Transcript of Discussion, 1-5-15 -- Part I, Covenants

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Leslie Allandale
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Transcript of Discussion, 1-5-15 -- Part I, Covenants

Post by Leslie Allandale »

NOTE: Attending members were Timo Gufer, Rosie Gray and Leslie Allandale. As this was not a quorum, the meeting was postponed to the next Monday, January 12, 2015. The following is a copy of the local chat, recorded in the substituted discussion -- with thanks for the contributions of our guests.

[2015/01/05 09:56] Leslie Allandale: Since we have people of stature here, maybe we could discuss how we could provide a way for citizens to contact Commissioners...
[2015/01/05 09:56] Leslie Allandale: Tor, Rosie, Widget?
[2015/01/05 09:57] Tor Karlsvalt: oh, maybe one of those boards
[2015/01/05 09:57] Rosie Gray: maybe we could have a sign here with who is on the commission, like the boards we have for RA members
[2015/01/05 09:57] Tor Karlsvalt: Sudane could make one.
[2015/01/05 09:57] Tor Karlsvalt: yeah
[2015/01/05 09:57] Tor Karlsvalt: That should be done at the very least.
[2015/01/05 09:57] Leslie Allandale: Yes.. How would we implement that?
[2015/01/05 09:58] Rosie Gray: either that or just mailboxes, which are easy too
[2015/01/05 09:58] Leslie Allandale: or both?
[2015/01/05 09:58] Felicia Fortune (feliciafortune): LOL. The RA board needs attention. I didn't know Govenor Linden was on the RA!
[2015/01/05 09:58] Tor Karlsvalt: Just ask Sudane, or ask Pat to ask Sudane. hehe
[2015/01/05 09:58] Rosie Gray: I don't think Pat has to ask her, lol
[2015/01/05 09:58] Tor Karlsvalt: I am sure it wouldn't be a big deal.
[2015/01/05 09:58] Leslie Allandale: Can you ask her, Rosie?
[2015/01/05 09:58] Felicia Fortune (feliciafortune): I noticed that on the way down here.
[2015/01/05 09:58] Tor Karlsvalt: one board could be right outside this space.
[2015/01/05 09:58] Rosie Gray: yes sure... maybe I'll learn how to make them myself
[2015/01/05 09:59] Leslie Allandale: How would we monitor a mail box?
[2015/01/05 09:59] Rosie Gray: I notice she hasn't updated the RA board yet
[2015/01/05 09:59] Tor Karlsvalt: one should be at the government house in CN.
[2015/01/05 09:59] Rosie Gray: the mail goes to the person it is addressed to
[2015/01/05 09:59] Rosie Gray: nods at Tor
[2015/01/05 09:59] Leslie Allandale: So it would need an index
[2015/01/05 09:59] Rosie Gray: no
[2015/01/05 09:59] Tor Karlsvalt: I wonder if anyone has ever used a group mailbox.
[2015/01/05 10:00] Rosie Gray: it's just a mailbox for each individual
[2015/01/05 10:00] Tor Karlsvalt: Would it be possible to make a gmail account with multiple users? Just a thought that popped into my head.
[2015/01/05 10:00] Rosie Gray: uggh
[2015/01/05 10:00] Rosie Gray: I don't want another email account, myself
[2015/01/05 10:00] Leslie Allandale: I am thinking about how a new citizen would inform the Commission that it was requiring an inspection
[2015/01/05 10:00] Rosie Gray: I already have 6 emails
[2015/01/05 10:01] Rosie Gray: it would be possible to set one up and have it forwarded to individual emails though.. maybe
[2015/01/05 10:01] Tor Karlsvalt: Maybe that info should be in a nc the Hippo box could give.
[2015/01/05 10:01] Leslie Allandale: It would be include in the covenants..
[2015/01/05 10:02] Leslie Allandale: included
[2015/01/05 10:02] Rosie Gray: well first we need to know if we are going to be the recipients of it or not
[2015/01/05 10:02] Leslie Allandale: We need it in any case
[2015/01/05 10:02] Leslie Allandale: And I am confident we will be recipients..
[2015/01/05 10:02] Rosie Gray: good morning Pip... err evening rather
[2015/01/05 10:02] Tor Karlsvalt: Hi Pip!
[2015/01/05 10:03] Leslie Allandale: Timo was on at 9, and indicated his return in 2 hours.
[2015/01/05 10:03] Widget Whiteberry: Maybe an all govt on line isplay with IM function that forwards to individuals... so a citizen can see everyone they may need to contac, including EMS
[2015/01/05 10:03] Tor Karlsvalt: /me looks at this cloister and wonders if someone could make some nice arches and columns.
[2015/01/05 10:04] Leslie Allandale: But I am not sure about Shep and Anti
[2015/01/05 10:04] Rosie Gray: lol, let's not get ahead of ourselves Tor ;)
[2015/01/05 10:04] Widget Whiteberry: Here's your RA, SC, Exec, LUC
[2015/01/05 10:04] Rosie Gray: don't think I haven't thought of it!
