Transcript of the January 7 meeting of the RA

[Anna Toussaint]

[2012/01/07 09:10] Anna Toussaint: we can begin ... I apologize to beathan for the wrong llinks\
[2012/01/07 09:10] Anna Toussaint: he has posted to chat the correct ones
[2012/01/07 09:10] Anna Toussaint: we shall review the agenda ... are there any other corrections
[2012/01/07 09:11] Anna Toussaint: or additions?
[2012/01/07 09:11] Rosie Gray: the Dec agenda is in the box, btw
[2012/01/07 09:11] Anna Toussaint: yes
[2012/01/07 09:11] Rosie Gray: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3711
[2012/01/07 09:11] Anna Toussaint: I haven't had a chance to put the new one in
[2012/01/07 09:11] Rosie Gray: there's the link for today's
[2012/01/07 09:11] Anna Toussaint: but the links to Beathan's bills are wrong
[2012/01/07 09:11] Shep Titian: Thanks Rosie
[2012/01/07 09:12] Beathan Vale: I would like to withdraw my stipend bill (at least for the moment)
[2012/01/07 09:12] Beathan Vale: I think it would not counterproductive ot consider it in the current posture
[2012/01/07 09:13] Beathan Vale: People are focussing on tangential issues rather than considering the substance, best if heads cool so people can focus on what it is really about and what it would reall do, rather than on real or perceived personal criticisms
[2012/01/07 09:13] Anna Toussaint: ok, thanks ... any other corrections?
[2012/01/07 09:14] Rosie Gray: not from me
[2012/01/07 09:14] Anna Toussaint: I have updated the link on the forum, by the way
[2012/01/07 09:14] Anna Toussaint: it is now correct
[2012/01/07 09:14] Anna Toussaint: and you can get to the by-election proposal from that one
[2012/01/07 09:14] Rosie Gray: thank you
[2012/01/07 09:15] Beathan Vale: Also - not the amendment to the by-election proposal. I have withdrawn the "whereas" statements
[2012/01/07 09:15] Anna Toussaint: ok ,,, noted
[2012/01/07 09:15] Beathan Vale: Gwyn correctly pointed out that they were needlessly controversial
[2012/01/07 09:15] Anna Toussaint:
[2012/01/07 09:15] Anna Toussaint: ok .. we have bills from only one person, who is here to speak to them
[2012/01/07 09:16] Anna Toussaint: and I thank Beathan for modifiying his schedule to be here
[2012/01/07 09:16] Anna Toussaint: Pat will not be heare, and he has requested a 7-day vote
[2012/01/07 09:17] Anna Toussaint: It is time for citizens concerns
[2012/01/07 09:17] Anna Toussaint: are there any?
[2012/01/07 09:17] Anna Toussaint: RA Members' concerns?
[2012/01/07 09:17] Shep Titian: Yes I have one
[2012/01/07 09:18] Anna Toussaint: Shep
[2012/01/07 09:18] Beathan Vale: me too
[2012/01/07 09:18] Anna Toussaint: then beathan
[2012/01/07 09:18] Anna Toussaint: Rosie?
[2012/01/07 09:18] Rosie Gray: no I don't, thanks
[2012/01/07 09:18] Anna Toussaint: go for it, Shep
[2012/01/07 09:18] Shep Titian: I would like to know what is happening about voting on the public buildings
[2012/01/07 09:18] Anna Toussaint: thank you ...
[2012/01/07 09:18] Rosie Gray: Hi Pip
[2012/01/07 09:19] Anna Toussaint: Hi, Pip!
[2012/01/07 09:19] Shep Titian: Hi Pip
[2012/01/07 09:19] Pip Torok: hi Rosie , hi all ..
[9:19] Anna Toussaint: Shep, wrgt the voting, that is Trebor's domain
[9:19] Beathan Vale: I would like to hear a formal report in RA session from the Executive before we act on approving or disapproving the Chancellor's building project
[9:19] Anna Toussaint: could you reserve the question until he gets here?
[9:19] Shep Titian: Trebor has cleared the site and the competing builds have been in a since Monday
[9:20] Anna Toussaint: yup
[9:20] Anna Toussaint: again, he is not here to answer your questions
[9:20] Shep Titian: Ok
[9:20] Anna Toussaint: can anybody present shed some light?
[9:20] Beathan Vale: maybe we can get a sense of the RA though -- how do members feel about the builds as built?
[9:21] Anna Toussaint: personally, I like some of them, and dislike others
[9:21] Anna Toussaint: anybody else?
[9:21] Shep Titian: SAme here
[9:21] Rosie Gray: same with me
[9:21] Beathan Vale: Perhaps we should compare notes to see if our preferences align and then address the parts of the build we don't like
[9:22] Anna Toussaint: It seems to me that as there has not been a result published, that we cannot approve or disapprove of the build
[9:22] Rosie Gray: I'm not sure why a personal dwelling was included though
[9:22] Rosie Gray: I agree, there hasn't been any kind of presentation
[9:22] Rosie Gray: other than informally
[9:22] Anna Toussaint: perhaps it will be in the executive report
[9:22] Anna Toussaint: perhaps not
[9:22] Beathan Vale: Anna -- I think that we can direct the Chancellor to make modifications through an RA passed Act at any time
[9:22] Anna Toussaint: I think we can
[9:23] Anna Toussaint: are you making such a proposal?
