[7:07] Moon Adamant: ok, for the record
[7:07] Rose Springvale: i' was fiddling with them yesterday, of course i couldn't move yours
[7:08] Moon Adamant: we are at rose's skybox, where we have laid sculpty maps of CDS and AA
[7:08] Moon Adamant: later on these will be moved to a Guild location
[7:08] Moon Adamant: ok Rose
[7:09] Rose Springvale: yes?
[7:09] Moon Adamant: i have been here and looked at the AM sims
[7:09] Moon Adamant: and sort of disposed them north of CN
[7:09] Rose Springvale: you mean the AA sims then
[7:09] Moon Adamant: with what i think works better in terms of relief
[7:09] Moon Adamant: yes
[7:09] Moon Adamant: sorry
[7:09] Rose Springvale: can we do this?
[7:09] Moon Adamant: but i have a problem
[7:09] Rose Springvale: can we start with all the sims in their current configuration? i have problems too
[7:10] Moon Adamant: i don't know what the voids contain, can you please tell me?
[7:10] Rose Springvale: ah, so you've still not been to the site?
[7:10] Rose Springvale: just for the record?
[7:10] Moon Adamant: no lol
[7:10] Rose Springvale: okay, i think we have to start there moon, because some of this affects property owners
[7:10] Rose Springvale: views, etc
[7:10] Moon Adamant: i intended to do that this morning, so i could namely make better sculpts using sculpt maps
[7:10] Rose Springvale: i've tried to label the north side of each sim,because as you know, LL won't rotate them
[7:11] Moon Adamant: well, i know Alhambra and Generalife, of course
[7:11] Rose Springvale: but the homesteads are critical
[7:11] Moon Adamant: yes, but i didn't rotate any
[7:11] Rose Springvale: ah, i had
[7:11] Rose Springvale: i've not returned them to map rotation
[7:11] Rose Springvale: jalso
[7:11] Rose Springvale: also that is
[7:11] Rose Springvale: it appeared to me that you'd made an attempt at roadways from CN?
[7:11] Rose Springvale: is that what that is?
[7:12] Moon Adamant: yes
[7:12] Moon Adamant: i understand that one of the voids
[7:12] Moon Adamant: has a library, i suppose this al garnata
[7:12] Rose Springvale: but .. you've connected roadways to walls.
[7:13] Rose Springvale: in AA
[7:13] Moon Adamant: hmmmm
[7:13] Moon Adamant: ok
[7:13] Moon Adamant: then the plan is
[7:13] Rose Springvale: i imagine when the flat map is viewed it looks like a road
[7:13] Moon Adamant: we have a road coming from CN
[7:13] Moon Adamant: the decumanum
[7:13] Moon Adamant: it's an important road which should lead to alhambra/generalife
[7:14] Rose Springvale: yes,
[7:14] Moon Adamant: which in your opinion then is the best sim to pass it?
[7:14] Rose Springvale: and there is a roadway in Alhambra that it should connect to
[7:14] Rose Springvale: which connects to al garnata
[7:14] Moon Adamant: ok
[7:14] Rose Springvale: in its current configurations
[7:14] Moon Adamant: let's start from start then
[7:14] Rose Springvale: i suggest we go see the sims
[7:14] Rose Springvale: so you know what we are working with
[7:15] Moon Adamant: please put the sims in current config
[7:15] Moon Adamant: or i'll put... calling up the map
[7:16] Rose Springvale: confuses me.. Wait
[7:19] Moon Adamant: sorry
[7:19] Rose Springvale: see? good morning
[7:19] Connected
[7:19] Moon Adamant: my ISP is playing hell with my DNS
[7:19] Rose Springvale: mine too
[7:19] Moon Adamant: ok
[7:19] Rose Springvale: and my computer heats up too much..sigh
[7:19] Moon Adamant: i managed to save the transcript so we haven't lost a thing
[7:19] Moon Adamant: to recap
[7:20] Rose Springvale: i log chat too, so i've always got a back up
[7:20] Moon Adamant: we (Guild) have to propose two solutions for the placement of the AA sims in an united CDS-AA territory
[7:20] Moon Adamant: one option is immediate
[7:21] Moon Adamant: the current config, moved to next the CDS territory, separated with a pelagic band
[7:21] Moon Adamant: this would allow you to just move the sims
[7:21] Rose Springvale: pelagic meaning water?
