Election Commission — 4th Meeting Transcript 1/2

Proposals for legislation and discussions of these

Moderator: SC Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Gwyneth Llewelyn
Forum Wizard
Forum Wizard
Posts: 1183
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 8:00 am
Contact:

Election Commission — 4th Meeting Transcript 1/2

Post by Gwyneth Llewelyn »

[2010/08/25 10:08] Cindy Ecksol: ok, let's do it!
[2010/08/25 10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (meaning: before noon)
[2010/08/25 10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: okies
[2010/08/25 10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well what should we tackle first?
[2010/08/25 10:08] Rose Springvale: i have another meeting at 11
[2010/08/25 10:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Uh oh
[2010/08/25 10:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so we have to be EXTRA fast lol
[2010/08/25 10:09] Cindy Ecksol: good!
[2010/08/25 10:09] Rose Springvale: so will disappear .. but this is not my first meeting so... ;)
[2010/08/25 10:09] Cindy Ecksol: how about we start where we left off Saturday?
[2010/08/25 10:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: two issues then.
[2010/08/25 10:09] Rose Springvale: may i make a suggestion?
[2010/08/25 10:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: please do Rose!
[2010/08/25 10:09] Rose Springvale: what we really need is a small redraft of the legislation
[2010/08/25 10:09] Cindy Ecksol nods
[2010/08/25 10:10] Rose Springvale: so that we don't have to wade through the details of election without knowing there will be potential change
[2010/08/25 10:10] Rose Springvale: we can have direct election with no other changes
[2010/08/25 10:10] Rose Springvale: likewise, we can have term limits without direct election
[2010/08/25 10:10] Rose Springvale: so lets divide those into separate resolutions?
[2010/08/25 10:10] Rose Springvale: 1) direct election
[2010/08/25 10:11] Rose Springvale: 2) serves for 12 mo, commencing Feb 1
[2010/08/25 10:11] Rose Springvale: 3) no back to back terms
[2010/08/25 10:11] Rose Springvale: see what i mean?
[2010/08/25 10:11] Arria Perreault: back
[2010/08/25 10:11] Rose Springvale: then each can be presented separately as motions
[2010/08/25 10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, separate bills?
[2010/08/25 10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok
[2010/08/25 10:11] Cindy Ecksol: you're talking direct election of the chancellor I presume?
[2010/08/25 10:11] Rose Springvale: yes
[2010/08/25 10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes.
[2010/08/25 10:11] Cindy Ecksol: kk
[2010/08/25 10:11] Arria Perreault: what are the topic of each motion?
[2010/08/25 10:12] Arria Perreault: hi cindy
[2010/08/25 10:12] Cindy Ecksol: are we sure that we want to prohibit two terms in a row?
[2010/08/25 10:12] Rose Springvale: that lets the actual issues be dealt with rather than clutter together
[2010/08/25 10:12] Pip Torok: hi all ...
[2010/08/25 10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi Pip! welcome!
[2010/08/25 10:12] Cindy Ecksol: maybe term limit, not more than two terms in a row?
[2010/08/25 10:12] Arria Perreault: hi Pip
[2010/08/25 10:12] Rose Springvale: of 12 month terms?
[2010/08/25 10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: having the same Chancellor for 2 years?
[2010/08/25 10:12] Rose Springvale: i think 24 months is too long
[2010/08/25 10:12] Pip Torok: my question as well, Cindy
[2010/08/25 10:12] Cindy Ecksol: no...six month terms
[2010/08/25 10:12] Rose Springvale: but i'm only one vote
[2010/08/25 10:12] Cindy Ecksol: oh...I issed the 12 month thing :-)
[2010/08/25 10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2010/08/25 10:12] Rose Springvale: well, the proposal was to make it one twelve month term cindy
[2010/08/25 10:13] Cindy Ecksol: ok....I'm with you
[2010/08/25 10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes.... for practical reasons mostly
[2010/08/25 10:13] Rose Springvale: so any chancellor has the opportunity to see his or her program through without having to run for re election
[2010/08/25 10:13] Cindy Ecksol: does take some of the politics out of it....
[2010/08/25 10:13] Cindy Ecksol: introduces other issues though :-)
[2010/08/25 10:13] Pip Torok: i think its falso economics Gwyn
[2010/08/25 10:13] Rose Springvale: well then we shall vote it down in principal!
[2010/08/25 10:13] Cindy Ecksol: we'd better be careful who we elect :-)
[2010/08/25 10:13] Arria Perreault: i am not sure z
[2010/08/25 10:13] Pip Torok: we'd have to be!!
[2010/08/25 10:13] Rose Springvale: we should be anyway
[2010/08/25 10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok, Pip.... what do you think about that?
[2010/08/25 10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (remember, the RA can ALWAYS kick the Chancellor out!)
[2010/08/25 10:14] Pip Torok: i think 12 months is a dangerous precedent imo
[2010/08/25 10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (if we made a really, really bad decision)
[2010/08/25 10:14] Arria Perreault: i am not sure anymore that 12 months are a good idea
[2010/08/25 10:14] Rose Springvale: and the chancellor can always resign.
[2010/08/25 10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: of course.
[2010/08/25 10:14] Pip Torok: yes but ... do we want to develop the habit?
[2010/08/25 10:14] Rose Springvale: we've only had one chancellor in the history of CDS that served for one term, and he was impeached
[2010/08/25 10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: true :D
[2010/08/25 10:15] Arria Perreault: Gwyn, the revocation must be used only carefully
[2010/08/25 10:15] ArtiZan Mailbox 2.0 - 8-25-10: Hi Cindy Don't miss Young Zeid's RETURN FROM CHINA CONCERT - 8/26/10 at 6 PM SLT notecard attached .
[2010/08/25 10:15] Pip Torok: but ... cd the habit of impeaching become engrained?
