Pat for LRA

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Beathan
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Pat for LRA

Post by Beathan »

Pat has announced that he does not want to serve as LRA. I publicly ask him to reconsider. I am hard-pressed to see how we can have an effective LRA this session if he does not agree to serve in that position.

The RA election brought forward a new citizen (Shep) who suffers from unfair stigma as a result of her recent immigration. Even if that were not so, it would not be fair to expect her to serve as LRA having never seen an RA in action.

I am a notorious firebrand (always have been) and am admittedly temperamentally ill-fitted to the post. Further, I am (and always have been) a lightning rod of sorts. People love me or hate me, often at the same time. I also have announced (and intend to follow through with) an intention to withdraw in favor of a full and fair by-election as soon as I can set up as full and as fair a by-election as possible.

Rosie and Anna are both good people, for whom I have a lot of respect, and long-lasting respect. However, both have announced their clear opposition to the full participation of new citizens in our community, and both have expressed skepticism about the goodwill of the recent immigrants. It would be wrong to expect Shep to serve on a RA led by either of them, and I will not vote to confirm either as LRA for that reason.

Pat is obviously the tie-breaker. I think that rather than being LRA-maker, he would better serve directly as LRA. He has the respect of both wings of the current RA and is not completely tied to either of them. He has served as LRA before in what was both a difficult and a productive session.

Again, I urge him to reconsider and stand for LRA.

Beathan

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Rosie Gray
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Re: Pat for LRA

Post by Rosie Gray »

Beathan wrote:

Rosie and Anna are both good people, for whom I have a lot of respect, and long-lasting respect. However, both have announced their clear opposition to the full participation of new citizens in our community, and both have expressed skepticism about the goodwill of the recent immigrants. It would be wrong to expect Shep to serve on a RA led by either of them, and I will not vote to confirm either as LRA for that reason.
Beathan

Beathan. Where exactly did you get this information that I "expressed skepticism about the goodwill of the recent immigrants" or that I in some way oppose the full participation of new citizens in our community? If you are going to accuse me - show your proof.

For the record, I do not in ANY way oppose the full participation of new citizens, and I in fact whole-heartedly WELCOME the new citizens. If you are referring to the fact that I voted to uphold our constitution in the 28 day residency requirement, then yes I did and do uphold it. This has nothing to do with somehow having ill will towards new citizens.

I reject your innuendo and will ask you to refrain from your unfounded accusations. I take personal offence that you are accusing me of bias where I hold none and have only done my best in an above board manner.

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Re: Pat for LRA

Post by Beathan »

Rosie Gray wrote:
Beathan wrote:

Rosie and Anna are both good people, for whom I have a lot of respect, and long-lasting respect. However, both have announced their clear opposition to the full participation of new citizens in our community, and both have expressed skepticism about the goodwill of the recent immigrants. It would be wrong to expect Shep to serve on a RA led by either of them, and I will not vote to confirm either as LRA for that reason.
Beathan

Beathan. Where exactly did you get this information that I "expressed skepticism about the goodwill of the recent immigrants" or that I in some way oppose the full participation of new citizens in our community? If you are going to accuse me - show your proof.

For the record, I do not in ANY way oppose the full participation of new citizens, and I in fact whole-heartedly WELCOME the new citizens. If you are referring to the fact that I voted to uphold our constitution in the 28 day residency requirement, then yes I did and do uphold it. This has nothing to do with somehow having ill will towards new citizens.

I reject your innuendo and will ask you to refrain from your unfounded accusations. I take personal offence that you are accusing me of bias where I hold none and have only done my best in an above board manner.

Rosie --

Your position on that is no mystery. You have expressed, not just in informal contexts, but in an official RA meeting, your position that citizens should acculturate before they participate (which is a position I find morally bankrupt, and have said as much).

