Patroklus Murakami: okay, lets begin
Vespasian Cortes: wheres caesar?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i have a couple citizens in relay 
Patroklus Murakami: i just want to recap on where we have got to and then suggest a structure for the meeting, if that's okay?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: C is working on a platform but im telling him what they said
Patroklus Murakami: we held one commission meeting on this subject already
Vespasian Cortes: so hurry up pat
Patroklus Murakami: that meeting had a fairly broad consensus on the way we should define citizenship
Patroklus Murakami: land ownership. one RL person = one avatar = one vote
Patroklus Murakami: and the abolition of group, sponsor and partner citizenship
Patroklus Murakami: all in the interest of making it more transparent who is/is not a citizen
CLEOPATRA Xigalia raises hand
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: hi Amitia !
Patroklus Murakami: i suggest we spend a few minutes on those conclusions before going on to other issues
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: good to see you again ! hugs
Vespasian Cortes: hello amita
Patroklus Murakami: in a minute cleo, haven't finished yet
Pip Torok: everyone this is Amitia our newest citizen .. please welcome her
Amitia Resident: hello Vespasian
Patroklus Murakami: then i suggest we talk about sudane's post. let me find the link
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: everyone meet Amiitia shes a new citizen
Amitia Resident: hi Cleo and hugs
Callipygian Christensen: Hi Amitia
Patroklus Murakami: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... =30#p19511
Patroklus Murakami: and, if we have time, we could consider what legislation might be needed
Amitia Resident: Hi Callipygian - thank you Pip and thank you all
Patroklus Murakami: gwyn has already posted some ideas. let me find them
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i think we should ad the alt finding software to the package
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: anna ran on that platform as being her first order of business if i recall.
Patroklus Murakami: ill post the link in a minute. the forums are v slow for me today
Patroklus Murakami: how does that sound as a structure for the meeting?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: id like to add the new topics
Pip Torok: fine pat
Patroklus Murakami: what new topics cleo?
Patroklus Murakami: gwyn's legislative proposals are here:
Patroklus Murakami: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3609
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: yw Nadine !
Patroklus Murakami: hi amitia, nadine. welcome
Pip Torok: welcome nadine
Vespasian Cortes: hello nadine
Patroklus Murakami: cleo? did you have something to add to the agenda i outlined?
Nadine Neddings: thanks.
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: yes !
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: I would like to discuss the addition of the alt finding and alt removal factor
Patroklus Murakami: let's see if we can get to that. it's not stricly part of our remit
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: let me paste from a RA members platform , and has everything to do with citizenship atm
Patroklus Murakami: that's not what this commission was set up for cleo. if we can discuss it later fine.
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i think it should be added to the definition of citizenship
Patroklus Murakami: but let's get on with the issues of trnsparecncy
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: you dont want that
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: but that is the most important issue of transparency and if i may
Patroklus Murakami: i outlined the results of the first commisison meeting.
Patroklus Murakami: does anyone have any commetns on that?
Patroklus Murakami: there were some comments initially on the commission transcript
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: it has been put out as one of the RA members first time items
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: and it hasnt been brought up as the probably most important part of citiznship
Callipygian Christensen raises her hand
Patroklus Murakami: yes calli
Patroklus Murakami: hi sudane
Pip Torok: most important?
Sudane Erato: hi
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i think transparency of citizens most importantly need to be that is ONE person
Patroklus Murakami: callli has the floor
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: oen avatar , one person
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: the rest is irrlevant if that is violated
Callipygian Christensen: Pat, I have no problem with what the first meeting came up with, but I note that it's a huge swing in viewpoint from the groups that met a year or so ago. I am thinking that getting it right and simple and clear matters a lot so we aerent doing this every 18 months when someone gets a bug up their butt over a decision and starts this ball rolling again
Patroklus Murakami: nicely put
CLEOPATRA Xigalia raises hand.
Sudane Erato:
Patroklus Murakami: cleo?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: what does she mean ?
Pip Torok: what she says, i wd suggest ...
Patroklus Murakami: i thought calli was quite clear
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i dont know what she is talking about .
Patroklus Murakami: i'm not sure we can ever resolve this forever and a day. it's likely to be an issue we return to from time to time
Patroklus Murakami: any other thoughts on the outcomes of the first commission?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: seh thinks we should leave it like it is ? citizenship rules ?
