Transcript Citizenship Transparency Commission 20 Jan 2012

Proposals for legislation and discussions of these

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Patroklus Murakami
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Transcript Citizenship Transparency Commission 20 Jan 2012

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Patroklus Murakami: so please touch the recorder on the desk to indicate consent to be recorded or... keep silent! :)
Trebor Warcliffe has indicated consent to be recorded.
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Callipygian Christensen: before we begin, for anyone a fan of classic R&B, jazz, blues..Etta James passed away this morning. I'll be doing a clebration set of her music tonight at 7 - IM me if you want info
Tanoujin Milestone has indicated consent to be recorded.
Callipygian Christensen has indicated consent to be recorded.
Sudane Erato: oh my
Lilith Ivory has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: lovely idea calli. such a shame to hear she had passed
Patroklus Murakami: ok. let's get started
Patroklus Murakami: i thought i might say a few words about why we are here and then kick off the discussion if that's okay?
Patroklus Murakami: the last election brought to light the issue that defining citizenship in the CDS has become very complex
Patroklus Murakami: (it used to be very simple years ago when i arrived here)
Patroklus Murakami: we now have landowners, ppl in groups, partners of land owners and sponsors of individual locations
Patroklus Murakami: it has become very difficult (some might say impossible) to really decide who is/is nto entitled to vote in elections
Patroklus Murakami: and it certainly can't be done simply, quickly and transparently
Patroklus Murakami: so this commisison has been set up to get input on how we might change things
Patroklus Murakami: now, any preliminary remarks that ppl are really itching to get off their chests?
Patroklus Murakami: over to you!
Sudane Erato: hehe
Callipygian Christensen raises herhand
Patroklus Murakami: go ahead calli
Callipygian Christensen: Since a commission did extensive work on this just over a year ago, I'd like to suggest that people read the draft we created then - it gives some of the ratioanle for what was put forward, and gathers the input of a lot of citizens who participated
Callipygian Christensen: I am not suggesting not changing, just having some background of what and why :)
Trebor Warcliffe: raises hand
Patroklus Murakami: trebor (assumign calli has finished)
Trebor Warcliffe: I don't necessarily see that we need to "change" things, instead I feel we just need to make improvements on what we have.
Callipygian Christensen: yes..just looking for an URL
Shep Titian has indicated consent to be recorded.
Trebor Warcliffe: And I agree with Calli it would be wise of us to study what has already been discussed on this matter to see if there are new answers to old questions.
Patroklus Murakami: any other burning comments before we move on? i have some thoughts on how we might structure the discussion (with your permission of course)
Delia Lake: good afternoon :)
Trebor Warcliffe: Hi Delia
Lilith Ivory: Hi Delia
Patroklus Murakami: okay, welll here goes
Patroklus Murakami: i agree we need to consider what has been done before. we don't want to reinvent the wheel. but i have read all the transcripts from previous citizenship commissions
Trebor Warcliffe: Very good
Patroklus Murakami: they were primarliy looking at ways to extend the franchise, to find new ways for ppl to become cDS citizens
Patroklus Murakami: they did not spend a lot of time thinking about the practicalities of how to implement the systems and how they would be administered (in my view)
Sudane Erato: in my view as well
Patroklus Murakami: so, i suggest we begin by looking at principles - who is currently entited to citizenship and by what means?
Callipygian Christensen nods - and as a result some of the law is not being implemented correctly because it isn't possible
Patroklus Murakami: do we agree with the rationale?
Trebor Warcliffe: Good starting point Pat.
Patroklus Murakami: do we think it ought to change/be modified?
Lilith Ivory nods
Sudane Erato: i agree completely
Pip Torok: agree .. can we define exactly when we become citizens using means we can handle?
Tanoujin Milestone: I agree, Pat
Patroklus Murakami: and then we should think about how to implement what we think iis right
Patroklus Murakami: and make sure we have really thought it through this time
Patroklus Murakami: yes pip, we should cover that to
Patroklus Murakami: too
Patroklus Murakami: so let's begin with how ppl currently derive their citizenship
Patroklus Murakami: i've asked sudane to look up some stats for the numbers in the different groups. we might be able to get into that later
Patroklus Murakami: first of all, people own individual plots and pay tier on those plots. do we have any thoughts about that class of citizenship?
Trebor Warcliffe: Thats cut and dry
Tanoujin Milestone: preferable :)
Sudane Erato: Cut and dry except for defining what it is exactly defines the citizenship
Pip Torok: do we have records on w hen ppl start paying tier?
Sudane Erato: and exactly when that citizenship begins and ends
Lilith Ivory: maybe Sudane or Treb could give a short overview how the new hippo system works and where known problems are
Sudane Erato: Treb?
Trebor Warcliffe: Sure I can if you like
Patroklus Murakami that's a great idea lilith. /me looks at trebor
Trebor Warcliffe: Sudane has been setting up all the Hippo boxes.
Sudane Erato: btw...
Sudane Erato: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... utput=html
Trebor Warcliffe: If a parcel is owned by the CDS (Rudeen)
Trebor Warcliffe: An individual goes to the parcel, purchases the parcel in the About Land Tab and than pays the tier to the Hippo box.
Trebor Warcliffe: It is my understanding that citizenship starts when they pay the tier.
Trebor Warcliffe: NOW
Trebor Warcliffe: If a citizen sells a private parcel
Trebor Warcliffe: meaning they own the parcel and not Rudeen
Trebor Warcliffe: The circumstances are slightly different.