[2010/08/25 10:15] Arria Perreault: for bad reasons
[2010/08/25 10:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not an impeachment...
[2010/08/25 10:15] Pip Torok: exactly Arria
[2010/08/25 10:15] Arria Perreault: why not motion censure?
[2010/08/25 10:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that was the whole point, it's not an impeachment. The RA does NOT need a reason to vote the Chancellor out.
[2010/08/25 10:16] Pip Torok: well if you remember I became Chancellor for 10 dats! :)
[2010/08/25 10:16] Rose Springvale: would still be up to the RA to determine... so long as we elect responsible reps, not an issue
[2010/08/25 10:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The SC *can* impeach though
[2010/08/25 10:16] Pip Torok: days
[2010/08/25 10:16] Cindy Ecksol: yes, that's both "good news" and "bad news"
[2010/08/25 10:16] Arria Perreault: the RA of this time has found a reason
[2010/08/25 10:16] Rose Springvale: to impeach?
[2010/08/25 10:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: no, to remove from office.
[2010/08/25 10:16] Rose Springvale: i know of no motion for impeachment
[2010/08/25 10:16] Pip Torok: whats the difference?
[2010/08/25 10:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: right... it never happened
[2010/08/25 10:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah Pip
[2010/08/25 10:16] Cindy Ecksol: and no motion to reove from office either
[2010/08/25 10:17] Rose Springvale: correct.
[2010/08/25 10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: impeachment implies a serious breach of legslation, etv
[2010/08/25 10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and it has a formal court for that
[2010/08/25 10:17] Cindy Ecksol: yes...and that's another issue
[2010/08/25 10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so, yes, it's a serious offense
[2010/08/25 10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: with quite a formalised procedure...
[2010/08/25 10:17] Cindy Ecksol: you never can tell, but I don't think it would be easy for RA to remove a chancellor
[2010/08/25 10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The Chancellor, however, is special. The RA can kick him out for any reason,
[2010/08/25 10:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and the Chancellor, as a special power, can also veto the RA laws on any reason (unlike the SC, who can only veto on grounds of inconstitutionality)
[2010/08/25 10:18] Pip Torok: _can_ yes, Gwyn, but with difficulty and reluctance, I wd think
[2010/08/25 10:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well sure.
[2010/08/25 10:18] Rose Springvale: you think that is a problem Pip?
[2010/08/25 10:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it shouldn't be too easy, that's the point; but also not overly complex. At least that's what we had in mind back then...
[2010/08/25 10:19] Pip Torok: for that reason i think 6 months wd ease the pressure to impeach
[2010/08/25 10:19] Rose Springvale: and minimize the ability to do anything
[2010/08/25 10:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok... let's do what the commission did in the past, which is, present two options to the RA.
[2010/08/25 10:19] Arria Perreault: what will happen if the RA of the second term of the Chancellor and the Chancellor don't agree and don't work together ?
[2010/08/25 10:19] Rose Springvale: our hope was to make the politics of re election less of an issue.
[2010/08/25 10:19] Rose Springvale: like we don't now?
[2010/08/25 10:20] Pip Torok: put it another way ... it guarantees a change of chancellor the following term!
[2010/08/25 10:20] Rose Springvale: that's not unusual, in my experience
[2010/08/25 10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Option 1: 12 month terms, no imemdiate re-election; Option 2: 6-month terms, maximum two elections in succession.
[2010/08/25 10:20] Rose Springvale: okay, good
[2010/08/25 10:20] Pip Torok: good by me, too
[2010/08/25 10:20] Arria Perreault: in my opinion, such an RA will remove the Chancellor and make an other one elected
[2010/08/25 10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and let the RA decide... we are not "forced" to arrive at a consensus here :)
[2010/08/25 10:21] Rose Springvale: if that were so, i daresay it would have happened this term
[2010/08/25 10:21] Rose Springvale: but
[2010/08/25 10:21] Rose Springvale: Gwyn
[2010/08/25 10:21] Arria Perreault: it needs a 2/3 majority
[2010/08/25 10:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes?
[2010/08/25 10:21] Rose Springvale: and eveyrone. remember this is a directly elected chancelor
[2010/08/25 10:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: exactly.
[2010/08/25 10:21] Rose Springvale: not a ra elected
[2010/08/25 10:21] Pip Torok: of course!]
[2010/08/25 10:21] Rose Springvale: it keeps the RA honest, imho
[2010/08/25 10:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok... to recap then.
[2010/08/25 10:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We have first a const. change, as bill #1 re: Chancellor...
[2010/08/25 10:22] Pip Torok: (quis custodet custodies...)
[2010/08/25 10:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art II, Section 5 - Deleted and replaced with:
1. The Chancellor of the CDS shall be elected by universal suffrage of all citizens from among any CDS citizen who shall make application to the RA.
2. The Chancellor will serve a term ending with the election of the next Chancellor.
3. The Chancellor may not be elected to or serve on the Representative Assembly, nor serve on the Scientific Council. The Chancellor may hold a position in the Artisanal Collective but may not vote therein.
[2010/08/25 10:22] Arria Perreault: ;-)
[2010/08/25 10:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That covers it all, I think.
[2010/08/25 10:23] Rose Springvale: looks good