I quote --

[13:15] Arria Perreault: I think that these citizen have declared in good faith. Now they don't all have the same chance to get a seat
[13:16] Rosie Gray raises hand
[13:16] Arria Perreault: Rosie
[13:16] Rosie Gray: I understand your point Arria, but I disagree that this is a good idea
[13:16] Pip Torok: yes Arria but thats an unfortunate outcome of the whole blunder we have all made with the mistaken dates
[13:16] Sonja Strom looks up at her raised hand.
[13:17] Fern Leissa:
[13:17] Pip Torok: )
[13:17] Arria Perreault: Sonja
[13:17] Rosie Gray: in all jurisdictions is is required that people meet a reqkuired amount of time living in the place that they wish to vote
[13:17] Sonja Strom:
[13:17] Rosie Gray: sorry I am not finished yet
[13:17] Sonja Strom: I will wait for Rosie to finish.
[13:17] Arria Perreault: go ahead, Rosie
[13:17] Pip Torok hopes Sonja's arm is not aching .....
[13:17] Rosie Gray: I think that it is important that people know about the place that they live
[13:18] Rosie Gray: understand the culture of the place, as well as the rules
[13:18] Rosie Gray: before they are put into places of power
[13:18] Rosie Gray: and I would point out that with the by-election not that far away
[13:18] Rosie Gray: that this is not an unreasonable requirement
[13:18] Rosie Gray: done

Beathan

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Rosie Gray
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Re: Pat for LRA

Post by Rosie Gray »

Beathan

You may disagree with my position that people should expect to know something about a place that they would like to have a position of power in does not make my position 'morally bankrupt'. This does in no way give you any right to accuse me of bias. It is my position, and my right to have that position, and I was upholding the constitution with it.

In the real world there is ALWAYS a requirement of citizenship before voting. This makes sense in the real world, and makes sense in the CDS constitution.

You have also not answered my question as to your accusing me of wishing new citizens ill-will. What justification have to you say that? I take extreme exception to your continued innuendo and unfounded accusations.

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Pip Torok
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Re: Pat for LRA

Post by Pip Torok »

Beathan wrote:

Pat has announced that he does not want to serve as LRA. I publicly ask him to reconsider. I am hard-pressed to see how we can have an effective LRA this session if he does not agree to serve in that position.

... and I am yet harder-pressed to see just how you come to this conclusion, Beathan.

Beathan wrote:

The RA election brought forward a new citizen (Shep) who suffers from unfair stigma as a result of her recent immigration. Even if that were not so, it would not be fair to expect her to serve as LRA having never seen an RA in action.

From what I know of Shep Titian, Beathan, the very last image I would hold of her is of a shrinking-violet. I can just imagine her chuckle at your picture of an imaginary stigma (or even non-imaginary stigmata) that she is supposedly suffering from! And, suddenly, you talk of fairness! I vaguely remember reading in her platform that she mentioned RL committee-work. Let me tell you, Beathan, that committee-work (at least in England) is characterised by many things ... but fairness in any form is not among them.

Beathan wrote:

Rosie and Anna are both good people, for whom I have a lot of respect, and long-lasting respect. However, both have announced their clear opposition to the full participation of new citizens in our community, and both have expressed skepticism about the goodwill of the recent immigrants. It would be wrong to expect Shep to serve on a RA led by either of them, and I will not vote to confirm either as LRA for that reason.

.... "clear opposition", Beathan? That is a smear and a lie.

And anyone unable to muster a degree of scepticism about good- or badwill in others, is completely unsuited to the job of representing the interests of CDS citizens.

So, who would I plump for?

Well, first, I would assert that the job of appointing an LRA falls squarely, in the first instance, within the remit of the individuals directly concerned.

Secondly, I would take strong notice of which two candidates emerged first in the results. It shows who we, the voters, are thinking of, Beathan.

Thirdly, it's my opinion that a good representative becomes an excellent LRA by dint of recent experience under a somewhat-less-than-excellent LRA.

Pip Torok

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Patroklus Murakami
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Re: Pat for LRA

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

No thanks :)

I think Rosie, Shep or Anna would be excellent as LRA and LRA pro tem. I will not stand for either position.

I am puzzled as to how Rosie and Anna get labelled as "anti-newcomer" and I get off scot-free when I proposed the amendments which "disenfranchised" people ( who were never entitled to vote in the first place). There's a logical inconsistency here.

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Re: Pat for LRA

Post by Beathan »

Rosie,

The suspension of an election, which required amendment of the Constitution, is not adhering to or supporting the Constitution. It is suspending the Constitution to allow the suspension of the election. (Your logic strikes me as being of the "we must violate the Constitution in order to save it" variety -- which I find categorically specious.)