[7:21] Moon Adamant: water with islands
[7:21] Rose Springvale: would be expensive and geographically separatist
[7:21] Rose Springvale: i'd oppose that
[7:21] Moon Adamant: yes
[7:21] Moon Adamant: so we are here today trying to study another placement
[7:22] Moon Adamant: north to CN and roman cluster
[7:22] Moon Adamant: ok
[7:22] Rose Springvale: one option yes. there are other options as well
[7:22] Rose Springvale: east might work
[7:22] Moon Adamant: hmmmm ok
[7:22] Moon Adamant: we'll see that later
[7:22] Moon Adamant: first of all
[7:23] Moon Adamant: please tell me what the voids contain
[7:23] Moon Adamant: and to what point we can adapt them to match our territory
[7:23] Moon Adamant: for instance, i see a completely detached island
[7:23] Moon Adamant: Almunecar
[7:23] Rose Springvale: the two that are for sure to remain, are al garnata, which contains a roman library cluster
[7:23] Moon Adamant: ok, that would be a nice transition sim
[7:23] Rose Springvale: and albaycin, which is a nature preserve
[7:24] Moon Adamant: ok
[7:24] Rose Springvale: sacromonte is relatively empty, currently next to allbaycin, but i am pretty sure we can adjust it as we wish
[7:24] Moon Adamant: ok
[7:24] Moon Adamant: on the CDS side
[7:25] Rose Springvale: the fourth, the separated one, is almunecar. it's currently Drax's studio island and it changes.. but i beleieve he will be giving it up, so it will be open to planning as well
[7:27] Rose Springvale: did you get any of that ?
[7:27] Moon Adamant: sorry again
[7:27] Moon Adamant: a person here trying to work....
[7:27] Moon Adamant: last i got was
[7:28] Rose Springvale: [7:24] Moon Adamant: on the CDS side
[7:25] Rose Springvale: the fourth, the separated one, is almunecar. it's currently Drax's studio island and it changes.. but i beleieve he will be giving it up, so it will be open to planning as well
[7:25] Rose Springvale: we've also discussed the option of upgrading at least one of the homesteads. so keep that in mind as well
[7:26] Rose Springvale: 3 homesteads = one full prim for conversion, which can be done free until the price increase in june
[7:28] Moon Adamant: ok
[7:28] Moon Adamant: i was saying when i crashed
[7:28] Moon Adamant: that the connection between AA and the roman cluster
[7:28] Moon Adamant: must follow either the cardo or decumanum roads
[7:29] Moon Adamant: due to their importance in roman urbanism
[7:29] Moon Adamant: and as generators also of teh whole roman cluster
[7:29] Moon Adamant: and while i was crashing, i had an idea
[7:29] Moon Adamant: we have been discussing north positioning
[7:29] Moon Adamant: but you suggested east as well
[7:30] Rose Springvale: yes
[7:30] Moon Adamant: and i am thinking... north-east
[7:30] Moon Adamant: let me move the sims
[7:30] Rose Springvale: kk
[7:30] Moon Adamant: if we align Alhambra with CN
[7:31] Moon Adamant: and use al garnata as transition?
[7:31] Rose Springvale: yes
[7:31] Rose Springvale: that can work
[7:31] Moon Adamant: then we could use
[7:31] Moon Adamant: albayacin as an ending to alhambra
[7:32] Rose Springvale: no
[7:32] Rose Springvale: it needs to stay connected where it was
[7:32] Rose Springvale: there are land owner considerations
[7:32] Moon Adamant: hm, ok
[7:32] Rose Springvale: but the other two are available
[7:32] Moon Adamant: ok, first of all
[7:32] Moon Adamant: we can terraform al garnata's edges, right?