Patroklus Murakami: calli, would you like to respond?
Patroklus Murakami: (I'm aiming to wrap up by 1pm by the way folks. work tomorrow!)
Callipygian Christensen: ok
Callipygian Christensen: Arria led a commission with the same remit just over a year ago
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i think you need one parcel one vote.. but im sure you should count likely voter turnout first, to make sure you have gerimandered the votes properly to assure the current admin stays in .. and in control...
Shep Titian: I think the rules should be brought in as propsed .. and the alt detecto purchased as a purely policing enterprize
Patroklus Murakami: i dispute that the remit was the same. with respect
Callipygian Christensen: now another commission, gathering the desires of the citizens, is coming up with a totally different viewpoint.and that is fine - but let us aim for clear, simple and sensible so that we are not doing this once a year
Pip Torok: hear hear
Patroklus Murakami: let's move on folks. sudane had some thoughts on how we could make this work in practice
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: the citizens have CHANGED dramatically since last year Calli
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: me listens
Patroklus Murakami: sudane, are you ready to outline your thoughts? i posted a link to your forum post earlier
Callipygian Christensen: As I said, Cleo, if you tried reading all of the text instead of just part, I am fine with the changes, but amhoping for something lasting and clear
Sudane Erato: oh... well... I'm basically here to answer questions..
Sudane Erato: my post was just a suggestion
Sudane Erato: so that people at least understand the tools
Sudane Erato: that we have available
Sudane Erato: and particularly
Sudane Erato: the limits of those tools
Callipygian Christensen has a question for Sudane
Sudane Erato: I suggested that we just give the vote to anyone appearing on the Hiipo list
Sudane Erato: meaning anyone who pays tier
Sudane Erato: who i demonstrated to actually own land
Sudane Erato: thats it in a nutshell
Sudane Erato: done
Patroklus Murakami: calli?
Callipygian Christensen: Sudane, when you generate these lists, it's 'as of this moment'. Does the technology allow you to go back in time to a certain date and generate a list for that day?
Sudane Erato: it can only be "as of that moment"
Sudane Erato: there is storage, but its excessively complex to rebuild a snapshot from a different time
Shep Titian: Which is ok if its done at the correct date
Callipygian Christensen: then i would suggest an addition to your proposal of posting the lists giving a timeframe for any dispute to be registered
Sudane Erato: yes, exactly
Sudane Erato: i agree Calli
Patroklus Murakami: we have the date set months in advance now. so no one should have an excuse for not being current with tier on the due date
Sudane Erato: although its hard to dispute a machine
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: and no one but the landn owner .. not a added partner should be a citizen ?
Patroklus Murakami: there will. inevitably, be disputes. we need to factor in time for teh SC to consider and rule on them
Patroklus Murakami: that was the feeling of the last commission meeting cleo. no partners
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: yes i agree
Patroklus Murakami: or rather partner does not equal automatic citizenship
Callipygian Christensen: Posting the 'voter list' and allowing a time for registering challenges allows for that Pat
Patroklus Murakami: sudane, i thave a question
Patroklus Murakami: i thought your proposal was that we should generate a hippo list and a land scanner list. so you had to have paid tier and own a parcel to be a citizen in good standing.
Patroklus Murakami: do we only need one of those?
Sudane Erato: well... if we use only the Hippo list, we end up with the result I explained in the follow up to Fern
Sudane Erato: however,
Sudane Erato: at this moment
Sudane Erato: we do not actually have the capacity for a land scanner list
Sudane Erato: i simply suggested that that should be fairly easy to get
Sudane Erato: asking Timo to create that capacity
Patroklus Murakami: so, a question we need to consider is "do we want citizens to both own land and be up to date on tier? or just be up to date on tier?"
Sudane Erato: my suggestion was...
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: both
Sudane Erato: (1) up to date with tier on ONE parcel at least
Sudane Erato: and (2)
Sudane Erato: own at least one parcel
Patroklus Murakami: what do ppl think?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i have aquestion too ! ..