[2010/08/25 10:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then, perhaps a law declaring: Chancellor Election Act
[2010/08/25 10:23] Arria Perreault: artisanal collective?
[2010/08/25 10:23] Rose Springvale: are the electoral rules legislation or constitutional?
[2010/08/25 10:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: legislation
[2010/08/25 10:24] Arria Perreault: is it the Guild?
[2010/08/25 10:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No
[2010/08/25 10:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are still laws in effect,
[2010/08/25 10:24] Pip Torok: should change "artasinal" I think
[2010/08/25 10:24] Rose Springvale: yes, we've never cleaned that up
[2010/08/25 10:24] Arria Perreault: yes
[2010/08/25 10:24] Rose Springvale: its still defined
[2010/08/25 10:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that describe the powers of the Artisanal Collective
[2010/08/25 10:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and the Chacellor has inherited them
[2010/08/25 10:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: teh reason why we haven't removed this,
[2010/08/25 10:25] Rose Springvale: did he pay tax? :)
[2010/08/25 10:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: is mostly because it meant changing ALL laws retroactively and make sure we don't miss any
[2010/08/25 10:25] Pip Torok: hmmm
[2010/08/25 10:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But we can remove it from here I think....
[2010/08/25 10:25] Cindy Ecksol: /e smiles....
[2010/08/25 10:25] Rose Springvale: someday i will take it to word and do a redline copy
[2010/08/25 10:25] Rose Springvale: when i'm reaaaalllly bored ll
[2010/08/25 10:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehehehehehe
[2010/08/25 10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok.... should we start removing it while we're at it? Const. changes are always hard to do.
[2010/08/25 10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art II, Section 5 - Deleted and replaced with:
1. The Chancellor of the CDS shall be elected by universal suffrage of all citizens from among any CDS citizen who shall make application to the RA.
2. The Chancellor will serve a term ending with the election of the next Chancellor.
3. The Chancellor may not be elected to or serve on the Representative Assembly, nor serve on the Scientific Council.
[2010/08/25 10:26] Rose Springvale: good thinking
[2010/08/25 10:26] Pip Torok: yup
[2010/08/25 10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok.
[2010/08/25 10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: then let's tackle the Chancellor Election Act
[2010/08/25 10:26] Arria Perreault: i will be back in few minutes. i'll run home ...
[2010/08/25 10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Option 1a: Chancellors are elected for a 12-month term and cannot hold two terms in succession. Term starts simultaneously with the Representative Assembly February term.
[2010/08/25 10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (ok Arria
[2010/08/25 10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: no wait
[2010/08/25 10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: strike that hehe
[2010/08/25 10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we'll have the term limits on a third bill, as per Rose's suggestion.
[2010/08/25 10:27] Rose Springvale: smiles
[2010/08/25 10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Option 1a: Chancellors are elected for a 12-month term, whichstarts simultaneously with the Representative Assembly February term.
[2010/08/25 10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry, missed a space there.
[2010/08/25 10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And Option 1b: Chancellors are elected for a 6-month term, which start simultaneously with the Representative Assembly terms.
[2010/08/25 10:28] Rose Springvale: ok
[2010/08/25 10:28] Pip Torok is happier with the 2nd Option 1a
[2010/08/25 10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn likes that in English "which" can be used for plural and singular
[2010/08/25 10:28] Cindy Ecksol: Gwyn, can I make a suggestion?
[2010/08/25 10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: please do!
[2010/08/25 10:29] Cindy Ecksol: when we propose legislation, it's better not to have "options"
[2010/08/25 10:29] Rose Springvale: i disagree!
[2010/08/25 10:29] Cindy Ecksol: just put forth a bill that the group thinks is "good enough."
[2010/08/25 10:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I disagree too, Cindy. In the past meeting, we didn't always have a consensus.
[2010/08/25 10:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *meetings even
[2010/08/25 10:29] Cindy Ecksol: let the RA members debate "options" and if someone wants to amend and the RA agrees, it will happen
[2010/08/25 10:29] Rose Springvale: cindy, this is to account for lack of consensus, and to have the language ready so people dont' complain
[2010/08/25 10:29] Pip Torok: btw should be "starts" not "start"
[2010/08/25 10:29] Rose Springvale: nooooo
[2010/08/25 10:29] Cindy Ecksol: setting up "options" in the bill just extends the debate...
[2010/08/25 10:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: if you look at http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3026
[2010/08/25 10:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we have a lot of options there.
[2010/08/25 10:30] Rose Springvale: i like having wording that has been considered outside of the melee
[2010/08/25 10:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and point taken, Pip! hehe )
[2010/08/25 10:30] Rose Springvale: makes for better legislation
[2010/08/25 10:30] Cindy Ecksol: better to introduce and have someone say "I'm ok with elections, but I propose amending to 12 months instead of 6"
[2010/08/25 10:30] Rose Springvale: i hate meetings like last week