[2015/01/05 10:04] Leslie Allandale: If it is not an official meeting, perhaps we can discuss the matters on the agenda anyway.
2015/01/05 10:05] Leslie Allandale: There is Timo
[2015/01/05 10:05] Timo Gufler: hi all :)
[2015/01/05 10:07] Rosie Gray: hmmm... so Shep isn't here or anti
[2015/01/05 10:07] Leslie Allandale: Did the RA except Josie's resignation?
[2015/01/05 10:07] Tor Karlsvalt: And Shep isn't even online.
[2015/01/05 10:07] Timo Gufler: that's rare
[2015/01/05 10:08] Tor Karlsvalt: Well it was not on the agenda at the last meeting. I think we learned of it too late.
[2015/01/05 10:08] Rosie Gray: I don't think the RA discussed Josie's resignation at the RA meeting
[2015/01/05 10:08] Tor Karlsvalt: No we didn't
[2015/01/05 10:08] Tor Karlsvalt: Should have.
[2015/01/05 10:08] Rosie Gray: in any case, we can't pretend she didn't resign
[2015/01/05 10:09] Tor Karlsvalt: If I am correct she was a an at large member.
[2015/01/05 10:09] Leslie Allandale: Yes,
[2015/01/05 10:09] Tor Karlsvalt: I will suggest that the LRA ask for volunteers.
[2015/01/05 10:10] Leslie Allandale: I will be very limited in my sl, as well, so that should be addressed
[2015/01/05 10:10] alial Allen: is offline.
[2015/01/05 10:10] Tor Karlsvalt: Well you can still be a member tho, right Les?
[2015/01/05 10:10] Leslie Allandale: Yes
[2015/01/05 10:11] Tor Karlsvalt: So we need one member.
[2015/01/05 10:11] SDolphin: is offline.
[2015/01/05 10:11] Rosie Gray: from the RA
[2015/01/05 10:11] Leslie Allandale: I am not planning on abandoning CDS, though Purple is on its way out. *sob
[2015/01/05 10:11] Rosie Gray: well... nominated by the RA
[2015/01/05 10:11] Tor Karlsvalt: perhaps some of you could campaign for possible volunteers.
[2015/01/05 10:11] Tor Karlsvalt: oh too bad.
[2015/01/05 10:11] Leslie Allandale: I heard Em mentioned
[2015/01/05 10:11] Rosie Gray: that's too bad Les
[2015/01/05 10:12] Rosie Gray: anyone present interested?
[2015/01/05 10:12] Leslie Allandale: Could someone ask Em?
[2015/01/05 10:12] Timo Gufler: Em mentioned what?
[2015/01/05 10:12] Tor Karlsvalt: EM would be good. Level head. Not dramatic, good sense of style.
[2015/01/05 10:12] Leslie Allandale: I heard her mentioned as a commissioner
[2015/01/05 10:12] Timo Gufler: oh yes, sorry ... she would be great
[2015/01/05 10:12] Rosie Gray: she would be good
[2015/01/05 10:12] Widget Whiteberry: Or Ariel Lancaster
[2015/01/05 10:12] Leslie Allandale: Does someone know her?
[2015/01/05 10:12] Rosie Gray: I know Em
[2015/01/05 10:12] Timo Gufler: /me shakes his head
[2015/01/05 10:13] Timo Gufler: I know Em too but not Ariel
[2015/01/05 10:13] Rosie Gray: I don't really know Ariel
[2015/01/05 10:13] Widget Whiteberry: Timo, what's your thought?
[2015/01/05 10:13] Tor Karlsvalt: Well I talk to EM a bit. if I see here I wll, but Timo or Pip are in her time zone.
[2015/01/05 10:13] Tor Karlsvalt: Ariel is good too.
[2015/01/05 10:13] Leslie Allandale: I met Em, and liked both her style and attitude..
[2015/01/05 10:13] Widget Whiteberry: Delia thought Ariel would be good
[2015/01/05 10:13] Widget Whiteberry: I like Em too
[2015/01/05 10:13] Leslie Allandale: Let's ask both.
[2015/01/05 10:13] Rosie Gray: I think either would be
[2015/01/05 10:13] Timo Gufler: Em's attitude is good, as much as I know her ... and she is a RL artist too
[2015/01/05 10:13] Rosie Gray: just don't know Ariel
[2015/01/05 10:14] Tor Karlsvalt: Ariel is great.
[2015/01/05 10:14] Leslie Allandale: Tor, you know both?
[2015/01/05 10:14] Tor Karlsvalt: Very into journalism I think .
[2015/01/05 10:14] Tor Karlsvalt: yes
[2015/01/05 10:14] Rosie Gray: yes she's a marvelous artist, and also she has done really good job with her own parcels of land
[2015/01/05 10:14] Rosie Gray: which personally I think is a great indicator
[2015/01/05 10:14] Tor Karlsvalt: Em has yes.
[2015/01/05 10:14] Leslie Allandale: Can you take on the task of talking with them?
