[15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hello Bells, welcome!...
[15:37] Jon Seattle: Hi Bells
[15:37] Bells Semyorka: Hi Everyone!
[15:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: there is a notecard with the agenda inside the urn,
[15:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: although we won't be able to even scratch the surface of it hehe
[15:37] Bells Semyorka: thanks Gwyn
[15:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's more like hmm a "general plan" for the forthcoming sessions I guess.
[15:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well thanks all for coming 
Commissions have no quorum, so we can start whenever we wish 
[15:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd like to ask if any of you have been at Beathan's sessions when he chaired them... I was just at one sadly
[15:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll take the silence as a) you've all crashed (or I did) or b) nobody attended those sessions?
[15:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn *giggles*
[15:39] Jon Seattle: A couple.
[15:39] Jon Seattle: I don't remember anything realy conclusive however. Some interesting discussion.
[15:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah great Jon — so perhaps you could fill us in about what has been covered so far?...
[15:40] Jon Seattle: Well, the main topic of disccsion was the "no peeking" bill and procedural constraints on how elections are administered.
[15:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (the one I attended was pretty unconclusive, and definitely just vague, disconnected ideas and discussion of past elections)
[15:40] Moon Adamant: back
[15:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: wb Moonie .)
[15:40] Moon Adamant: hi Bells
[15:40] Jon Seattle: wb
[15:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, we do have the "no peeking" bill now...
[15:40] Bells Semyorka smiles, Hi Moon
[15:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What procedural constrains were discussed?
[15:41] Jon Seattle: There were about four versions -- all with varying provisions.
[15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh! Were they posted?
[15:41] Jon Seattle: yes, at great length.
[15:41] Jon Seattle: the transcript was not however.
[15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ouch... so I ought to read them ))))
[15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well. At least it's something to work with!
[15:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn makes note to self: look these "procedural constraints" up.
[15:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Since I didn't do my homework, I'd suggest we'll discuss them on the next session?
[15:42] Moon Adamant: fine by me
[15:42] Jon Seattle: yes. Basically NuCARE was arguing that the techincal administator should not have access to results.
[15:43] Jon Seattle: Its a good idea, more or less, but not practical
[15:43] Moon Adamant: hmmm
[15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, that's a good point.
[15:43] Moon Adamant: unpratical, i would agree
[15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hello Sonja, welcome!
[15:43] Sonja Strom: Hi
[15:43] Jon Seattle: Hi Sonja
[15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (the agenda is on a notecard inside the urn)
[15:43] Moon Adamant: much better to have the techniocal administrator under a NDA for the occasion
[15:43] Moon Adamant: hi Sonja
[15:43] Bells Semyorka: Hi Sonja
[15:44] Bells Semyorka: may I ask a question
[15:44] Jon Seattle: I posted a bill that would formalize some of the technical standards for holding elections.. keeping the server secure etc.
[15:44] Sonja Strom: ah, so you admit you have an agenda!
[15:44] Sonja Strom: heehee
[15:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and it's hidden!... in the urn ))))
[15:44] Moon Adamant: lol
[15:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure Bells! this is pretty informal
[15:44] Jon Seattle: Bells?
[15:45] Bells Semyorka: ok, Well can you please explain to me Why it is unpractical?
[15:46] Bells Semyorka: perhaps I missed something that jon mentioned in the forums.
[15:46] SL Exchange Magic Box standard: SL Exchange - Delivered item GUUD Pose Ball.
[15:46] Jon Seattle: Ah, because it is a computer program that must be run by an administrator. It is software that was developed by us, not shrink wrapped, and so it needs to be something that a technical person can check on.
[15:46] Moon Adamant: well, the technical administrator has to supervise if teh results are coming in all right, if database is up, server is up, etc
[15:46] Jon Seattle: yup
[15:46] Moon Adamant: doing that blindfolded demands more scripting
[15:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don't even know if that is possible at all...
[15:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ultimately, *someone* has access to the database
[15:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm unless all data inside is encrypted... 
[15:47] Jon Seattle: well, I do not look at detailed data ever. I do, however, look at things like system statisicts, make sure the program is running (has not stopped), and in an emergency I do look at logs.
[15:47] Bells Semyorka: have we considered asking someone that is objective to run it. Someone that is not CDS related.
[15:48] Bells Semyorka: not that im saying it was not objective
[15:48] Jon Seattle: Actually the best option would be to have the SC run it. They are pretty good.