[2010/08/25 10:30] Cindy Ecksol: RA then debates and votes on the amendment...and if it fails, we move on
[2010/08/25 10:30] Rose Springvale: that's just confusing.
[2010/08/25 10:30] Cindy Ecksol: that's how it's supposed to work
[2010/08/25 10:30] Rose Springvale: not necessarily cindy
[2010/08/25 10:30] Rose Springvale: and this has been doing very well this term
[2010/08/25 10:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would *prefer* to have consensual options, too, but... they're not always easy
[2010/08/25 10:30] Cindy Ecksol: if there's no second, we move on right away
[2010/08/25 10:31] Rose Springvale: and in the meantime we waste 10 minutes
[2010/08/25 10:31] Cindy Ecksol: *sigh*
[2010/08/25 10:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and no... we have provisions... to add options that didn't make a consensus, flag them as such, and include them in the proposals.
[2010/08/25 10:31] Cindy Ecksol: ok, rose, you're the leader...and I'll go along with you.
[2010/08/25 10:31] Cindy Ecksol: but I think you're missing an opportunity to make the process MUCH simpler
[2010/08/25 10:31] Cindy Ecksol: discussion ONE issue at a time instead of trying to reconcile a jillion options
[2010/08/25 10:31] Rose Springvale: this is the commissions choice, but i think your way makes it much more likely to get nasty, like it did last week, for the very reason you are propsing now
[2010/08/25 10:32] Rose Springvale: oh, you missed that part of the meeting... that's what we already are doing
[2010/08/25 10:32] Cindy Ecksol: well, it got crazy because there were TOO MANY OPTIONS!
[2010/08/25 10:32] Rose Springvale: pulling hte resolution apart. no
[2010/08/25 10:32] Rose Springvale: it got crazy because peopel wanted language instead of to go with the flow of the meeting
[2010/08/25 10:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: actually, I don't remember who wrote the legislation about committees, but I find them very fair and balanced, since a) we don't all need to agree with each other's opinions; b) there is no "pressure" to find a SINGLE solution, which might not be the best, and please all commission attendants; c) legislation specifies that all alternate options and disagreements should be transcripted and part of the recommendation, to let the RA know which gathered consensus and which did not.
[2010/08/25 10:32] Cindy Ecksol: ok....let's move on.
[2010/08/25 10:32] Rose Springvale: thanks gwyn
[2010/08/25 10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hey, we can have a commission on commissions to review the rules :)
[2010/08/25 10:33] Cindy Ecksol: this is procedural, rose is responsible for procedure
[2010/08/25 10:33] Rose Springvale: next term :)
[2010/08/25 10:33] Cindy Ecksol: I've said my say
[2010/08/25 10:33] Rose Springvale: when you lead RA gwynnie lol
[2010/08/25 10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok! next term we'll revier commissions!
[2010/08/25 10:33] Pip Torok: a meta-commission!! oh no! :-((
[2010/08/25 10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: not I! I hope not to get elected!!
[2010/08/25 10:33] Rose Springvale: only one way to asssure that, dont' run :)
[2010/08/25 10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: right!
[2010/08/25 10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: anyway.... this bill has two more points, let me see...
[2010/08/25 10:33] Rose Springvale: we will sit out and have parties :)
[2010/08/25 10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Option 2a. Any citizen may become a candidate by declaring themselves by a message to the Leader of the Representative Assembly, two weeks before the voting booths open. On the next day, all applicants will be listed by the LRA, and campaigning begins one week before the voting booths open. Elections shall be held over a 168 hour period beginning at noon SLT on the Saturday before the 16th of the month prior to the new Chancellor taking office. In the event of a server outage which prevents citizens from casting ballots and which lasts more than 12 hours, the Dean of the SC has the authority to adjust or extend the election schedule.
[2010/08/25 10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The new term will start on February 1.
[2010/08/25 10:34] Rose Springvale: wait
[2010/08/25 10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And Options 2b. is exactly the same but has,
[2010/08/25 10:34] Rose Springvale: ok
[2010/08/25 10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The new term will start on February 1 and July 1
[2010/08/25 10:34] Rose Springvale: i thought we took LRA out of it
[2010/08/25 10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *terms probably
[2010/08/25 10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
[2010/08/25 10:34] Rose Springvale: as the campaigns are simultaneous
[2010/08/25 10:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And put the SC on it?
[2010/08/25 10:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok
[2010/08/25 10:35] Rose Springvale: all candidates declare the same place
[2010/08/25 10:35] Rose Springvale: keep it simple :)
[2010/08/25 10:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scratch "Leader of the Representative Assembly" and put "Dean of the Scientific Council"
[2010/08/25 10:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well yes. these were some odd bits that I filled in after the last commission meeting which were "to do"
[2010/08/25 10:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so, sorry
[2010/08/25 10:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: my fault hehe
[2010/08/25 10:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok
[2010/08/25 10:36] Rose Springvale: good law writing requires me to say. add "or such other date as shall be announced by the SC"
[2010/08/25 10:36] Rose Springvale: so we don't have the horror of last term