Trebor Warcliffe: Ill use Pip and me as an example
Trebor Warcliffe: If Im purchasing a parcel from Pip
Trebor Warcliffe: Pip sells me the parcel via the About Land tab for whatever price we agree upon (more to this in a little bit)
Trebor Warcliffe: Crap Im having a brain fart
Trebor Warcliffe: Sudane does Pip "abandon" the hippo box
Sudane Erato: thats one option
Trebor Warcliffe: or is that when we step in and remove him from the box
Trebor Warcliffe: So that is an option
Sudane Erato: but we assume most people won't do that
Sudane Erato: yes
Sudane Erato: we would remove him... with a refund if appropriate
Trebor Warcliffe: Also if they do that without nnotifying us they will get no refund
Trebor Warcliffe: ok
Trebor Warcliffe: So we'll assume that the Hippo Managers are going to step in and remove Pip from the Hippo box.
Lilith Ivory: imo when you buy that parcel from Pip the hippo team gets a note, jumps to the hippo website and changes the settings so pip shows as the new owner
Patroklus Murakami: so, there are some technical issues here about how we implement hippo (or another rental system)
Trebor Warcliffe: At that time I would pay my first 30 days of tier to the Hippo box.
Patroklus Murakami: but what principle should apply to when someone becomes a citizen by buying land in the cds?
Trebor Warcliffe: When they pay the tier
Trebor Warcliffe: With Hippo
Trebor Warcliffe: we're going to give them 24 hours to pay their tier
Trebor Warcliffe: Reason being
Patroklus Murakami: is that dependent on someone else doing something i.e. is it possible the someon will miss the deadline to become a citzen because the hippo managers were too busy?
Trebor Warcliffe: This will allow oen of the four Hippo Managers to boot the old person and install the new person.
Sudane Erato: Pat, yes
Trebor Warcliffe: Highly unlikely
Trebor Warcliffe: But yes it is a possibility
Sudane Erato: well... maybe not unlikely
Trebor Warcliffe: We have four Hippo managers currently
Trebor Warcliffe: And Im sure as we grow we will probably need a few more
Patroklus Murakami: i can see that being a potential source of future conflict!
Sudane Erato: yep
Trebor Warcliffe: Than your alternative
Trebor Warcliffe: Is to make them a citizen at the time of purchase
Shep Titian: I see no harm in that
Trebor Warcliffe: and if they havent paid tier within 24 hours of the box being set up they get booted and lose the property
Patroklus Murakami: i would not want to set up a situation where we get "you dragged your heels and now i can't vote, you did it deliberately"
Sudane Erato: raise hand
Patroklus Murakami: draaahma!
Trebor Warcliffe: But the OFFICIAL "time of citizenship" would be the time of puirchase
Patroklus Murakami: yes sudane?
Trebor Warcliffe: whaich we do have records of
Trebor Warcliffe: From our Land Scanner
Sudane Erato: the key tech fact in the dilemma between defining citizenship
Sudane Erato: between ownership
Sudane Erato: and tier payment
Callipygian Christensen: I think no existing rental system will address that because no system is designed with the CDS 'citizen-vote' requirement..the price of being uniaue
Pip Torok: (for me thats the whole point, that the landscanner shows this)
Sudane Erato: is that we have, with Hippo, and list of owners (tier payers)
Sudane Erato: and their status
Sudane Erato: we have no such list available of parcel owners
Sudane Erato: such a list is conceivable, with custom software
Sudane Erato: but we do not now have it
Sudane Erato: the ONLY list we have is in Hippo
Callipygian Christensen raises her hand
Sudane Erato: and Hippo has NO IDEA who owns what
Sudane Erato: ONLY who pays what
Sudane Erato: done
Patroklus Murakami: can we not just insist that people declare themselves as teh owner in 'about land' instead of having a group own the plot?
Sudane Erato: Pat, that does not yield a list
Patroklus Murakami: (like we used to!)
Sudane Erato: but it is a good idea
Pip Torok strongly agrees with pat
Trebor Warcliffe: That would be a possibility Pat yes but like Sudane said how do you make a list from that?
Patroklus Murakami: i guess it would have to be done manually...
Sudane Erato: yep
Patroklus Murakami: unless you could automate the process with a bot/script?
Tanoujin Milestone: a nightmare
Sudane Erato: especially at the voting deadline
Trebor Warcliffe: Granted i do have a spreadsheet entitled CDS Master Parcel Citizen List
Patroklus Murakami: calli, you wanted to come in
Trebor Warcliffe: that I do my best to keep track of all owners in teh CDS
Trebor Warcliffe: The biggest advantage for us is that the Land Scanner notifies us when ANY land changes hands, even from Group to an individual member of the group.
Trebor Warcliffe: Since I get those emails I no longer have to travel each sim and look at each parcel to find out who the owner is.
Callipygian Christensen: the question of when citizenship begins, purchase vs tier payment isactually simple to address
Callipygian Christensen: Much of our 'confusion' comes from unclear language
Trebor Warcliffe: true
Pip Torok: can the Landscanner output m/c-readable records that cusom software might pick-up?
Trebor Warcliffe: And honestly all this effort is for ONE day out of 365 days. The deadline for voting and standing for office eligibility.
Callipygian Christensen: If it says clearly 'Your full rights as a citizen become active when you pay your tier'..and perhaps something sayig You must contact the Treasurer within 24 hours to arrange tier payment'
Trebor Warcliffe: I dont know Pip
Patroklus Murakami: the problem is when ppl get told something different
Patroklus Murakami: someone might get their wires crossed and not give the right info to new ppl
Trebor Warcliffe: Thats why its important the rules are clear and easy to undersstand
Patroklus Murakami: then we get complaints
Callipygian Christensen: Between the technology and a notecard from the purchaser, much f the 'gap that could be a problem disappears, and there would be a record of the purchasers attempt to arrange tier
Patroklus Murakami: so, to summarise so far....