[9:23] Rosie Gray: I think we need to have it written down which buildings are considered for what purpose
[9:23] Beathan Vale: but I would prefer that any such actio be put on a published agenda -- rather than added at the session
[9:23] Anna Toussaint: it has to be in the form of a motion
[9:23] Anna Toussaint: I agree, Beathan
[9:23] Anna Toussaint: in my opinion, we should do it up front, in a published agenfda
[9:24] Anna Toussaint: we can direct the executive to produce a report, however
[9:24] Beathan Vale: agreed
[9:24] Rosie Gray: I agree also
[9:24] Anna Toussaint: Shep?
[9:24] Rosie Gray: is someone making a motion?
[9:24] Beathan Vale: I move that we request a Chancellor's report on his build
[9:24] Shep Titian: sorry agree
[9:25] Rosie Gray: I second the motion
[9:25] Anna Toussaint: ok all in favor, vote aye
[9:25] Shep Titian: aye
[9:25] Rosie Gray: aye
[9:25] Beathan Vale: the report should include a detailed report on each building
[9:25] Beathan Vale: aye
[9:25] Anna Toussaint: included in the motion, beathan
[9:25] Anna Toussaint: the chair votes aye
[9:25] Anna Toussaint: any other citizen concerns?
[9:26] Anna Toussaint: opps
[9:26] Anna Toussaint: oops
[9:26] Beathan Vale: we can then use the building-by-building report to adress specific concerns about specific buildings
[9:26] Anna Toussaint: RA concerns
[9:26] Beathan Vale: I have one
[9:26] Rosie Gray: when I looked at the builds, every one of them requires some adjustments to be acceptable
[9:26] Anna Toussaint: yes, I agree
[9:26] Anna Toussaint: yes?
[9:26] Anna Toussaint: Beathan?
[9:27] Beathan Vale: I have a number of compounding concerns about the actions and practices of the SC
[9:27] Anna Toussaint: ah
[9:27] Beathan Vale: To start with, it is not following the procedure the RA has mandated for it -- found here http://portal.slcds.info/?qa_faqs=nl-5- ... ayer-rules.
[9:27] Beathan Vale: Further, I believe that it is acting in a generally unfettered and frequently prejudiced manner.
[9:28] Beathan Vale: I know that Pat has previously proposed a series of reforms, which I support in general and in principle
[9:28] Beathan Vale: I would like the RA, this session, to devote substantial work to reforming the SC -- using Pat's proposal as a starting point.
[9:28] Beathan Vale: I would invite consultation - but not guidance or direction -- from the current members of the SC
[9:29] Beathan Vale: This discussion should proceed on the understanding that the RA has and maintains general control to regulate the SC and provide procedural dictates to it
[9:29] Anna Toussaint: will you and Pat get together to produce a set of proposals?
[9:30] Shep Titian: Hi Calli
[9:30] Beathan Vale: My understanding is that the SC has the power to develop and implement its own procedures -- but only within the perameters set by the RA -- and that the SC is currently operating outside the statutory perameters set by previous RAs
[9:30] Beathan Vale: Done
[9:30] Callipygian Christensen: hi again Shep
[9:30] Beathan Vale: Yes, I will work with Pat on this
[9:30] Anna Toussaint: and post them for public debate on the forum?
[9:30] Anna Toussaint: in the legislative discussion section?
[9:30] Soro Dagostino accepted your inventory offer.
[9:30] Anna Toussaint: thank you
[9:31] Anna Toussaint: any other RA concerns?
[9:31] Beathan Vale: I will also cross post in judiciary public discussion to invite public input
[9:31] Anna Toussaint: good ... thanks!@
[9:31] Callipygian Christensen raises her hand
[9:31] Anna Toussaint: calli?
[9:31] Ingrid Manen is Offline
[9:32] Callipygian Christensen: Apologies MadameChair for being split betweentwo meetings today - if tehe comments I came in to were regarding reforming the way the SC does its work I have a suggestion
[9:32] Callipygian Christensen accepted your inventory offer.
[9:32] Anna Toussaint: yes?
[9:32] Beathan Vale: yes, please offer it
[9:33] Callipygian Christensen: Since Delia and i are both working on drafts for discussion on that already, perhaps it would make sense foreathan and Pat to work with us instead of doing two separate sets?
[9:33] Callipygian Christensen: for Beathan*
[9:34] Callipygian Christensen: It might b mre efcient fr on draft, supportd y both SC and RA to be underdiscussion
[9:34] Anna Toussaint: Beathan?
[9:34] Callipygian Christensen: argh..darn keyboard
[9:34] Beathan Vale: That does make sense -- but please note that I conceive that the final prerogative rests with the RA except to the extent we act in a manner that specifically contradicts a Constitutional provisionn
[9:34] Anna Toussaint: ok .. we will leave it up to y'all to work out the details of this collaboration
[9:35] Beathan Vale: We can do that work on the forums -- in the judiciary discussion board -- if meeting inworld is cumversome
[9:35] Callipygian Christensen: The draft Delia and I are working on was fo discussion and presentation to RA, Beathan, so I dont see a problm there
[9:35] Beathan Vale: great -- thans
[9:35] Beathan Vale: thanks
[9:35] Anna Toussaint: any other RA concerns?
[9:35] Anna Toussaint: any old business we need to clean up?
[9:36] Anna Toussaint: ok, onto new business
[9:36] Anna Toussaint: the proposals from Beathan are here:
[9:36] Anna Toussaint: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3623
[9:37] Anna Toussaint: we will take them in the order of the post
[9:37] Beathan Vale: The first one is easy to state and understand, I think
[9:38] Anna Toussaint: can you read Pat's proposal into the chat record?