"I'm not building a game. I'm building a new country."
  -- Philip "Linden" Rosedale, interview to Wired, 2004-05-08

PGP Fingerprint: CE8A 6006 B611 850F 1275 72BA D93E AA3D C4B3 E1CB

User avatar
Gwyneth Llewelyn
Forum Wizard
Forum Wizard
Posts: 1183
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 8:00 am
Contact:

Election Commission — 4th Meeting Transcript 2/2

Post by Gwyneth Llewelyn »

[2010/08/25 10:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 3. In case the Chancellor leaves its office or is removed from it mid-term, a special Chancellor by-election will be immediately called for by the SC which will open new applications on the day notice was given and close applications after a week.
[2010/08/25 10:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Rose
[2010/08/25 10:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm fine with adding that too!
[2010/08/25 10:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Makes sense to me :)
[2010/08/25 10:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: All fine with 3?
[2010/08/25 10:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: did I crash?
[2010/08/25 10:37] Rose Springvale: still reading
[2010/08/25 10:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh okies
[2010/08/25 10:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry :D
[2010/08/25 10:38] Rose Springvale: do you want to leave the campaigning part in?
[2010/08/25 10:38] Pip Torok: query ... is "immediately" nionambiguous?
[2010/08/25 10:38] Rose Springvale: brb
[2010/08/25 10:38] Cindy Ecksol: # 3 - remove "its"
[2010/08/25 10:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok, Cindy
[2010/08/25 10:38] Cindy Ecksol: shoudl read "case the Chancellor leaves office"
[2010/08/25 10:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and Pip has a point.
[2010/08/25 10:38] Cindy Ecksol: yep, needs a "time certain"
[2010/08/25 10:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: actuallym, it follows on the sentence,
[2010/08/25 10:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so "immediately" is redundant
[2010/08/25 10:39] Cindy Ecksol: ah, ok...
[2010/08/25 10:39] Cindy Ecksol: that works
[2010/08/25 10:39] Pip Torok agrees
[2010/08/25 10:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: a special Chancellor by-election will be called for by the SC which will open new applications on the day notice was given and close applications after a week.
[2010/08/25 10:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so I think it's pretty clear
[2010/08/25 10:40] Pip Torok: yup
[2010/08/25 10:40] Rose Springvale: Do we have other legislation that deals with by elections and campaigning? best not to create legal conflicts if so
[2010/08/25 10:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: After applications are closed, point 2 applies :)
[2010/08/25 10:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes for RA, Rose
[2010/08/25 10:40] Rose Springvale: ah, but not for chancellor. that makes senes
[2010/08/25 10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... which is the other issue we couldn't agree at the last RA meeting hehe
[2010/08/25 10:41] Cindy Ecksol: *sigh*
[2010/08/25 10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well... the bill for campaigning and such,
[2010/08/25 10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: applies to both
[2010/08/25 10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but
[2010/08/25 10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we still have to review it today, too!
[2010/08/25 10:41] Rose Springvale: unless we want to just amend the by election law to include chancellor. So all direct elections have the same rules
[2010/08/25 10:41] Cindy Ecksol: I'm liking this one a lot better.
[2010/08/25 10:41] Cindy Ecksol: whoo hoo!
[2010/08/25 10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Great to know :D
[2010/08/25 10:41] Cindy Ecksol: how about THAT for a simple solution?
[2010/08/25 10:41] Cindy Ecksol: how about we go there?
[2010/08/25 10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh :)
[2010/08/25 10:42] Rose Springvale: here is one issue
[2010/08/25 10:42] Cindy Ecksol: SOOOO easy!
[2010/08/25 10:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh... we still have Bill #3 — Chancellor Term Limits
[2010/08/25 10:42] Rose Springvale: is the by election law for RA constitutional or legislative
[2010/08/25 10:42] Rose Springvale: the last thing we want is to have to do two consitutional amendments that depend on one another and not have both pass
[2010/08/25 10:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok... the introduction of the notion of by-elections, is constitutional for the RA
[2010/08/25 10:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: the procedure is legislative
[2010/08/25 10:43] Rose Springvale: okay
