Suggestion for By-election rules

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Gwyneth Llewelyn
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Re: Suggestion for By-election rules

Post by Gwyneth Llewelyn »

When I proposed the "automatic" procedure to fill vacant seats, I was mostly considering how some countries actually deal with the issue, and the best example that comes to mind is the US, where the President, when resigning or stepping down for some reason (sadly, being murdered is a rather frequent one!), is simply replaced by the Vice-President, until the next term elections come up. Other countries go for by-elections instead.

RL parliaments are handled differently thing, because iRL they have dozens or even hundreds of members, so vacant seats can just remain vacant, without a substantial difference. But of course if, say, a third of the representatives would resign, in the countries where such power is invested in the Executive or a similar branch, I'm pretty sure that parliament would be dissolved and new elections called for. This is what happens in our case, since we have such a small RA: one member resigning means 20% of voting ability being removed from the RA, so it justifies by-elections.

The problem is that representatives resigning/getting removed from office/dying is a relatively rare situation iRL, so by-elections, as an extraordinary procedure, is a valid mechanism. In our case, however, resignation is a frequent event, even in short time spans of just 6 months. That's why I would prefer a more "automatic" procedure — because we might be completely prevented from actually doing some 'governing' otherwise!

For instance, this term was a huge deception. After half the term had elapsed, we had to deal with a by-election, and, once that was over — with the RA and Executive basically stopping their activities, the RA now has to deal with an absent LRA (Shep is moving iRL), and is further prevented from meeting. The term will surely end before we have actually done anything worthwhile. I'm not blaming people in particular (or I would have first to blame myself!), but I'm concerned that replacing members of government with a super-complicated procedure will delay everything so much as to turn the democratic process impractical! And that scares me!

I had also missed Bromo's point that the RA cannot work if there is no Chancellor, because the Chancellor has veto powers over legislation, and a lack of a Chancellor means that the RA has to wait for a Chancellor to be put into office again. Geez. This is tough!

I'd be fine with most of Bromo's suggestion but get rid of the 'cooling off' period, I'm also assuming that members of Government 'cool off' before they submit their resignation, not after.

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Rosie Gray
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Re: Suggestion for By-election rules

Post by Rosie Gray »

Gwyneth Llewelyn wrote:

The problem is that representatives resigning/getting removed from office/dying is a relatively rare situation iRL, so by-elections, as an extraordinary procedure, is a valid mechanism. In our case, however, resignation is a frequent event, even in short time spans of just 6 months. That's why I would prefer a more "automatic" procedure — because we might be completely prevented from actually doing some 'governing' otherwise!

For instance, this term was a huge deception. After half the term had elapsed, we had to deal with a by-election, and, once that was over — with the RA and Executive basically stopping their activities, the RA now has to deal with an absent LRA (Shep is moving iRL), and is further prevented from meeting. The term will surely end before we have actually done anything worthwhile. I'm not blaming people in particular (or I would have first to blame myself!), but I'm concerned that replacing members of government with a super-complicated procedure will delay everything so much as to turn the democratic process impractical! And that scares me!

I had also missed Bromo's point that the RA cannot work if there is no Chancellor, because the Chancellor has veto powers over legislation, and a lack of a Chancellor means that the RA has to wait for a Chancellor to be put into office again. Geez. This is tough!

I'd be fine with most of Bromo's suggestion but get rid of the 'cooling off' period, I'm also assuming that members of Government 'cool off' before they submit their resignation, not after.

I completely agree with you that a more 'automatic' procedure should be considered, given our short time spans. This is why I like Calli's By-Election Procedures Act Draft found here: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4398

As to Bromo's point about the RA not being able to work if there is no Chancellor, I'm not quite sure that's true. It may be true that the Chancellor has veto powers over legislation, but there is a lot of other work that the RA can do that doesn't involve changing legislation or that leads up to changing legislation.

By-the-way, Shep is back online as of yesterday! :)

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Re: Suggestion for By-election rules

Post by Gwyneth Llewelyn »

Rosie Gray wrote:

As to Bromo's point about the RA not being able to work if there is no Chancellor, I'm not quite sure that's true. It may be true that the Chancellor has veto powers over legislation, but there is a lot of other work that the RA can do that doesn't involve changing legislation or that leads up to changing legislation.

Oh, like hearing reports from the Chancellor, from committees and such, but not actually making any decision? Well, that's a thought, and I guess you're right. What other things can the RA do besides enacting legislation?

