Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Proposals for legislation and discussions of these

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Patroklus Murakami
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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Some recent posts have generated more heat than light!

Lam, Cadence: I don't believe in 'guilt by association' so I don't think your proposal should be dismissed because of the company you keep (or are perceived to keep). As I hope I have made clear, I disagree with fundamental aspects of it for reasons of principle and a pragmatic concern for what will work. This is informed by the experience we had with the Judiciary Act and I'm keen not to repeat past mistakes.

That said, you are trying honestly to deal with a real problem and it's one we have endured for several years. Let me give you an example, I was LRA a couple of times in the past. In my last term as LRA I felt I had to leave halfway through because I just could not face the harassment and hostility of a number of RA members in and out of meetings. In RL I had no answer to my partner when he asked "Why are you doing something which is making you so upset? Isn't this supposed to be fun?" So, I resigned and continued my Second Life here as an ordinary citizen. I felt at the time that there was something deeply wrong with a community which fails to defend people against trolling, griefing and harassment. This is why I have wondered on my blog what an open society like the CDS can do to protect itself against people who come here to cause drama or just can't help themselves because of a personality disorder. The risk is that we lose what makes us an open society in the process and become a clique which only accepts in 'people who think and behave like we do'.

The view I've come to is that the only sanctions available to us are social ones. We have to express our disapproval of this kind of behaviour and cut off from the people who persist with it. Attention, whether this is positive or negative, is what is craved and without this I hope they will disappear and find some other outlet for their problems.

We do have a special situation here in that it is possible, if you have lots of free time to spend in world and sufficient funds, to buy up land and reserve it for your friends and then use them as a voting base to achieve one or two seats in the RA. This then makes the RA less effective as an institution. For these situations I have recommended a reform to land sales to make this more difficult and the right to recall RA members so incompetent, disruptive or simply absent RA members can be kicked out.

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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Spider22997 »

To manipulate a government to fulfill one’s own agenda is wrong.

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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Spider22997 »

I think your idea to “recommend a reform to land sales to make this more difficult and the right to recall RA members so incompetent, disruptive or absent RA members can be kicked out” is on the right track.

This deals with the problem in a direct mannor with no hidden agenda.

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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Lam Erin »

Spider22997 wrote:

To manipulate a government to fulfill one’s own agenda is wrong.

Who is manipulating the government? So the CDS government is comprised of incompetent stupid people who are subject to manipulation by a single person..Good..I hope they will be happy to hear that...

"To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often". Winston Churchill
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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Cadence Theas »

Spider, can you explain to all of us in very clear terms without unsubstantiated innuendos exactly WHAT is the hidden agenda. You keep referring to it, but at no point have you explained exactly what you perceive that agenda to be.

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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Lam Erin »

The Grievance Committee was a proposal of Cadence. I decided to join the idea because I believed it would help make CDS a better place. Since Cadence does not want to continue any more I will do the same...

Also in light of the paranoia I have seen in some people I decided that it is not worth being member of this funny place called cds of obsessed maniacs.

I will put my land for sale and when sales are completed I will leave cds altogether.

"To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often". Winston Churchill
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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Spider22997 »

Well Cadence you have my full permission to post here your IM's that you have sent to me and also any I have sent to you, your first ever IM arrived at my door yesterday. I am sure that this will explain the hidden agenda in detail. Your IM's will put the hidden agenda in full light.

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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Cadence Theas »

Spider, your posting is a rather pathetic attempt at setting up a smokescreen, and only demonstrates a total poverty in your ability to think.

I am going to lay out step by step in simple language why your posting is pathetic so maybe you will understand why it won’t work.

1) I am not going to show the IMs, nor give permission to do so, because I speak badly about some people in CDS and I do not want to or like to intentionally hurt anyone.

2) You think you can create an illusion of a conspiracy referring to completely irrelevant IMs, so that the rest of CDS thinks I am a puppet of, or author of a huge conspiracy.

3) The people I know and care about in CDS know exactly where I stand, and the transparency with which I act in CDS. If others want to follow your simple fantasy, then they will be in good company.

4) I asked you, Spider, specifically, what evidence you have for a hidden agenda. And, you can’t do it. You have no evidence, you can’t argue your point from your perspective in your own words.

Unless you can provide solid evidence of the conspiracy or hidden agenda, I consider this thread, or at least my participation in it, closed.

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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Spider22997 »

Well once again I will say... Well Cadence you have my full permission to post here your IM's that you have sent to me and also any I have sent to you, your first ever IM arrived at my door yesterday. I am sure that this will explain the hidden agenda in detail. Your IM's will put the hidden agenda in full light.