[7:33] Rose Springvale: yes
[7:33] Moon Adamant: ok
[7:33] Moon Adamant: albayacin and sacremonte then align with alhmabra and Generalife
[7:34] Rose Springvale: 'okay, sacromonte is one that yuo can play with too
[7:34] Rose Springvale: nothing on there that is critical i think
[7:34] Moon Adamant: well, they seem natural in this position
[7:34] Moon Adamant: don't you think?
[7:34] Rose Springvale: well .. smile
[7:34] Moon Adamant: let me guess... they are in this position!
[7:35] Rose Springvale: the are a bit divergent, yes, this is how they are now
[7:35] Rose Springvale: and the land from Alhambra adn generalife connect
[7:35] Moon Adamant: almunecar is my trouble now
[7:35] Moon Adamant: what do i do with it
[7:35] Moon Adamant: start the pelagic band with it?
[7:35] Rose Springvale: logical is to close the la gap here
[7:36] Moon Adamant: can we terraform it?
[7:36] Rose Springvale: you can do anything you want to that one
[7:36] Moon Adamant: oh
[7:36] Moon Adamant: then we have a solution then
[7:36] Rose Springvale: not bad.. what do you think?
[7:36] Moon Adamant: we terraform almunecar
[7:37] Moon Adamant: so that it connects both to LA and al ganarta
[7:37] Moon Adamant: and can do a nice coastal line
[7:38] Moon Adamant: later on, we will need a 5th sim
[7:38] Rose Springvale: 5th?
[7:38] Moon Adamant: to give Alhambra a coastal orle
[7:38] Rose Springvale: ah, but alhambra is in the desert lol
[7:38] Moon Adamant: yes, this t5hingy here i sketched
[7:38] Rose Springvale: you and delia lol
[7:38] Moon Adamant: justly so
[7:38] Rose Springvale: delia made north spain
[7:38] Moon Adamant: it needs more land
[7:39] Moon Adamant: here
[7:39] Rose Springvale: well, the original plan was that more land would go there for growth.. if we make a coastline, we end it
[7:39] Rose Springvale: lets go see?
[7:39] Moon Adamant: see what i mean?
[7:39] Rose Springvale: yes, but
[7:39] Moon Adamant: oh, i know it
[7:39] Rose Springvale: okay
[7:40] Moon Adamant: don't forget i gave you a hand with the terrains lol
[7:40] Rose Springvale: smile, but that was before the fortress.. a lot has happened since then
[7:40] Moon Adamant: my idea is this
[7:40] Moon Adamant: almunecar and a 5th sim one day
[7:41] Moon Adamant: extending the land
[7:41] Rose Springvale: hmm, one other idea
[7:41] Moon Adamant: and doing a shore
[7:41] Moon Adamant: because we have to take into account
[7:41] Moon Adamant: that LA is a haven
[7:41] Rose Springvale: the thing we are losing with this configuration is the library view when we leave CN
[7:41] Rose Springvale: La is a haven??
[7:42] Moon Adamant: yes, it has a harbour
[7:42] Rose Springvale: slide your new sims a bit, let me show you another idea
[7:42] Moon Adamant: the idea is that you can one day sail from LA
[7:42] Rose Springvale: ah, sailing. sigh.
[7:43] Rose Springvale: this one lets the libary feel more part of the project. .. but i need to go see which side the main building is on. this map is old
[7:44] Moon Adamant: ok
[7:44] Moon Adamant: this will work
[7:44] Rose Springvale: you want to come or just have me go look?
[7:44] Moon Adamant: if almunecar is completely terraformed
[7:44] Moon Adamant: let me think one sec, please
[7:45] Rose Springvale: okay, one more option, i'll jut copy sims
[7:46] Rose Springvale: this one preserves all your other ideas for CN and lA
[7:46] Moon Adamant: ok....
[7:46] Moon Adamant: i like it also
[7:46] Moon Adamant: don't delete anything lol
[7:46] Rose Springvale: smile
[7:46] Moon Adamant: this way we'll connect via cardo
[7:47] Rose Springvale: yes
[7:47] Rose Springvale: and i think the library faces east.. let me see if i can tell from map
[7:47] Rose Springvale: yes, the big building faces east and would look really spectacular there
[7:47] Moon Adamant: this solution only has a disavantage
[7:48] Rose Springvale: though the height of CN.. yes?
