Reforming Land Sales

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Patroklus Murakami
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Re: Reforming Land Sales

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

The issue is not, as Cleo has suggested, to prevent fraud by the Chancellor. This is a red herring put forward in order to cloud the issue. Chancellor's are elected representatives and, as such, face the ballot box if they fail to deliver or behave in a partisan fashion.

The issue is that *private citizens* (even, shock, horror, RA members) with deep pockets and a keen eye (or landscanner?) for newly abandoned land can control access to citizenship. When this happens the individual buys the land and then either flips it to one of their friends or sits on it until they can persuade someone to take it. This would be an effective tactic if, for example, someone had systematically alienated the long-standing citizens of the CDS and needed to continually bring in new people unaware of their history in order to maintain a power base.

A quick look at the landscanner here can be highly educational.

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Re: Reforming Land Sales

Post by cleopatraxigalia »

Pat,
darling, relax. no one is trying to take over CDS and no one is doing what you say or has.. I wonder if you have looked at the link you posted. ill cut n paste from it and say what I know if anything about the sale.
Seriously .. you want to make a law to protect CDS from me? I am so sorry but are you serious? I do not have a land scanner .. I don't even have the emails a bunch of people get when the land sells in CDS.
I have indeed helped MANY people come to CDS, with no strings attached... like many others do, I know lots of people bring their friends.. .. its fun.. . I wish we all would do that more.

Let's revisit Beathan's post that suggests we have a "real estate commission" to promote citizens bringing other citizens. Pip's post was actually good in this point, I encourage Pip to go to all university and technical university sites and meet cool people and teach them about CDS and show them how to buy land. Let's all do that!

I would much rather have the trouble of "what sim to we buy next" than how can we make ends meet> with half empty sims ..

Land scanner from Link pat posted :

Wed, 01 Jan 2014 09:26:55 -0700 Alpine Meadow Molly Medier Asterix Beresford Alpine Meadow CH8 L$3072 to own, L$3336 per month, 468 prims 1024 m²

( this parcel molly set for sale , it was for a few days as I recall, its next door to my land .. before cleo did not buy it, even though she has only three parcels and wants more land. )

Thu, 02 Jan 2014 16:30:40 -0700 Alpine Meadow CLEOPATRA Xigalia Lam Erin DH10 Prims ONLY 512 m²

(Lam, wanted some prim land but wasn't in world so I did buy this and then sold it to lam who had told me he wanted prim land for his house in AM )

Sat, 04 Jan 2014 00:27:48 -0700 Locus Amoenus Lam Erin AbbyRose Abbot Roman Bath 1024 m²

nothing to do with me.

Sun, 05 Jan 2014 17:36:20 -0700 Neufreistadt Sudane Erato Garnet Psaltery Neufreistadt South Gate 720


nothing to do with me.

Mon, 06 Jan 2014 04:34:59 -0700 Alpine Meadow Asterix Beresford Rudo Gynoid Alpine Meadow CH8 L$3072 to own, L$3336 per month, 468 prims 1024 m²


nothing to do with me.

Mon, 06 Jan 2014 04:41:46 -0700 Colonia Nova someone (2734e69f-b934-a12e-b8ac-4a48a62af1cf) Naftali Torok The Garden of Peace 2640 m²


nothing to do with me.

Mon, 06 Jan 2014 19:41:32 -0700 Colonia Nova Ceasar Xigalia JerryDon Lane CLEO X RLV strippable rlv clothing strip off with consent touch 400 m²


nothing to do with me.

Tue, 07 Jan 2014 05:12:24 -0700 Colonia Nova Callipygian Christensen Pip Torok S.06 128 m²


nothing to do with me.

Wed, 08 Jan 2014 06:02:18 -0700 Colonia Nova Asterix Beresford Rudo Gynoid S.04 128 m²

Wed, 08 Jan 2014 06:05:50 -0700 Neufreistadt Asterix Beresford Rudo Gynoid Cadence\'s conversation place at Gwynethstrasse 1240 144 m²

Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:58:56 -0700 Monastery Io Bechir Pip Torok Hamlet 1, Monastery 512 m²

Mon, 13 Jan 2014 10:34:25 -0700 Neufreistadt josjoha Resident Ceasar Xigalia Open, Welcome, Talenstrasse 2485 144 m²

nothing to do with me

Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:15:23 -0700 Neufreistadt CLEOPATRA Xigalia doctor Copperfield (unnamed) 288 m²

I sold my precious Christmas cottage in nfs to a guy who was visiting CDS and wanted to move here. I met him randomly, found out actually he knows Vic Mornington.. and sold him my house cos he wanted to live in NFS. He used to bring newbies to CDS years ago and loves it. I would love to have a nfs parcel to replace it if anyone has one to sell.

