguments before, and they're posted on the forums as well)[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: ah, ok[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: What is worse for the CDS ?[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: A) Having open, public meetings with a journal of the discussion[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: i also would like to make a point[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: B) Having "fake" meetings, staged for an audience, and the SC only deciding and and discussing in private?[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: if the RA must not interfere with the Judiciary... then must it interfere with the SC?[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: hehe[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: just a coherence point here[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Well good argument, Moon [/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: indeed moon[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: The same applies, for instance, if you have a "collective of judges" on a trial,[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: after a while, they retire to a room[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: and discuss (in private) among themselves,[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: then they come out[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: and read their conclusions.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: lol, you see that we have to defend a standing[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Usually, you don't have a record of what transpired when the collective of judges where on their office discussiing the case,[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: all you have is the decision[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: The SC is like that ? with a big difference,[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: people now can attend these "backstage" meetings and participate if they wish![/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: i'm fine with this gwyn, u've 'ashcrofted' me into submission [/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: ROFL[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: lol[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: And I'm defending an argument that I DON'T agree with on a *personal* basis [/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: OMG, thou art complex![/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: lol[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: can we turn to the upcoming election?[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: yes[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: gwyn is afk, but will brb[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: i propose that we don't post these discussions until after the election[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: backl, sorry[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: so the transcript will stop here[/color:2rb99whq]