[15:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That was discussed once, Bells
[15:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I personally have mixed feelings about it... it's like asking for the US to run the elections in the UK
[15:48] Jon Seattle: there are lots of reasons not to do that.. I have some questions that may put light on the matter
[15:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (or vice-versa)
[15:50] Jon Seattle: Bells, right now we have two programs that have been used. One written by FR and another, more recient by myself. These are not polished software as I said. They require, right now, a fair amount of technical expertise to run.
[15:50] Jon Seattle: 1. How could we share that software without risk that it might be run incorrectly or altered.
[15:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm.
[15:50] Jon Seattle: 2. How to we make sure that the outside consultant is really independant.
[15:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[15:51] Jon Seattle: 3. How much would it cost to hire such a consultant?
[15:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1. might be technically possible, but require even more development. 2. is a problem — since, by definition, an outside contractor is not under the CDS jurisdiction, and so we cannot ever bind them to a contract celebrated in the CDS. 3., of course, is an important consideration.
[15:52] Moon Adamant: i think that gwyn's and Jon's #1 run in the same seam - it is a mark of the sovereignity of the CDS that we are able to run our own electoral system
[15:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, Jon, as a rough estimate: how many hours did you work on that software?
[15:52] Justice Soothsayer: hello all
[15:52] Moon Adamant: hi Justice
[15:52] Sonja Strom: Hello Justice
[15:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Welcome, Justice! We're discussing the election software.
[15:52] Bells Semyorka: Hi Justice
[15:53] Justice Soothsayer: I trust everyone has bowed down to Jon in grateful appreciatiion!
[15:53] Jon Seattle: I would say 160 or so, plus about 8 to 10 each election.
[15:53] Jon Seattle: lol
[15:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok... so... a very rough estimate,
[15:53] Sonja Strom stands up and bows
[15:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: an independent contractor with the know-how at the level of Jon wuld hire us US$100-250/hour
[15:53] Jon Seattle: yes.
[15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, roughly, US$16k-40k
[15:54] Sonja Strom: How many Linden$?
[15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm afraid the CDS is not wealthy enough to afford that. Not yet.
[15:54] Justice Soothsayer: no wonder we do not usually budget in US $
[15:54] Jon Seattle: lol, Sonja
[15:54] Sonja Strom:
[15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 4 to 10 million L$, Sonja
[15:54] Sonja Strom: hahahaa
[15:54] CrimsonPulse Ragu gave you The Music Lamp (Human Resources).
[15:55] Sonja Strom: Just like a RL election!
[15:55] Jon Seattle: What we can and do is to make sure that all the numbers that come out of the system are double checked.
[15:55] Bells Semyorka smiles, well that is a silly amount of money to spend on a virtual election
[15:56] Jon Seattle: Every time someone votes the system fires off an email, without id, to a gmail box with the votes
[15:56] Jon Seattle: the system allows anyone to look at their votes at any time
[15:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jon, let me ask you another question... would you be willing to open source the code? That way, others could double-check the software easily and figure out it does what we expect it to do, and perhaps that way some people in the CDS would trust it more.
[15:56] Jon Seattle: the system keeps two additional records -- a transaction log and a database
[15:57] Justice Soothsayer: I believe Jon made that offer to the SC.
[15:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah, I'm sorry, I didn't know
[15:57] Jon Seattle: That was my original intention but I want also to explain one other aspect of how the system works.
[15:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (sorry to interrupt!)
[15:58] Jon Seattle: Bascially it is two programs, completly independant.
[15:58] Jon Seattle: There is the online program, that just collects raw votes, and there is a offline program (one you can run on any computer) that calculates borda scores and seat allocations.
[15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aaah
[15:59] Jon Seattle: I have not made it the practice to provide to the SC two things. A data set with the raw votes (without any id, in random order), and the actua program used to do the calculatons.
[15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[16:00] Jon Seattle: with the idea that we would give out the later when we figure out the issues with maintaining privacy.
[16:00] Jon Seattle: that way everyone can test the program, give it to others to examine, etc.
[16:01] Justice Soothsayer: uh, jon, you said "not made it the practice"
[16:01] Jon Seattle: *now
[16:01] Jon Seattle: sorry
[16:01] Justice Soothsayer:
[16:01] Justice Soothsayer: nasty typo, that.
[16:01] Jon Seattle: I have been doing this every election for the past two.
[16:01] Jon Seattle: lol
[16:01] Jon Seattle: I did not even notice.
[16:01] Justice Soothsayer: *now even notice
[16:01] Justice Soothsayer:
[16:01] Jon Seattle laughs
[16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[16:02] Moon Adamant: pffff
[16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn hands over a brand new keyboard to Jon
[16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok Jon
[16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, I think we could safely recommend one thing at this point: that the "voting software" hands out the raw data to the SC, for instance
[16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and each member of the SC could do their own calculations
[16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Alternative: that each leader of each faction gets the raw data as well.