Rosie Gray wrote:

By-the-way, Shep is back online as of yesterday! :)

Yay! I'd hate to invoke the 'temporary LRA' procedure to deal with her absence! It's much better to know that her move iRL was successful and she's back :)

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Re: Suggestion for By-election rules

Post by Bromo Ivory »

Rosie Gray wrote:
Gwyneth Llewelyn wrote:

As to Bromo's point about the RA not being able to work if there is no Chancellor, I'm not quite sure that's true. It may be true that the Chancellor has veto powers over legislation, but there is a lot of other work that the RA can do that doesn't involve changing legislation or that leads up to changing legislation.

You make a good point. In the portions of the RA's work that doesn't involve going past the Chancellor's Veto, there is nothing to stop them.

The core of my assertion that without a Chancellor, you cannot pass legislation was based upon the Constitution is silent on the subject, so anything passed would fall with in the real world legal term "Consitutional Crisis" - since there is no "if the RA passes a law and there is no sitting Chancellor, here is you set of instructions" either written into the constitution, or any sort of tradition that could be construed as such. It is a bit of a hole, and I actually praise Shep as LRA and the rest of the RA members for showing the restraint of real world statepeople! I'd challenge them to find a way to fill the hole if they could, since given the nature of SL and CDS, that frustrations will cuase people to quit posts with more regularity than in RL (since resigning in RL will usually mean forgoing an income, too, and in SL it generally only means more free time and sometimes hurt feelings)

Oh, and about the "cooling off" period ... I agree that it shouldn't be needed.

Last edited by Anonymous on Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Suggestion for By-election rules

Post by Delia Lake »

I agree that the RA should still be able to meet, to work on legislation and policies, conduct reviews, establish committees and many other duties even if there is no Chancellor.

I do not think that we need a cooling off period built into a Chancellor resignation. I would certainly hope that any elected Chancellor who decides to resign would have thought it through completely previous to handing in a resignation. If the person had not, then IMO that person would not be someone I would want as Chancellor anyway.

I also feel strongly that any Chancellor who resigns during the term of office should be barred from running in the by-election. As stated in other posts above, the term is only six months. Leaving the CDS without a functioning Exec office for any period of time during that short a term is a burden on the whole community. Resignation in this case should not be used as a "vote of confidence" within a term this short. That is what we have frequent elections for in the first place, that and allowing people to participate in government without committing to an unduly long period of duty each term.

If a Chancellor isn't getting the kind of participation and support the person expected, then my suggestion is that the Chancellor hold more public discussion meetings with citizens, not one meeting but a number of them at different times to accommodate the rl schedules of people. It could be that the citizens don't understand the proposed policies or actions, or it could be that they just don't like what the Chancellor proposed and the Chancellor needs to make modifications/changes in what he or she is doing. I'm sure everyone can think of other scenarios that fit here as well. If the Chancellor just can't work with the citizens then yes that Chancellor can resign, for the good of the community.

There are many good reasons why a Chancellor might resign. Looking for a vote of confidence isn't one of them.

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Re: Suggestion for By-election rules

Post by Gwyneth Llewelyn »

Well! Postponing the RA meetings until there is a Chancellor holding office is the kind of thing that involves 'the honourable thing to do'!

Technically, nothing 'prevents' the RA to meet and vote on legislation. The Chancellor has a set period of time (just like the SC, in fact) to flag a law for review and approval; if they don't, the law automatically passes. I can't say how much time that actually is, because I forgot, and I believe it's not on the forums, but it should be something between 24-72 hours.

What this means is that a RA in session without a Chancellor to flag laws for review (and eventual veto) would be able to pass whatever legislation they wish. Well, so long as it's constitutional — the SC has, after all, a saying too. The difference is that the Chancellor is allowed to veto any law (except the ones removing them from office), while the SC can only veto based on constitutional grounds.

So, it would be 'unpolite' for a RA, knowing that there is no Chancellor, meet and start passing all sorts of laws. It wouldn't be 'illegal' — they could certainly do it without reprimands — but it wouldn't be 'nice'.

Still, holding sessions without making decisions, or postponing the final voting to a subsequent session, might be considered acceptable.

Regarding the issue of the 'vote of confidence' as a reason for resignation, I have to admit that you have persuaded me to drop that argument. I have to agree with you, it's not a valid enough reason for resignation. So I'll happy to agree with forbidding a resigned Chancellor to run on its own by-election.