[9:38] Beathan Vale: at the end of the last term -- to address a concern about ineligible citizens being included on the initially published voting list, the RA passed a Constitutional Amendment specifically addressing (among other things) the eligibility date for citizens to vote for this term of the RA
[9:39] Beathan Vale: It was intended to apply only to the general election -- but the word "general" was omitted -- meaning that it applies, on its terms, to any "election" to this term -- including a by-election
[9:39] Beathan Vale: (That is disputed - -but the language is ambiguous)
[9:40] Anna Toussaint: can you read it into the chat record as it stands now?
[9:40] Beathan Vale: To clarify, I would simply add the word "general" to the previously passed Constittuional amendment
[9:40] Anna Toussaint: or provide a link?
[9:40] Beathan Vale: (I'll try in a second)
[9:40] Anna Toussaint: thanks ...
[9:41] Beathan Vale: I note that Pat accepted this change to his wording as a friendly amendment when I mentioned it at the RA session that passed his proposal -- but because neither he nor I were members of that RA, and no RE member took up the change, it was not included
[9:42] Beathan Vale: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3583
[9:42] Anna Toussaint: by the way, the latest agenda is now in the box
[9:42] Anna Toussaint: thank you, Beathan
[9:42] Beathan Vale: I would add the word "general" before the word "election in the amendment to Art V, Sect 3
[9:42] Anna Toussaint: this is a motion?
[9:42] Beathan Vale: I move for a vote on my proposal -- it is technically a Constitutional Amendment
[9:42] Anna Toussaint: is there a second?
[9:43] Rosie Gray: give us a min
[9:43] Anna Toussaint: k
[9:44] Shep Titian: I did type I'll second I don't know where it went
[9:44] Callipygian Christensen raises her hand
[9:44] Anna Toussaint: kk ... moved and seconded
[9:44] Anna Toussaint: Calli?
[9:44] Rosie Gray: sorry I don't see Art V, Sect 3
[9:44] Callipygian Christensen: just putting my place in for after RA members have had their say Anna
[9:44] Ivanho Resident is Online
[9:44] Rosie Gray: oops... sorry, see it now
[9:45] Anna Toussaint:
[9:45] Callipygian Christensen: or now, if you prefer lol
[9:45] Anna Toussaint: go ahead ... its' open for discussion
[9:46] Callipygian Christensen: I think Pat has commented in the forum he sees no need for this (since his name is in the discussion) and i dont believe it necessary either .
[9:46] Callipygian Christensen: the wording reads 'the election', not any election , or byelection..
[9:46] Callipygian Christensen: if a byelection were called tomorrow it would be a totally separate event, and dates would be calculated going back from the date the byelection was called
[9:47] Beathan Vale: the problem is that the Constition, when it refers to a "general election" uses the term "general election" -- making the words "the election" ambiguous -- ambiguities should be avoided or corrected
[9:47] Callipygian Christensen: if the SC (of which I am a member, though speaking now as a citizszen) were to define who qualifies to vote etc by any other way I'd be standing next to Beathan arguing that it was wrong
[9:48] Anna Toussaint: any other discussion?
[9:48] Rosie Gray: I don't see the point either
[9:48] Rosie Gray: it seems irrelevant to me
[9:48] Beathan Vale: even if potentially unnecessary, I see no reason not to be precise and unambiguous
[9:49] Shep Titian: If adding a word eliminates any possible future problem lets just do it
[9:49] Shep Titian: And move on
[9:49] Beathan Vale: especially because the addition is not cnotroversial
[9:49] Rosie Gray: it was only referring to the 16th RA and Chancellor elections
[9:49] Beathan Vale: and a by-election will be an election to the 16th RA
[9:50] Pip Torok agrees with Shep
[9:50] Anna Toussaint: are we ready to call it to a vote? It is a constitutional amendment, so requires 4 votes, am I right?
[9:50] Beathan Vale: yes anna -- I think so
[9:50] Beathan Vale: I call a vote
[9:50] Anna Toussaint: the question has been called
[9:50] Beathan Vale: or move to vote rather
[9:50] Anna Toussaint:
[9:51] Anna Toussaint: all in favor, say "aye"
[9:51] Beathan Vale: aye
[9:51] Shep Titian: Aye
[9:51] Anna Toussaint: the chair votes "aye" -- I see no harm
[9:51] Rosie Gray: okay I vote aye too
[9:52] Anna Toussaint: ok there are four "ayes" ... the motion has passed, though rememver the final vote is not in
[9:52] Anna Toussaint: next proposal ... Beathan?
[9:53] Soro Dagostino: sorry I must go.
[9:53] Beathan Vale: OK -- the next is a substantive proposal which should probablt also be a Constitutional Amendment essentially recalculating the size of the RA whenever we have an election - -including a by-election
[9:54] Rosie Gray: bye Soro
[9:54] Shep Titian: Bye Soro
[9:55] Anna Toussaint: here is the link: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 623#p18634
[9:55] Beathan Vale: I would add, afte rthe words "The number of representative seats in the RA is equal to the odd whole number nearest to 10% of the population, rounded down, with a minimum of five seats and a maximum of forty seats." in Section 2 the words "The size of the RA shall be recalculated per this section whenever an election to the RA is held, including a by-election. If the number of citizens has declined such that the RA is calculated as smaller, then no by-election shall be held to fill the vacated seat of a departing RA member. If the population has grown such that the size of the RA would increase, then the by-election shall be held to fill the vacated seat and any new seats."