[16:03] Moon Adamant: if they be so inclined
[16:03] Jon Seattle: sure
[16:04] Jon Seattle: the issue that came up before is that it may be possible to identify individuals. This should be rare, but as others have pointed out if you know something about the background situation it can happen.
[16:04] Justice Soothsayer: Jon, I think one worry has been that some enterprising citizen could identify an individual voter, based on some algorithm using a combination of voting data and the infield fly rule. Is that really possible?
[16:04] Jon Seattle: The data is provided without ID information of any kind.
[16:04] Jon Seattle: yes, depending on the situation, it may be possible.
[16:05] Justice Soothsayer: No identifying info as to the time it was cast?
[16:05] Jon Seattle: No, right now I randomize the entire data set.
[16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The raw data could also be presented in a random way, so that nobody knows the order that people have voted. For instance, I think I was the first voter, so someone with access to the raw data, knowing that, would be able to figure out my votes (they would be on the first line )
[16:05] Moon Adamant: but i think it would be hmmm quite hard to do that
[16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah sorry lol Jon
[16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok ))))))
[16:06] Moon Adamant: i mean, we don't have a constellation of small parties, and the tacticals votations are very clear... so in fact you have lots of people voting the same way, and lots of people voting yet another way
[16:06] Moon Adamant: so quite hard to difference an individual
[16:06] Jon Seattle: But, I will tell you, having seen some of the raw data sets, that there is one individual who might be identified. To be sure, I do not have the information to do so. But someone could have the information.
[16:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes Moon, and if the raw data is presented randomly, there is no way to figure out *individuals*
[16:07] Jon Seattle: well, here is the thing
[16:07] Jon Seattle: lets say that one voting position is so so unusual as to be almost non-existant
[16:08] Jon Seattle: it may be possible to work back from that to the individuals.
[16:08] Justice Soothsayer: Let me mention something about the US Census here.
[16:08] Moon Adamant: only if the ndividuals publicly state their voting preferences
[16:08] Moon Adamant: in which case...
[16:08] Jon Seattle: Moon, true
[16:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, well, like neuroscientists who look at extreme cases of mental illnesses and try to figure out how the brain works
[16:08] Jon Seattle: or if you can infer them somehow..
[16:08] Justice Soothsayer: We keep US Census records, but release the individual forms something like 70 years after the Census so that no one can be identified.
[16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah.
[16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
[16:09] Jon Seattle: very very useful for social science research
[16:09] Justice Soothsayer: But it is an incredible rich resource for geneoligcal research.
[16:09] Justice Soothsayer: *geneological
[16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I see. So, Justice, you would recommend NOT to release the raw data,
[16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: except, say, after two terms have elapsed or something?
[16:09] Justice Soothsayer: exactly, Gwyn.
[16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
[16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bells, what do you think about that?
[16:10] Bells Semyorka: That sounds like a good solution. and thank you Jon for your explination btw
[16:11] Jon Seattle: very welcome
[16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmmh. So would you guys be prepared to make that recommendation to the RA for a future bill?
[16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That is:
[16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1) that the code is open sourced
[16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2) that raw data is released, randomised, after two terms have elapsed?
[16:11] Moon Adamant: aye
[16:12] Jon Seattle: I would very much like to see the second. I have one small reservation about the first.
[16:12] Jon Seattle: this concerns the online program
[16:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye for myself as well (although Jon has to agree first to release his own code ))) we can't force him to open source the code now)
[16:12] Jon Seattle: it needs to be hardened so that having the code is not an invitation to attack it.
[16:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I don't think that's a "reservation", Jon — that's pretty much just common sense!!
[16:13] Jon Seattle: the second program, the one that does the calculations, I give out freely.. and it shoud be. The first one, I have been just supplying to the SC.
[16:13] Moon Adamant: i think that quite rght
[16:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, I'd never support a suggestion to release any code without making sure it's proof against attcks
[16:13] Moon Adamant: after all, we must have trust in our institutions
[16:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we have to, yes!
[16:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok... so perhaps at this stage we'd keep it open for the SC only
[16:14] Moon Adamant: or what is the sense of having this community?
[16:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And the second application, well, that one could be public, yes.
[16:14] Moon Adamant: of course
[16:14] Moon Adamant: anyone can calculate the borda counts and seats
[16:15] You shout: hi Danton & Brian, we're up here at the Praetorium, you're welcome to join us!