[2015/01/05 10:14] Tor Karlsvalt: Oh I can sure
[2015/01/05 10:14] Rosie Gray: I'll talk to Em
[2015/01/05 10:15] Leslie Allandale: Done, tyvm
[2015/01/05 10:15] Tor Karlsvalt: see who is interested.
[2015/01/05 10:15] Leslie Allandale: Yes.....
[2015/01/05 10:15] Leslie Allandale: great
[2015/01/05 10:15] Leslie Allandale: Next
[2015/01/05 10:15] Leslie Allandale: We have had no response to designing the new sim
[2015/01/05 10:15] Rosie Gray: Gaius is preparing a design
[2015/01/05 10:15] Leslie Allandale: And Timo?
[2015/01/05 10:15] Timo Gufler: Me too, yes
[2015/01/05 10:15] Rosie Gray: and Timo, you have one, yes?
[2015/01/05 10:15] Tor Karlsvalt: yes Gaius has a nice model.
[2015/01/05 10:16] Timo Gufler: I have a draft but parcel layout should be added to it
[2015/01/05 10:16] Rosie Gray: I don't think Gaius' is ready yet though, beyond concept
[2015/01/05 10:16] Leslie Allandale: If there is a conflict, Delia will submit the proposal..
[2015/01/05 10:16] Tor Karlsvalt: Perhaps we could invite them to rezz the models here in the garden or behind us in the cloister.
[2015/01/05 10:16] Rosie Gray: well Les, I did draft up how we should approach this
[2015/01/05 10:17] Rosie Gray: to make sure it is fair
[2015/01/05 10:17] Leslie Allandale: Can someone be in charge of moving that process along?
[2015/01/05 10:17] Leslie Allandale: Ms, Gray?
[2015/01/05 10:17] Rosie Gray: sure
[2015/01/05 10:17] Leslie Allandale: TY
[2015/01/05 10:18] Leslie Allandale: I would ask the Commissioners to look at the proposed Covenant changes
[2015/01/05 10:18] Leslie Allandale: Do you have a link, Widget
[2015/01/05 10:18] Widget Whiteberry: I can grab it
[2015/01/05 10:18] Leslie Allandale: Well, it is posted to the forum in a couple of places
[2015/01/05 10:19] Tor Karlsvalt: yes, they look good.
[2015/01/05 10:19] Rosie Gray: ... sp=sharing
[2015/01/05 10:19] Leslie Allandale: I think it is mostly for Timo, but if Tor could give us his opinion, that would be great
[2015/01/05 10:19] Widget Whiteberry: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6271
[2015/01/05 10:20] Leslie Allandale: I was ecstatic over the changed, personally
[2015/01/05 10:20] Widget Whiteberry: I appreciated Timo's thoought on the z for air builds and also particles
[2015/01/05 10:20] Leslie Allandale: Super
[2015/01/05 10:20] Widget Whiteberry: I've a question
[2015/01/05 10:20] Leslie Allandale: shoot
[2015/01/05 10:21] Tor Karlsvalt: I think it is a good idea generally. This was long overdue and the current individual covenants have been an impediment to making our sims one estate under the eyes of LL and Estate Controls.
[2015/01/05 10:21] Rosie Gray: hi Calli
[2015/01/05 10:21] Widget Whiteberry: should we treat the general covenant separate from the region specific covenants? Pass he general and then look at the regiona, or wait and do them all torgether?
[2015/01/05 10:22] Rosie Gray: /me tries not to look up
[2015/01/05 10:22] Widget Whiteberry: I'm kind of hoping we can rationalize the zoning codes
[2015/01/05 10:22] Leslie Allandale: Woah, Calli
[2015/01/05 10:23] Leslie Allandale: Can we make a universal covenant, referring to zoning, and give the zoning as a separate nc
[2015/01/05 10:23] Rosie Gray: well, when it comes to doing the actual updates on the regions, it is Sudane who has to do them
[2015/01/05 10:23] Widget Whiteberry: how we give people the info is a separate question
[2015/01/05 10:23] Tor Karlsvalt: I think that would work Les.
[2015/01/05 10:23] Rosie Gray: if we don't approve them all at once, then she will have to repeat her work to do the updates
[2015/01/05 10:23] Timo Gufler: some regions have quite special rules, like Monastery
[2015/01/05 10:23] Rosie Gray: so that should be a consideration
[2015/01/05 10:24] Tor Karlsvalt: Perhaps special rules should be posted someplace on each sim.
[2015/01/05 10:24] Timo Gufler: we could have a common part and region-specific part in the covenants
[2015/01/05 10:24] Callipygian Christensen: sorry for late arrival so I may have missed this already - Sudane made it quite clear that she'd appreciate any change to covenants allowing for a single estate
[2015/01/05 10:25] Rosie Gray: yes, that's what we are working on Timo
[2015/01/05 10:25] Leslie Allandale: We are coming to that conclusion
[2015/01/05 10:25] Tor Karlsvalt: I agree Calli.
[2015/01/05 10:25] Tor Karlsvalt: Special rules need to be out of the covenant that is part of the land info.
[2015/01/05 10:26] Widget Whiteberry: Timo, as Josie has stepped down from this effort, would you be willing to step in?