[9:55] Beathan Vale: Something like that
[9:55] Anna Toussaint: we are considering number 2
[9:56] Beathan Vale: I believe that this would provide fuller franchise to all citizens
[9:56] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: Shadowgirlsk [9:57] Anna Toussaint: ok .,.. can you read into the chat record the entire amendment as you are proposing it?
[9:57] Anna Toussaint: including your additions?
[9:57] Anna Toussaint: we need a clean copy ...
[9:57] anaa Inventor is Online
[9:57] Beathan Vale: Ok
[9:57] Anna Toussaint: for the archivist
[9:57] Anna Toussaint: thanks
[9:57] Anna Toussaint: Hi Tia!
[9:58] Rosie Gray: welcome Tia
[9:58] Shep Titian: Hi Tia
[9:58] Shadowgirlsk Resident: hi everyone
[9:59] Anna Toussaint: while we are waiting. will someone post the transcript for this meeting?
[9:59] Beathan Vale: Amend thhe Second Paragraph of Article 1 by adding "The size of the RA shall be recalculated per this section whenever an election to the RA is held, including a by-election. If the number of citizens has declined such that the RA is calculated as smaller, then no by-election shall be held to fill the vacated seat of a departing RA member. If the population has grown such that the size of the RA would increase, then the by-election shall be held to fill the vacated seat and any new seats."
[9:59] Beathan Vale: Artice 1 SEction 2 - sorry
[10:00] Anna Toussaint: thanks, Beathan
[10:00] Sudane Erato: question
[10:00] Anna Toussaint: that is a motion, is there a second?
[10:00] Anna Toussaint: thanks, Pip!
[10:00] Anna Toussaint: sudane?
[10:00] Shep Titian: Second
[10:01] Anna Toussaint: thanks ...
[10:01] Sudane Erato: does this ammendment intend that a change in the population shall CAUSE a byelection?
[10:01] Anna Toussaint: open for discussion
[10:01] Beathan Vale: Sudane -- No
[10:01] Anna Toussaint: Beathan?
[10:01] Anna Toussaint: oops
[10:01] Anna Toussaint: good ol chat lag
[10:01] Sudane Erato: or that merelyy if a byelection is held, such a rule would apply?
[10:01] Callipygian Christensen: If one person on RA decides it should, yes
[10:01] Rosie Gray: that's a good question Sudane, as it seems open to that interpretation
[10:01] Beathan Vale: A by-election will still be triggered only under the current rules
[10:01] Sudane Erato: done
[10:02] Beathan Vale: and the calculation done only when an otherwise triggered by-election is triggered
[10:02] Callipygian Christensen raises her hand
[10:02] Anna Toussaint: Calli?
[10:02] Rosie Gray: how would the 'current population' be calculated though?
[10:02] Beathan Vale: I see the problem with doing otherwise -- but my thought is that as long as we are having a by-election, we should make it as full as possible
[10:02] Rosie Gray: and from what date?
[10:02] Shep Titian: I personally think as we no longer work by faction that we should use nearest number to 10%
[10:02] Beathan Vale: 28 days prior to the by-election as under tehe current rule
[10:03] Rosie Gray: okay
[10:03] Anna Toussaint: Calli?
[10:03] Callipygian Christensen: I interpret this as any one RA member can vacate their seat with or without the intent to increase the size of RA, but resulting in an increase if population justifies
[10:03] Callipygian Christensen: So the trigger can be used as a political strategy *shrug*
[10:03] Sudane Erato: that rule of calculation won't work for a by-election unless the by election is called with at least 28 days notice
[10:03] Beathan Vale: Calli -- yes -- also a decrease in population could mean that no by-election need be held even if a seat is vacated
[10:04] Sudane Erato: we cannot count population in the past
[10:04] Beathan Vale: Sudane -- why -- can't we see who was a citizen 28 days ago right now?
[10:04] Rosie Gray: yes my concern is for the calculation of days
[10:04] Beathan Vale: OK -- that's a problem
[10:04] Sudane Erato: we don't have the tools for that... as wevidenced by the last non-by election
[10:05] Beathan Vale: I will withdraw my amendent and work on it.
[10:05] Anna Toussaint: amendment is withdrawn
[10:05] Anna Toussaint: Hi, Bells!
[10:05] Callipygian Christensen nods atwhat Sudane said - meaning it additionally pretty much cripples RA for most of a term
[10:05] Rosie Gray: hi Bells
[10:05] Beathan Vale: I think I will propose a change to the elgibility requirement to make any citizen who paid tier the month before a scheduled election to be voting eligible -- and then repropose a combined Amendment
[10:05] Shep Titian: Hi Bells hunni
[10:05] Anna Toussaint: next, the by-election bill hjumber three
[10:05] Bells Semyorka: Hello Everyone
[10:06] Anna Toussaint: it can be found here: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3588
[10:06] Anna Toussaint: Beathan has changed it so that the "whereas's" are no longer there
[10:06] Anna Toussaint: Hi, Tor!
[10:06] Rosie Gray: hiya Tor
[10:07] Beathan Vale: This has been hashed out on the forums -- Many people are not happy with the process and inclusion of the last election; many others have no problems with what happened -- I propose to have a new election in which all seats of the RA will be up for re-election based on who the currently eligible citizens are
[10:07] sabreman Carter is Online
[10:07] Tor Karlsvalt: Hi Anna, all
[10:07] Shep Titian: Hi Tor
[10:07] Anna Toussaint: would you modifiy the dates?