Tue, 14 Jan 2014 11:15:24 -0700 Neufreistadt Rudeen Edo Timo Gufler P280-12 Reserved for City Prim Parcels 144 m²
Mon, 20 Jan 2014 08:15:16 -0700 Locus Amoenus RemisFargo Resident Garnet Psaltery Diogenes of Sinope Memory Hall 1024 m²
Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:29:41 -0700 Neufreistadt csblmt7 Resident Coltrane Shostakovich Xuryon\'s Escape 1104 m²
Mon, 27 Jan 2014 15:05:52 -0700 Locus Amoenus Rudeen Edo Bagheera Kristan Locus Amoenus P12 CDS Citizen Owned and Governed Democracy 160 m²
Mon, 27 Jan 2014 15:08:44 -0700 Locus Amoenus Rudeen Edo Bagheera Kristan Locus Amoenus P12 CDS Citizen Owned and Governed Democracy 160 m²
Mon, 27 Jan 2014 15:11:04 -0700 Locus Amoenus Rudeen Edo Bagheera Kristan Locus Amoenus P12 CDS Citizen Owned and Governed Democracy 160 m²
Mon, 27 Jan 2014 16:24:36 -0700 Neufreistadt Garnet Psaltery Rosie Gray 1600 Catfahrt

Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:35:25 -0700 Locus Amoenus Rudeen Edo someone (3c219073-485c-8181-49f7-eeb48f642242) Locus Amoenus Common Land -- CDS 30832 m²
Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:38:11 -0700 Locus Amoenus Rudeen Edo someone (3c219073-485c-8181-49f7-eeb48f642242) Locus Amoenus Common Land -- CDS 30832 m²
Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:40:58 -0700 Locus Amoenus Rudeen Edo someone (3c219073-485c-8181-49f7-eeb48f642242) Locus Amoenus Common Land -- CDS 30832 m²
Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:43:47 -0700 Locus Amoenus Pip Torok someone (3c219073-485c-8181-49f7-eeb48f642242) Locus Amoenus Common Land -- CDS 30832 m²
Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:46:33 -0700 Locus Amoenus Rudeen Edo someone (3c219073-485c-8181-49f7-eeb48f642242) Locus Amoenus Common Land -- CDS 1232 m²
Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:49:19 -0700 Locus Amoenus Rudeen Edo someone (3c219073-485c-8181-49f7-eeb48f642242) Locus Amoenus Common Land -- CDS 1232 m²
Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:52:05 -0700 Locus Amoenus Rudeen Edo someone (3c219073-485c-8181-49f7-eeb48f642242) Locus Amoenus Common Land -- CDS 1232 m²
Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:55:26 -0700 Locus Amoenus Rudeen Edo someone (3c219073-485c-8181-49f7-eeb48f642242) Locus Amoenus Common Land -- CDS 30832 m²
Mon, 27 Jan 2014 22:30:34 -0700 Locus Amoenus Rudeen Edo someone (3c219073-485c-8181-49f7-eeb48f642242) Locus Amoenus Common Land -- CDS 31344 m²
Mon, 27 Jan 2014 22:38:22 -0700 Locus Amoenus Rudeen Edo someone (3c219073-485c-8181-49f7-eeb48f642242) P28 Locus Amoenus 1024 m²
Mon, 27 Jan 2014 22:59:26 -0700 Locus Amoenus Rudeen Edo someone (3c219073-485c-8181-49f7-eeb48f642242) Locus Amoenus Common Land -- CDS 32880 m²
Mon, 27 Jan 2014 23:14:56 -0700 Locus Amoenus Rudeen Edo someone (3c219073-485c-8181-49f7-eeb48f642242) Locus Amoenus Common Land -- CDS 33792 m²
Mon, 27 Jan 2014 23:18:24 -0700 Locus Amoenus Rudeen Edo someone (3c219073-485c-8181-49f7-eeb48f642242) Locus Amoenus Common Land -- CDS 33264 m²
Mon, 27 Jan 2014 23:21:11 -0700 Locus Amoenus Rudeen Edo someone (3c219073-485c-8181-49f7-eeb48f642242) Locus Amoenus Common Land -- CDS

really pat what is your point? I am curious.

please give specific examples of what I done and I am happy to explain ... cleo

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Re: Reforming Land Sales

Post by cleopatraxigalia »

Pat says: The issue is not, as Cleo has suggested, to prevent fraud by the Chancellor. This is a red herring put forward in order to cloud the issue. Chancellor's are elected representatives and, as such, face the ballot box if they fail to deliver or behave in a partisan fashion.

