[08:07] Delia Lake: the agenda is in the box behind me to my right
[08:07] Delia Lake: there are also notecards with information about the topics
[08:08] Delia Lake: We should start.
[08:09] Lilith Ivory: I agree
[08:09] Delia Lake: I don't know if Calli will get here or not
[08:09] Delia Lake: so I call the meeting of the SC to order at 8:09 am
[08:09] Delia Lake: there are only 3 items on the agenda today
[08:10] Lilith Ivory: I will take the transcript as Calli isn´t here if that is ok with you
[08:10] Delia Lake: they are what we had talked about at the end of last month's meeting
[08:10] Delia Lake: thank you Lilith. very much appreciated
[08:11] Delia Lake: please everyone look at the agenda. Is it OK? is there anything to add?
[08:11] Lilith Ivory: I would propose to move By-Election law on top of our agenda as the RA might want to discuss this next saturday
[08:12] Almut Brunswick raises hand
[08:12] Almut Brunswick: Can it be that the agenda in the wall box is just a blank NC?
[08:13] Lilith Ivory: it´s blank for me too
[08:13] Coolin Seaside: I was thinking the same, but we already got the agenda 5 minutes ago when the meeting was announced
[08:13] Delia Lake: We could do that. I had thought we could very quickly look at the first two, not to change them right now but so that we start thinking if they need changes and address them another time
[08:14] Delia Lake: the agenda is in the box on the table behind me
[08:14] Lilith Ivory: that works for me too
[08:14] Delia Lake: is that blank?
[08:14] Soro Dagostino: One of Coop's old agendas or something.
[08:14] Almut Brunswick: Yes
[08:14] Delia Lake: the box on the wall is a mailbox
[08:14] Almut Brunswick: I meant the Agenda Giver
[08:15] Delia Lake: sorry about that
[08:15] Delia Lake: Agenda
1. Forum moderation review
2. Petitioning the SC review
3. Review and clarify the By-election lawsAgenda
1. Forum moderation review
2. Petitioning the SC review
3. Review and clarify the By-election laws
[08:16] Delia Lake: now it pasted 2x grrrr
[08:16] Coolin Seaside: lol
[08:17] Delia Lake: now everyone has it?
[08:17] Lilith Ivory: I do
[08:17] Almut Brunswick: *thumbsup* TY
[08:17] Coolin Seaside: yes thanks
[08:19] Delia Lake: I wanted the first 2 items on the Agenda because we haven't reviewed them in a long time and I think it's always good to make sure that critical processes and rules are 1. still relevant, and 2. not missing something that needs to be addressed but wasn't known before
[08:19] Soro Dagostino: I can't make it produce. Shows as there, but it fails to read.
[08:19] Lilith Ivory: yay! here comes Calli
[08:20] Delia Lake: So I would be fine with just fine with taking the nc's to read and think about for discussion at the next meeting
[08:20] Delia Lake: Soro, what is not working?
[08:20] Soro Dagostino: Agenda Box.
[08:20] Lilith Ivory: sounds good to me as this is a lot to read
[08:20] Tor Karlsvalt: Hi Calli
[08:21] Delia Lake: Hi Tor
[08:21] Delia Lake: Hi Calli
[08:21] Lilith Ivory: Hi Tor
[08:21] Tor Karlsvalt: Hi all
[08:21] Coolin Seaside: Hello Calli & Tor
[08:21] Soro Dagostino: Hello Tor GTSY
[08:21] Lilith Ivory shouts: HI Calli
[08:22] Delia Lake: I had trouble moving in sl this morning so Calli may also
[08:22] Lilith Ivory: looks like it as I still see her 20m away
[08:23] Delia Lake: So, next month, April, starts the next election cycle
[08:23] Tor Karlsvalt: Calli and I rezzed upstairs at about the same time.
[08:23] Delia Lake: this will be the 35th term of the RA
[08:23] Tor Karlsvalt: Wow!
[08:23] Soro Dagostino: Hello Calli.
[08:24] Delia Lake: While we hope that we will always have more candidates than positions to fill, that has not always been the case
[08:24] Delia Lake: This last previous election cycle, we had only 3 candidates standing for election to 5 seats
[08:25] Delia Lake: and then only 1 candidate in the by-election to fill the remaining 2 seats
[08:25] Lilith Ivory: Hi Calli
[08:25] Tor Karlsvalt: Hi Calli
[08:25] Callipygian Christensen: apologies for lateness!
[08:25] Soro Dagostino: Hello Calli.
