RA Meeting 22 November 2009: Transcript

[Cindy Ecksol]

Cindy Ecksol: wow, the IM's are flying already.
Cindy Ecksol: please click the recorder to indicate consent to be recorded...
Pip Torok: gd evening all!..
Micael Khandr has indicated consent to be recorded.
Joaquin Gustav has indicated consent to be recorded.
Lilith Ivory: Hi Rose
Wasp Thor has indicated consent to be recorded.
Rose Springvale: hi Lil
Pip Torok has indicated consent to be recorded.
Carolyn Saarinen has indicated consent to be recorded.
Wasp Thor: Hi Rose
Rose Springvale: Hi Wasp
Arria Perreault: Hi Rose
Soro Dagostino has indicated consent to be recorded.
Rose Springvale: hi Arria
Arria Perreault: Hi Jeroma
Jeroma Wycliffe: Arria
Cindy Ecksol: we're waiting for a few more....
Pip Torok: hi Gwyn!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hellO!
Lilith Ivory: Hi Gwyn
Cindy Ecksol: morning gwyn. please touch recorder to indicate consent. agenda is in the urn as usual.
Gwyneth Llewelyn has indicated consent to be recorded.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gosh, i wish I had more time...
Rose Springvale has indicated consent to be recorded.
Arria Perreault: Hi Gwyn
Cindy Ecksol: gosh, me too
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi Arria...
Jamie Palisades smiles, Don't we all. It's all about what you choose to spend it on, eh? ":P"
Cindy Ecksol: ok, I think we're ready to go. please look at the agenda. this is continued from last session, so we will have an abbreviated first part
Carolyn Saarinen: Let's have a sweepstake on when the sim crashes
Jamie Palisades: sorry, agenda's where?
Jamie Palisades: amphora? didnt see post
Cindy Ecksol: in the amphora -- same agenda as last time
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hi, Jamie, btw, and, yes, you're right, I'm wasting too much time sleeping )
Carolyn Saarinen: Sleep when you're dead Gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You're right! Plenty of time then!
Arria Perreault has indicated consent to be recorded.
Cindy Ecksol: any changes to the agenda?
Jamie Palisades: kk thx
Carolyn Saarinen: Let's sing the Euro SL anthem +8 +9!
Jamie Palisades: Cin, if it's not a wrench, I could profitably make two brief announcements (a mini report) at some point.
Cindy Ecksol: ok, will do that up front
Cindy Ecksol: anything else?
Cindy Ecksol: or motion to approve?
Pip Torok: seconded
Cindy Ecksol: lol!
Carolyn Saarinen: Sheesh, motion. let the man talk
Jamie Palisades: approve what? agenda? did you see my request for a 3 minute addition?
Pip Torok: (sorry)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd love to propose a small amendment to Jamie's bill as an alternative, but this might be done under point III b. I guess
Cindy Ecksol: agenda....yes I did and added it.
Cindy Ecksol: guess i have less lag than you jamie, sorry....
Arria Perreault: where is the agenda?
Cindy Ecksol: Gwyn, hold that thought...we'll get to it
Jamie Palisades: kk thx - didn't hear anything on it, Could be
Cindy Ecksol: agenda (as usual) in the urn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Cindy
Pip Torok: in the amphora Arria
Rose Springvale: (just added a new citizen )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yay Rose!)
Wasp Thor: is that a jar?
Wasp Thor: hehehe
Carolyn Saarinen: Indoctrinate him now Rose!
Cindy Ecksol: ok, so we have Jamie's 3 minutes added....
Cindy Ecksol: I believe Pip heard that when he moved to approve the agenda....can I have a second?
Pip Torok: second
Carolyn Saarinen: second
Cindy Ecksol: lol!
Cindy Ecksol: ok, great.
Cindy Ecksol: all in favor?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
Pip Torok: (not my day!)
Carolyn Saarinen: we're 12b minutes in already. let's go
Pip Torok: aye
Carolyn Saarinen: aye
Joaquin Gustav: aye
Micael Khandr: aye
Arria Perreault: aye
Cindy Ecksol: ok, great.
