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Sudane Erato
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Plain english please...

Post by Sudane Erato »

While I think its wonderful that we have attracted RL lawyers to our community, and thus gain some perspective on how legal procedures should be done, there is a down side: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 632#p18713

While I have frequently heard the phrase "habeus corpus", I have no idea what it means. And I challenge anyone other than a lawyer to explain what "Writ of Mandamus" means. And... please... I don't mean providing definitions here, in this thread, simply because I asked. I mean using plain english in the actual appeals themselves, so that all of us understand what is being talked about.

I can't recall either Rose or Jamie using legal jargon in any of our proceedings. May I ask that those people who feel they must use jargon for important matters such as an appeal to the SC make certain to provide plain english versions which are equally as valid as the legal shorthand which they replace?

Sudane..................................

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Beathan
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Re: Plain english please...

Post by Beathan »

Sudane,

I see your point. However, I note that in the last SC transcript, the SC appears to have rejected a homespun petition because it was not properly draped in legalese. I also understand that Soro has recommended that a couple citizens consult with attorneys with regard to SC matters. I think that, along with much else that has occurred on the SC in the last few terms, goes in the wrong direction -- but, as a lawyer, I can oblige.

A "Writ" is an order a person receives from a court directing that someone (usually a governmental actor) take or stop taking some action. For private persons, the term "injunction" is often used instead (and in modern practice, governments are also subject to injunctions).

Habeas Corpus is a kind of writ dating from ancient law. It literally means "produce the body." Originally, it was used to get a court order requiring that the government who had imprisoned someone illegally (without charge, etc.) produce them into the jurisdiction of the court. Once they were out of jail in in the care of the court, the court freed them. We don't have dungeons in SL. We have banning. However, the same logic applies. If a person has been banned from the CDS without following the proper process for banning, a writ from the SC should be available to reverse the ban as unlawful (unconstitutional). I think we might as well call that a "Writ of Habeas Corpus" because of the parallels.

Mandamus means "we command." A writ of mandamus is an order of a court that a government or official do something that it, he or she is not doing (by accident, from oversight, neglect, intent, etc.) but has an obligation to do. It essentially says "X must do A; X is not doing, or has not done, A; therefore we command that X do A."

I would rather that the SC proceed with plain English than with this mess of forgotten Latin we use in the law. However, the SC appears to want to go in a different direction, even though only a handful of us can really follow it there.

I do note that my petitions were published on these forums. I don't see that the publication of petitions is a usual process of the SC. (It's been done before, but not often and not at all, as near as I can tell, by the last terms SC.) However, I think it should be. I applaud the SC for publishing my petitions and think that the SC should, in the spirit of openness, start doing that more regularly. That would allow input on the petition process before the SC hearing that could have several benefits: 1. inartfully worded petitions could receive some friendly suggested editing, making the SC's job easier by providing it with clearer documents; 2. public light and public discussion might resolve some issues without the need for SC intervention; 3. the importance of matters coming to the SC could be better assessed by all citizens without the need for guessing based on an agenda bulletpoint.

Beathan

Let's keep things simple enough to be fair, substantive enough to be effective, and insightful enough to be good.
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Delia Lake
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Re: Plain english please...

Post by Delia Lake »

Beathan, please do be more specific here.

the SC appears to have rejected a homespun petition because it was not properly draped in legalese.

To my knowledge and certainly in my time on the SC we have never rejected a petition on the grounds that it was not properly draped in legalese.

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Shep
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Re: Plain english please...

Post by Shep »

Sudane .. you have my vote on that one! Whilst I can make sense of such writings I certainly am not trained to think that way .. :D

I am not a sheep ... I am the Shepherdess .. An it harm none .. so mote it be ..
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Re: Plain english please...

Post by Beathan »

Delia Lake wrote:

Beathan, please do be more specific here.

the SC appears to have rejected a homespun petition because it was not properly draped in legalese.

To my knowledge and certainly in my time on the SC we have never rejected a petition on the grounds that it was not properly draped in legalese.

Delia,

Your reply is too cute by half.

At the last session of the SC, in hearing Cleo's Petition, the SC first made it a "no discussion item" -- meaning that it could not be explained or supplemented by persons in attendance, and then rejected it because it lacked full explanation. That is as complete a miscarriage of justice and abuse of process as I have ever seen. One benefit of legalese -- perhaps the only benefit -- is that it does tend to force people to be expansive in their pleadings, which allows the pleadings to stand for themselves.

I have come to the conclusion that the procedural rules under which the SC is operating, which appear to be rules that they created for themselves, are not compatible with Section 6 of the Constitution, which provides "The SC shall act as the Court of Common Jurisdiction, with the Dean of the SC appointing Chairs of the SC to hear specific trials, under the Code of Procedure previously passed by the RA, with any appeals heard by the full SC." First, there is no such thing as a "no discussion" trial. Trials involve a trying of the proofs -- which requires active and often lengthy discussion and involvement, not just with the court but also with the litigants. Second, by truncating the trial and appeal process, the SC has essentially denied all citizens the right of appeal, and has denied itself the opportunity to hear highly contested matters with the benefit of having a trial and trial record available prior to full SC review.