[2015/01/05 10:26] Tor Karlsvalt: There should be a reference to refer to a web page and or a place where the covenants are handed out.
[2015/01/05 10:26] Rosie Gray: the only way to do that would be to either include everything for all regions in the covenant, or to only have the general covenant in the about land and links to the individual regional covenants
[2015/01/05 10:26] Callipygian Christensen: A simple covenant page that says 'You MUST read these covenants as they address buildings and land use, with URLs to web pages has always seemed such a no-brainer
[2015/01/05 10:26] Widget Whiteberry: I agree Tor
[2015/01/05 10:26] Tor Karlsvalt: The Hippo boxes could hand out NCs with special rules.
[2015/01/05 10:27] Timo Gufler: Sorry, what is the role at issue?
[2015/01/05 10:27] Widget Whiteberry: Web pages are essential ..... Timo, reviewing and reworking these covenenats
[2015/01/05 10:27] Tor Karlsvalt: For sims to be officailly grouped as an estate by LL, they must have the same covenant.
[2015/01/05 10:27] Widget Whiteberry: with me, Coop and Rosie
[2015/01/05 10:27] Leslie Allandale: Timo would you be willing to work with Widget?
[2015/01/05 10:27] Tor Karlsvalt: This helps with estate controls.
[2015/01/05 10:27] Leslie Allandale: As rep of the Commission?
[2015/01/05 10:28] Callipygian Christensen: No Tor..they must have the same info on the covenant tab I beilieve..that is not the same thing :)
[2015/01/05 10:28] Leslie Allandale: Yes, Calli is right
[2015/01/05 10:28] Rosie Gray: yes
[2015/01/05 10:28] Leslie Allandale: One issue is what is on the covenant tab
[2015/01/05 10:28] Tor Karlsvalt: I think that is basically what I said.
[2015/01/05 10:28] Timo Gufler: It's an interesting subject and working with Widget would be fine ... I'm just bit concerned, that after accepting it, I would sit on quite many seats...
[2015/01/05 10:28] Rosie Gray: it's what I said too, lol
[2015/01/05 10:28] Leslie Allandale: The other issue is what zoning will be
[2015/01/05 10:29] Leslie Allandale: So, what I hear is that we have one text for the covenant tab
[2015/01/05 10:29] Rosie Gray: yes
[2015/01/05 10:30] Leslie Allandale: And another text for zoning requirements on a parce
[2015/01/05 10:30] Widget Whiteberry: /me nods
[2015/01/05 10:30] Leslie Allandale: parcel
[2015/01/05 10:30] Leslie Allandale: Does everyone here agree??
[2015/01/05 10:30] Rosie Gray: that is what we need
[2015/01/05 10:30] Widget Whiteberry: And another text for zoning requirements on a region*
[2015/01/05 10:30] Leslie Allandale: Widget?
[2015/01/05 10:30] Leslie Allandale: yes
[2015/01/05 10:30] Tor Karlsvalt: I think that is the way to go.
[2015/01/05 10:30] Leslie Allandale: Anyone not agree?
[2015/01/05 10:31] Leslie Allandale: This is an informal meeting, so everyone is invited to participate
[2015/01/05 10:31] Widget Whiteberry: Zoning info would be in the region tex
[2015/01/05 10:31] Widget Whiteberry: text
[2015/01/05 10:31] Leslie Allandale: But it would not appear in the covenant tab
[2015/01/05 10:31] Rosie Gray: just links to all of them
[2015/01/05 10:32] Leslie Allandale: Yes
[2015/01/05 10:32] Tor Karlsvalt: The local rules/zoning would not.
[2015/01/05 10:32] Leslie Allandale: yes
[2015/01/05 10:32] Tor Karlsvalt: But a reference to the local rules must.
[2015/01/05 10:32] Widget Whiteberry: just a link... and notecards would be -- I think -- more effective if handed out by commissioners or EMs or Executive staff
[2015/01/05 10:32] Widget Whiteberry: more likely to be read
[2015/01/05 10:32] Leslie Allandale: The issue is that the text that appears in the covenant tab is uniform, am I right?
[2015/01/05 10:32] Rosie Gray: they would still have to be included in the Hippos though Widget
[2015/01/05 10:33] Tor Karlsvalt: yes Les
[2015/01/05 10:33] Leslie Allandale: good
[2015/01/05 10:33] Tor Karlsvalt: Hi Garnet
[2015/01/05 10:33] Widget Whiteberry: yes, Les, yes, Rosie
[2015/01/05 10:33] Rosie Gray: hello Garnet ㋡
[2015/01/05 10:33] Garnet Psaltery: Hello everyone
[2015/01/05 10:33] Leslie Allandale: Ms, Psaltery, welcome
[2015/01/05 10:33] Widget Whiteberry: ••••••••••
[2015/01/05 10:33] Garnet Psaltery: smiles
[2015/01/05 10:33] Tor Karlsvalt: The NCs could be part of an official welcome package.