Patroklus Murakami: there's a choice to be made about when citzenship starts - is it from purchase or first paying tier
Patroklus Murakami: and whichever choice is made it needs to be clear and easy for newcomers to understand
Trebor Warcliffe: or a combinationof both
Patroklus Murakami: and preferably leads to an automated update of our citzen list
Patroklus Murakami: is there an obvious right answer here?
Pip Torok: imo fusing purchase and 1st tier wd make sense
Sudane Erato: well, the hippo list is the obvious "automated list"
Patroklus Murakami: nice idea pip
Sudane Erato: yes, but we have no automated way to do that
Trebor Warcliffe: I agree with Pip. We dont want someone purchasing a parcel, becoming a citizen, and not paying tier.
Pip Torok: can hippo out formatted records to order?
Pip Torok: output
Sudane Erato: i am still exploring formated Hippo output
Sudane Erato: in itself, it puts out CSV
Trebor Warcliffe: Sudane quick question
Trebor Warcliffe: If we do away with group membership in regards to parcel ownership
Trebor Warcliffe: And
Trebor Warcliffe: Hippo allows one parcel owner and one partner
Trebor Warcliffe: Cant we insist that the owner or owners in the About Land tab must be the same ones listed in Hippo?
Sudane Erato: not possible
Sudane Erato: parcel can have only 1 owner
Trebor Warcliffe: Than wouldnt we have a "proper" list
Trebor Warcliffe: About Land parcel?
Sudane Erato: yes
Trebor Warcliffe: Ok
Trebor Warcliffe: Than
Lilith Ivory: even if someone buys for group?
Trebor Warcliffe: And this is a question for all
Patroklus Murakami: let's keep that thought in mind for when we move on to discuss group land ownership and partners
Sudane Erato: that one owner can be one person OR one group
Patroklus Murakami: we're still at one person owning a plot (or plots) just now
Patroklus Murakami: (and i thought this would be the easy bit!)
Sudane Erato: hehe
Trebor Warcliffe: Sorry Pat trying to stay on topic but a lot of these issues kind of intertwine with each otehr lol
Patroklus Murakami: folks, i'm conscious of time so i have proposal
Trebor Warcliffe: Set us back on track
Patroklus Murakami: i understand trebor
Callipygian Christensen: Why are we averse to having people who want to be active citizens in our community actually *do* something to estabish that desire - by contacting Sudane - who could then be sure they have the *accurate* info
Delia Lake is glad we're doing this waaaayyyy before the next election though
Sudane Erato: :)
Trebor Warcliffe: :))
Delia Lake has indicated consent to be recorded.
Trebor Warcliffe: To answer Calli's question, can I?
Patroklus Murakami: there seems to be no clear answer here so i suggest we park the issue for now. we know that the timing is an issue i.e. when you become a citizen, and some of the issues regarding automation. let's move on to discuss group land ownership and explore this question on the forums
Patroklus Murakami: go ahead trebor
Trebor Warcliffe: hold on reading yours
Trebor Warcliffe: ok
Trebor Warcliffe: I agree with Calli in reference to an individual who wants to participate in our politics should make an effort, even a small effort, to allow that to happen.
Trebor Warcliffe: Done
Sudane Erato: raise hand
Patroklus Murakami: yes sudane?
Sudane Erato: i think that Calli's concept deserves thought... but I pray that it not be me... (or at least ONLY me) :)
Trebor Warcliffe: Currently it would be the 4 Horseman, I mean Hippo Managers
Trebor Warcliffe: hehehe
Trebor Warcliffe: We will have a mailbox set up with a timestamp
Trebor Warcliffe: That can be used for thsi exact purpose
Patroklus Murakami: i agree! but i think we need ppl to know what they have to do. it needs to be transparent. and we need a way to prove/disprove claims of notification. i think the idea of having a record in the mailbox is brllliant!
Patroklus Murakami: well done to those who are working on it, it's really helpful
Trebor Warcliffe: Everyone thank Calli please
Sudane Erato: bravo Calli :)
Patroklus Murakami: can we move on now to discuss group citizenship? (thx calli!)
Lilith Ivory applauds
Shep Titian: Thx Calli
Delia Lake: /ty Calli
Trebor Warcliffe: Yes let's discuss group citizenship
Trebor Warcliffe: Im against it
Trebor Warcliffe: LOL
Sudane Erato: :)
Patroklus Murakami: can i give a quick mini-history lesson?
Callipygian Christensen: quite welcome
Trebor Warcliffe: yes Pat please do
Patroklus Murakami: as i am partly responsible for the group land citizenship law
Patroklus Murakami ducks the bricks beign thrown
Patroklus Murakami: we had the best of intentions :)
Trebor Warcliffe: /Trebor looking for his slap on the back of the head gesture
Patroklus Murakami: it came about at a time when an interesting group of ppl - esperanto speakers - wanted to join the cds en masse
Patroklus Murakami: they had suffered griefing on teh mainland and cds was a safe haven for them
Patroklus Murakami: but there weren't enought individual plots for everybody
Patroklus Murakami: some bought them,some didnt
Patroklus Murakami: but they wanted to build an esperanto centre and we talked about whether a group could own land in common and all derive citizenship in that way
Patroklus Murakami: hence the group land citizenship act
Patroklus Murakami: we thought it might bring in charities, religious groups, etc
Pip Torok notes that pat says "_thought_"
Patroklus Murakami: looking at the link sudane circulate tho, we only seem to have one or two group land citizens right now
Patroklus Murakami: oh yes pip, we were totally wrong!