[10:07] Beathan Vale: It would involve another campaign and possibly a change in current RA membership -- but I think it addresses the concern about the last election without really causing anyone any harm
[10:08] Rose Springvale is Offline
[10:08] Beathan Vale: I would amend the proposal to hold the election 35 days from today -- to allow the 7 day vote and the current citizen shapshot for voter eligibility
[10:08] Lilith Ivory is Offline
[10:09] Anna Toussaint: 35 days from today ... that would be?
[10:09] Anna Toussaint: anyone?
[10:09] Tor Karlsvalt accepted your inventory offer.
[10:09] Beathan Vale: I don't believe that this is a Constitutional Amendment
[10:09] Anna Toussaint: it is not in my judgement either
[10:09] Beathan Vale: Second Sat in March, right?
[10:09] Anna Toussaint: note, as I stated, the "whereas's" are no longer there
[10:10] Anna Toussaint: in February, you mean?
[10:10] Beathan Vale: Right
[10:10] Rosie Gray raises hand
[10:10] Robert Galland is Offline
[10:11] Anna Toussaint: that is Feb 11
[10:11] Anna Toussaint: Rosie?
[10:11] Rosie Gray: can we discuss this now?
[10:11] Beathan Vale: probably the standard week -- 11 to 18 or such
[10:11] Anna Toussaint: it hasn't been seconded
[10:12] Anna Toussaint: note the change in date from Jan 1 to Feb 11
[10:12] Anna Toussaint: yes, the standard week I assume
[10:12] Rosie Gray nods
[10:12] Anna Toussaint: is there a second?
[10:13] Beathan Vale: OK -- hearing no second -- I withdraw
[10:13] Shep Titian: I was about to
[10:13] Anna Toussaint: shep seconds
[10:13] Anna Toussaint: now it is open for discussion
[10:13] Beathan Vale: I withdraw my withdrawal
[10:13] Anna Toussaint: Rosie?
[10:13] Anna Toussaint: lol
[10:13] Shep Titian: Its a shame I like it here lol .. but I'll fall on my sword
[10:14] Anna Toussaint: hehehe
[10:14] Rosie Gray: yes I would like Beathan to explain what he means when saying that the 16th RA was elected through an irregular procedure
[10:14] Anna Toussaint: Beathan?
[10:14] Tor Karlsvalt: use a rubber sword
[10:14] Beathan Vale: Well -- Rosie -- that term has been withdrawn
[10:14] Shep Titian: lol
[10:14] Anna Toussaint: the whereas's have been withdrawn
[10:15] Anna Toussaint: but, perhaps the question still stands ...
[10:15] Rosie Gray: okay, then, what is the justification for the by-election?
[10:15] Beathan Vale: But, passing a Constitutional Amendment to change the mechanism of an election late in the day on which the election was supposed to have begun (but wasn't) is an irregular election procedure
[10:16] Beathan Vale: to fix that is one justification; the second justificiation is that it would allow early inclusion of some new citizens who (at least before the election) wanted to be active
[10:16] Beathan Vale: done
[10:16] Rosie Gray: I don't accept that there was a change to the mechanism
[10:16] Rosie Gray: for the past election
[10:16] Shep Titian: Are there many left?
[10:17] Anna Toussaint: many what, shep?
[10:17] Pip Torok wonders that Beathan puts words into Citizens' mouths ...
[10:17] Shep Titian: new citizens
[10:17] Beathan Vale: Rosie -- I know -- but there certainly one -- the election did not happen at the Constitutionally mandated time and a special one-time-onlt Constitutional Amendment was passed to retroactively justify that -- that is an irregular procedure
[10:17] Anna Toussaint: quiet in the peanut gallery
[10:18] Beathan Vale: If this were RL and we had international observers -- there would be news stories about that around the world
[10:18] Rosie Gray: lol
[10:18] Beathan Vale: I also do election monitoring as a volunteer lawyer irl -- and i assure you that something similar would not pass
[10:18] Rosie Gray: well it seems to me this is based on the case of jia53, who actually has no interest it appears in being a voting citizen
[10:19] Beathan Vale: There would be fast and very expensive Constuttional challenges
[10:19] Beathan Vale: Rosie -- no -- I proposed this before I knew anything about jia or her circs
[10:19] Rosie Gray: okay
[10:19] Shep Titian: He did .. I do rember that
[10:20] Anna Toussaint: I have a question for our SC rep, Calli
[10:20] Anna Toussaint: has the SC certified the election?
[10:20] Callipygian Christensen: I can give you an opinion of what I think Anna, but I can't speak for the SC as a whole
[10:20] Anna Toussaint: I understand
[10:20] Anna Toussaint: it is simply a question of what the SC did
[10:20] Beathan Vale: I'm fairly sure the SC has
[10:21] Callipygian Christensen: oh, yes, the SC sees the election that was held as valid
[10:21] Shadowgirlsk Resident: tia raises her hand
[10:21] Anna Toussaint: so, by passing this bill, we will be contradicting the SC\
[10:21] Anna Toussaint: Tia?
[10:22] Beathan Vale: anna -- no -- the RA can choose to resign and reconvene individually or en masse
[10:22] Beathan Vale: Even if the election is valid, we can do that
[10:22] Beathan Vale: that is what I am proposing
[10:22] Shadowgirlsk Resident: beathan, could you direct me to the section of the cds constitution under which you believe the challenge you refer to would be brought
[10:22] Anna Toussaint: ah ... so this bill would require all of us to resign?