I don't think that we actually disagree on the importance of learning about the CDS before diving into it. Before I joined the CDS, I read everything that had been posted on these forums (over a thousand pages at that time) and read all available legal and formational documents. Then I joined, having already fully acquainted myself with the political and legal history and culture of the place. I joined with a bang -- with a forum post that changed the debate about the Judiciary and led (with help of others) to the creation of the Simplicity Party. My immediate participation in those discussions allowed me to quickly form connections, allegiances, friendships, rivalries -- personal connections -- and thereby participate in the living human culture as well. In other words, I hit the ground running -- and there was nothing wrong with or impossible about that.

(I do note that what I did involved a crazy amount of work. I don't think that is normal -- or normative. I don't expect anyone else to be like me in such things. I just don't want to rule out such a path to full and immediate participation.)

I also note that you appear to believe that the residency requirement (term of residency as opposed to mere fact of citizenship) was imposed to provide for an acculturation period. It was not. I participated in the debate that resulted in the requirement. As Gwyn pointed out in other posts, it was intended to address a problem I termed "the thousand friends and alts" problem. In essence, a CDS citizen, Michel Manen, appeared poised to steal an election by flooding the CDS with new citizens, many of whom appeared to be his own alts and others appeared to be ringers brought in for the express purpose of voting for him in that election rather than as legitimate citizens. Given the small size of our voting population, and the smaller size of the population that turns out for election, it would be easy to steal an election in this way. There appeared to be no easy way to verify the real identity of such toons, so we brought in the residency requirement as a messy and imperfect work-around.

That history is important here. First, the current election does not appear to have been threatened (despite some suspicion to the contrary) by the thousand friends and alts problem. I have personally met with the new citizens, and I know that they are not "friends and alts" of Cleo. Rather, they are new citizens who are truly excited by our project who were introduced to it by Cleo acting as a salesperson at the Chancellor's request. That is an entirely different situation. In fact, applying the residence rule in that situation has the unintended effect of subjecting legitimate citizens to government by people they oppose -- the very evil that the rule was trying to avoid.

The solution was to allow the proper Constitutional process to play out. Have the election on the published list. Challenge it. Unseat any improperly seated members of the RA. Have a by-election. Seat the people elected at the by-election. Any new citizen willing to stick around for such a process will have amply demonstrated their commitment to the culture and project of the CDS -- and will have been subjected to enough interaction to verify, for practical purposes, their real identity.

Beathan

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Re: Pat for LRA

Post by Beathan »

Patroklus Murakami wrote:

No thanks :)

I think Rosie, Shep or Anna would be excellent as LRA and LRA pro tem. I will not stand for either position.

I am puzzled as to how Rosie and Anna get labelled as "anti-newcomer" and I get off scot-free when I proposed the amendments which "disenfranchised" people ( who were never entitled to vote in the first place). There's a logical inconsistency here.

Pat,

I don't think you should get off Scot free here. You were a member of the "old guard" when I arrived -- and I remember your being skeptical and critical of me as a noisy newcomer. We had our dust ups then on this issue -- and that resulted in some of the difficulty of the term of the RA (in which I served) that you led as LRA.

However, I have noted that you are in a different category from Rosie for three reasons. First, although you proposed the amendments, you did so as a private citizen. I don't hold private citizens to account for proposing bad legislation. I only hold legislators to account for voting it in.

Second, your opposition to new citizens appears to focus on the fear of the "thousand friends and alts" problem rather than on an idea that there is something inherently untoward with new citizens participating. Because I think that we can put paid to the "thousand friends and alts" problem here, I find that opposition to be less problematic than that of either Rosie or Anna.

Third, I know from your behavior as a previous LRA that your skepticism about new citizens does not limit or imperil your ability to effectively lead an RA as LRA. You have done just that already. I put this in the "prior experience in relevantly similar circumstances" category, and I note that you are the only current member of the RA with such experience.

Beathan

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Re: Pat for LRA

Post by Beathan »

Pip,

I was going to ignore your post as being mostly unworthy of a response, but there is one point I think deserves a response.

First, the choice of LRA falls to the RA. It does not follow that the RA should be guided by the voting rather than by a parliamentary choice about who among its members are best able to heard the cats chosen by the voting. Even if that followed, it does not follow that the RA should be guided by the first-choice selections rather than over-all best vote-getter after considering all rankings. In fact, I think that last number is the better indicator of who can lead the RA by consensus. It is not unsurprising that partisan, polarizing figures win election by receiving the top vote of a substantial number of citizens. These candidates also lead in the number of last-place votes as well. The LRA should be a person who can bridge the chasms between factions -- which is best indicated by overall score at the end of the voting -- which indicates that although they were the top choice of few people, they were an acceptable choice of many people.