[08:25] Delia Lake: Hi Calli
[08:26] Delia Lake: SL is a little squirrely this morning. I had to relog a number of times to be able to move around
[08:26] Delia Lake: We are talking about elections and by-elections, Calli
[08:27] Delia Lake: Hi Jeremy
[08:27] Lilith Ivory: Hi Jeremy , welcome
[08:27] Jeremy (jeremy.querilo): hi
[08:28] Delia Lake: and reviewing the last previous election cycle
[08:28] Delia Lake: Soro, could you put the agenda box back on the table so people can get the notecards?
[08:29] Delia Lake: if not, I can pass the by-election ruling from this term to people.
[08:29] Delia Lake: please let me know if you want the nc and can't get it
[08:29] Soro Dagostino: Sorry, I didn't mean to intrude.
[08:30] Callipygian Christensen: I got all the cards but agenda is blank - if you can send me that Delia, thanks
[08:30] Soro Dagostino: Ahh, at least I wasn't the olny one.
[08:31] Delia Lake: so to continue, after holding an election and a by-election, we still had only 4 of 5 seats filled
[08:31] Delia Lake: Calli, we are taking the nc's from the first 2 topics to read and discuss next month
[08:32] Delia Lake: and only really addressing #3 today
[08:32] Callipygian Christensen: ah..I thought wow you were fast on the others lol
[08:33] Delia Lake: it was the consensus of the SC that the intent of the Constitution and Laws was not to run a continuous election cycle during each term and so we declined to run a second by-election
[08:33] Delia Lake: with the next election cycle starting in April, hopefully we will have sufficient candidates to fill 5 RA seats and 1 Chancellorship
[08:35] Delia Lake: However, in our SC discussions it became clear that our laws could do a better job of spelling out the process of filling unfilled seats through the by-election process
[08:35] Delia Lake: therefore this discussion
[08:36] Delia Lake: and in the near future probably a recommendation to the RA for additional text in the current laws
[08:36] Delia Lake: What are your thoughts?
[08:37] Lilith Ivory: I think we need clear guidelines about how to fill empty seats when not having enough candidates for RA
[08:37] Lilith Ivory: like which census to use
[08:37] Almut Brunswick raises her hand
[08:38] Jeremy (jeremy.querilo): /afk
[08:38] Delia Lake: which census to use is part of this, yes. when the laws were written we couldn't do monthly censuses when we can and do do now
[08:38] Callipygian Christensen raises her hand
[08:39] Delia Lake: yes, Calli? And Almut if you would hold your comment until after Calli and Soro have had an opportunity to speak
[08:39] Tor Karlsvalt raises his hand.
[08:40] Soro Dagostino: Yield to Almut and Tor.
[08:40] Delia Lake: Calli?
[08:41] Callipygian Christensen: thanks Delia. I would rather have 3 or 4 RA members who *want* to be there than a full five where one or two are there under duress - so I am not inclined to support any p change that will indeed create the potential for a permanent cycle of elections.
[08:42] Delia Lake: so are you saying then that for clarity's sake the law should state that there will be only a single by-election per term to fill unfilled seats resulting from too few candidates in the regular election?
[08:42] Callipygian Christensen: This is not a new problem, we havent really had elections in some time, so I ponder whether that means that there is no interest, among the majority of citizens, in maintaining our system as it is. If it is time to rethink lengths of terms, government as a whole, etc perhaps we need to ask RA to address that possibility.
[08:43] Callipygian Christensen: Yes to your comment there Delia, and if the result is a 3 person RA, so be it.
[08:43] Callipygian Christensen: Done for now.
[08:44] Delia Lake: if there would be only 2 candidates then we would have to rethink our entire form of government as there would be no RA quorum
[08:44] Delia Lake: Almut?
[08:44] Almut Brunswick: Before thinking about ways how to fill vacant RA chairs, we should probably also think about the absolute minimum RA size in worst case. Currently we have already the situation that we are "short-handed" down to 3 RA members because one of our members is often not able to participate. I think, 3 RAs ist the minimum, because an odd number of members is better than an even one. And two would be...a sort of Roman senate
[08:45] Almut Brunswick: Imean a Counsser system
[08:45] Almut Brunswick: Done.
[08:45] Almut Brunswick: Counsellor...sorry
[08:45] Delia Lake: 3 RA members of 5 possible members does meet the minimum for a quorum and therefore for functioning
[08:45] Almut Brunswick: nods
[08:45] Delia Lake: Tor?
[08:45] Tor Karlsvalt: Thank youi
[08:46] Lilith Ivory: Hi Kyoko
[08:46] Jeremy (jeremy.querilo): Hi Kyoko
[08:46] Coolin Seaside raises hand
[08:46] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): hello
[08:46] Tor Karlsvalt: In the short term I would suggest that the RA post the election details in the Preatorium. Possibly. citizens who attend meetings might be motivated to stand if they had better understanding of the process.
