Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Proposals for legislation and discussions of these

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Spider22997
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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Spider22997 »

In regards to committee members and where you would recruit them, well maybe having former sim owners would be good as they have the experience in dealing with people and I am sure they would not be biased and they would have some friends that would volunteer to serve on this committee. All would be fair and honest and have no bias against their neighbors; all would be perfect human beings, saints of the community. No royalty here

Victor1
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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Victor1 »

Lam Erin wrote:

People like interpreting statement according to their wishes and not according to what is actually written.

So now you just come down to the old "your twisting everything i say" argument. Sure, ok, thats fine, you can have your point of view if your not willing to listen to arguments.

I have already spelled out the inherent problems with this system. You are not willing to listen. If this system goes ahead with it's current plan, I will not take part in it.

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Garnet Psaltery
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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Garnet Psaltery »

I was reminded the other day that I'd been amongst a group of people in 2006 (I believe) who were trying to find ways to rid the home sim of its biggest troublemaker. I'd completely forgotten that - put it in some benighted corner of my mind - or I might have thought twice about returning. I can't even remember how we did it but it can't have been anything to do with a grievance procedure or we'd have it already. 7 years later and we''re still trying to work out a way to get rid of disease? Damn it all, people, is it worth the years of real suffering? My suggestion? Allow Sudane to take over as Empress for one week - a damn good coup - clear the ground of pestilence and then get on with it until the next time.

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Cadence Theas
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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Cadence Theas »

Hi Vic,

Cadence here. The idea is not to draw lines in the sand. As I told Pat, this is just a first rough draft, where we are looking for input based on the idea that somehow, someway we can make CDS a more pleasant place to live. Where, if not reconciliation, at least a relative co-existence can be expected.

What do YOU need to see in the proposal so that it begins to work for you? The question starts from the premise that something can be done.

I really am trying to listen, and see if there is the grounds for a consensus.

Cadence

Ps. Garnet’s idea is kind of cool too

Spider22997
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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Spider22997 »

I remember when I moved here on August 12, 2012 all the residents I met were very nice and friendly, such a nice quiet place to live…but the harmony and quality of life did not last for long.

The decline started the day I was contacted by a new resident who is self defined as royalty, that was the day the music died..

It all started with the subtle whispers of discontent…on and on the royal went about all the faults of CDS and the ethics of those running it. The royal wanted this for the shopkeepers and wanted that, always a negative word about the homeland I found so wonderful to be a part of.

I will say I have a low tolerance for people of this caliber who love drama and feed on the misery they inflict on others.

When few here would listen to the royal words of discontent the royal brought in friends who must believe every word the royal speaks and follow in lockstep behind.
Discontent rang throughout the land and many were constantly bothered by the royal and her band of merry followers.

Now the followers wish to make new laws to stop the discontent and fighting which is sad to say a common occurrence now.
Why I ask must all conform to new laws, new rules that were not necessary prior to the royals arrival and her followers. Why must I give up some of my rights to free speech to squelch the drama. The followers are quick to find a solution, but is the solution our doom?

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Garnet Psaltery
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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Garnet Psaltery »

You have it right, Spider.

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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Lam Erin »

Victor1 wrote:
Lam Erin wrote:

People like interpreting statement according to their wishes and not according to what is actually written.

So now you just come down to the old "your twisting everything i say" argument. Sure, ok, thats fine, you can have your point of view if your not willing to listen to arguments.

I have already spelled out the inherent problems with this system. You are not willing to listen. If this system goes ahead with it's current plan, I will not take part in it.

Yes i referred to interpretation issues because you dont read the complete text of what was proposed and neither the explanations given. You are trying to read between the lines seeking some conspiracy, some set up etc (you said that)...There is nothing but an intention to do something to make cds better.

There are more inherent problems in the current system Vic than in a proposed conflict resolution mechanism. These tools you have mentioned are available already...They havent made CDS better...And passing the ball to LL who are notoriously slow in resolving the type of disputes CDS is facing does not solve the problem.

..But even if LL were to act why use LL as a first resort and not try resolve the problem at CDS level first? We are supposed to be a community..Communities resolve the issues between themselves first...They should at least. If someone doesnt trust the fellow members t discuss and resolve the problems then there is no reason for that person to be in this community.

I say again all groups in CDS have some ways of resolving disputes between themselves..

There are no magic solutions or perfect schemes but what you are suggesting is actually to do nothing or get busy filing abuse reports.
Thats a view, I respect it, I dont agree with it...

And I am not the one who will decide at the end if anything will be approved. May be not...CDS may decide to do nothing or do something different from what we proposed..

We wil see...For me the method is not so important but to do something, which can work.

"To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often". Winston Churchill
Lam Erin
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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Lam Erin »

Spider22997 wrote:

I

Now the followers wish to make new laws to stop the discontent and fighting which is sad to say a common occurrence now.

Who are the followers? Me or Cadence? Because if you imply us you have no idea....

"To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often". Winston Churchill
Spider22997
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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Spider22997 »

To thin own self be true..

Let me repeat..

Why I ask must all conform to new laws, new rules that were not necessary prior to the royals arrival and her followers. Why must I give up some of my rights to free speech to squelch the drama. The followers are quick to find a solution, but is the solution our doom?

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Garnet Psaltery
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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Garnet Psaltery »

Lam Erin wrote:

If someone doesnt trust the fellow members t discuss and resolve the problems then there is no reason for that person to be in this community.

Er, that statement has to include the situation of people who've been abused by a section of the community and know that the perpetrators have followers who make discussion and resolution difficult .. and the ones abused are the ones who should leave. Right.