[2015/01/05 10:34] Rosie Gray: didn't Ceasar claim that someone was making welcome packages, for months... never saw one
[2015/01/05 10:34] Tor Karlsvalt: hmmm, I think so.
[2015/01/05 10:35] Tor Karlsvalt: To be fair that has been on every Chancellor's agenda for years.
[2015/01/05 10:35] Timo Gufler: the welcome package notecards should be simple and short to read, if possible
[2015/01/05 10:35] Timo Gufler: as well as information at infohub(s)
[2015/01/05 10:35] Rosie Gray: the Kiosks?
[2015/01/05 10:35] Timo Gufler: I'm thinking of Anzere
[2015/01/05 10:35] Tor Karlsvalt: for sure the kiosks.
[2015/01/05 10:36] Callipygian Christensen: Isnt this moving into distribution vs 'what should the covenants say'?
[2015/01/05 10:36] Rosie Gray: yes it is
[2015/01/05 10:36] Widget Whiteberry: yup
[2015/01/05 10:36] Tor Karlsvalt: Wouldn't be hard to have a button to give our covenant info.
[2015/01/05 10:36] Widget Whiteberry: Is there more to say about content?
[2015/01/05 10:37] Rosie Gray: the individual covenants still need to be worked on
[2015/01/05 10:37] Rosie Gray: and of course, it all has to go too the RA to be passed
[2015/01/05 10:37] Rosie Gray: go to*
[2015/01/05 10:37] Widget Whiteberry: Are we trying for a consistent set of zoning? (even though not all zones woould apply to all regions)
[2015/01/05 10:38] Timo Gufler: Alpine Meadows has a blend from Alpine to Roman actually
[2015/01/05 10:38] Tor Karlsvalt: um, it would be nice if we keep to the same terminology.
[2015/01/05 10:39] Rosie Gray: I agree
[2015/01/05 10:39] Tor Karlsvalt: maybe R for residential, RU for rural, B for business, BR for mixed.
[2015/01/05 10:39] Tor Karlsvalt: something like that.
[2015/01/05 10:39] Timo Gufler: what would be the difference between R and RU?
[2015/01/05 10:40] Tor Karlsvalt: Well I would think the amount of open space required.
[2015/01/05 10:40] Rosie Gray: currently some of the parcels are referenced with regard to their actual parcel name on the Hippos attached
[2015/01/05 10:40] Rosie Gray: and some parcels are mixed use, residential/commercial
[2015/01/05 10:40] Callipygian Christensen: Both CN and NFS have different rules for city/rural areas, so some way to tell apart is needed
[2015/01/05 10:41] Rosie Gray: nods
[2015/01/05 10:41] Timo Gufler: true
[2015/01/05 10:41] Tor Karlsvalt: Yes well I was just suggesting that the same codes be used through out CDS.
[2015/01/05 10:41] Rosie Gray: but this is why we have separate covenants for each region
[2015/01/05 10:41] Callipygian Christensen: /me nods to Tor
[2015/01/05 10:41] Tor Karlsvalt: So if one, for instance sees, RU, they know it is rural.
[2015/01/05 10:42] Tor Karlsvalt: What that codes are I leave to you guys
[2015/01/05 10:42] Leslie Allandale: I too thought it a good idea to make common zoning classifications.
[2015/01/05 10:42] Leslie Allandale: for all regions
[2015/01/05 10:42] Timo Gufler: nods
[2015/01/05 10:42] Leslie Allandale: But didn't want to make too much work for the law review
[2015/01/05 10:43] Tor Karlsvalt: Well it would help I think
[2015/01/05 10:43] Tor Karlsvalt: avoid confusion.
[2015/01/05 10:43] Tor Karlsvalt: And thus less drama
[2015/01/05 10:43] Tor Karlsvalt: :)
[2015/01/05 10:43] Leslie Allandale: an less misunderstanding for new owners
[2015/01/05 10:44] Leslie Allandale: Who won't want to wade through extensive verbiage.
[2015/01/05 10:44] Timo Gufler: My impression is, that most of new parcel owners don't read the covenants
[2015/01/05 10:44] Timo Gufler: same was as people don't read terms of services either
[2015/01/05 10:44] Timo Gufler: *same way
[2015/01/05 10:44] Tor Karlsvalt: nods @ Timo
[2015/01/05 10:45] Leslie Allandale: So, perhaps could provide a meeting for new owners to attend.
[2015/01/05 10:45] Tor Karlsvalt: Just one of those things you have to check to use the service.
[2015/01/05 10:45] Callipygian Christensen: I thnink most don't read them because they are 42 pages long :) This is the pintI think, to make it easier for them to do so.
[2015/01/05 10:45] Timo Gufler: Or just a tutor
[2015/01/05 10:45] Tor Karlsvalt: Yup, I agree with Calli.
[2015/01/05 10:45] Leslie Allandale: yes, a tutor would be good
[2015/01/05 10:45] Rosie Gray: this is where the EM's have traditionally helped out
[2015/01/05 10:45] Tor Karlsvalt: Almost need a lawyer to plant a tree.