Patroklus Murakami: so. thoughts on group citizenship?
Sudane Erato: raise hand
Patroklus Murakami: go ahead sudane
Bells Semyorka: Can we ask that the RA vote that it be gone?
Trebor Warcliffe: rasies hand with a couple of questions after sudane
Patroklus Murakami: sure bells :)
Sudane Erato: Pat, you neglect to mention that the other motivation for this was the desire of people to have their partners as citizens
Sudane Erato: and
Sudane Erato: that has been a more frequently used function
Pip Torok: my feeling is that we do not have groupcitizenship at all .. given its complicated relationship with Hippo
Sudane Erato: done
Pip Torok: done
Callipygian Christensen: to combine prim totals is also a benefit of group owend land
Patroklus Murakami: that's correct sudane. thx for the additonal info
Sudane Erato: well, we could have "partner" citizenship w Hippo
Patroklus Murakami: i was thinking of coming to partners next for the discussoin. but you're right about the group land law
Patroklus Murakami: trebor?
Sudane Erato: C alli, combining prim totals does not require group owned land
Callipygian Christensen: Sudane - I think the issue with that is that the land owner then has the power to end someones citizenship?
Trebor Warcliffe: TU Sudane thats what I was trying to type but it wasnt coming out right
Sudane Erato: yes, with Hippo, that WOULD be a problem
Trebor Warcliffe: Ok Pat quick question
Callipygian Christensen: (Sudane, doesnt require it, but allows more than one indivdual to contribute prims to a total)
Trebor Warcliffe: Were there financial requirements with this "Group Owned Land" and citizenship?
Patroklus Murakami: all the group members have to contribute towards teh tier
Patroklus Murakami: i forget teh minimum, something like L$250
Sudane Erato: yes
Sudane Erato: originally 100
Trebor Warcliffe: But there is no way for "us" to know if they are all paying it or if one person pays it for all of them correft
Patroklus Murakami: and you can't have an infinite number of ppl in teh group
Trebor Warcliffe: correct
Sudane Erato: and raised by Tor to 250
Patroklus Murakami: it depends on teh size of teh plot
Sudane Erato: yes
Callipygian Christensen: 256 sq m per citizen minimum, to allow an owner and partner to qualify with a 512
Trebor Warcliffe: But there is no way for "us" to know if they are all paying it or if one person pays it for all of them correft
Patroklus Murakami: yes trebor, and the worry was always that a group owner could have a number of sock puppet alts who s/he pays for and then get more votes
Trebor Warcliffe: Ok than here is my suggestion

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Re: Transcript Citizenship Transparency Commission 20 Jan 20

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Pip Torok: all hese problems are obviated if we have no group citizenship .....
Trebor Warcliffe: We do away with Group owned land
Sudane Erato: well, under the old system... there WAS a way
Trebor Warcliffe: Corect Pip
Bells Semyorka: agree
Trebor Warcliffe: Hippo allows us
Trebor Warcliffe: to ahve an owner and a partner
Trebor Warcliffe: NOW
Trebor Warcliffe: teh question is should an additional L$250 be added to the tier of a parcel with an owner and a partner?
Sudane Erato: yes, but note Calli's point
Trebor Warcliffe: let me look
Sudane Erato: with the Hippo system, the owner can toss the partner
Trebor Warcliffe: yes but the partner cant toss the owner
Sudane Erato: exactly
Sudane Erato: uneven citizenship
Trebor Warcliffe: We can have it where
Callipygian Christensen: Trebor, adding tier without prims attached is actually discriminating against one set of citizens
Trebor Warcliffe: if the partner gets dropped
Patroklus Murakami: can we come on to partner issues in a minute? i just want to play devils advocate on group citizenship for a while :)
Callipygian Christensen: or is 'selling' citizenship..taake your pick :)
Bells Semyorka thinks we should do away with any group/partner scenario and make it so you must own land a physical property to be a citizen
Trebor Warcliffe: they can come to the CDS, become a citizen on their own
Trebor Warcliffe: and they wouldnt lose their citizenship
Patroklus Murakami: i hear a consensus emerging on abolishing group citizenship but i just want to challenge you on it gently for a moment
Trebor Warcliffe: ok
Patroklus Murakami: what if a religious group, say tibetan buddhists, want to establish a small temple in the cds (in line with our theme)
Patroklus Murakami: they can't all afford to get indiviudla plots
Patroklus Murakami: but they want to make the cds a base for their practice and be active in the community
Patroklus Murakami: do we say to them "only one of you gets to be a citizen, tough"?
Pip Torok: then from OUR POV they are individual citizens but from THEIR POV they are memebers of that one sect
Tanoujin Milestone: I have a question
Patroklus Murakami: go ahead tan
Trebor Warcliffe: raises hand after Tan
Tanoujin Milestone: if we do away with group ownership, is there a good workaround to share prims on different parcels?
Trebor Warcliffe: Sudane can answer that one
Sudane Erato: yes... parcels owned by one person, and set to group, share prims
Sudane Erato: and allow anyone in that group
Sudane Erato: to rez stuff
Lilith Ivory: yea but in Tans case it?s two parcels owned by tow persons
Tanoujin Milestone: great, away with group ownership!