[08:47] Tor Karlsvalt: Longer term, we could look at term limits.
[08:47] Tor Karlsvalt: Or appointed positions.
[08:47] Tor Karlsvalt: But I agree, we seem to be functioning.
[08:47] Tor Karlsvalt: done
[08:48] Delia Lake: Personally I believe that it is helpful for people to know ahead what the process and expectations are, for the RA and for many other things as well
[08:48] Delia Lake: Coolin?
[08:49] Coolin Seaside: Thank you. It is after all a Representative Assembly, and question is when it stops to be representative
[08:49] Almut Brunswick: Well said, Coolin!
[08:49] Coolin Seaside: So we probably can'r go below three members. Done
[08:50] Delia Lake: thank you all. any other comments or questions?
[08:51] Delia Lake: let's go back to the census issue
[08:51] Lilith Ivory: Calli had an interesting idea and I agree it is better to have 3 RA members who really want to do this job instead of having more who are not really into it
[08:52] Delia Lake: yes, just bodies in seats are usually not helpful
[08:52] Soro Dagostino: Raises hand.
[08:52] Delia Lake: yes Soro?
[08:52] Jeremy (jeremy.querilo): <afk>
[08:53] Soro Dagostino: Bodies in seats are a limit on supposed authority of 3 people.
[08:54] Delia Lake: can be, yes
[08:54] Tor Karlsvalt raises hand.
[08:54] Delia Lake: yes, Tor?
[08:55] Tor Karlsvalt: Just want to caution against the idea that something needs to be fixed with the RA. What needs to happen is we need more citizens. And it behooves all of us to do a little bit to, at least softly, be ambassadors for the CDS.
[08:55] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): hear hear
[08:55] Delia Lake: that for sure!
[08:55] Tor Karlsvalt: Perhaps with more new people, this RA problem will be solved.
[08:55] Tor Karlsvalt: done
[08:56] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): raises her hand
[08:56] Delia Lake: yes Kyoko?
[08:56] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): I agree with Tor. This is not something that can be fixed by law or rujule
[08:57] Delia Lake: Hi Emilia
[08:57] Lilith Ivory raises her hand
[08:57] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): It does take us all.It is on my gdnda
[08:57] Lilith Ivory: Hi Emilia
[08:58] Soro Dagostino: Hello my Emi.
[08:58] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): it IS my agenda, but the slow start to the term put off a lot of things as I needed a functioning RA to work with.
[08:58] Tor Karlsvalt: Hi Emilia
[08:58] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): I do promise to bring this more to the fore.
[08:59] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): But as you all know the chancellor can be dragged off track by any number of unpredictable issues and events.
[08:59] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): I apologize for failing in my part and pledge to do better.
[08:59] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): done
[08:59] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): not done
[08:59] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): sorry
[08:59] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): brain is slow on Sunday morning LOL
[08:59] Delia Lake doesn't believe Kyoko has failed at all
[09:00] Almut Brunswick hands over the Chancellor a bucket of black coffee
[09:01] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): I think the RA has the responsibility to explain what they are and be active in letting citizens understand more about the value of community service, whether it is through elected office or otherwise. Pointing them to the constitution and the laws is not the same as individual outreach
[09:01] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): /very done
[09:02] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane) takes the bucket gratefully and shares
[09:02] Lilith Ivory looks at her hand in the air
[09:02] Delia Lake: Lil, yes?
[09:03] Lilith Ivory: we have been talking about ways to increase citizen participation for years but in the long term it never worked
[09:03] Emilia Dagostino (emilia.avindar) smiles and waves hello...a bit late, sorry.
[09:04] Lilith Ivory: so I think reducing the size of the RA from the fixed number of 5 to a number of minimum 3 and maximum 5 members would serve out community a lot better
[09:04] Lilith Ivory: done
[09:04] Delia Lake: There are many issues to address individually and by the wider community. It is the running of the election process, the actual implementation of the election that is under the authority and responsibility of the SC specifically. So for that small area the SC can be clear about the process and make it easy to understand
[09:05] Delia Lake: the Constitution and CDSL 20-02 address by-elections
[09:05] Delia Lake: they focus on what to do when someone RESIGNS office during a term
[09:06] Delia Lake: that is not what we have faced recently
[09:06] Delia Lake: https://cdsdemocracy.org/code-of-laws-2/
[09:06] Almut Brunswick raises her hand
[09:07] Delia Lake: when there are insufficient candidates the vacancy occurs BEFORE the term begins. So in that sense there are conditions and rules missing from that law
[09:07] Delia Lake: yes, Almut
[09:07] Almut Brunswick: I do agree with all the analyses about making the RA work more transparent in order to attract candidtates
[09:08] Almut Brunswick: However, I don't think that a general cutting of the RA down to 3 members is the way
[09:08] Almut Brunswick: that is the wrong signal
[09:08] Almut Brunswick: I think the RA whould still strive to win 5 candidates
[09:08] Almut Brunswick: 3 should be only the worst-case minium. Done.