The SC is a complete broken mess. Please get your house in order or I will make it a priority for this session of the RA that we do so.

Beathan

Let's keep things simple enough to be fair, substantive enough to be effective, and insightful enough to be good.
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Re: Plain english please...

Post by Rose Springvale »

Yikes Beathan! Is anything in CDS not broken? Your priorities keep multiplying. You seem to have a lot of time on your hands these days, so why not lead a new "judiciary Commission" Beathan, and leave the SC in place while you rewrite the code? This all just feels very familiar.

For anyone who REALLY wants to go down this SC revisionist road, I hope you read the prior "Judiciary Act" discussion. Another "divisive" time in CDS!

The reality is that CDS doesn't need judges and juries. The disputes that arguably can come before it are already dealt with by virtue of Second Life. If there is an "intruding prim" as Jos proposes, the land owner has the right to return it. If there is an intruding build... the chancellor has the right to have it taken down. Harassment can be handled by muting, ejecting and in extreme cases, banning. We have officers with the power to deal "summarily" (that's a legal term that means, just do it") with almost any problem. The other issues are things the legislature can change if they want to.

I just read the "writ"... won't comment on the use of this legal procedure...
::rolling eyes::

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Patroklus Murakami
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Re: Plain english please...

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

I agree with Rose. We have no need of a judiciary. We should reform the SC so that it explicitly does not have an involvement in resolving citizen disputes. Adults hold be encouraged to do that on their own.

The SC will need to consider cases where a non-citizen is banned and wants to appeal but, let's retain a sense of proportion. Some random griefer does not deserve hours of our time.

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Re: Plain english please...

Post by Beathan »

C'mon guys.

I am not advocating creation of a full judiciary or even a judiciary commission, and anyone reading my posts over the last month cannot be surprised that my primary criticism falls on the SC. My point is not that we need a judiciary and judicial procedure different from the SC; my point is that we need the SC to follow the Constitutionally mandated procedure (which provides for due process and appeal, and which I think I wrote (in part at least) with the essential goal of providing those things as simply, minimally and non-controversially as possible). My specific point is that This SC is failing to comply with that mandated procedure, denying rights of due process and appeal as a result.

I think that we should do two things -- and the RA may be the part of our project to do them. First, we should consider and implement real SC reforms. Pat has a proposal on this that looks like a very good starting point for the discussion. Second, we need to make sure that the SC procedure tracks and complies with the Constitutional mandate. It does not. That must change. Hopefully the SC will fix this on its own, but if not, the RA must step in and do so.

Beathan.

Last edited by Beathan on Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Plain english please...

Post by Bromo Ivory »

I am not a lawyer - and I am distressed that the SC may be demanding legalese - when with a group of 70-odd citizens we ought to be small enough to not require it.

Also if the "advice" given by Soro is relayed correctly, it seems unfitting for the Dean of the SC to ask someone to consult with lawyers.

==
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Re: Plain english please...

Post by Delia Lake »

Posted by Beathan,

At the last session of the SC, in hearing Cleo's Petition, the SC first made it a "no discussion item" -- meaning that it could not be explained or supplemented by persons in attendance, and then rejected it because it lacked full explanation.

Filing

was really to generous a word to use here. What came to the SC was CLEO's claim in what appears to have been conversation to Soro. Nevertheless we put CLEO's claim on the Agenda for the SC Meeting with the text of that claim being:
oh i am filing a claim about kellie, she is ineligible to vote
does it need a notcard
she has never paid 250 L to be a citizen
Jia , who is sDolphins partner has though
i am protesting both of their categoris of eleigibility formally now

From the Agenda for the SC Meeting of November 27 found at http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3621
2. Filing with the SC by CLEOPATRA Xigalia on 2011-11-20. The CLAIM is that Kellie Wellesley,named as a partner of Anna Toussaint on the Treasurer’s citizens list, is ineligible to vote as she has never paid and that Jia53 Resident, not named on the citizens list, is eligible to vote. The format for this Agenda Item is ND.
Resolution: Yes or no vote. A landowner plus the group member who have given notecards to the Treasurer and are subsequently listed on the Treasurer’s list of citizens in good standing are eligible to vote in elections.