[2015/01/05 10:46] Felicia Fortune (feliciafortune): lol
[2015/01/05 10:46] Leslie Allandale: good that you have perms, tor
[2015/01/05 10:46] Timo Gufler: EM's would be great tutors :)
[2015/01/05 10:46] Leslie Allandale: If they had the time and patience
[2015/01/05 10:46] Rosie Gray: as long as the Chancellor permits it
[2015/01/05 10:46] Rosie Gray: right now he seems to want nobody to talk about covenants to people
[2015/01/05 10:46] Garnet Psaltery: I'm trying to remember what a person gets when they buy a plot of land - do they get a brief covenant extract for that region?
[2015/01/05 10:47] Felicia Fortune (feliciafortune): As a new person, I got nothing.
[2015/01/05 10:47] Widget Whiteberry: is there anything else about content?
[2015/01/05 10:47] Rosie Gray: right now they have to read the covenant in the About Land tab, Garnet
[2015/01/05 10:47] Leslie Allandale: No, covenant is in the "about land"
[2015/01/05 10:47] Garnet Psaltery: Yes that's far too long
[2015/01/05 10:47] Rosie Gray: yes it is
[2015/01/05 10:47] Rosie Gray: even for the determined
[2015/01/05 10:47] Tor Karlsvalt: No, really I don't think they get the complete covenant. They are so long.
[2015/01/05 10:47] Timo Gufler: when buying a parcel, they have to accept the covenant
[2015/01/05 10:47] Rosie Gray: yes
[2015/01/05 10:47] Pip Torok: imo we shd stress from the outset what we feel is important (covenants) but without fuss
[2015/01/05 10:48] Rosie Gray: or else the Hippo won't accept your payment
[2015/01/05 10:48] Widget Whiteberry: **IS there anything else about content?**
[2015/01/05 10:48] Garnet Psaltery: I think it would be handy to have a note delivered on purchase relevant to where they are, as an extra
[2015/01/05 10:48] Rosie Gray: I think there is, Garnet
[2015/01/05 10:48] Rosie Gray: from the Hippo
[2015/01/05 10:48] Garnet Psaltery: Ah ok
[2015/01/05 10:48] Felicia Fortune (feliciafortune): I think that for anyone coming in to CDS, it's pretty obvious that there are strict rules about building.
[2015/01/05 10:49] Tor Karlsvalt: Well we could go back to that old idea they had at the beginning where everyone submitted a NC to a notary where they testified that they would uphold the covenant.
[2015/01/05 10:49] Tor Karlsvalt: But that faded away I think cuz it was too much work.
2015/01/05 10:49] Timo Gufler: Should we have some kind of "abstract" in the beginning of the covenant?
[2015/01/05 10:49] Rosie Gray: let's not go there, Tor
[2015/01/05 10:49] Tor Karlsvalt: :)
[2015/01/05 10:49] Rosie Gray: there is, Timo
[2015/01/05 10:49] Pip Torok: imo it wd drive off newcomers
[2015/01/05 10:49] Callipygian Christensen: Ok, maybe I wasn't clear - is distibution of covenants part of the LUCs work right now, or is revisiting the actual covenant wording the task at hand?
[2015/01/05 10:50] Timo Gufler: Oh, I have not read it clearly then, Rosie ... lol
[2015/01/05 10:50] Rosie Gray: IMPORTANT: read and understand these covenants BEFORE purchasing this land.
[2015/01/05 10:50] Leslie Allandale: they are inter rellated, Callli
[2015/01/05 10:50] Pip Torok: agrees with Rosie's approach
[2015/01/05 10:51] Felicia Fortune (feliciafortune): Isn't that pretty universal when buying land in SL? When you buy land you agree to whatever rules the estate has?
[2015/01/05 10:52] Pip Torok: it certainly is in IWZ
[2015/01/05 10:52] Rosie Gray: except if it is on the mainland, yes I think so
[2015/01/05 10:52] Felicia Fortune (feliciafortune): People are going to build what they are going to build and it only becomes a problem when someone else complains.
[2015/01/05 10:52] Tor Karlsvalt: It is Felicia. I think most buy land with the intention of following covenants.
[2015/01/05 10:52] Leslie Allandale: But many get upset because it wasn't clear
[2015/01/05 10:52] Felicia Fortune (feliciafortune): So what?
[2015/01/05 10:52] Felicia Fortune (feliciafortune): You can't force people to read. Period
[2015/01/05 10:53] Felicia Fortune (feliciafortune): People get upset all the time.
[2015/01/05 10:53] Tor Karlsvalt: True Leslie. I think most look at their neighbor and just do what they do. Some push it.
[2015/01/05 10:53] Pip Torok: if its not clear, then imo thats OUR problem
[2015/01/05 10:53] Rosie Gray: all we can do is make it as clear as possible and if people don't read it, well it's their own fault
[2015/01/05 10:53] Rosie Gray: I agree with Felicia
[2015/01/05 10:53] Pip Torok: if they just cant read, its theirs
[2015/01/05 10:53] Timo Gufler: EMs should ensure, that people have understood the covenants
[2015/01/05 10:53] Rosie Gray: I agree Timo
[2015/01/05 10:53] Felicia Fortune (feliciafortune): How, Timo?