[16:15] Jon Seattle: yes, there is also more work that should be done, to make it possible to run the election without being so technical.. it would not eliminate the tech person, but it would put the election administrators in more control of the process.
[16:15] Moon Adamant: hi Brian
[16:15] Sonja Strom: A rabbit!
[16:15] Brian Livingston: Hi all
[16:15] Bells Semyorka: Hi Brian
[16:15] Jon Seattle: I can say more at some point if people are interested
[16:16] Sonja Strom: Hi Danton
[16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jon... since you are basically a volunteer running it and spending the time to improve the software... it's unfair to place any unreasonable demands on more time & extra work
[16:16] Moon Adamant: and hi danton
[16:16] Jon Seattle: Hi Brian, Danton
[16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Although I'd be happy to suggest to the RA that at least a token payment should be made.
[16:16] Danton Sideways: Hi everybody
[16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: welcome, Biran & Danton!
[16:16] Bells Semyorka: Hello Danton
[16:16] Jon Seattle: lol, very true. Rather overloaded with work at the moment
[16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *Brian even (ugggh ugly typo!)
[16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: All right... I think that we'll let the issue stay for now
[16:17] Jon Seattle: No payment needed
[16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (we should also talk about that, Jon, I think that it should be at least contracted... with a token payment... as a matter of principle... but I won't be too stubbornly defending that )
[16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway... for the ones newly arrived,
[16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: there is an impossible agenda inside the urn
[16:18] Jon Seattle: yes, I will accept L$1. Moon's standard rate
[16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We won't cover it all today, of course.
[16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (ok, that works hehe)
[16:18] Moon Adamant:
[16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: My idea was just to cover some topics on this commission, spread across several meetings
[16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: probably 5 or 6
[16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would thus like to suggest the following:
[16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1) first, decide among ourselves a date for the meetings. Justice has suggested splitting them between more Euro-friendly and US-friendly hours (eg. 2 meetings on the same topics)
[16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (right now, we have as a compromise an hour that is not good for either )
[16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and 2) add more topics or remove some of the topics
[16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So this is a meta-agenda, if you like:
[16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: settling the overall questions and issues that this commission is going to review to send back to the RA with recommendations.
[16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let's see about meeting times first...
[16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd prefer to have at least one meeting per week (two if we split them)
[16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: at the same time & hour — experience shows that people tend to plan in advance if they know that at a specific time there is always going to be a meeting.
[16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now... weekends is usually best for most citizens — but we have them crammed full with all the other organisations
[16:22] Moon Adamant: yup
[16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: However, a few slots were freed on Saturday, since the RA doesn't meet any more on Saturday
[16:22] Moon Adamant: neither does the Guild
[16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So what do you think? Should we do these on Saturdays'
[16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ?
[16:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn is sadly only free during the week on Thursdays and Fridays now.
[16:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And Sunday, well, RA & Guild meetings.
[16:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Saturday works for me from 3 AM to 11 AM...
[16:23] Moon Adamant: why not try and do a meeting a week on saturday, for a test, and see how mixed the audience is ?
[16:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: All right, Moon
[16:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It would have to be at 10 AM for me, then
[16:23] Jon Seattle: Sure.
[16:24] Jon Seattle: Ah, 10 AM Sat is one time I can't make it..
[16:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw Jon.
[16:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
[16:24] Jon Seattle: 11?
[16:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: When would you be available on Saturday, Jon?
[16:24] Moon Adamant: 10 AM SLT is a very good hour for both americans and europeans
[16:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 11 — ok, if we make it just one hour
[16:24] Moon Adamant: oh 
[16:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or 9 AM.
[16:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 9 AM is incredibly early for people like Flyingroc, which I'd love to have here too since he's quite knowledgeable about all the elction things
[16:25] Jon Seattle: 9 would work
[16:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok. Let's try to do it for once at 9 AM next Saturday and see what happens
[16:25] Jon Seattle: yes, I agree, if you can get him here, FR would be a great help
[16:25] Jon Seattle: okay
[16:26] Moon Adamant: 9 AM SLT, 5 PM BST, 6 PM CET
[16:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: mmmh that would be the 23rd
[16:26] Justice Soothsayer: well if history is a judge, a meeting that starts at 9 will go for 2 hours or more.
[16:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Justice
[16:26] Jon Seattle: well, I will dash out at 10 AM
[16:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, let's try to run it next week on Saturday, and see what happens
[16:27] Moon Adamant: if uyou divide the topics in small chunks, maybe the discussion can be controlled to last one hour?