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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Spider22997 »

Yes Garnet, I guess the abused should leave, this grievance committee thing reminds me of a Judy Garland, Mickey Rooney movie, “let’s have a show”

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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Lam Erin »

Spider22997 wrote:

To thin own self be true..

Let me repeat..

Why I ask must all conform to new laws, new rules that were not necessary prior to the royals arrival and her followers. Why must I give up some of my rights to free speech to squelch the drama. The followers are quick to find a solution, but is the solution our doom?

So you are accusing me of being a follower of Cleo.....You never spoke to me, you never talked to me but you have an opinion that I am a follower of Cleo because of your misconception or misinformation.. So if Lam talks to Cleo is follower, so what he proposes here serves Cleo's interest...And you are asking me to tell you about things that happened in 2012 when I was not in CDS...Does this sound reasonable to you?

...This is a reason why CDS is full of drama...People's personal conflicts feed their paranoia that whoever speaks to their perceived enemy is enemy as well. On the other hand others see ghosts of the past everywhere.Others recall 2006, 2012 or other incidents of the past..And we are in 2014....

I guess in CDS there is no way to discuss with anybody in a civilised and fruitful way unless this anybody belongs to your perceived gang, or clique or group or can cope with misconceptions or prejudices.

For the history, and for whoever bothers to read beyond their prejudice and obsessions, I met Cleo when I came here and I came here because of Abby..The person from CDS I have known for a long time and with whom we are good friends is Shep. Here I met various people including Cleo..I speak to Cleo and to all who want to speak with me in CDS and I socialise with anybody who wants the same...But my acts in cds are my decision and have nothing to do with your personal wars and obssessions.

I have no relationship with cliques, gangs and I am in no conflict or war with anybody...I propose things I believe can help CDS become a better place..
If people dont like them I will stop...And maybe I should because I dont see myself talking to sober and reasonable people who want to talk common sense but to their obsessions.

"To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often". Winston Churchill
Victor1
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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Victor1 »

Lam Erin wrote:

And we are in 2014....

Exactly Lam, this is 2014.

You have no faith in the Linden Lab terms of service...ok, I didnt either and in some cases I still don't. However that system has been in place for more than 10 years. Caledon (with its 50+ sims) use it. Anshe Chung (with her 4000+ sims) use it, New Babbage (with its 10 sims) use it.

Your "idea" for a new Greviance Committee would blur that line to such an extent that people will become MORE paranoid. People will retract further away from any sort of major public event incase one of the trolls in CDS starts their hidden harrasement in order for their target to blow up publically so they can be hauled infront of your inquisition, because thats what the Greviance Committee will become, a flat out inquisition. A tool to be used by people who like to skirt the line, to goad people into a public blow out, the same people who skirt the ToS line will then use your committee and say "but i didnt do anything wrong!". Technically, under the ToS they would be right, they didnt do anything wrong. However the person they goaded into making a public outburst will be in the wrong in the eyes of your committee. It will become a joke.

Let me make it even more clear for you what will happen if this plan as it stands now goes through.

Lets say one of these people decides to goad me into a forum attack, or even speaking out against them in CDS public chat. Its the pattern that these people have always done.

Lets say I am hauled up infront of your Greivance Comittee, and lets say the person who goaded me into a rant says that it was all my fault. The evidence your farcical committee will have is me ranting in a forum, or me ranting in CDS chat or me ranting in public chat. The evidence i have to back up my case? Nothing, because the person making the accusation knows how to skirt that line of the ToS so they DONT get banned. Grievance Committee will rule against me, case goes to the SC.

You want this system to become part of CDS?

Really?

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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Lam Erin »

Vic,

When I said earlier you dont read I will repeat it..The text of the draft clearly says that the Committee does not allocate blame. It is not their role to allocate blame.It is role is only to try to reconcile the parties where appropriate...I also said that you dont even need evidence in the "Judicial" sense because it is not a court.

What the Committee will do is simply the following:

Lets say that two cds citizens are in conflict. They accuse each other of harassment, bullying, defamation and everything you can imagine..They make noise about these things in CDS, they drag supporters to support them etc. The whole CDS is mess..

What the Commission will do if the case it taken to it (by either of the parties or those fed up with the fighting) is to ask the parties to find a way to resolve this conflict. If the parties can have their own mutually agreed solution the Committee will accept it..
If not, the Committee will propose them its own which would be, I can imagine, to abstain whilst in CDS from further steps that will continue the conflict. The parties may be told to abstain from direct communication in the forum or CDS for a specified period. Or to avoid repeating accusation in public...The purpose would be to help reduce tensions in the community..

No blame decision no punishment..

The parties can appeal against the proposed solution, which applies as we said only if the parties cant agree to their own solution. The possibility of punishment, following two warnings, will come only if the parties repeatedly ignore the Committee's recommendations or they break their own agreement and continue fighting...

I dont know what you find so wrong in this process...
I say again there will be no guilt allocation and no punishment..Just proposal for solution to the dispute or at least for preventing the conflict from continuing in CDS.

For serious punishment (expulsion from SL) there is LL as you said.

"To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often". Winston Churchill
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Cadence Theas
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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Cadence Theas »

Dear all,

Against my better judgment and contrary to a sense of commitment I feel toward CDS, I am retracting my original proposal for a grievance committee. Feel free to use the text as you see fit, but please keep my authorship out of the discussion from now on.

I think it is sad that there cannot be a civil discussion about the well-being of CDS, rather a head bashing of egos at any cost over a tiny piece of virtual reality and to the detriment of a marvelous experience in virtual democracy.

To use spider’s example since she contributed so meaningfully to this discussion, the royals are on the sidelines laughing at the disorder they have wrought.

Good luck,

Judy Garland

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