I don't have Anna's final number, as she was the last seated candidate. However, by that measure, Pat was the top placer (with a score of over 9.9) and I was second (with a score of over 9.0). This clearly indicates that Pat is the most acceptable of all the candidates to the widest range of citizens and should be LRA. If he is not, I should be. Given that I am planning to resign, this might be OK -- as the LRA could then be selected based on the by-election and I could be interim LRA pending the by-election.

(Note, I don't really understand the math of the voting system as presented in the spreadsheet, and I might be reading it wrong. If so, I hope that someone can tell me who received the highest score when all place votes are totaled.)

Beathan

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Re: Pat for LRA

Post by Rose Springvale »

Somethings missing here... weren't you resigning Beathan? so we might elect someone from the new group? Just asking.

Rosie and Anna are both "mid comers".. they are not old enough to be lumped into the old guard, nor so new that they don't know CDS.Both have experience in CDS administration. Either or both of them would be great as LRA. Pat has done it before (and i think quit?) and while i'm sure Shep would be great, i'm not sure she's been around long enough to handle the likes of ... well. You. :)

Best of luck in the by election.

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Re: Pat for LRA

Post by Beathan »

Rose Springvale wrote:

Somethings missing here... weren't you resigning Beathan? so we might elect someone from the new group? Just asking.

Rosie and Anna are both "mid comers".. they are not old enough to be lumped into the old guard, nor so new that they don't know CDS.Both have experience in CDS administration. Either or both of them would be great as LRA. Pat has done it before (and i think quit?) and while i'm sure Shep would be great, i'm not sure she's been around long enough to handle the likes of ... well. You. :)

Best of luck in the by election.

Rose,

I think Shep would have no problem with the likes of ... well, me. However, I think that it is kind of throwing her into the deep end to make her LRA (even though she received the most first place votes in the election). I agree that both Anna and Rosie would make great LRAs -- in other circumstances. They are too tied up with the issue about new citizens for that. Pat is tied up, too (as he observes), but less so (for the reasons I stated).

Yes, I plan to resign after setting up a by-election. I may be re-elected. Someone new may replace me. Someone old may replace me. Someone of the middling sort may replace me. I leave that up to the voters. Also, I am hopeful that we can change the rules to re-enfranchise the new citizens and increase the size of the RA based on that fact so that the by-election is even more meaningful. I would also like to see the whole RA resign in favor of a by-election, but I am not hopeful that that will happen.

However, I don't think I can resign if the by-election would be just a single-seat reprise of the flawed general election. I was elected to fix the problem by setting up a proper by-election and then to resign to trigger the by-election. I was not elected to just resign.

Beathan

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Re: Pat for LRA

Post by Shep »

Hmmm it's very interesting to read others opinions of oneself lol .. and I thank those with a protection agenda .. and likewise those who think I'll survive if flung into the bear pit ... in truth as long as you forgive the faux pas that will be inevitable ..I'm up for giving it a go ... I was Chair of my handicapped son's school PTFA for 5 years and was on the committee for two years before that... so the only draw back I have is that I'm a slow typist ... you will get used to my shorter than average posts .. when I'm under pressure I try to cut the jargon ... having said all that .. if you all prefer to give LRA to another RA member I will be just as happy .. what I want is to help reinvigorate the CDS ... I thank You! *bows

I am not a sheep ... I am the Shepherdess .. An it harm none .. so mote it be ..
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Re: Pat for LRA

Post by Beathan »

If Shep says she can do it, that's enough for me. She was the top vote-getter in the first-place voting, so if that is an indication of who the community wants to be LRA, she should be. If Pat won't be, I'm for Shep.

Beathan

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Re: Pat for LRA

Post by Shep »

Beathan wrote:

If Shep says she can do it, that's enough for me. She was the top vote-getter in the first-place voting, so if that is an indication of who the community wants to be LRA, she should be. If Pat won't be, I'm for Shep.

Beathan

Thanks for the vote of confidence Beathan ... look forward to working with you whatever the outcome :)

I am not a sheep ... I am the Shepherdess .. An it harm none .. so mote it be ..
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