Lilith Ivory: two
Sudane Erato: the group need have nothing to do with citizenship
Shep Titian: I own two parcels not set to group and the primsstill share
Trebor Warcliffe: Yes Shep because you are the owner of both parcels
Sudane Erato: that's right... two separate owners cannot share prims
Trebor Warcliffe: Sudane
Trebor Warcliffe: If Lil and Tan
Bells Semyorka: there has to be a common group
Lilith Ivory: so Tan and me will depend on deeding the land to our group right?
Trebor Warcliffe: form a group (LilandTan)
Sudane Erato: Lil, yes
Trebor Warcliffe: than wouldnt they be able to share than?
Sudane Erato: the land would have to be deeded to that group
Trebor Warcliffe: Thats only because the land is "owned" by two different people?
Patroklus Murakami: does that answer your question tan?
Lilith Ivory: ok and I hope there won?t be laws against doing this :)
Tanoujin Milestone: yes, so far
Tanoujin Milestone: thanks
Trebor Warcliffe: raises hand
Lilith Ivory: we can still stay as tow owners in the hippo system
Sudane Erato: yes
Sudane Erato: important FACT
Tanoujin Milestone: this would not cause administrative trouble?
Sudane Erato: there is NO connection between parcels ownership and the Hippo system
Patroklus Murakami: ok. anyone want to answer by hypothetical point about the poor tibetan buddhists who you guys are going to be so unwelcoming to? :)
Trebor Warcliffe: yes i do Pat
Patroklus Murakami: *my
Patroklus Murakami: go ahead t
Trebor Warcliffe: Ok
Pip Torok: i did pat , some time back . let me get it ...
Trebor Warcliffe: Currently we have the "sponsorship program" which allows an individual to sponsor a piece of public land for L$250 a month.
Trebor Warcliffe: My answer to your situation
Sudane Erato: note also, if you Deed To Group, you toss out all possibility of citizenship based on land Ownership
Pip Torok: Pip Torok: then from OUR POV they are individual citizens but from THEIR POV they are memebers of that one sect
Patroklus Murakami: thx pip, trebor
Trebor Warcliffe: Is that for each additional individual you increase the tier by L$250 and a list is maintained of the members.
Trebor Warcliffe: So a group with one owner and 25 members
Trebor Warcliffe: All wanting to participate
Bells Semyorka: so each person of the group would want a vote because they come in as a group. I see them as a faction getting one vote since they own one land parcel. If people from this group want more of a voice and more interaction within CDS they can look into obtaining more land within CDS.
Delia Lake raises her hand
Sudane Erato: no please :(((
Trebor Warcliffe: Can by paying the tier for the parcel plus the L$250 for each individual member
Sudane Erato: that would get IMpossible
Pip Torok agrees strongly with Sudane
Trebor Warcliffe: DONE for now
Sudane Erato: :)
Trebor Warcliffe: Which part is impossible Sudane?
Patroklus Murakami: remember folks, we need to keep things simple and transparent. the major problem with group ownership is the lack of transparency and additional complication it brings
Sudane Erato: yes
Patroklus Murakami: delia?
Pip Torok: treb .. have you two hours??? :(
Sudane Erato: hehe
Trebor Warcliffe: After I cook dinner for the misses hehehe
Delia Lake: so are we saying in effect that citizenship in the CDS is $250 tier /mo, pay for play. and that can be set up on hippo when someone buys land or if someone sponsors ?
Callipygian Christensen: While it may seem unwelcoming to the tibetan monks, let's also keep in mind that what is permitted for one group must be permitted for all groups, so Sally's Burlesque queens are entitled to demand the same treatment imo
Patroklus Murakami: :)
Patroklus Murakami: good point delia. we must remember that we need to pay tier after all
Shep Titian: I vote for Sally :D
Delia Lake: and that for our group of buddhists, 1 can buy a plot, set it to group so all can share prims but if the rest of the group wants to vote they have to sponsor a fountain or such?
Sudane Erato: Delia, taking that approach would be a true pain to administer
Patroklus Murakami: we are not just 'selling citizehship'
Trebor Warcliffe: true Pat
Bells Semyorka nods and agrees with Calli, no matter what the purpose of the group is CDS citizenship is not a prize and it's not something we should sell.
Trebor Warcliffe: After listening to others thoughts I have to agree
Delia Lake asked a question not made a proposal
Trebor Warcliffe: A group of monks can all live here amongst us
Trebor Warcliffe: but if they want to be a citizen they must own a parcel themselves
Patroklus Murakami: let's come on to sponsorship as well in a bit
Patroklus Murakami: i'd like to summarise if i may
Trebor Warcliffe: OR no more than one partner per parcel
Pip Torok: yes ... from their pov they are a group .. from ours individual citizens each owners of plots
Shep Titian: I go with one
Patroklus Murakami: there seems to be a consensus to abolish the group citizenship law due to its complexity and lack of transparency
Trebor Warcliffe: yes
Pip Torok: yes
Shep Titian: Otherwise come election time .........
Bells Semyorka: lots of finger pointing
Patroklus Murakami: shall we move on to discuss partners? i see we have quite a few of those in the link that sudane gave us
Patroklus Murakami: and this was the case which the original group land law was intended to cover
Patroklus Murakami: should we allow ppl to be citizens by being someone's partner?
Patroklus Murakami: does hippo make this easier to administer?
Patroklus Murakami: over to you for thoughts
Callipygian Christensen has a comment here
Sudane Erato: The problem with Hippo and partners is the one that Calli points out
Patroklus Murakami: calli?
Sudane Erato: that the "owner" can toss the partner
Pip Torok: I say no for one reason .. imo partnership is a PERSONAL matter and does not involve CDS or any community
Callipygian Christensen: Currently, although the 'intent' of the partner area of the law was that the partner would pay 250L and the owner pay the balance, that is not what happens..it can't with the technology..