[09:08] Jeremy (jeremy.querilo): b
[09:08] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane) nods in agreement
[09:10] Jeremy (jeremy.querilo) nods
[09:10] Delia Lake: I think those are important points, Almut. Changing the number of RA is something only the RA can do or not. What is assigned to the SC is the actual procedure of conducting elections
[09:11] Delia Lake: so for our SC responsibilities, should we be able to conduct a by-election before the new term actually begins if there have not been sufficient number of candidates to fill the seats? right now we are required to wait until the new RA is seated
[09:12] Delia Lake: re CDSL 20-02
[09:14] Delia Lake: as an example, the 34th RA took office Dec 1, 2020 with 3 members. The by-election process started shortly thereafter but by the time Tor was seated it was about the end of January so the functioning term will be 5 mos not 6 mos this time
[09:15] Almut Brunswick: Nods, good point, Delia!
[09:16] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): raises her hand
[09:16] Delia Lake: so that's one issue, when can a by-election be triggered. Second is what census should be used
[09:17] Delia Lake: Kyoko?
[09:17] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): actually we effectively lost 2 months of the terem. December and January.
[09:17] Delia Lake: yes, correct
[09:17] Delia Lake: ty
[09:18] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): OK I think re by-elections in general they should happen after the RA is seated. Before doesn;t work for me. For various reasons.
[09:19] Almut Brunswick raises hand
[09:19] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): But does the by-election law, is it meant ONLY for resignations?
[09:19] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): I do think there is an unfotunate precedent to try to fill a slot that didn't get filled on the first try
[09:20] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): BTW I have a little list of citizens that I will be approaching to run for the RA
[09:20] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): I do talk to a lot of citizens every week initiated b y me
[09:20] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): done
[09:20] Delia Lake: the law says vacancy
[09:21] Delia Lake: and doesn't specifically address lack of candidates
[09:21] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): well you might clear that up first
[09:22] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): imho by elecytion should be for a resignation or a impeachment
[09:22] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): done
[09:22] Delia Lake: but does specify what census dates to use and that pushes the dates out to make a full compendium of members impossible at the beginning of the term
[09:22] Delia Lake: "To ensure a current Citizen List is in place in the event of a by-election, a census will be taken on the last Friday of July, August, January and February and will be used to create a Citizen List"
[09:23] Soro Dagostino: brb
[09:23] Delia Lake: then citizens have 14 days to challenge the list
[09:23] Delia Lake: and also the law states "If a vacancy occurs on or before March 31st, or on or before September 30th, the most recent Citizen List shall be used to establish those who qualify to stand for election or to vote."
[09:24] Delia Lake: we didn't do monthly census when the law was originally written and could not do ad hoc census without difficulty
[09:25] Coolin Seaside: (Sorry I have to leave)
[09:26] Callipygian Christensen raises her hand
[09:26] Soro Dagostino: Back
[09:27] Delia Lake: so for instance, if the law said that we were to use a mid-November and mid-May census for a by-election when there had been insufficient candidates, the 14 day challenge time would already have passed when the term started
[09:27] Delia Lake: yes, Calli?
[09:28] Callipygian Christensen: A couple of things Delia - references to 'losing months of the term' confuse me somewhat - 3 members is a quorum of the RA, not ideal, but certainly means the RA can meet, discuss and address things they are in agreement on
[09:28] Callipygian Christensen: So not doing so is a choice of the RA and is not part of what we are considering i imo.