[2010/08/25 10:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so hmm
[2010/08/25 10:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: perhaps this point 3 should be part of the const. amendment then?
[2010/08/25 10:43] Rose Springvale: just want to be sure we don't make a bigger problem trying to be simpler
[2010/08/25 10:43] Rose Springvale: no
[2010/08/25 10:43] Rose Springvale: because
[2010/08/25 10:43] Rose Springvale: it doesn't create a conflict
[2010/08/25 10:43] Rose Springvale: we can still have direct election without term limits
[2010/08/25 10:44] Rose Springvale: so if we pass one constitutionally and not the other
[2010/08/25 10:44] Rose Springvale: we are ok
[2010/08/25 10:44] Rose Springvale: but
[2010/08/25 10:44] Rose Springvale: if we pass one constitutional amenment on direct election
[2010/08/25 10:44] Rose Springvale: and the process has to be another constitutional amendment and doesn't pass
[2010/08/25 10:44] Rose Springvale: we are left with an un enforceable constitutional provision
[2010/08/25 10:44] Rose Springvale: so if we can do our election proceduer as legislation, lets leave it alone
[2010/08/25 10:45] Pip Torok agrees
[2010/08/25 10:45] Rose Springvale: we'll have to see how much of that she got lol
[2010/08/25 10:46] Rose Springvale: wb arria, gwyn crashed just now
[2010/08/25 10:46] Arria Perreault: thank you
[2010/08/25 10:46] Cindy Ecksol: ok, that works....
[2010/08/25 10:46] Rose Springvale: wb gwyn
[2010/08/25 10:46] Rose Springvale: have a dip :)
[2010/08/25 10:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol sorry1!!
[2010/08/25 10:47] Champagne--Animated: whispers: Ahhhh
[2010/08/25 10:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I was reading on what the const. said about the RA by-elections,
[2010/08/25 10:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: when all of the sudden my ISP dropped the connection
[2010/08/25 10:47] Rose Springvale: arria will give you notes to now.. hold on
[2010/08/25 10:47] Rose Springvale: gwyn
[2010/08/25 10:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh, I see you're back at home, Arria :)
[2010/08/25 10:48] Rose Springvale: what did you get last
[2010/08/25 10:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: last what? :)
[2010/08/25 10:48] Rose Springvale: [10:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: perhaps this point 3 should be part of the const. amendment then?
[10:43] Rose Springvale: just want to be sure we don't make a bigger problem trying to be simpler
[10:43] Rose Springvale: no
[10:43] Rose Springvale: because
[10:43] Rose Springvale: it doesn't create a conflict
[10:43] Rose Springvale: we can still have direct election without term limits
[10:44] Rose Springvale: so if we pass one constitutionally and not the other
[10:44] Rose Springvale: we are ok
[10:44] Rose Springvale: but
[10:44] Rose Springvale: if we pass one constitutional amenment on direct election
[10:44] Rose Springvale: and the process has to be another constitutional amendment and doesn't pass
[10:44] Rose Springvale: we are left with an un enforceable constitutional provision
[10:44] Rose Springvale: so if we can do our election proceduer as legislation, lets leave it alone
[2010/08/25 10:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ahhh
[2010/08/25 10:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok
[2010/08/25 10:48] Rose Springvale: hate to type and not have you read :)
[2010/08/25 10:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you
[2010/08/25 10:49] Rose Springvale: i have to leave in 10 minutes :)
[2010/08/25 10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, const says for RA: "Vacancies in RA positions will be filled by by-election administered on a schedule set by the Scientific Council consistent with other applicable CDS law."
[2010/08/25 10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so, yes, it's legislative too
[2010/08/25 10:49] Rose Springvale: good language
[2010/08/25 10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: good :)
[2010/08/25 10:49] Rose Springvale: we should adopt it
[2010/08/25 10:49] Pip Torok: sounds fine
[2010/08/25 10:50] Cindy Ecksol: perfect!
[2010/08/25 10:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok, we can put that as point 4 on the Const. amendment if you wish.... "Vacancies in the Chancellor positionwill be filled by by-election administered on a schedule set by the Scientific Council consistent with other applicable CDS law."
[2010/08/25 10:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (minus typos)
[2010/08/25 10:50] Rose Springvale: yes
[2010/08/25 10:50] Rose Springvale: well, Chancellor vacancies is better wording
[2010/08/25 10:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes.
[2010/08/25 10:51] Rose Springvale: since there is only one chancellor position