Callipygian Christensen: Just using 'up to date on tier' makes CDS a rental estate
Pip Torok: agree with Sudane
Shep Titian: Both .. it should be Owner = citizen .. Tier = rights
Sudane Erato: yes Calli, exactly
Patroklus Murakami: cleo? you had a question?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: does the avatar himself or herself have to pay the tier, or can lets say: sudane pay it for them out of kindness. ?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: cos i think the actual avatar should have to pay it
Sudane Erato: the avatar must pay the tier
Sudane Erato: there is what they call "
Sudane Erato: no proxy" payments
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: yay !
Patroklus Murakami: i'm hearing consensus so far on sudane's proposal. any differing views?
Sudane Erato: please keep in mind
Sudane Erato: my proposal...
Sudane Erato: you might be in default in 10 parcels
Sudane Erato: but if you are current with 1
Sudane Erato: you qualify
Patroklus Murakami: groan
Sudane Erato: its a terrible solution
Pip Torok: but in practice is that situation likely to happen?
Sudane Erato: but insisting on being current with all
Sudane Erato: is mechanically very difficult
Callipygian Christensen: well, it's very realistic to build in options for 'bad' citizens as well as good
Sudane Erato: yes, I suggested that being in default on "some" parcels
Sudane Erato: is an internal matter
Sudane Erato: not a qualifying matter
Patroklus Murakami: if someone is delinquent on nine parcels don't we just kick them off them? (after a suitable notice period?)
Sudane Erato: lol... fine with me!
Callipygian Christensen: I think that opens up the debate of 'being a citizen vsthe right to exercise the rights of a citizen'
Callipygian Christensen: If we say it's ok to vote if you are in default on 4 of your 5 parcels, and owe CDS a chunk of money, is it also ok for you to run for office in that situation?
Vespasian Cortes: dictatorship?
Patroklus Murakami: sudane, the majority of our citizens have only one or two parcels though? would i be right in thinking that delinquency on 9/10 is a rare event?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i think they should be up to date on ALL tier personaly !
Sudane Erato: yes, i'm sure it would be rare
Patroklus Murakami: we need to keep in mind that, unless our system is simple to administer, it simply wont' work
Pip Torok: in practice, what citizen wd vote for a defaulter?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: wouldnt that make it simiple
Callipygian Christensen: But it's the 'rare' instances, when they finally DO occur, that become such a time consuming and disruptive occurence
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: you were voted for when you had broken the rule of how many parcels to own pip
Sudane Erato: one does always know if someone is a defaulter or is simply letting their ownership lapse
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: yes i think make it simple, up to date on all tier.
Sudane Erato: that would be a dispute
Patroklus Murakami: let's keep it on issues. not personal
Sudane Erato: and not clear to the machine
Callipygian Christensen: Pip..if they know them personally and no one else on the list..I'd say a lot would *shrug*
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i don tlike if someone owns 10 parcels and pays one tier they can vote or run or anything.. pay it all or .. you are out
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: thats what i think
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: make it simple
Patroklus Murakami: i think the question is whether that is workable cleo. and what if someone is in default on only one out of ten parcels? you exclude them then?
Patroklus Murakami: sudane. how easy would it be to check that somoen is up to date on all parcels they own?
Sudane Erato: its easy to see if they are... BUT
Sudane Erato: it is not easy to tell what they intend... they might intend to give up that parcel
Pip Torok: one thing to consider are the chances that any defaulter wd complete his/her term of office
Shep Titian: Hell at thjis rate no one could stand
Sudane Erato:
Pip Torok: and i wd suggest that wd weigh on voters' minds
Shep Titian: No Pip
Patroklus Murakami: on this one i'm hearing more than one viewpoint. some want to keep it simple, with at least one parcel owned, and at least one up to date. some want all parcels up to date or disqualify
CLEOPATRA Xigalia raises hand..
Shep Titian: Anyone can leave at anytime
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: that brings up other things, like can someone vote or run for office, if .. lets say they own too many parcels ?
Patroklus Murakami: would anyone who has *not* spoken so far like to contribute?
Shep Titian: Can we look forward not past
Nadine Neddings: I'm not a citizen, but am interested in learning more, so thank you but no, I am just observing quietly.
Pip Torok: its what we reckon voters reaction to that default might be, if any, Shep
Patroklus Murakami: thx nadine
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: the past helps us see possible issues going forward.
Callipygian Christensen raises her hand
Patroklus Murakami: i suggest we move on. we can explore the detail of this issue further on the forums
Patroklus Murakami: calli?