Cleo Asks:

I simply suggested that we have a system that is more TRANSPARENT. Why do you oppose transparency ?

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Re: Reforming Land Sales

Post by cleopatraxigalia »

Patroklus Murakami wrote:

The issue is not, as Cleo has suggested, to prevent fraud by the Chancellor. This is a red herring put forward in order to cloud the issue. Chancellor's are elected representatives and, as such, face the ballot box if they fail to deliver or behave in a partisan fashion.
.

Gwyn's manifesto:
http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=4197

Gwyn said in her manifesto for this election.. and I quote:

"the Chancellor has become exactly what we feared it would become: an office with quasi-unlimited power, able to override pretty much every legislation, able to interpret Covenants, assign land to whomever they wish for whatever price they want, kick people out without recourse or appeal, invite others in and hand them land, and veto all laws passed by the RA that they dislike. So far, the only thing that the Chancellor cannot (yet) do is to prevent elections — but they can certainly influence who gets on the citizens' list or not (by removing land, returning payments, and so forth, so as to influence the census).

Clearly this has gone too far."
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Jamie says

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Re: Reforming Land Sales

Post by cleopatraxigalia »

Patroklus Murakami wrote:

Our current mechanisms for selling land (and thereby establishing citizenship) are open to abuse. It is possible with our current rules for individuals or groups to control access to land sales and thereby to citizenship in the CDS. The way this works is to buy up plots of land whenever they become free and then control who purchases them by only selling (or giving) them to your friends and supporters. In this way, someone who would fail to gain political support by appealing to the current citizens can build a power base by controlling access to newcomers.

These sales are all recorded on the landscanner here.

I think we could find a way to prevent this kind of abuse which would also make the CDS a genuinely open society. One solution would be to hold a 'waiting list' for parcels in the CDS with the Chancellor. When parcels are abandoned, or when citizens are considering selling their plot, the person at the head of the waiting list could be asked if they would be interested in the parcel. If they're not, you could go further down the list until you find someone who would like to take it. This would be the way that all abandoned parcels are dealt with but voluntary when citizens are thinking about selling. We would have to publicise this in order to raise awareness that this would be a way to sell your parcel.

We could go a step further and enforce the rule that all land sales are centralised in this way. That's probably a step too far for most people; I would have some concerns about it myself. But it would mean that people were genuine in coming to the CDS and make it more difficult to manipulate the electoral roll by 'gifting' land to friends and 'helping out' with tier in return for votes.

Pat when you say :

We could go a step further and enforce the rule that all land sales are centralised in this way. That's probably a step too far for most people; I would have some concerns about it myself. But it would mean that people were genuine in coming to the CDS and make it more difficult to manipulate the electoral roll by 'gifting' land to friends and 'helping out' with tier in return for votes.

Some very good citizens like Gauis for example have been "gifted" tier and land in the past. Who demanded that he vote for him when they helped him? Are you saying people who need financial help are less capable citizens than others? I don't think so. And I don't think any real person would accept that sort of deal anyway. I don't know of it ever happening, not ever.

The way CDS is most likely to be "bought " is by someone using alts as we know people who support you have done, what plan do you have to tackle the issue of having alts in CDS cheating the system in that way ? Ats, or Proxy use as it was called to white wash the truth, i.e. having a rl friend create an account and then giving the password to someone who can then say its not their alt... but that they are using another persons account by "proxy"..... blahhhh same thing. .... On the other hand .. I know of no cases of people buying votes in CDS by paying for tier or giving land, it's just not sensible. Real people don't agree to such situations, but alts and proxy voters do. And, I do know of cases of people using alts to gain more control of CDS by owning more than their legal quantity of land as well as having the right to vote more than one time.
What is your opinion on what CDS can do to eliminate that plague on our community.

Also I have concerns when you say or even mention that all land sales become centralized so that its possible to control who comes in other than a free market system. Especially when you want to put the centralized control of land sales under the hand of an elected official. The chancellor already has TOO MUCH control of how land gets sold, and can lock parcels and hold them for who they please. A chancellor facing reelection or moving to a RA post, having control of who enters CDS is in effect controlling his own voter base. Also I noticed that you , Pat, recently purchased two large parcels in LA that had been on the open market a few days... do you not think you should have that right ? And now if you sell them to a friend or someone you meet who says they want to move to CDS and want your parcel are you violating the law or being unethical?