Soro Dagostino: aye
Cindy Ecksol: next meeting...December 6.
Wasp Thor: aye
Cindy Ecksol: I have had a request to change the time of our meetings.
Wasp Thor: is her amendment the issue for us
Cindy Ecksol: to later in the day....
Carolyn Saarinen: what time?
Cindy Ecksol: I had in mind something like 12p
Soro Dagostino: I am unable to make Sunday afternoon meetings.
Cindy Ecksol: ah, right! I KNEW there was a reason we made them earlier...
Gwyneth Llewelyn is fine with 12 PM
Micael Khandr: Do you need a motion for discussion
Rose Springvale: hi imo
Imotali Antiesse: hi Rose
Pip Torok is fine with 12pm
Imotali Antiesse: Hi everybody
Imotali's translator: Hi Rose
Imotali's translator: ?Hola a todos
Micael Khandr: I'm fine, too--but do you need a motion, Cindy?
Carolyn Saarinen: I'm cool with later, but I'm SLT +8 - just for information
Cindy Ecksol: I will need a motion to approve the time Micael
Cindy Ecksol: would you like to make it?
Micael Khandr: I so move
Cindy Ecksol: second?
Pip Torok: seconded
Arria Perreault: 12 pm: in europ?
Arria Perreault: 9 AM?
Cindy Ecksol: all in favor of 12pm SLT for our next meeting (dec 6)
Pip Torok: is 8pm in uk 9am in germany
Jamie Palisades: :/ i think that's 8 pm, 20h00 Arria
Micael Khandr: aye
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 20h00 UK time
Jamie Palisades: thx
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And aye from me...
Carolyn Saarinen: So 8pm GMT?
Arria Perreault: pm or am?
Carolyn Saarinen: aye
Pip Torok: pm
Cindy Ecksol: yes, Caro.
Arria Perreault: ty
Cindy Ecksol: noon SLT....2000 GMT
Arria Perreault: aye (with coffe, I hope)
Pip Torok: aye
Cindy Ecksol: wasp?
Cindy Ecksol: joa?
Wasp Thor: aye
Cindy Ecksol: Soro?
Cindy Ecksol: ok, I vote aye also...
Wasp Thor: I sorry..
Wasp Thor: I'm Sorry!
Soro Dagostino: nay
Joaquin Gustav: i cant I play at 12 pm , but on dec 6th i cant be here even at 9am
Soro Dagostino: This will be my last meeting.
Joaquin Gustav: sory i cant meet is the verb
Cindy Ecksol: ok,
Cindy Ecksol: motion has carried. we have 8 present, all absent have asked for 7 day votes.
Carolyn Saarinen: maybe we need to vary to give folk a chance to be here sometimes
Cindy Ecksol: I'm ok with that and will ask about time each meeting from now on.
Cindy Ecksol: remind me if I forget.
Carolyn Saarinen: Any fixed time inconveniences someone
Cindy Ecksol: Soro cannot do afternoons....
Cindy Ecksol: I'm sure others have issues also.
Cindy Ecksol: moving on.....
Cindy Ecksol: Jamie, your report?
Jamie Palisades: thanks, two quick items
Carolyn Saarinen: wake up!
Jamie Palisades: `heh
Jamie Palisades: 1. Big changes coming to commercial land. I am aware of several major changes in the offering from our citiazens which I haven't been told I can to disclose yet. Watch for forum posting early next week. This probably will create issues that will need to be addressed next meeting.
Jamie Palisades: Not trying to be mysterious. I just want people to be aware that I expect some big land shifts. I could be wrong, but we'll need to pay attention.
Jamie Palisades: ...
Jamie Palisades: 2. I read over the RA transacript from last week. I don't think I handled by part of that debate well, so I'd like to ofder my apolgizes. While I stand by my underlying concerns entirely -- my frustrations in getting progress done are trempting me to react emotionally. That doesn't help.
Arria Perreault: link?