[2015/01/05 10:53] Felicia Fortune (feliciafortune): Give them a quiz?
[2015/01/05 10:53] Leslie Allandale: that is asking a lot of them, isn't it?
[2015/01/05 10:53] Rosie Gray: by talking to them
[2015/01/05 10:54] Timo Gufler: by contacting them after the purchase
[2015/01/05 10:54] Timo Gufler: and maybe by supervising their parcel development silently
[2015/01/05 10:54] Rosie Gray: well if you greet someone new and at least make sure they know that they are expected to follow the covenants
[2015/01/05 10:54] Leslie Allandale: lol, Felicia, I like that, a quiz
[2015/01/05 10:54] Tor Karlsvalt: And our problem is that our various covenants need to be consolidated into one overall covenant to make us an estate.
[2015/01/05 10:54] Rosie Gray: you can answer their questions
[2015/01/05 10:54] Rosie Gray: ... sp=sharing
[2015/01/05 10:54] Rosie Gray: here is a draft for NFS specific covenants
[2015/01/05 10:55] Rosie Gray: much simplified from the existing verbage
[2015/01/05 10:55] Timo Gufler: /me likes the inclusions of maximum building height
[2015/01/05 10:56] Rosie Gray: that used to be there Timo, but the last time that the covenant was revised it was missed :(
[2015/01/05 10:56] Timo Gufler: that was unfortunate...
[2015/01/05 10:57] Pip Torok: it WOULD avoid skyscraper Fachwerke in NFS
[2015/01/05 10:57] Felicia Fortune (feliciafortune): lol
[2015/01/05 10:57] Timo Gufler: exactly, Pip
[2015/01/05 10:57] Tor Karlsvalt: You know tho, they do build some crazy fachwerk.
[2015/01/05 10:57] Rosie Gray: in reality, yes
[2015/01/05 10:58] Rosie Gray: but we have to keep some scale that is workable for SL
[2015/01/05 10:58] Felicia Fortune (feliciafortune): If everyone is so worried about people's build, why don't you make them submit a buidilng plan before they can build, just like RL?
[2015/01/05 10:58] Tor Karlsvalt: Well that is a good point, Rosie.
[2015/01/05 10:58] Pip Torok: (in reality don't they fall down?:)
[2015/01/05 10:58] Tor Karlsvalt: if it looks like it doesn't fit, then don't build it.
[2015/01/05 10:58] Leslie Allandale: That is what I would do, Felicia
[2015/01/05 10:58] Rosie Gray: don't we kind of have that, as an option?
[2015/01/05 10:58] Callipygian Christensen: Felicia - the covenantssay all buildings must be approved by the Chancellor - so in effect that exists
[2015/01/05 10:59] Felicia Fortune (feliciafortune): Isn't the approach now, let them build, then wait for it to be rejected?
[2015/01/05 10:59] Timo Gufler: It's pretty unwise to start building a house without reading the covenant
[2015/01/05 10:59] Leslie Allandale: It is true
[2015/01/05 10:59] Tor Karlsvalt: /me nods
[2015/01/05 10:59] Leslie Allandale: If the Chancellor fails to inspect, it is approved
[2015/01/05 10:59] Felicia Fortune (feliciafortune): and you wonder why you have problems!
[2015/01/05 10:59] Rosie Gray: yes, for people who don't read the covenants
[2015/01/05 10:59] Garnet Psaltery: Not sure about that - if I can't build to fit then I go shopping and plonk something down
[2015/01/05 10:59] Leslie Allandale: So, no, it isn't what we have
[2015/01/05 10:59] Garnet Psaltery: The main thing is to have somewhere to live
[2015/01/05 11:00] Tor Karlsvalt: /me nods at Garnet
[2015/01/05 11:00] Leslie Allandale: so true
[2015/01/05 11:00] Pip Torok: how about a skybox approach .. the build is on the skybox and then is (not) allowed down?
[2015/01/05 11:01] Garnet Psaltery: That's what I do if I build - it's a good way to do it
[2015/01/05 11:01] Leslie Allandale: The main point is balancing what an individual wants on her parcel, with what the neighbors want to look at..
[2015/01/05 11:01] Rosie Gray: ... sp=sharing
[2015/01/05 11:01] Rosie Gray: here is a link to the draft for approving buildings
[2015/01/05 11:01] Duet Parx: is offline.
[2015/01/05 11:01] Rosie Gray: but currently, we don't have agreement on it
[2015/01/05 11:02] Callipygian Christensen: So part of the Covenant Tab info needs to be a link to that document - how to go about building and getting approval
[2015/01/05 11:02] Leslie Allandale: Yes, Calli
[2015/01/05 11:02] Leslie Allandale: Exactly
[2015/01/05 11:02] Garnet Psaltery: That reads well
[2015/01/05 11:02] Rosie Gray: but first we need to have agreement that this is how we'll do it... or amendments to whatever needs be
[2015/01/05 11:02] Widget Whiteberry: Calli, I'm hoping for a Covenant tab on the CDS website
[2015/01/05 11:03] Garnet Psaltery: How will you get agreement?