Bells Semyorka: me thinks the same rules should apply. at what point are we allowing partner or partners. How about people who are in poli partnerships? it can get confusing. I say NO
Patroklus Murakami: i have worried about that sudane. seems a shame to lose your citizenship in the divorce settlement
Shep Titian: But Pip if they lived here but only wanted one home ?
Callipygian Christensen: so in efffect anyone becoming a citizen by that method is currently paying a 'penalty' of extra tier without prims to be a citizen
Pip Torok: then one moves in as a nonpaying guest, Shep
Sudane Erato: i confirm Calli's comment
Lilith Ivory: also I might want to add a "partner" who is able to pay my tier and don?t want this person automatically become a citizen
Patroklus Murakami: i don't follow your last comment calli
Shep Titian: Hmmmmm
Callipygian Christensen: Pat ..if you and i were partners..and that would need to be 435th Life or something :). you would pay the full tier on our parcel and i would have to pay an extra 250L
Patroklus Murakami: lol
Sudane Erato: hehe
Callipygian Christensen: so it isnt actually a split of the tier, it's an additional payment
Patroklus Murakami: so, the payment box doesn't take into account that the tier is shared?
Callipygian Christensen: it ca't
Callipygian Christensen: can't
Trebor Warcliffe: An additional payment that cant be verified either for tha tmatter
Patroklus Murakami: this affects quite a few ppl so i think we need to tread carefully here
Sudane Erato: the arrangement that Calli describes was devised by me as the best approximation of the law's intent
Pip Torok: if its a PERSONAL thing the tier can be shared personally and CDS is not involved
Sudane Erato: its a function of the OLD system
Sudane Erato: and will not continue with the Hippo system
Trebor Warcliffe: raises hand
Callipygian Christensen nods and clarifies - that wasnt a compalint against how Sudane has to do things - just anexample of how the law as it sits isnt possible to follow anyway
Patroklus Murakami: so how does the hippo system work?
Trebor Warcliffe: In what aspect Pat?
Sudane Erato: an owner is able to designate a partner
Sudane Erato: and is also able to remove that partner
Patroklus Murakami: how does it account for partners? and how do they pay?
Sudane Erato: either person can pay tier
Patroklus Murakami: but it sounds very one-sided. the owner has all the power
Sudane Erato: exactly
Pip Torok: and they can choose only ONE partner (at a time)?
Patroklus Murakami: if we are tying citizenship to this
Sudane Erato: only 1
Patroklus Murakami: ok. let's assume we go with hippo because it's easier to administer
Patroklus Murakami: how do we address the fairness issues?
Sudane Erato: we get rid of the partner option
Trebor Warcliffe: As far as partners go?
Patroklus Murakami: i mean with the partner option!
Callipygian Christensen: or leave the partner option but make it clear it does not confer citizenship
Trebor Warcliffe: I think we can work with the partner scenario myself.
Patroklus Murakami: say i own the parcel and ditch calli. how do we ensure she retains citizenship (if she wants it?)
Tanoujin Milestone: Good point, Calli
Callipygian Christensen: allow the payment functions as a convenience, but that's all it is
Pip Torok: well imo the "fairness" resides in the fact that being _personal_ this at bottom shd have no relevance with CDS that is a "public thing"
Trebor Warcliffe: She would have to than purchase her own parcel
Trebor Warcliffe: say within a certain time period
Lilith Ivory: I agree Calli!
Trebor Warcliffe: to retain her citizenship without having to reestablish herself through the 28 day rule
Delia Lake: and that ditched partner would be grandfathered for voting purposes?
Bells Semyorka nods, owner of parcel= citizenship: partner= CDS acknowledging the partnership but not giving citizenship.
Sudane Erato: *sigh*
Trebor Warcliffe: yes Sudane definite *sigh* this is a rough one
Callipygian Christensen: Sudane?
Patroklus Murakami: i hear a few ppl saying that we should abolish this way of granting citizenship but what about those who are currently citizens in this way? what do we do about them?
Patroklus Murakami: it's about ten ppl
Sudane Erato: KISS
Pip Torok: ]:-))
Bells Semyorka: yes Kip it simple silly
Trebor Warcliffe: I've learned KISS a few times here LOL
Bells Semyorka: lol
Sudane Erato: ten people on that list Pat... many of them are gone by now
Shep Titian: If there is no citizenship for the partner then CDS shou;ld butt out frankly
Trebor Warcliffe: Correct Shep if a partner is not an official citizen with the power to vote than the CDS could care less about the partner
Patroklus Murakami: so, we are radical individualists where govnt does not recognise or interfere in ppls private lives by recognising/not recognising marriage or partnerships?
Sudane Erato: :)
Tanoujin Milestone: unless we get a registration office. Volunteers?
Sudane Erato: i love radical individualism :)
Trebor Warcliffe: I dont think SL has marriage licenses LOL
Lilith Ivory giggles
Bells Semyorka: I have two of them T
Bells Semyorka: lol
Sudane Erato: hehe
Tanoujin Milestone: :)
Pip Torok: I never thought they would have, either! :)
Patroklus Murakami: i thought it did trebor - there used be a box for 'partner' on the profile
Patroklus Murakami: and you paid L$250 to register
Bells Semyorka: BRB smoke break
Sudane Erato: oh!
Pip Torok: yes .. but thats at LL's discretion ...