Jamie Palisades: CDS policy ought to be addressed in a generally respectful and constructive tone. Whether or not one is enforced, each participant ought to bring that voluntarily. CDS deserves this, and speaking only for myself, I didn't acheive it at the last meeting. So, my apologies to the group,
Jamie Palisades: Thanks, that's it.
Jamie Palisades: was that a question, Arria?
Jamie Palisades: NOthign has been posted yet as there's no information yet.
Arria Perreault: the link to transcript
Arria Perreault: ok
Jamie Palisades: Just rumblings some of our, ah, longtimers
Wasp Thor: is the land shift LL inspired?
Jamie Palisades: thx, done
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Gwyneth Llewelyn
Jamie Palisades: No Waso this is about what our ctizens chosoe to do - and where
Cindy Ecksol: gwyn, you have the floor
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll be short, I would also like to apologise (mostly to Jamie) for my display of stubbornness twi weeks ago,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: which might also have wasted some time of the RA meetings, and thus the apologies ought to be to all of you.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the good news is that we managed to talk about the issues after the RA meeting, in peace and quiet, and hopefully we'll have a common ground to get some approvals done today.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks, that's all!
Cindy Ecksol: thanks to both jamie and gwyn.
Cindy Ecksol: Rose, do you have a quick status report on the regional commissions? I know AA met...not sure about the other two
Rose Springvale: that's not my job, i am sure jamie does
Cindy Ecksol: jamie?
Jamie Palisades: first two met, so far so good, probably will have a scomplete set of recommendations by your next mtg
Cindy Ecksol: (sorry rose)
Cindy Ecksol: ok, thanks!
Cindy Ecksol: all right...
Cindy Ecksol: old business....
Cindy Ecksol: we have a suspended discussion about the land pricing
Cindy Ecksol: you should all have a card with the current proposal
Cindy Ecksol: I'd like to recognize Gwyn first as I believe she would like to propose an amendment
Cindy Ecksol: Gwyn, you have the floor
Jamie Palisades: sorry, Card? did nonRA membes get something?
Cindy Ecksol: in the urn, Jamie
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yes, we did, Jamie ?? your proposal is in the urn)
Jamie Palisades: ty
Cindy Ecksol: or the "amphora"
Cindy Ecksol: if you prefer
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks... it's not too hard to explain, but perhaps you might benefit from some reasoning behind the suggested amendment.
Wasp Thor: the jar
Carolyn Saarinen: Yes, it is an amphora
Cindy Ecksol:
Carolyn Saarinen: picky picky
Cindy Ecksol: (gwyn has the floor)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You might have noticed that the major issue the CSDF (and some non-aligned citizens in the forums) had with the proposal,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: was the issue about "free land"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So the idea is mostly to still give a huge incentive,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but not make land automtically worth L$0, and that as a price set by Government ? a bad move in our opinion
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, here is the suggestion,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Instead of making the land price L$0,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: let's make it "first X months free"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Politically, what this means is that land still has some value, the same as listed on the current "default" price list (even if we don't disagree with changing those prices)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: From the perspective of the buyer, it's the same thing. Say that land is listed for L$10000 and tier costs are L$2500. They would get the first four months free.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: From the perspective of accounting ? e.g. how this actually ties into the current system that manages the land tier ? I'll leave the details to Sudane and the Exec
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the important thing for us is that "land price will not be shown as zero" ? even though we can all agree that the end result would be exactly the same thing.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, concrete amendment proposal...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We have point 1. with "price of L$0" and point 2. with "shall pay two months of rent"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd suggest that both points would be merged in something like this:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1. Any parcel of land that is re-sold by CDS, after CDS repossesses it, will have a number of free months of tier equivalent to the listed L$ price, divided by the usual monthly fee
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll shut up for now to let you discuss what best wording should be worked out to make it clear what the buyer is supposed to pay
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks, that's all.
Cindy Ecksol: gwyn, before I ask for a second, would you like to make it more concrete by specifying "a number"?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cindy, I'm fine with a concrete number, yes
Cindy Ecksol: what number would that be?