Cadence you can put the IM's here and delete the names, simple as that..

don’t keep asking for the answer when you have already given it. wink

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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by AbbyRose »

:roll: As I first stated in forums, before I was provoked and went "running down the street ranting", that I will not speak unless I have something to say. I am so sick of the FEW PEOPLE at CDS "blowing smoke", talking about private ims that do NOT exist, hidden agendas that do NOT exist, taking pictures that should be private and posting them to other sites out of context, etc.. Who are you people and why do you want CDS to fail?
Cadence and Lam spent hours working on the bylaws for a grievance committee. Give them credit for their effort and time. It was a draft. If one has a problem with a section of it, state what and why. Do NOT attack them personally.
I personally don't think there should be a need for a Grievance Committee. In my years in SL, I have NEVER had problems with neighbors or people I have met, until I move to CDS. Those people I have had (weird and uncalled) problems with, I found out about in these forums, and was attacked here based on my opinions that did not agree with theirs. It certainly was nothing I had done in SL, and I still welcome LL to review all chat logs, etc..
It does appear that there is a handful of people here, out of the 70 plus people who do get along, that want to bully/pick on one person at a time
until that person raises their arms in frustration and leaves.
WE ARE NOT LEAVING.
I back Cadence and Lam for their effort with this committee. I back Bagheera, Rosie Gray, Sudane, and Cadance for their efforts with the redesign of LA.
It's about time the other 70 plus people here come out and take a stand and stand together.

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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Garnet Psaltery »

AbbyRose wrote:

I am so sick of the FEW PEOPLE at CDS "blowing smoke", talking about private ims that do NOT exist, hidden agendas that do NOT exist, taking pictures that should be private and posting them to other sites out of context, etc.. Who are you people and why do you want CDS to fail?

You're doing a good job of blowing smoke yourself. What people? How do you know those IMs don't exist? I could say something about agendas but it's already been said. Pictures that should be private? Which ones, where? Who wants CDS to fail? No-one I know. I certainly wouldn't want to be in a Seraph City situation.

AbbyRose wrote:

It does appear that there is a handful of people here, out of the 70 plus people who do get along, that want to bully/pick on one person at a time
until that person raises their arms in frustration and leaves.

Oh right, like harassing Vic and Lia and their guests. Yes, that's pretty low.

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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Bromo Ivory »

Oh my, Garnet, you just can't help reflexively attacking me with Seraph City in trying to accuse someone else of harassement. I think you are making Abby's point for her, aren't you, with that? Or did I miss something? ;-)

Don't make enemies unless you have a good reason, dearie. While you haven't hurt my feelings, I certainly did take notice of the attempt to throw mud and shrapnel indescriminately in my general direction in the midst of an argument that has little to do with me at this point.

Though if the grievance committee ever were to form in a fit of poor judgement of the RA, I suppose it wouldn't be that difficult to find at least one person as a test case for trolling, hmmm?

Garnet Psaltery wrote:
AbbyRose wrote:

I am so sick of the FEW PEOPLE at CDS "blowing smoke", talking about private ims that do NOT exist, hidden agendas that do NOT exist, taking pictures that should be private and posting them to other sites out of context, etc.. Who are you people and why do you want CDS to fail?

You're doing a good job of blowing smoke yourself. What people? How do you know those IMs don't exist? I could say something about agendas but it's already been said. Pictures that should be private? Which ones, where? Who wants CDS to fail? No-one I know. I certainly wouldn't want to be in a Seraph City situation.

AbbyRose wrote:

It does appear that there is a handful of people here, out of the 70 plus people who do get along, that want to bully/pick on one person at a time
until that person raises their arms in frustration and leaves.

Oh right, like harassing Vic and Lia and their guests. Yes, that's pretty low.

==
"Nenia peno nek provo donos lakton de bovo."

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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Garnet Psaltery »

Bromo Ivory wrote:

Oh my, Garnet, you just can't help reflexively attacking me with Seraph City in trying to accuse someone else of harassement. I think you are making Abby's point for her, aren't you, with that? Or did I miss something? ;-)

Don't make enemies unless you have a good reason, dearie. While you haven't hurt my feelings, I certainly did take notice of the attempt to throw mud and shrapnel indescriminately in my general direction in the midst of an argument that has little to do with me at this point.

Though if the grievance committee ever were to form in a fit of poor judgement of the RA, I suppose it wouldn't be that difficult to find at least one person as a test case for trolling, hmmm?

What? No, Bromo, I'm actually sad about Seraph City closing and would hate to see the same thing happen to CDS*. I'm not throwing anything at you. You're providing your own mud and tossing it in the air yourself, dearie.

Don't threaten me. It's a waste of air.

* Some pictures I took of Seraph City. http://www.flickr.com/photos/garnetpsal ... 814659385/ Note: No-one is forced to look if they don't want to.

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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by Bromo Ivory »

I hope I have mischaracterized you. And no threat intended, if you took it as one, I do apologize for that. You comments regarding Seraph were so out of the blue it was difficult NOT to think it was a weak sideswipe attempt.