[2015/01/05 11:03] Tor Karlsvalt: /me seems to be having problems opening google docs atm.
[2015/01/05 11:03] Rosie Gray: there is a covenants tab on the website Widget
[2015/01/05 11:03] Callipygian Christensen: Basic : this is what CDS is. Then 'Covenants and zoning rulles apply to all regions, they can be found here: You MUST read the covenants to ensure your buildings and use are permitted.
[2015/01/05 11:03] Widget Whiteberry: Rosie, it's buried
[2015/01/05 11:04] Callipygian Christensen: I am speaking about the Covenant tab on the 'About Estate' - the one people read and agree to when buying land
[2015/01/05 11:04] Rosie Gray: it can easily be moved
[2015/01/05 11:04] Widget Whiteberry: Calli, yes
[2015/01/05 11:04] Rosie Gray: but before any of that, we need agreement on what the Covenants will be, and what the procedure will be for building inspections
[2015/01/05 11:04] Tor Karlsvalt: I agree Calli that is basically what they need to be.
[2015/01/05 11:05] Tor Karlsvalt: And that should be in the first five lines.
[2015/01/05 11:05] Tor Karlsvalt: it one needs to scroll to read it, for get it.
[2015/01/05 11:05] Rosie Gray: it's right at the top in the new proposed overall covenant
[2015/01/05 11:06] Rosie Gray: CDS Estate Covenant
IMPORTANT: read and understand these covenants BEFORE purchasing this land.
[2015/01/05 11:07] Timo Gufler: don't people see similar phrases when accepting terms of services, and still they skip reading them
[2015/01/05 11:07] Tor Karlsvalt: And the next item should mention the local zoning rules and where they can be found.
[2015/01/05 11:07] Rosie Gray: yes Timo, ultimately it is up to the individual
[2015/01/05 11:07] Timo Gufler: of course
[2015/01/05 11:07] Rosie Gray: I agree Tor, but we need to get them drafted up first
[2015/01/05 11:08] Leslie Allandale: So, we owe a huge thank you to Widget
[2015/01/05 11:08] Leslie Allandale: And an offer of more help.
[2015/01/05 11:08] Timo Gufler: yes
[2015/01/05 11:08] Tor Karlsvalt: Yay! Widget!
[2015/01/05 11:08] Garnet Psaltery: :o)
[2015/01/05 11:08] Leslie Allandale: Can we move on?
[2015/01/05 11:09] Tor Karlsvalt: /me gets more coffee
[2015/01/05 11:09] Callipygian Christensen: Wouldn't it be more efficient for someone to draw up a sample Covenant tab text taking these discussions into account and then go from there - adding in the URLs to the location of Overall covenants and each sim covenant as they are completed, and then the whole package can go to RA for approval? That helps Sudane and simplifies finding the relevant covenant info for buyers??
[2015/01/05 11:09] Widget Whiteberry: Calli, that's the plan
[2015/01/05 11:09] Leslie Allandale: I think that is where we are heading
[2015/01/05 11:09] Garnet Psaltery: /me makes apologies while exiting to RL
[2015/01/05 11:09] Leslie Allandale: But good to clarify
[2015/01/05 11:09] Rosie Gray: need the rest of the covenants first
[2015/01/05 11:10] Catz Jewell Lane (catz.jewell): is online.
[2015/01/05 11:10] Rosie Gray: bye Garnet ㋡
[2015/01/05 11:10] Callipygian Christensen: So who is doing that?
[2015/01/05 11:10] Widget Whiteberry: I think that's me Calli
[2015/01/05 11:10] Widget Whiteberry: and I will then share it with the team
[2015/01/05 11:10] Leslie Allandale: yes in concert with the Commission
[2015/01/05 11:11] Tor Karlsvalt: /me foresees a bust of Widget in Covenant Hall.
[2015/01/05 11:11] Widget Whiteberry: << busted
[2015/01/05 11:11] Pip Torok: :)
[2015/01/05 11:11] Tor Karlsvalt: :)
[2015/01/05 11:11] Widget Whiteberry: Calli - that's why I've been asking if there is more to be said about content
[2015/01/05 11:12] Widget Whiteberry: though I appreciate some of the thinking about distribution
[2015/01/05 11:12] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): is online.
[2015/01/05 11:13] Leslie Allandale: If we can each get a link to the documents and make our comments in writing, that would be good
[2015/01/05 11:13] Leslie Allandale: It is imperative that we resolve this soon
[2015/01/05 11:13] Leslie Allandale: Can we move on?
[2015/01/05 11:13] Widget Whiteberry: done
[2015/01/05 11:13] Rosie Gray: yes please
[2015/01/05 11:13] Leslie Allandale: I have been in a conversation with the Chancellor regarding the Commission overstepping its authority and not being transparent enough
[2015/01/05 11:14] Leslie Allandale: For the first, I would ask the RA to give us some guidance
[2015/01/05 11:14] Leslie Allandale: Does anyone have other comments?
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