[7:48] Moon Adamant: it will force the roman cluster to develop northwards along the shore
[7:48] Moon Adamant: which may not be bad
[7:48] Moon Adamant: ok
[7:48] Moon Adamant: but i think we have found our two solutions
[7:48] Rose Springvale: well, and limits the spanish cluster too
[7:48] Rose Springvale: though
[7:48] Moon Adamant: no because you can always expand east
[7:48] Moon Adamant: and north
[7:49] Rose Springvale: if we haveneed of development, nothing to say we can't move them..
[7:49] Rose Springvale: ah but the main sims are closed. se?
[7:49] Rose Springvale: east will be roman
[7:49] Moon Adamant: yes, there is a certain lack of roads lol
[7:49] Rose Springvale: west yes
[7:49] Rose Springvale: second option still leaves almunecar to fill whatever we need
[7:50] Rose Springvale: or use to upgrade
[7:50] Moon Adamant: yup
[7:50] Moon Adamant: in that case
[7:50] Moon Adamant: i would use it to upgrade, i think
[7:50] Rose Springvale: left to my devices, i'll upgrade the library and preserve, because i find homesteads limiting
[7:50] Moon Adamant: al garnata
[7:50] Moon Adamant: yes
[7:50] Moon Adamant: exactly
[7:51] Moon Adamant: and you have a nice hamlet stemming out of alhambra
[7:51] Rose Springvale: hamlet?
[7:51] Rose Springvale: smile
[7:51] Moon Adamant: townlet... whatever
[7:51] Rose Springvale: ah, yes. the village
[7:51] Moon Adamant: something which could be turned into urban tissue
[7:51] Rose Springvale: if we upgrade that sim, we could actully have few more houses on the lbrary sim. still a lot of space open, though few prims
[7:52] Moon Adamant: well, you know my recipe
[7:52] Rose Springvale: ?
[7:52] Moon Adamant: largish plots with a multiplier
[7:52] Rose Springvale: smile
[7:52] Moon Adamant: make L$$$$$
[7:52] Rose Springvale: lol we are non profit
[7:52] Rose Springvale: and pip already owns two houses lol
[7:53] Moon Adamant: ok
[7:53] Moon Adamant: i can't stay much longer
[7:53] Rose Springvale: we actually have three options here
[7:53] Moon Adamant: but we have the sketch of two good solutions here
[7:53] Moon Adamant: yes
[7:53] Rose Springvale: connecting al garnata at la, connecting at cn north, and connecting at cn west
[7:54] Moon Adamant: yup
[7:54] Rose Springvale: using almunecar either as pelagic, or as upgrade
[7:54] Moon Adamant: goodie
[7:54] Rose Springvale: leaving the other sims in place
[7:54] Rose Springvale: also
[7:54] Rose Springvale: we can discuss sacromonte too
[7:54] Moon Adamant: i'll try to sketch these
[7:54] Moon Adamant: indeed
[7:54] Rose Springvale: \as it has one tenant who i think only rented to help me out
[7:55] Rose Springvale: will hear back from him soon
[7:55] Moon Adamant: though you have an issue with sacremonte
[7:55] Moon Adamant: no roads
[7:55] Rose Springvale: its just undeveloped
[7:55] Moon Adamant: ok
[7:55] Rose Springvale: terraformed to match delia so she could sail
[7:55] Rose Springvale: my guess it we can do whatver we want with taht sim too
[7:55] Rose Springvale: including move it to some mountainside...
Liasion Meeting - AA/CDS territories
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- Moon Adamant
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Liasion Meeting - AA/CDS territories
- Moon Adamant
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Re: Liasion Meeting - AA/CDS territories
For better comprehension of the above transcript, here's a map of the current sim placement in Al-Andaluz. Please notice that the 5 upper sims make an unified territory and that Almunecar (as mentioned by Rose) is undeveloped still.