CLEO was not present at the SC Meeting, neither were Kellie or jia.
From the Meeting Transcript at http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3622, with my bolding re the proponent.
Soro Dagostino: Moving on the agenda . . . Item 2
Soro Dagostino: A No Discussion matter.
Soro Dagostino: I note for the record the proponent is not present.
Soro Dagostino: So the vote is either up or down.
Soro Dagostino: Yes [or Aye] if the claim is correct and Nay if not.
Soro Dagostino: Ready for the question?
Soro Dagostino: Is there a motion?
Callipygian Christensen: Point of order, if that is the appropriate terminology, if there is a motion is it not required to allow for discussion?
Soro Dagostino: Delia?
Delia Lake: the claim by CLEOPATRA, summarized is that Kellie Wellesley, listed partner of Anna Toussaint is not eligible to vote; Jia53 Resident, group member but nonlisted partner of SDolphin Resident is eligible to vote.
Callipygian Christensen: I am saying I dont think an ND item is an item requiring a motion - it sepcifies just a vote
Soro Dagostino: Not according to Roberts.
Soro Dagostino: Its a non-debateable motion.
Delia Lake: re CDS SC procedures, "For a "no discussion" item members of the SC will only be asked for their preference in relation to the alternatives outlined and a brief justification for preferring this alternative. Members will be asked in an order chosen by the Dean and all statements and votes will be recorded into the journal of the meeting. "
Soro Dagostino: But a motion none the less.
Delia Lake: not exactly following Roberts, lol. and perhaps should at sometime brought into accord
Callipygian Christensen: Thank you Delia..you cut and paste faster than i do
Soro Dagostino: My apologies, Roberts trained . . .
Soro Dagostino: Lets call the question?
Soro Dagostino: Lilith?
Soro Dagostino: Your preference?
Lilith Ivory: hard to say as I don?t have any back ground info about this case
Tor Karlsvalt feels a cold winter breeze down off the mountain.
Delia Lake: applicable laws are cited in the Agenda
Vespasian Cortes: feels uber tired
Callipygian Christensen: I will speak while Lilith reviews if you like - it's hard to process all the laws and so on when new
Delia Lake: and particularly. "A group representative shall provide to the Treasurer, in a timely fashion, the list of citizen members, and their respective allocations."
Soro Dagostino: Calli?
Delia Lake: from Amendment to NL5-9 Group Land Ownership Act
Tor Karlsvalt: Hi Pip
Soro Dagostino: From a reading of the material I agree that no action be taken on this petition.
Lilith Ivory: I only see Cleos claim here without any proof if those citizens paid or not or are group memebrs or not
Pip Torok: hi Tor
Callipygian Christensen: I vote Nay. The citizenship list was accurate based on the laws, and povidided by Sudane using the tools available to her. (it has been pointed out elswhere that simplifying those laws and improving those tools and processes should be addressed)
Vespasian Cortes: hi pip
Pip Torok: hi V
Shep Titian: Hi Pip
Pip Torok: shep! hi
Shep Titian: Thx for your congrats :)
Soro Dagostino: akd Nay
Soro Dagostino: Delia?
Delia Lake: Nay. CLEO's claim is not valid
Soro Dagostino: Lilith?
Lilith Ivory: nay
Soro Dagostino: Petition is denied.

For citizenship validation regarding eligibility to vote we must rely on the records kept by the CDS Treasurer who is Sudane Erato. In accord with the laws for citizenship via group ownership of land, NL 5-9 and its amendment NL 7-7, in order to have someone else in the group gain citizenship, the group owner notifies the Treasurer as to who will be a citizen via that group, the Treasurer sets up the payment according to the system used in that sim, and adds that citizen to the list of current CDS citizens. Kellie Wellesley was and is on the Treasurers list as a partner of Anna Toussiant in the land purchased by Anna and deeded to the group Vesta LA. Some citizens on that list were identified as being in arrears in tier payment. Kellie Wellesley was not one of those in arrears. jia 53 Resident was not listed as a citizen as of October 15 on the Treasurer's list.

As I stated earlier in this post, CLEO did not come to the meeting, Kellie did not come to the meeting and jia53 did not come to the meeting. It is interesting to me that jia53 herself has not petitioned the SC regarding her citizenship and eligibility to vote as of October 15, 2011. To my knowledge, CLEO is not nor has ever been CDS Treasurer or a member of the the Treasury support team where she would have seen records of actual tier payments made by citizens. The claim put forth by CLEO was not a petition rejected by the SC because it lacked full explanation as you claim, Beathan. CLEO's claim was denied by the SC because it lacked validity according to the laws and records of the CDS.

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Re: Plain english please...

Post by Beathan »

For the record, the similar petition I filed was filed by me at the specific request of SDolphin. It is based on information I received from him in a thorough interview (not unlike my ordinary client interview prior to rl litigation). He also reviewed it for accuracy before I submitted it.

Additionally, for the Record, if the SC were following the Constitutionally mandated and Statutory procedure that is was supposed to be following, the problem of parties not attending or submitting inadequately fleshed out Petitions would not apply.

The Constitutional and Statutory Procedure to which I refer is analyzed here:

http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3641

Beathan

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