Cindy Ecksol: (we can change in discussion if we need to)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd need an average of the ratio between land buying costs and monthly fee to answer that...
Carolyn Saarinen: blimey!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (in my example, I was assuming a 4:1 ratio)
Cindy Ecksol: ok....so could we say "four free months" for the purposes of the discussion?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: i.e. if the land price is, on average, four times the monthly fee, it'll get 4 free months
Soro Dagostino: I take it you volunteer to do the calculations for each sale?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: If that's a reasonable average, Cindy, I'd be fine with that.
Cindy Ecksol: I don't know if it is or not -- but we cannot be recalculating for every parcel, and we need a number.
Arria Perreault: an average number can be calculated by Sudane
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You mean, we cannot do a simple maths operation for each parcel? hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But yes, I'd be fine with an average number calculated by Sudane.
Cindy Ecksol: ok....
Cindy Ecksol: hold that thought....will you accept "4" for the purposes of starting discussion?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: If you wish, we could reword that with "a number of X months, X to be determined by the Executive/Treasurer" for instance. It would give them some flexibility that way.
Carolyn Saarinen: 'we' someone has to do it and alter the tier-payment boxes accordingly
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm fine with 4 anyway )
Cindy Ecksol: either way -- your amendment, you state it.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1. Any parcel of land that is re-sold by CDS, after CDS repossesses it, will have a number of free months of tier equivalent to the listed L$ price, to be determined by the Executive after consulting with the Treasurer.
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Cindy Ecksol: thank you.
Cindy Ecksol: is there a second?
Pip Torok: seconded
Arria Perreault: I second
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (Jamie's point 3 and 4 would remain like they are)
Cindy Ecksol: discussion. I believe Caro is first...
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Carolyn Saarinen
Carolyn Saarinen: Having read the forum discussion on this issue..
Carolyn Saarinen: I must say that I favour the simplest solution...
Carolyn Saarinen: The one that gets land sold, tier paid, and places least burden on our Civil Service volunteers...
Carolyn Saarinen: That, it appears to me, is Jamies original proposal...
Carolyn Saarinen: which, after all expires on 01/02/10 anyway.
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Micael Khandr
Cindy Ecksol: finished caro?
Carolyn Saarinen: yep
Cindy Ecksol: Mcael? you have the floor
Micael Khandr: Thanks, Cindy
Micael Khandr: I agree with what Caro has said . . in that . . .
Micael Khandr: If I understand Jamie?s proposal, it motivation is to bring new people in. New people need simple buy in, and $L0 is an approach to that: new people can probably handle the concept of monthly tier better. The discussion of ?number? illustrates the potential complexity. Simple works best . . .
If Jamie agrees with Gwyn?s amendment, then I?m fine. If he has concerns, then I think we as the RA should side with the one in charge of doing this?namely, the exec. This is best hadled by the person doing the selling. Not us. IMHO.
Micael Khandr: Done
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Jamie Palisades
Cindy Ecksol: Jamie?
Jamie Palisades: Hm Three things, I am afraid I must speak against the amendment. I offered [[an alternative]] on the forum boards which would solve the zero issue, but it;s less complex than this one. From a purely technical view - I THINK the suggestion is to leave all current list prices in effect, subject to current exceptions -- and simply grant free rent in an amount equal to the list price (So you start paying rent the month after you burn off the purchase price.)
Jamie Palisades: But I'm not posiutive about that. Having no language ready bothers me. In my view a genuine attempt to achieve legislation here today, not delay, almost surely would put drafted language on the table, after these weeks of debate.
Jamie Palisades: ...
Jamie Palisades: Second, I see two *substantive* problems, one of which is as Cindy suggested -- it;s more complex to administer for our volunteer Treasurer. Sudane or whatever other hapless. underappreciated soul might agree to it someday. You see, under Gwyn's plan, the number of free months is not always 4, it's the price divided by the monthly tier rent ... which means we get fractional remainders too. Uneven divisors.