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Re: Liasion Meeting - AA/CDS territories
Here are finally the drawings that represent the options we have in placing Al-Andalus territory. We must note some things about this:
1. Saving Almunecar, the other 5 sims make a coherent territory and should not be moved from their relative locations;
2. Alhambra and Generalife are full sims, the rest being homesteads;
3. Al Garnata has a roman-like structure and so it is being chosen as transitional territory. Al Garnata can also be upgraded to a full sim, which would allow the expansion of the Alhambra village.
4. Almunecar can be used to upgrade any of the other homesteads to a full sim. Here, it has been placed in the most logical places in case it's decided otherwise.
In relation to the drawings, please note that "partially terraform" means align terrain with sim borders and other terraforming operations that don't mess with the buildings present. Almunecar, as undeveloped, is marked "terraform" since we can do anything we like with it.
Also, I have marked the pelagic band and expansion directions in each of the options to relate these drawings with the current GMP work.
I am also preparing sculpt maps of the CDS and AA territories to placed for tomorrow's GMP WG meeting at the Gymnasium, in CN.
Please click on the images to see them in full.
- Sudane Erato
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Re: Liasion Meeting - AA/CDS territories
I have 2 questions regarding the 3 proposed arrangements for an AA/CDS connection.
1. All 3 proposals show an unterraformed Almunecar homestead sim, with some mention in the documents that it "would be terraformed". Considering that we are trying to assemble a functional map of the 10 sims (and how they fit into the larger GMP), would it not make sense to include a proposed sculpty of the Almunecar sim (like is provided of the Monastery sim), to indicate how it would fit in? It seems like a big question mark. Indeed, there's some reference in the notes to possible re-terraform of the other 3 AA homesteads... would it not make sense to include sculpties of them as well (how they *will* look)?
2. Proposals 2 and 3 include a grey "transition sim". Is this sim envisioned as an essential element of the project at this time... or is it a sim which could be added at a later date? And, again, as in question #1, if this sim is as central to the project as its location seems to make it, should we not have a sculpty, or at least a diagram of the landform and roads in order to see how it fits?
These are just techie questions... I feel the plan looks great! All three proposals offer exciting options .
Sudane................................
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Re: Liasion Meeting - AA/CDS territories
Hmmm, at the moment i am a bit limited in doing raw files, since my Mac broke off for good - but it's possible, i can do them by hand in photoshop. Mind only that according to Almunecar's placement, the three terraforms are different, so i'd rather propose one terrain after a choice was made i don't foresee any exceptional features in Almunecar, essentially what we are talking here is bringing terrain up to correct heights, put water if needed... maybe make it a gentle rolling terrain
This is very open for suggestions, in fact.
As for the transition sim, neither in proposal 2 or 3 it's needed that the sim is put immediately... although it would be good to have it. If proposal 3 is chosen, i suggest that a study is made for the transition sim AND the roman sim at the same time, so it's easier to make the transition.
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Re: Liasion Meeting - AA/CDS territories
Moon, i'm glad to send you any raw files you need. (maybe I should send you a mac!)
Sudane, Almunecar is presently used as a studio and gets re terraformed based on the film being made. You see in these proposals a desert sim that is being used as a backdrop to a literature series.
Remember too that it takes 3 homestead sims, or a combination of money and sims, to upgrade to a full sim. We've discussed, (in AA) upgrading Garnata and Albaycin based on real limitations in a project that homesteads provide. Same reason i'm opposed to making the monastery a homestead sim. Right now our rates are too good to make changes, but when prices increase, i would say the likelihood of upgrading is strong, depending on the status of CDS/AA negotiations. Both Sacromonte and Almunecar might be used for that.
- Sudane Erato
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Re: Liasion Meeting - AA/CDS territories
Rose Springvale wrote:Remember too that it takes 3 homestead sims, or a combination of money and sims, to upgrade to a full sim. We've discussed, (in AA) upgrading Garnata and Albaycin based on real limitations in a project that homesteads provide. Same reason i'm opposed to making the monastery a homestead sim. Right now our rates are too good to make changes, but when prices increase, i would say the likelihood of upgrading is strong, depending on the status of CDS/AA negotiations. Both Sacromonte and Almunecar might be used for that.