[2010/08/25 10:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 4. Chancellor vacancies will be filled by a by-election administered on a schedule set by the Scientific Council consistent with other applicable CDS law.
[2010/08/25 10:51] Pip Torok: (might get shortened to " CV's" though :-))
[2010/08/25 10:51] Rose Springvale: yay Gwyn, no typos!
[2010/08/25 10:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Pip
[2010/08/25 10:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: a miracle, ROse!
[2010/08/25 10:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok...
[2010/08/25 10:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: then.... Bill #3 - Chancellor Term Limits
[2010/08/25 10:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Again, two options
[2010/08/25 10:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Option 1, 1. Chancellors are elected for a 12-month term and cannot hold two terms in succession.
[2010/08/25 10:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Option 2. Chancellors are elected for a 6-month term and can hold at most two terms in succession.
[2010/08/25 10:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
[2010/08/25 10:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sems to be simple.
[2010/08/25 10:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *seems
[2010/08/25 10:53] Rose Springvale: option 3. no change
[2010/08/25 10:53] Rose Springvale: ie no term limitations
[2010/08/25 10:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh ok.
[2010/08/25 10:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: wait, it should be explicit.... Option 3. Chancellors are elected for a 6-month term.
[2010/08/25 10:53] Rose Springvale: which would be... yes
[2010/08/25 10:53] Rose Springvale: or 12 month lol
[2010/08/25 10:53] Rose Springvale: i guess we could have 4 options!
[2010/08/25 10:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and on the notes will just be: "no change")
[2010/08/25 10:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
[2010/08/25 10:53] Arria Perreault: why a limitation of terms?
[2010/08/25 10:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm fine with the 4 options.
[2010/08/25 10:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Arria — from the commission recommendation.... here is the official reasoning for term limits:
[2010/08/25 10:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "The reason why no term limits were set in the CDS was due to the historically very low number of volunteers interested in participating in Government; on the other hand, this gave citizens the perception that always the same people are in power with little rotativity, thus discouraging their participation. As the CDS increased its population, the objection against limiting terms seems to have weakened."
[2010/08/25 10:55] Arria Perreault: they are elected. if cictzen get bored, they do't re-elect
[2010/08/25 10:55] Rose Springvale: that' wont encourage new people to run against an incumbent
[2010/08/25 10:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: My comment: I have heard many people on the forums always grumbling that "we have not given good reasons for our decisions" and "we have not fundamented our opinions" or "we have not given it much thought" but... all those assumptions are, in fact, part of the submitted document.
[2010/08/25 10:55] Cindy Ecksol: isn't the term of the Chancellor already in our previous bill?
[2010/08/25 10:55] Cindy Ecksol: if it is, no need for option 3
[2010/08/25 10:55] Rose Springvale: no, we pulled it apart cindy
[2010/08/25 10:55] Cindy Ecksol: or 4
[2010/08/25 10:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, Cindy. Rose suggested moving it out.
[2010/08/25 10:55] Rose Springvale: so we can vote on each separately
[2010/08/25 10:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: exactly.
[2010/08/25 10:55] Cindy Ecksol: oh....sorry missed that.
[2010/08/25 10:55] Cindy Ecksol: ok...
[2010/08/25 10:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2010/08/25 10:56] Cindy Ecksol: here is good....
[2010/08/25 10:56] Cindy Ecksol: that's what I get for multi-tasking..
[2010/08/25 10:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it's also consistent with the last RA discussion, where people were confused why we were discussing issues separately.
[2010/08/25 10:56] Pip Torok: heh
[2010/08/25 10:56] Arria Perreault: can we answer these 2 questions?
[2010/08/25 10:56] Cindy Ecksol: I'm ok with all that wording...and will have to zoom out about now....
[2010/08/25 10:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now we make SURE that the issues ARE separate!
[2010/08/25 10:56] Arria Perreault: - if a Chancellor is elected and then removed during the term, can this person be candidate for the next election of the Chancellor?