Serpah City closing was a very difficult decision, though I would say that CDS doesn't have many lessons to learn from it - the main reaosn is that while eveyone "loved the build" and a lot fo folks suddenly "love it" now, nobody was really wanting to make it their SL home enough to keep a community flowing through it. It was going to take a lot of time, money and effort to rebuild the SIM as well (the buildings were not transferred to me when I took over the SIM and "saved" it from being shut down previously, the original owner was so quick to leave SL, and the other buildings were owned by the main LM, who refused to transfer even a copy to an alt I was allocating for that purpose). I would have happily done all of that, if I felt people cared enough to form a community around it, but in the 6 months I owned it, I didn't get any sort of sign or indication of that. If you have been there recently, you may have noticed the Hawksmoor Apartments went missing. As I was cleaning up after some "unauthorized building" I accidentally deleted about half of it. I returned the rest, and asked Edward Pearse (the owner of the building) to replace it. I have not heard from him reagrding a few attempts to reach him, though I did read of him expressing surprise and dismay at it having gone missing. *shrug*

So the "lessons learned" from Seraph?
1. Always, always, always own the public builds in a SIM so that it can be reconstructed in a short order in case of trouble.
2. When you parcel the land, make sure that after rental it either makes a profit, breaks even, or leaves you with an amount you feel is comfortable paying in indefinitely.
3. Your residents are your lifeblood. If you do not have a community of excited, enthusiastic people who are not only willing to attend and contribute socially to events, sometimes just like hanging out in the SIM, you are essentially dead.
4. A beautiful build is not enough to do #3.

CDS has 1-4 covered VERY well, which explains much of its longevity. It really has nothing to learn from Seraph, and is in no real danger of dying.

I would challenge everyone who is "saddened" at Seraph's closing, that the "love of it" was always at arm's length, and I kept it open thinking somehow I could turn all that goodwill at the first threat of closing into a rebirth. I wasn't able to do it, because in the end, nobody loved it enough to turn it into THEIR community. I could have expensded the money, time and effort to fix 1,2 and 4 if "we" could have swung #3...

So ... when I accused you of ignorance, too, it weas because what eventually made me decide to close Seraph, is a problem that CDS will never face.

Garnet Psaltery wrote:
Bromo Ivory wrote:

Oh my, Garnet, you just can't help reflexively attacking me with Seraph City in trying to accuse someone else of harassement. I think you are making Abby's point for her, aren't you, with that? Or did I miss something? ;-)

Don't make enemies unless you have a good reason, dearie. While you haven't hurt my feelings, I certainly did take notice of the attempt to throw mud and shrapnel indescriminately in my general direction in the midst of an argument that has little to do with me at this point.

Though if the grievance committee ever were to form in a fit of poor judgement of the RA, I suppose it wouldn't be that difficult to find at least one person as a test case for trolling, hmmm?

What? No, Bromo, I'm actually sad about Seraph City closing and would hate to see the same thing happen to CDS*. I'm not throwing anything at you. You're providing your own mud and tossing it in the air yourself, dearie.

Don't threaten me. It's a waste of air.

* Some pictures I took of Seraph City. http://www.flickr.com/photos/garnetpsal ... 814659385/ Note: No-one is forced to look if they don't want to.

==
"Nenia peno nek provo donos lakton de bovo."

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Re: Draft Legislation for a Grievance Committee

Post by cleopatraxigalia »

Applause to the efforts of everyone on the grievance committee, and wonderful to see so many interested citizens speak up, this is what makes CDS wonderful, we have a problem, and people get together to try to solve it. I hope the below helps and is not redundant. But after a conversation with someone today who was asking these questions, I thought I might post this in order to clarify some of the remedies we already have in CDS.

Please feel free to add more or clarify...

There are rules on these forums that we are to always abide by.. the SC is to enforce them. It is their duty.. they go like this :

http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16

one of the most important points is this forum moderation is in my opinion:

3.5: When disagreeing with another poster make sure that your response takes issue with the arguments rather than with the person behind them. Abuse and personal attacks will not be tolerated.

also note this :

6.2: Abusing the forums by addressing issues that are a simple dispute between two parties. These matters should be solved by contacting directly the individuals in question and in cases where this fails to bring a resolution the matter should be brought before the SC for arbitration.

There are also rules about being in-world in CDS.. if you have a true problem with someone in CDS then file a case against them with the Scientific Council. They will decide whether to hear your case and make a ruling.

Covenant Violations should be handled by the Chancellor of CDS

http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4272

The Scientific Council is to do the below, among other things:

The Scientific Council is an integral component of the C.D.S. democracy. Members of this body are responsible for ensuring that the actions of the C.D.S. government, as well as citizens and non-citizens alike do not violate the C.D.S. Constitution, the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights, or our founding philosophies. As part of this responsibility, the Scientific Council is responsible for moderating the C.D.S. forums to ensure conversations remain civil and avoid libelous or overtly inflammatory statements.

Report violations you think need attention to the SC.

Cleo
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