Sudane Erato: thats right... seems no longer there
Shep Titian: ok Bells
Sudane Erato: it is there
Trebor Warcliffe: So it sounds like were leanign towards the one parcel one citizen rule
Callipygian Christensen: Buying a parcel in CDS gives you the right to become a citizen. Those rights become active when you notify the land managers of your purchase by dropping a notecard in the mailbox located *here*, and paying your tier within 24 hours of activation of your Hippo rental box. and pay your tier.
Callipygian Christensen: ack
Patroklus Murakami: so, to summarise, i think i hear a consensus to abolish citizensip through partnership?
Callipygian Christensen: sorry..that was meant to go into a notecard..apologies
Trebor Warcliffe: I think that would make a good notecard Calli
Pip Torok: you hear it from me, Pat
Patroklus Murakami: presumably with a time for ppl to buy their own plots if they want to vote in elections
Patroklus Murakami: transition arrangements
Patroklus Murakami: can we move on to sponsor citizens?
Pip Torok: dont forget that behind the scenes a citizen and partner can agree a joint list of ranked candidates ...
Patroklus Murakami: this was an innovation following the last citizenship commission
Shep Titian: We hold some prim plots .. could we break one up to allow a partner to buy if they want to be a citizen without a full parcel?
Patroklus Murakami: i think i can hear sudane shuddering at the prospect of subdividing plots!
Sudane Erato: :)
Trebor Warcliffe: What defines a "full parcel" though? We have parcels in NFS smaller than 256sqm that people own and are citizens
Shep Titian: lol
Shep Titian: Just a fewprims
Pip Torok: possible Shep, except that prim-lots are for citizens with -not enough prims_ for their builds etc
Callipygian Christensen: Trebor, the fachwerks were grandfathered
Lilith Ivory: I agree PIp and imo we need them
Trebor Warcliffe: Yes but if we develop NFS East are we not going to have fachwerks so everythign blends together
Patroklus Murakami: can i suggest that we conclude our discussion on partners? and that someone (i.e. me) talks to ppl to see if abolition would bring up any fairness issues?
Sudane Erato: "zoning variance" :)
Pip Torok: dont forget .. new prims equal MORE citizens .. therefore back to square one!
Patroklus Murakami: i'd like to discuss sponsor citizens before we wrap up (only 25 mins left)
Trebor Warcliffe: ok
Pip Torok: ok
Bells Semyorka: While I like the idea of citizenship by sponsering land is nice, I think same rules should apply. Land ownership= citizenship. people can make donations if they wish but i think Land ownership should be key
Patroklus Murakami: sponsor citizens, as i understand it, pay L$250 to 'sponsor' a public location in CDS and get their citizenship that way.
Trebor Warcliffe: correct
Patroklus Murakami: they cant however modify the build on the land
Trebor Warcliffe: correct
Trebor Warcliffe: they are just a sponsor
Patroklus Murakami: from sudane's list i think we either have zero or one person who does thi
Patroklus Murakami: this
Patroklus Murakami: pls correct me if i'm wrong
Trebor Warcliffe: currently I think 2
Callipygian Christensen: or maintain it - I used sponsorship to maintain my citizenship when both of my parcels unexpectedly sold
Pip Torok: and does the citizenship obtained that way last "sine die" even if the public work was later abolished?
Patroklus Murakami: i'd like to invoke kant's 'categorical imperative' in relation to this one :)
Sudane Erato: whew!
Patroklus Murakami: what if everyone in the cds were to sell or abandon their plot of land and become sponsors of a location to retain citizenship? what would happen then?
Patroklus Murakami: just a thought!
Callipygian Christensen: there is a limit on the numbers ofsponsorable parcels
Trebor Warcliffe: we'd be screwed
Pip Torok: exactly
Callipygian Christensen: a little history of how that came about..it will only take a minute
Trebor Warcliffe: yes please Calli
Sudane Erato: but also all those people would lose the benefit of private ownership
Patroklus Murakami: go ahead calli
Callipygian Christensen: at the time of the commission CDS itself was selling land at very hig prices
Bells Semyorka: personally I see the landownership for citizenship essential to continue our growth and encourage new Sim development.
Patroklus Murakami: (from wikipedia: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law."
Callipygian Christensen: the desire of the group was to have a way form someone interested in CDS to come, attain citizenship 'try us out'..
Callipygian Christensen: and wait for an affordable parcel, or decide it was worth the $8L per sq m or whatever..
Callipygian Christensen: so it was seen as a temporary thing most likely..or a way for people 'leavig' but wanting to maintain their tie to the community to do so
Callipygian Christensen: the number of parcels was a limited number..and it was set at 250 L to match the minimum for any other method of attainsint citizenship
Callipygian Christensen: done
Patroklus Murakami: any thoughts on how this has worked in practice since the last commission established it?
Pip Torok: so for one payment there is citizenship for an indefinite period?
Callipygian Christensen: Pip..monthly tier payment
Sudane Erato: no, still monthly payments
Trebor Warcliffe: I feel we need to be consistent. We're not allowing group citizenship, we're not allowing partner citizenship, so we shouldnt allow sponsor citizenship.
Pip Torok: AH!
Callipygian Christensen: no different to a partner or group member
Callipygian Christensen: Trebor, id agree that if the toher methods disappear, so should the sponsorship
Pip Torok agree with trebor
Tanoujin Milestone nods
Callipygian Christensen: and CDS now sells land at far more reasonable prices
Bells Semyorka: indudials can always come and watch all interactions CDS has, were open to everyone as people can join Friends of CDS to test out how we operate
Trebor Warcliffe: yesss

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Patroklus Murakami
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Re: Transcript Citizenship Transparency Commission 20 Jan 20

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Trebor Warcliffe: 1.5l per sqm single
Trebor Warcliffe: 3.0L per sqm double prim
Callipygian Christensen: so the purpose of it has mostly disappeared
Trebor Warcliffe: yes
Trebor Warcliffe: ANd we have availabole land for purchse
Trebor Warcliffe: And we hope to expand soon
Trebor Warcliffe: Which is good that we're ironing out these types of issues
Patroklus Murakami: would ppl agree that land ownership, having a plot and building on it, is a more 'ideal' form of citizenhsip that sponsorship? or are they the same?