- if a Chancellor is removed and a new one is elected, can the new Chancellor (who will not serve an entire term) run?
[2010/08/25 10:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Arria, yes, depends on the option on term limits that the RA will vote upon.
[2010/08/25 10:57] Arria Perreault: of course
[2010/08/25 10:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If there are no limits to re-election, your answers would be "yes" and "yes"
[2010/08/25 10:57] Pip Torok: I wd say YES since the ex-chancellor may have felt badly treated, then she/he cd appeal to the "people"
[2010/08/25 10:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If we limit terms, then the answers would be "no" in the 12-month scenario, and "yes"
[2010/08/25 10:58] Rose Springvale: i think the term limits should apply if they server more than half a term
[2010/08/25 10:58] Arria Perreault: I would also say that a chancellor who did not make an entire term can run again
[2010/08/25 10:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or "yes" in the 6 month scenario if it's the first term served
[2010/08/25 10:58] Rose Springvale: smiels
[2010/08/25 10:58] Rose Springvale: i need to go run my meeting. you can debate this one ... or add language :)
[2010/08/25 10:59] Rose Springvale: thanks for your time :)
[2010/08/25 10:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe see you Rose!
[2010/08/25 10:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thanks for coming!
[2010/08/25 10:59] Arria Perreault: see you, Rose
[2010/08/25 10:59] Pip Torok: bye Rose
[2010/08/25 10:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: phone, sorry
[2010/08/25 11:00] Arria Perreault: maybe as principle: when there is a limitation of term, the Chancellor who did not make an entire term can run again
[2010/08/25 11:00] Cindy Ecksol: good point arria. just make it say that "the chancellor cannot be ELECTED to more than (one or two depending) terms in a row.
[2010/08/25 11:01] Cindy Ecksol: that way it they're appointed mid-term they could fill that term and then a term of their own.
[2010/08/25 11:01] Arria Perreault: can we add the word "entire" or "complete"?
[2010/08/25 11:01] Cindy Ecksol: oh...but wait.
[2010/08/25 11:01] Cindy Ecksol: do we really want to do that so simply?
[2010/08/25 11:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: back sorry!
[2010/08/25 11:02] Cindy Ecksol: suppose that the chancellor who is elected has to resign after one month?
[2010/08/25 11:02] Pip Torok: sorry I must go ... to cover the AA meeting ...
[2010/08/25 11:02] Pip Torok: bye all
[2010/08/25 11:02] Arria Perreault: yes, it's an other case to think about
[2010/08/25 11:02] Cindy Ecksol: next chancellor would serve 5 months....and then would we want them to serve TWO additional terms?
[2010/08/25 11:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Pip!
[2010/08/25 11:02] Cindy Ecksol: I don't think so.
[2010/08/25 11:02] Cindy Ecksol: probably need to add something like:
[2010/08/25 11:04] Cindy Ecksol: "In the event that the elected Chancellor resigns after (less than half the term), a citizen who fills that term will be limited to that term plus one additional term"
[2010/08/25 11:04] Cindy Ecksol: two options of course -- one for a six month term, one for 12 months
[2010/08/25 11:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn hates her ISP!
[2010/08/25 11:04] Cindy Ecksol: hello?
[2010/08/25 11:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry!!!
[2010/08/25 11:05] Cindy Ecksol: ok...so did you get that?
[2010/08/25 11:05] Cindy Ecksol: yikes, my daughter is chasing me....I really need to vamoose.....
[2010/08/25 11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: gosh I hope that you don't Crash, Cindy, because I believe you're the only one that has a full transcript
[2010/08/25 11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The last thing I have from you was....
[2010/08/25 11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don't think so.
[11:01] Cindy Ecksol: probably need to add something like:
[2010/08/25 11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And then I crashed
[2010/08/25 11:05] Cindy Ecksol: "In the event that the elected Chancellor resigns after (less than half the term), a citizen who fills that term will be limited to that term plus one additional term"
[11:04] Cindy Ecksol: two options of course -- one for a six month term, one for 12 months
[2010/08/25 11:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok!
[2010/08/25 11:06] Cindy Ecksol: lol!
[2010/08/25 11:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, it's very reasonable, Cindy

"I'm not building a game. I'm building a new country."
  -- Philip "Linden" Rosedale, interview to Wired, 2004-05-08

PGP Fingerprint: CE8A 6006 B611 850F 1275 72BA D93E AA3D C4B3 E1CB

Post Reply

Return to “Legislative Discussion”