How do you plan to promote expansion if you are so afraid that the "wrong people" will move to CDS?

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Re: Reforming Land Sales

Post by cleopatraxigalia »

Reforming Land Sales

Postby Patroklus Murakami » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:32 am

Our current mechanisms for selling land (and thereby establishing citizenship) are open to abuse. It is possible with our current rules for individuals or groups to control access to land sales and thereby to citizenship in the CDS. The way this works is to buy up plots of land whenever they become free and then control who purchases them by only selling (or giving) them to your friends and supporters. In this way, someone who would fail to gain political support by appealing to the current citizens can build a power base by controlling access to newcomers.

These sales are all recorded on the landscanner here.

I think we could find a way to prevent this kind of abuse which would also make the CDS a genuinely open society. One solution would be to hold a 'waiting list' for parcels in the CDS with the Chancellor. When parcels are abandoned, or when citizens are considering selling their plot, the person at the head of the waiting list could be asked if they would be interested in the parcel. If they're not, you could go further down the list until you find someone who would like to take it. This would be the way that all abandoned parcels are dealt with but voluntary when citizens are thinking about selling. We would have to publicise this in order to raise awareness that this would be a way to sell your parcel.

We could go a step further and enforce the rule that all land sales are centralised in this way. That's probably a step too far for most people; I would have some concerns about it myself. But it would mean that people were genuine in coming to the CDS and make it more difficult to manipulate the electoral roll by 'gifting' land to friends and 'helping out' with tier in return for votes.

Tue, 29 Apr 2014 01:11:43 -0600 Neufreistadt Gelf Yalin Rudeen Edo Law Firm in Atlanta, Georgia USA\'s Second Life Office 144 m²
Tue, 29 Apr 2014 01:18:39 -0600 Neufreistadt Rudeen Edo Patroklus Murakami HLS 2115 144 m²
Tue, 29 Apr 2014 01:25:27 -0600 Neufreistadt Patroklus Murakami Rosie Gray HLS 2115 144 m²

Let me explain how I understand this transaction..... Arguably one of the most VALUABLE parcels in CDS....a small farchwerk commercial shop on the square in NFS... Was somehow taken by the chancellors office and set for sale?? Who had knowledge of this ? .. .... Someone who is an Estate Manager and works for the chancellor set this parcel for sale.

The CHANCELLOR then took possession of this parcel himself, he personally purchased... . AND sold it to the GUILDMEISTER?????????????? who is a MEMBER OF THE RA .. ??????????????>>...........................please do explain it to all of us ........We are waiting to hear how the transparency in government works now !

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Re: Reforming Land Sales

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Question answered here.

Now, a couple of questions for you Cleo:

  • If you had turned up as I was setting the land for sale and you had said "I want to buy this plot" should I have sold it to you or not?
    When you bought the plot at Ulrikastrasse 1505 from Tandra on 30 April (which had been over a fortnight overdue on tier) had she paid up the amount she owed the CDS? Or did you pay the outstanding tier? Did either of you pay what was owed to the CDS before you flipped the land the next day?

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Re: Reforming Land Sales

Post by Bromo Ivory »

Perhaps CDS should consider how it repossesses land and redeploys it?

If she is afraid of the Chancellor of gaming the system, and the Chancellor is afraid she is ... perhaps we should just accept the current state of affairs as being unacceptable, and work to reform it to prevent both situations?

As a citizen who abandons land more often than he sells it, I think a more regular exchange is called for if we're going to accuse each other of "cheating" when buying and selling land (for the record, I resent the term "flip" since that has negative connotations, and if we want a more harmonious CDS, we should avoid dismissive language and negative characterizations wherever possible).

So ... are you guys interested in solving these problems ... ?

Patroklus Murakami wrote:

Question answered here.

Now, a couple of questions for you Cleo:

  • If you had turned up as I was setting the land for sale and you had said "I want to buy this plot" should I have sold it to you or not?
    When you bought the plot at Ulrikastrasse 1505 from Tandra on 30 April (which had been over a fortnight overdue on tier) had she paid up the amount she owed the CDS? Or did you pay the outstanding tier? Did either of you pay what was owed to the CDS before you flipped the land the next day?

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