[10:22] Beathan Vale: Tia -- I was referring to my work irl
[10:22] Anna Toussaint: sorry, Tia
[10:22] Callipygian Christensen: hi Tia..didnt see you come in
[10:22] Beathan Vale: Anna -- basically, yes
[10:22] Shadowgirlsk Resident: so you were referring tothe us constituion?
[10:24] Beathan Vale: Yes, and several state constittuions - but I think that the challenge could be made here, too -- the problem is that he election was jsutified by a last-minute Constitutional Amendment specifically on point -- so technically, my legal analysis would be, that it was irregular but not unconstitutional -- and the SC is right about Constitutionality
[10:24] Beathan Vale: but that doens't make it right ot proper
[10:24] Rosie Gray: pardon me, but the US constitution is irrelevant here
[10:24] Beathan Vale: and the RA should act appropriately
[10:24] Rosie Gray: it is our consititution that matters
[10:24] Beathan Vale: Rosie -- yes -- except by analogy
[10:24] Shadowgirlsk Resident: as a new citicen could you explain to me why the us and state constitutions are relevant to dcs
[10:25] Beathan Vale: Although, I do have some arguments under the UDHR -- which is diirectly applicalbe
[10:25] Shadowgirlsk Resident: cds
[10:25] Rosie Gray: perhaps you would like to refer to the Canadian constitution then, or the Japanese constitution?
[10:25] Tor Karlsvalt:
[10:25] Anna Toussaint: perhaps it would be useful to recap what led to the problem?
[10:25] Beathan Vale: Tia -- by analogy only -- I was anaologizing to my RL work -- and obesrving that irl what happened here would cause reverberating issues (similar to what we see in Russia right now)
[10:26] Shadowgirlsk Resident: russia?
[10:26] Shep Titian: Or the British Parliament
[10:26] Tor Karlsvalt wonders how the unwritten British Const. would apply
[10:26] Callipygian Christensen raises her hand
[10:26] Pip Torok: :]
[10:26] Rosie Gray: ㋡
[10:26] Beathan Vale: Well -- the UK has no written Constitution -- but the Japanese Constittuion would have a similar effect
[10:26] Anna Toussaint: Order. Calli?
[10:26] Anna Toussaint:
[10:26] Beathan Vale: I don't know the Canadian Constitutional election rules
[10:26] Shadowgirlsk Resident: I am more confused now, but I will be quite
[10:26] Shadowgirlsk Resident: quiet
[10:27] Callipygian Christensen: I think the point may be that the constituiton tht matters hee is the one duly created by the govt of CDS
[10:27] Rosie Gray: my point was, that it is only the CDS constitution that matters here
[10:27] Anna Toussaint: thank you
[10:27] Callipygian Christensen: analogies aside, we act here based on *that* Constituion
[10:27] Beathan Vale: yes -- and I concede that the election was Constitutionally permissible based on the amendment unless the amendment were improper, as it might be under the UDHR
[10:27] Beathan Vale: But -- that seems like a fight not worth having
[10:27] Beathan Vale: So my proposal sidesteps all that by asking for a redo election
[10:28] Rosie Gray: so, can you point to some place in the CDS constitution that was contravened by our election?
[10:28] Callipygian Christensen: recapping something that still has and always will have mutiple disagreeing POV won't help - why not just debate the motion based on now and what it will do
[10:28] Callipygian Christensen: done
[10:28] Anna Toussaint: ok
[10:28] Beathan Vale: Calli -- the CDS imposes the UDHR and gives it Constittuional force - and the election contradicted enfranchisement rights in the UDHR
[10:29] Beathan Vale: the current SC seems unaware that the UDHR has this force in the CDS -- but it does
[10:29] Callipygian Christensen: I disagree Beathan
[10:29] Rosie Gray: (what does UDHR stand for?)
[10:29] Callipygian Christensen: I am fully aware that we recognize the UDHR as part of our laws
[10:29] Beathan Vale: Universal Declaration of Human Rights -- UN document
[10:29] Rosie Gray: thank you
[10:29] Tor Karlsvalt raises hand.
[10:29] Anna Toussaint: Tor?
[10:29] Tor Karlsvalt: yes
[10:30] Klannex Northmead is Online
[10:30] Rosie Gray: so I repeat my request for pointing to where exactly in our constitution were proper election proceedings not followed
[10:30] Tor Karlsvalt: firs the amendment actually included more people in the election as many of the new people would not have been in CDS the required 28 days in order to vote
[10:30] Beathan Vale: the UDHR serves as our version of a bill of rights -- acting as a check on govenmental actioon
[10:31] Beathan Vale: and Rosie -- the UDHR has relevant provisions that prevent this kind of moving rule elections
[10:31] Rosie Gray: what moving rule elections?
[10:31] Beathan Vale: changing the rules instead of convening a proper scheduled election -- and delaying the election to allow application of the new rules
[10:31] Tor Karlsvalt: second this bill esentially assumes it would have been ok to allow people to vote, who did notave the 28 days of citizenship
[10:31] Rosie Gray: we did not change the rules
[10:32] Rosie Gray agrees with Tor
[10:32] Tor Karlsvalt: the rules were ilegal Beathan
[10:32] Beathan Vale: the election did not happen on the date requred -- that by itself is a change in the rules
[10:32] Tor Karlsvalt: they were based on incorrect information
[10:32] Beathan Vale: the election was nto held based on the published list of viters -- that is a chnage in the rules
[10:33] Beathan Vale: the error could and should have been addressed after the fact, rather than through a suspension of the election or the rules
[10:33] Beathan Vale: we now have a dangerous precedent of suspending an election
[10:33] Tor Karlsvalt: The list did not confrom the CDS const.