Patroklus Murakami: *than
Trebor Warcliffe: not the samwe
Trebor Warcliffe: same
Pip Torok: not the same
Patroklus Murakami: we do have some fairness issues to consider here too. what about ppl who are currently citizens because they sponsor a location?
Callipygian Christensen: not the same
Patroklus Murakami: do we give them a time in which to purchase a plot?
Sudane Erato: i don't think there are any now
Callipygian Christensen: is there anyone left doing that? I know I gave up my sponsorship when the parcel I wanted came available
Trebor Warcliffe: We can give them a certain amount of days to purchase a plot
Bells Semyorka: I think they should be given an acceptable amount of grace time to decide upon purchasing a plot
Patroklus Murakami: aaa,, that makes things easier sudane :)
Trebor Warcliffe: Calli you're not a sponsor anymore?
Pip Torok: well then we discontinue the practice .. and anyway are there more than 2 of them?
Bells Semyorka: lol jinx
Trebor Warcliffe: I believe there is only 1 than
Trebor Warcliffe: I can reach out to the individual
Patroklus Murakami: to summarise the discussion, the consensus seems to be to abolish sponsorship as a means of becoming/retaining citizenship
Callipygian Christensen: No Trebor..I purchased my gallery parcel some time ago
Trebor Warcliffe: than to the best of my knowledge there is only one sponsor
Pip Torok: so there are no longer sponsor cit izens then ?
Trebor Warcliffe: 1
Patroklus Murakami: we only have a few minutes left so i suggest we invite last commetns and then i will try to summarise and mention next steps
Trebor Warcliffe: Correct Sudane?
Sudane Erato: remind me who
Patroklus Murakami: is there anything we have not discussed which ppl really want to raise?
Trebor Warcliffe: Sudane I IM's you
Trebor Warcliffe: IM'd
Tanoujin Milestone: okay
Trebor Warcliffe: no I think we accomplished a great deal in two hours
Patroklus Murakami: ok. well i'll summarise if i may.
Patroklus Murakami: we did indeed cover a lot of ground!
Patroklus Murakami: the consensus seems to be that we ought to have citizenship derive from land ownership (and possibly tier payment)
Patroklus Murakami: that citizens could (should?) be clearly identified by ownerhsip in teh about land tab
Patroklus Murakami: that we need to sort out if citizenship begins on purchase or on first tier payment
Patroklus Murakami: that both options have advantages and disadvantages - many of these are technical in nature
Patroklus Murakami: we need to come to an agreement on this perhaps via further discussion here or on the forums
Patroklus Murakami: but the principle seems to be (at least) one plot = one citizen = one vote
Shep Titian: I agree
Patroklus Murakami: and to abolish group land ownership, partner citizenship and sponsor citizenship
Shep Titian: Ditto
Patroklus Murakami: now, anything i've left out or summarised inaccurately?
Trebor Warcliffe: I dont think so.
Pip Torok: i think thats it !!
Trebor Warcliffe: The only thing left is to work out the exact details of WHEN they become a citizen
Bells Semyorka: excellent work
Sudane Erato: only technical complications... which I'll try to expalin in the forums
Trebor Warcliffe: And HOW its done
Bells Semyorka: cookies for everyone!
Sudane Erato: hehe
Sudane Erato: yes!!
Pip Torok hopes Sudane's silence implies content on her part!
Patroklus Murakami: i think we have made amazing progress but there are still issues to resolve as trebor says. thank you to everyone for coming and being so helpful and constructive
Patroklus Murakami: this has been really useful
Patroklus Murakami: pls remember to click the recorder if you havent' already to indicate conset to be recorded
Sudane Erato: Pip... i'm here just for the feasibility issues... and we're not close to those yet :)
Callipygian Christensen: btw, any gifts in celebration of Pat and my partnership should be sent to *me*..preferably in the form of lindens
Sudane Erato: LOL :)))
Trebor Warcliffe: lol
Lilith Ivory: hehehe
Patroklus Murakami: the meeting transcript will be posted in the forums shortly
Shep Titian: Thank you for chairing Pat .. nicely done
Sudane Erato: yes... ty Pat!
Sudane Erato: much appreciated
Trebor Warcliffe: Pat is RA tomorrow?
Patroklus Murakami smiles at calli :)
Bells Semyorka has indicated consent to be recorded.
Callipygian Christensen: Sunday Trebor..9 am
Trebor Warcliffe: Would love to see this show of support at the RA meeting if possible
Patroklus Murakami: ty folks. i think we are now finished
Patroklus Murakami: i'll hold at least one more of these meetings inworld before we report to the RA in full
Sudane Erato: bye all... and ty so much!
Trebor Warcliffe: excellent
Patroklus Murakami: i'll give a report on progress so far on sunday
Tanoujin Milestone: bye, Sudane
Trebor Warcliffe: bye everyone thank you
Shep Titian: Bye
Lilith Ivory: bye Sudane :9
Tanoujin Milestone: Trebor :)
Patroklus Murakami: thx once again
Delia Lake: ty for chairing this important meeting, Pat. thoughtful meeting today
The meeting closed at 13:59 Linden time.

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