Callipygian Christensen: I would just like to point out that we are dealing with adults; if people clearly know the dates that matter, its not unreasonable to expect them to either pay the tier or give up the land to comply on the right date
Callipygian Christensen: People have to have some level of responsibility and accountability - so I am for pay it all up or dnt make the list
Patroklus Murakami: adults yes. but still fallible human beings for all that
Patroklus Murakami: but lets get into that one on the forums? we will probably not resolve it here now
Patroklus Murakami: has anyone had a chance to consider the legislative proposals gwyn put on the forums?
Patroklus Murakami: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3609
Patroklus Murakami: this was back in november
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: the transistion piece is interesting
Sudane Erato: i think they are great!
Amitia Resident: I'll have to read it - I am new here
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: transition
Amitia Resident: thank you
Sudane Erato: but they need to be adjusted based on feasibility
Patroklus Murakami: i agree they make a good starting point
Patroklus Murakami: cleo. what did you mean about 'transition'?
Patroklus Murakami: cleo?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: how we go from hving partners to not
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: and giving them a chance to buy
Patroklus Murakami: ah yes. i see what you mean
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: gwyn had a plan for that
Patroklus Murakami: any other thoughts on gwyn's proposals? if not, we can consider the alt scanning tool issue
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: could be a yellow plague solution
Patroklus Murakami: indeed cleo
Patroklus Murakami: okay. let's move on. cleo, you wanted to discuss the issue of alt policing?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: look at annas platform she ran on pat
Callipygian Christensen: My only comments on Gwyn's proposals is that they could be written in clearer simpler form, with the adjustments Sudane is making..*and* with clarity around 'there will always be a residency requirement of some number of days before you have the right to run or to vote'
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: she stated if i recall it would be her first order of business
Callipygian Christensen: sorry..Sudeane is suggesting, not making
Patroklus Murakami: we are not here to discuss anna's election platform
Patroklus Murakami: what is the tool you are referring to?
Patroklus Murakami: how does it work? and is it within the LL TOS?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: for alts ?
Patroklus Murakami: yes
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: its easy . mm we make it a policy that you must agree to let your IP address availalbe
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: and if tow people have the same one
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: we have a discussion about why
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: like me and Ceasar can voice simultaneously
Vespasian Cortes: proxy ip still exists
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: there are solutions to prove you aren a single person voting
Patroklus Murakami: it's an issue we have struggled with for years. how do we know who is/is not an alt?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i think its clear that needs to be dealt with .. or even at some point a signed avadavit that you are not in violation
Pip Torok: disclsong IP addresses lays all of us open to abuse
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: no it doesnt pip ..
Pip Torok: disclosure even
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: all they know is a general whereabouts which most of us say
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: and anyway if you dont wanna be a CDS citizen and vote, to prove it just leave then
Patroklus Murakami: what if someone objects to providing their IP address on principle?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: no one makes you be a citizen
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: then we dont let them vote
Vespasian Cortes: if neccessary you can get any number of ip using a proxy, so why you are discussing it?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: thats the issue .. do we want transparency or not
Shep Titian: I've run a forum that had one .. it came as standard .. it did tell us the IP tho
Patroklus Murakami: sounds totalitarian to me
Pip Torok: i hold to my assertion, CLEO IP addresses make us vulnerable
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: its important with the abuse that is possible
Patroklus Murakami: "do as we say or we don't let you vote"
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: well of course you would pip
Nadine Neddings nods quietly in agreement with Vespasian's assessment.
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: but also .. i think there is some sort of solution too
Shep Titian: If it only told us the avi names that shared IP then ok
Patroklus Murakami: and it can be got around using the means vesp outlines
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: at the VERY least, we have to make people sign .. electiornically a sworn statemnt that its one avie one person one vote
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: but there are viable solutions to making an effort to proving it
Patroklus Murakami: that sounds more plausible cleo. if we decided to, it could be added to the voting software i imagine
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: what do you think shep
Shep Titian: You can get a roaming IP yes
Patroklus Murakami: but, of course, it only works for honest ppl!
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i am getting incoming opinions from citizens.. .. A website to check IP address..
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: a declaration
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: if you have a roaming IP
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: will it be the same every time
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: so month to month we check in ?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: oh you say you are traveling
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: idk
Patroklus Murakami needs to wrap up in five minutes....