[10:33] Beathan Vale: and that could and hsould have been addressed after the fact
[10:33] Beathan Vale: suspending elections is NEVER OK
[10:33] Sudane Erato: the election was delayed, not suspended
[10:33] Rosie Gray: Beathan, I repeat, please point to exactly what you are referring to in the CDS constitution that was contravened
[10:34] Beathan Vale: It was suspended for a period of time -- temporary suspensions are still suspensions -- and the precended tends to creep
[10:34] Callipygian Christensen: The actions you call 'irregular' corrected an error in posted dates and established that the correct date had to be used - this caused a delay in the polls opening, but did not delay RA taking it's seats on the appointed date - no disenfranchisement, no suspesion of elections, only a delay waiting for a correct list of candidates
[10:34] Beathan Vale: one week one term; one month the next, etc.
[10:34] Beathan Vale: Calli -- the constitution imposes a specific election date -- that did not happen
[10:34] Beathan Vale: That was a violation of the Constitution
[10:34] Rosie Gray: we must rely on the tools available to us in SL, there is no recourse from that
[10:35] Beathan Vale: yes there is -- SC appeal after the election
[10:35] Beathan Vale: Gwyn has a very good analysis on this subjecy
[10:35] Rosie Gray: and the SC called the election valid
[10:35] Tor Karlsvalt: Thinks either way is valid
[10:35] Beathan Vale: yes -- and if the Amendment, which has not been challenged, was valid, it is
10:35] Beathan Vale: if the Amendment is not valid, it is not
[10:35] Beathan Vale: the Amendment is probably invalid under the UDHR
[10:36] Beathan Vale: However, that would be long fight -- and the issue would be moot
[10:36] Rosie Gray: it's already moot
[10:36] Beathan Vale: so I propose my by-election proposal to sidestep the process such that it is meaningful
[10:36] Callipygian Christensen: Beathan, for those enamoured of political process , holding an election you *know* must be challenged, when the error can be corrected and the RA still form at the appointed date is wasting the voter's time - something that reflects in voter turnout for future elections
[10:36] Beathan Vale: No Rosie, as long as the 16th RA session has time left, we can have a revote for RA memvers
[10:37] Rosie Gray: I see no point in all of this and it only serves to stop us from actually accomplishing anything
[10:37] Tor Karlsvalt recalls that an election was held and nobody who was a citizen in good standing for the required period could not vote.
[10:37] Rosie Gray: exactly, Tor
[10:37] Beathan Vale: Calli -- that might be an effect -- but I think it is less harmful than allowing the last election to pass withotu challenge
[10:37] Pip Torok cheers Rosie's observation
[10:37] Rosie Gray: there was no disenfranchisement
[10:37] Rosie Gray: that is a red-herring
[10:38] Beathan Vale: there was certainly perceived and experienced disenfrachisement
[10:38] Rosie Gray: no there were not, Beathan
[10:38] Beathan Vale: and we have lost new citizens who would have been great members of our community as result
[10:39] Tor Karlsvalt: jump in logic
[10:39] Beathan Vale: Rosie -- people have perceived that they were disenfranchised and have told me so
[10:39] Sudane Erato: that is totally untrue
[10:39] Rosie Gray: we have lost new citizens who apparently are not interested enough to stay more than 1 month here
[10:39] Rosie Gray: and I repeat that there was no disenfranchisement
[10:39] Beathan Vale: whether they were as a matter of law is a different question -- but one that would have been better handled more deliberately after the eleciton than in the hurried and botched job we made of it
[10:39] Pip Torok: "would have been"? that is SF writers' "logic" ...
[10:39] Tor Karlsvalt: i am sure they did Beathan, even tho some of them I wager never paid a dime in tier
[10:40] Beathan Vale: well -- this is getting nowhere -- I move to vote
[10:40] Anna Toussaint: ok ... now we are descending into heresay, folks
[10:40] Anna Toussaint:
[10:40] Anna Toussaint: let us vote
[10:40] Sudane Erato: the perception of disenfranchishment was as a result of CLEO's telling them they could vote when in fact they were not yet qualified
[10:40] Rosie Gray: exactly, let's keep things factual
[10:40] Anna Toussaint: all in favor of the motion on the table, please say "aye"
[10:40] Tor Karlsvalt: hear hear sudane
[10:41] Shep Titian: I do know of one
[10:41] Anna Toussaint: quiet in the peanut gallery!
[10:41] Beathan Vale: Sudane -- I'm not arguing about the cause of the perception -- I am only responding to the reality that some people perceived it that way and that was unfortunate and somethign we shoudl act to fix
[10:41] Anna Toussaint: the vote has been called
[10:41] Shep Titian: And Cleo and I are no longer in touch
[10:41] Anna Toussaint: by beathan
[10:41] Bells Semyorka: as much as I am not a fan of the last person mentioned, can we please not make statments about people who are no longer here to defend themselves
[10:41] jeremie Hotaling is Offline
[10:42] Anna Toussaint: I repeat, all in favor, say "aye"
[10:42] Beathan Vale: aye
[10:42] Shep Titian: I have to go nay
[10:42] Rosie Gray: bye Shep
[10:42] Anna Toussaint: all opposed say "nay"
[10:42] Tor Karlsvalt: hi Delia
[10:42] Rosie Gray: nay
[10:43] Tor Karlsvalt: bye shep
[10:43] Shep Titian: Sorry Beatjhan
[10:43] lynsey Fleury is Offline
[10:43] Tor Karlsvalt: tc
[10:43] Beathan Vale: I don't think Shelp was leaving -- just oppossing
[10:43] Beathan Vale: opposing
[10:43] Shep Titian: Bye Tor
[10:43] Anna Toussaint: shep has voted "nay"?