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Re: Suggestion for By-election rules

Post by Bromo Ivory »

Gwyneth Llewelyn wrote:

So, it would be 'unpolite' for a RA, knowing that there is no Chancellor, meet and start passing all sorts of laws. It wouldn't be 'illegal' — they could certainly do it without reprimands — but it wouldn't be 'nice'.

Still, holding sessions without making decisions, or postponing the final voting to a subsequent session, might be considered acceptable.

It actually precipitates a good old fashioned "Consitutional Crisis" since it is unclear how the legislative process would work when the laws haven't passed through all the steps normally required for them to be laws. (And those sort of Crises aren't people running around in a panic, though it can involve that (lol), but it just means the body of laws and rules do not cover the situation a government finds itself in. No precedent, and no law.

I would challenge the RA to find a way to fill in that blank spot - so the business of government could continue without a question.

I honestly think that since we've weathered through this storm, and it would be nice to figure out how we could do even better in the next one!

(And I am very happy the RA did the honorable thing, as Gwyn put it!)

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Re: Suggestion for By-election rules

Post by Bromo Ivory »

Gwyneth Llewelyn wrote:

Ideally, I would prefer an "automatic" system to handle vacant seats. The reasoning behind that is that in SL, unlike RL, rotativity is always high.

Calli's proposal certainly addressed that — when a seat in the RA is vacated, the software to determine seats via STV from the previous election is simply run again, as often as necessary, and each person selected is asked if they wish to serve. If none accept, then — and only then — by-elections are called. A similar suggestion is made for the Chancellor.

I missed this!

I like that idea quite a lot since it doesn't do a re-poll. But you could also look into the STV rankings and hold the names of the people who would be the next in line in reserve.

Given the length of our terms, and the length of elections, if someone resigns, you could burn up quite a lot fo time in by elections. I'd love for something more seamless. (This is one of the strengths of the "faction" system - if someone were to leave, it would be up to the faction to supply the replacement since it is the faction that will be winning the seats. But I suspect we could come up with something similar that would work nearly as well like Calli's proposal)

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Re: Suggestion for By-election rules

Post by Gwyneth Llewelyn »

I would also prefer to re-instate factions :) (it's part of my manifesto for this term, after all hehe) — but I also realize that it's rather silly to use the 'pretext' to deal with by-elections as an argument for re-instating factions (there are far better arguments for that, in fact). Instead, I'm all for Calli's suggestion. It's transparent — the votes from the STV system are published after an election, anyone can simulate STV again for themselves and figure out who would be next in the order of seats, in case any becomes vacant. The order of filling vacant seats has been determined by universal suffrage, and citizens are aware of who had ran for the previous elections and what their platforms are. I'd say Calli's proposal would fit quite well as a good example of how democratic methods should be applied to selecting candidates!

However, there is a catch worth considering: this allows (just like the faction system, in fact) to 'game' the system by presenting a popular, charismatic candidate for the main elections, who can then vacate their seat and give the opportunity of a 'less desirable' candidate to be put in office. STV works a bit against that, though, because while often first options are relatively easy to figure out in such a small community, second and third choices are often a surprise, meaning that anyone trying to 'game' the election system in order to push for 'less desirable' candidates might be in for a big surprise (the faction system was quite more clear in that regard, since people would know the list of candidates for each faction and know exactly who would be next in turn on the list in case a seat for that faction became vacant). This means that this system would be 'less predictable' but far more democratic, in the sense that all candidates, seated or not, had been ranked according to each citizen's own preference list.

In fact, having given this some thought — and barring the re-instatement of factions! — I personally cannot see a better system to be put in place right now. There are alternatives, but all of them require more setup, more confusion, more arcane rules. Calli's proposal is simple to understand, doesn't require anything (except running the STV algorithm again, which can be done by anyone!), is totally transparent and democratic, and, while it might give rise to some 'surprises', these have at least the backing of the citizen's votes on the election for the term. So I'm fully supportive of implementing it! It'll be on my list of bills to propose for the next RA session, as soon as Shep is able to manage to set the next date for it :)

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Re: Suggestion for By-election rules

Post by cleopatraxigalia »

Gwyn..

there was some group chatter about an RA meeting being set up for sometime on this Thursday not sure if that was confirmed but I think a doodle was going to go out. Meeting should be very soon.
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Re: Suggestion for By-election rules

Post by Gwyneth Llewelyn »

I'm so glad to hear that :) Even though I hope it's not this coming weekend, because I will be off both on Saturday and Sunday :-P

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