Well, that makes perfect sense on financial grounds, but if that's an option, then a proposal for that ought to be here too, since these 3 proposals all assume AA with 6 sims.
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- Moon Adamant
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Re: Liasion Meeting - AA/CDS territories
Yes, but since Al Garnata would be the upgraded sim, that would imply 3 more proposals, as Al Garnata is the 'hinge' of the connection. As Almunecar and Sacromonte aren't really doing anything on the proposals besides sitting there it is easy to imagine a territory without them.
EDIT: Also, the issue of upgrading sims is not decided by the Guild, since it is a political decision. Thus we have made full proposals using the territory as is.
- Gwyneth Llewelyn
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Re: Liasion Meeting - AA/CDS territories
Well, all I can say at this juncture is that, from a purely personal point of view, I like proposal 3 best — it shows a more balanced approach to organic expansion, and, from the point of view of someone external to the CDS that had never seen the GMP, it clearly shows the "growth" intention *right now*, even without extra sims.
I understand that there are some issues with Al Garnata — which will be the sim requiring the most terraforming under proposals 2 and 3 — and I guess that's why Rose favours solution #1 (Al Garnata would not require any roads and keep the waterfront on the west side). Although, aesthetically, I dislike the "thin strip" model. So this will be a tough choice.
I guess that at this stage we'll also need to get some input from the AA folks (specially the Al Garnata owner!) and probably extend the informal discussion to them as well...
Reason: wrote "pint" instead of "point". Sheesh!
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Re: Liasion Meeting - AA/CDS territories
This will be presented to the AA people in due course. I'd ask that CDS let us follow our process in AA, as we have patiently allowed CDS to do.
Gwyn... the thin strip model? Like what CDS has now?
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Re: Liasion Meeting - AA/CDS territories
Yes indeed, but just because we currently have a "thin strip" model, it doesn't mean I like it at all, Rose
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Re: Liasion Meeting - AA/CDS territories
Gwyneth Llewelyn wrote:Yes indeed, but just because we currently have a "thin strip" model, it doesn't mean I like it at all, Rose
Regarding the "thin strip" model: Gwyn, when I first looked at these proposals I too preferred #3. Then as I was exploring the physical maps (laid out over at Jon's Gymnasium), I accidentally got myself turned around and instead of looking at it with "north" at the top, I looked at it with "south" at the top. Try it -- it offers a whole new perspective with a whole different "feel" to it. I also decided that I like #1 because it's so self-contained: it uses the sims we have without requiring any others. All of the territories are compact and contiguous: you can walk from one sim to another with nice transitions, and there's no place where you have to skip over something or TP to get there. It also seems to me to offer the best opportunities for expansion in all directions. Another good point is that we could either leave the Homestead sims as they are or if there are good uses (and income opportunity) for a full-function sim, we could easily upgrade them in place sometime in the future.
In short, while it might not seem like the best short-term choice because of the shape, to me #1 looks like the best long-term choice. It really fleshes out the "core" of CDS as it will be when we're at 25 or 50 sims, and the way the AA sims are arranged provides a strong core for the AA theme to grow in the same way as the Roman, MittelEuro and Alpine themes have space to grow. The open-ended Pelagic area also sets us up to create that Greek theme area if we choose to do so. And if I'm not mistaken, as a bonus #1 will require the least re-terraforming of Al Garnata to fit in, including preservation of that waterfront.
Now I'm ready to be patient and see what the rest of the Al Andalus citizens have to say about each of these proposals. Since Guild has said that we are willing to work with any of them, seems to me that it's going to be up to AA to say which they prefer.
Cindy
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Re: Liasion Meeting - AA/CDS territories
I would tend to agree with Cindy: all proposals are feasible. From the pov of the Guild, it is indifferent which one is chosen. And obviously i also agree with Cindy and Gwyn on this: the AA community must have a say about the future of their territory. In all the proposals, the intention was to protect that territory's integrity to the outmost. So i am confident that they will appreciate the three proposals in a spirit of equanimity.