[10:43] Rosie Gray: hi Delia )
[10:43] Shep Titian: yes
[10:43] Pip Torok: yes Anna
[10:43] Anna Toussaint: kk .. the chair votes "nay", the motion fails
[10:43] Rosie Gray: oh I thought you were also saying you had to go
[10:44] Anna Toussaint: we are under a 7-day vote, so the final vote awaits Pat
[10:44] Beathan Vale: I appreciate the note that this was a tough vote for you Shep
[10:44] Shep Titian: Sorry .. it's my welsh accent
[10:44] Beathan Vale: lol
[10:44] Rosie Gray: hehehe
[10:44] Tor Karlsvalt: haha
[10:44] Bells Semyorka:
[10:44] Anna Toussaint: such a pretty accent
[10:45] Tor Karlsvalt: actually in Chicago we use the word go to mean say too
[10:45] Shep Titian: lol we do say some strange things and expect everyone to understand us
[10:45] Anna Toussaint: now on to proposal 4 of beathans\
[10:45] Beathan Vale: that one is a bit still unbaked I think
[10:45] Beathan Vale: I withdraw it
[10:45] Anna Toussaint: ok, it is withdrawn
[10:46] Beathan Vale: I want to consult with more citizens to see how wide the perceotion that we need a Constitutional overhaul is
[10:46] Shep Titian: Why .. that one looks interesting
[10:46] Anna Toussaint: the stipend proposal has been withdrawn previously
[10:46] Anna Toussaint: Is there an executive report?
[10:46] Beathan Vale: Yes, and it was a campaign promise, but I want to think it through and flesh it out first
[10:46] Tor Karlsvalt: um
[10:47] Tor Karlsvalt: no
[10:47] Beathan Vale: maybe focussing on the SC will be enough this term
[10:47] Anna Toussaint: oh, Beathan ... we are all half baked
[10:47] Beathan Vale: bite size pieces
[10:47] Tor Karlsvalt: haha
[10:47] Rosie Gray: lol
[10:47] Anna Toussaint: or at leasy I am ...
[10:47] Anna Toussaint: least
[10:47] Tor Karlsvalt wonders when the psych report on SL will be out
[10:47] Anna Toussaint: Tor ...
[10:48] Anna Toussaint: you might direct Trebor to the minutes
[10:48] Tor Karlsvalt: yes I will
[10:48] Sudane Erato: As the Cheshire Cat said to Alice, "We're all crazy here"
[10:48] Rosie Gray:
[10:48] Tor Karlsvalt:
[10:48] Anna Toussaint: where we have passed a bill compelling Trebor to report to us on the builds initiative
[10:49] Tor Karlsvalt: ok, I will
[10:49] Anna Toussaint: all right ... General Annouincements anyone?
[10:49] Rosie Gray raises hand
[10:49] Tor Karlsvalt: i will email that section to him once it is posted.
[10:49] Anna Toussaint: yes?
[10:49] Rosie Gray: just to advise the status of the commission I'm working on
[10:49] Tori Landau is Offline
[10:49] Rosie Gray: to gauge citizens' desires aroudn a new sim
[10:50] Rosie Gray: I'm currently drafting a survey that will be posted on the website, and through the kiosks inworld
[10:50] sabreman Carter is Offline
[10:50] Anna Toussaint: will you be calling for participation in the commission?
[10:51] Rosie Gray: I'm waiting for some feedback on the draft first, and am wondering if anyone else would like to look at the draft first
[10:51] Rosie Gray: yes that's what I'm doing now Anna
[10:51] Rosie Gray: this survey is just a preliminary thing really
[10:51] Anna Toussaint:
[10:51] Rosie Gray: to get people thinking about the questions
[10:51] Anna Toussaint: I will help with the questions
[10:52] Anna Toussaint: I have lots of them ... what is life all about?
[10:52] Rosie Gray: thanks... and if anyone else here would like to have a look please let me know
[10:52] Rosie Gray: lol
[10:52] Rosie Gray: noooo
[10:52] Tor Karlsvalt: haha
[10:52] Anna Toussaint: ok .. next meeting date
[10:52] Pip Torok: my poems might help you on that one, Anna!
[10:52] Rosie Gray: but I want you to know that I don't intend for the survey to be the end-all
[10:52] Anna Toussaint:
[10:52] Anna Toussaint: thank you, rosie
[10:53] Anna Toussaint: I suggest the next meeting be 2 weeks from today at the same time and place
[10:53] Anna Toussaint: Beathan, I note that you don't have your sat morning commitment on that date
[10:53] Shep Titian: Yes good for me
[10:53] Beathan Vale: Correct
[10:53] Anna Toussaint:
[10:53] Anna Toussaint: Rosie?
[10:53] Anna Toussaint: that would make it the 21st
[10:53] Rosie Gray: yes fine for me
[10:54] Anna Toussaint: ok, the next meeting will be held January 21 at 9 am right here
[10:54] Anna Toussaint: motion to adjourn?
[10:54] Beathan Vale: so moved
[10:54] Anna Toussaint: come on, someone second ...
[10:54] Rosie Gray: second!
[10:54] Anna Toussaint: so orderd
[10:55] Anna Toussaint: we are adjourned
[10:55] Tor Karlsvalt: ♫~~♫~~APPLAUSE~~♫~~♫