[09:29] Callipygian Christensen: The constitution requires a 28 day residency along with the 'time to challenge' - if we move form having a census 'in the drawer' as it were, to doing one e after we find we are short candidates, we cannot avoid a monthplus delay
[09:30] Callipygian Christensen: so I think the question for us, for what the SC is in control of is how many tries at getting candidates are we willing to do the work for - if there are to be changes to anything else, RA has to address that
[09:31] Delia Lake: true. and 3 while technically functional is barely so. Each RA member has to be present at every meeting to make a quorum and that's not always possible
[09:32] Callipygian Christensen: we can change the length of time for challenges, but not the citizenship..so any census, to seat someone at the right time, must be done a month before
[09:32] Callipygian Christensen: done
[09:32] Lilith Ivory raises her hand
[09:32] Delia Lake: but our responsibility as the SC then I think should be to say in simple, clear terms what happens if there are not sufficient candidates to fill offices
[09:33] Delia Lake: yes, Lil
[09:34] Lilith Ivory: as the current by-election law does not state which census to use when there are not enough candidates to fill the seats in an election it would be helpful to have an amendment that states we can use the last census taken for election purposes in this case
[09:34] Lilith Ivory: done
[09:36] Tor Karlsvalt takes notes
[09:36] Delia Lake: I also stand by our ruling earlier that only a single by-election per term will be run to fill seats that were not filled in the regular general election. I think that should be stated in the law
[09:36] Lilith Ivory: I agree
[09:39] Almut Brunswick raises hand
[09:39] Delia Lake: should we draft a recommended amendment from our discussion today and post it on the SC Discussion page to work on and then send to the RA?
[09:40] Delia Lake: we did start this thread back in Nov but didn't finish it. https://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=9640
[09:40] Lilith Ivory: and as we are at it I am also in favour of an addition that obliges the executive to challenge the census if they learn a citizen has left as citizens themselves never do that
[09:40] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane) nods
[09:40] Delia Lake: good point, Lil
[09:40] Delia Lake: yes, Almut?
[09:40] Kyoko Furse-Barzane (samara.barzane): I agree that the original census should be sused so someone n ew meets the requirement for residency by the time of the by election
[09:40] Almut Brunswick: We have three possible situations to consider: 1. ideal (>= 5 candidates), 2. minimal (3-5) and 3. critical (<3)
[09:41] Almut Brunswick: By-elections are required when you have case 2
[09:41] Almut Brunswick: (like we had this term)
[09:41] Almut Brunswick: but what if we areally have less than 3 interested citizens?
[09:42] Almut Brunswick: Shalle we leave the RA in office then? Done
[09:42] Delia Lake: if we have 2 or only 1 candidate for RA, the community and the RA have a crisis of government to address before the end of that term
[09:42] Lilith Ivory: we can´t leave the RA in office as the members would just run
[09:43] Lilith Ivory: otherwise they had declared as candidates
[09:43] Callipygian Christensen: It would also be ignoring the Constiution
[09:43] Lilith Ivory nods in agreement
[09:43] Delia Lake: the RA and the Chancellor and the SC all have different sets of responsibilities regarding elections
[09:45] Delia Lake: whether or not people choose to run is my interest and responsibility as a citizen but addressing that is not under the purview of the SC.
[09:45] Delia Lake: it's the nuts and bolts of running the election process that is the responsibility of the SC
[09:46] Tor Karlsvalt: Hi Mizou
[09:47] Jeremy (jeremy.querilo): Hi Mizou
[09:47] Mizou Vavoom: Hi all
[09:47] Lilith Ivory: Hi Mizou
[09:48] Callipygian Christensen raises her hand
[09:48] Delia Lake: it is now 8:46. do we think we will be able to craft text to address the election issues that are within the responsibility of the SC here and now or should we do that on the SC Discussion page? If we use the Discussion page we still need to do this in a timely manner as the next election cycle starts in a few weeks.
[09:48] Delia Lake: yes, Calli?
[09:49] Callipygian Christensen: You summed up the SC role perfectly there Delia. I think your suggestin that we prepare and submit to the RA is excellent and I'd add that we attach a list of posible things for the RA to address, things that came out of this discussion also.
[09:49] Callipygian Christensen: We can do that in SC discussion or by e-mail, what ever is easiest for everyone.
[09:49] Delia Lake: very good suggestion
[09:50] Delia Lake: I think this should go to the SC Discussion page so the public can read the discussion
[09:50] Delia Lake: https://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=9640
[09:52] Delia Lake: we have 2 sections then. 1.what we the SC are responsible to do and state for the public as rules and regulations, and 2. Recommendations for the RA to consider
[09:54] Delia Lake: I can start those 2 threads from the transcript of this meeting
[09:54] Delia Lake: Are there other things we need to address here today?
[09:59] Lilith Ivory: not from my side
[09:59] Delia Lake: I suggest that we may need to meet in less than a month with the election cycle about to begin again so tentatively April 18? if not needed then April 25? both Sundays. If there is nothing more, I move that we adjorn this meeting.
Announcements by the Dean of the Scientific Council
Moderator: SC Moderators
1 post • Page 1 of 1
- Lilith Ivory
- Master Word Wielder
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:43 pm
- Location: Germany
"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."