Jamie Palisades: Thus under Gwyn's new legislative text just stated .. um, i THINK ..., a L$50000 parcel which rents for $15000/mo would get four AND A THIRD months of free rent. Bluntly, ick. Imagine running that system. Manual adjustments constantly.
Jamie Palisades: FInally and most serious -- this would leave the LIST price -- the topic of all land searches, and the first thing a shopper sees --at the currently repulsive high prices. I submit that this does not meet our goals at all. Also, at least at the abstract level, I am increasingly unfcomfortable with the degree to which some of our citizens both are competing with CDS and encouarging us to keep our prices high simultaneously. I call on the RA to put CDS interests first. *Our* first fiscal interest is not having low occupancy. Thanks.
Jamie Palisades: done
Cindy Ecksol: thanks.
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Callipygian Christensen
Cindy Ecksol: Calli? you have the floor
Callipygian Christensen: I do not own land so speak as an interested observer. This appears to say that I can 'purchase' a piece of land by giving)L and live on it for 4 (or however many months) with no committment of my money. So a suggestion:
Callipygian Christensen: that is 0L in there , to correct a typo
Cindy Ecksol: ?
Callipygian Christensen: Perhaps list land at 6X monthly tier - with an immediate refund of 4X months. This still gives land apparent value, gives the purchaser the free land months and requires them to commit lindens.
Callipygian Christensen: This also simplifies the porcess for whoever sets tier boxes
Cindy Ecksol: finished calli?
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Callipygian Christensen: sorry.yes..done
Pip Torok nods too
Micael Khandr: still too complex
Soro Dagostino: I agree
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Arria Perreault
Cindy Ecksol: Arria?
Arria Perreault: 1. It will be harder to seel new land, if people knows that they can wait for an abandonned land.
2. the only way to sell land to potential citizen to is make a good marketing and advetising
3. The calculation can be easely solved. it is not a good argument.
Cindy Ecksol: (please remember to indicate that you are finished)
Arria Perreault: done
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Gwyneth Llewelyn
Cindy Ecksol: Gwyn?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, in the view of the disagreements using the reasoning that it's too complex,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll withdraw my proposed amendment
Cindy Ecksol: thank you.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but I'll suggest that we use Jamie's own proposed reformulation:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: [[2. At the time of purchase, the buyer shall pay to CDS an amount equal to two months' rent. One half of the amount will be applied as the land's purchase price to CDS, and the other will be applied to satisfy the first two months of monthly rent (local tier) at a 50% discount for those first two months only.]]
Cindy Ecksol: ah....so withdrawn, and a new proposal.
Cindy Ecksol: do we have a second?
Pip Torok: second
Cindy Ecksol: thank you.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's not quite the same thing (and the dreadful L$0 will still appear on the bill) but it's better than nothing. Thanks, that's all.
Cindy Ecksol: I'm going to clear the queue for new discussion.....
Cindy Ecksol: ok....discussion on the new proposal?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I personally think it's also complex )))) but I won't use that rhetoric hehe )
Cindy Ecksol: questions or comments?
Cindy Ecksol: cleo?
Wasp Thor: With all due respect, anything but *+Biatch!!!!+* Lindens is too confusing to the buyer and to the tier management...LL can't sell anything, they have to rent to get any income....It is a fantasy that we can otherwise....Done
Gwyneth Llewelyn: My only comment is that it's a compromise, at least.
Jamie Palisades: ((coud we get a quick confirm of the bill as amended would read?))
Cindy Ecksol: ah, good idea:

(continued)

[Cindy Ecksol]

(continued)

Gwyneth Llewelyn: (ok, Jamie, I'll be typing it )
Jamie Palisades: thx
Cindy Ecksol: in the meantime, cleo did you have a question?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1. Any parcel of land that is re-sold by CDS, after CDS repossesses it, will be sold for a purchase price of $0.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops
Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry!!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2. At the time of purchase, the buyer shall pay to CDS an amount equal to two months' rent. One half of the amount will be applied as the land's purchase price to CDS, and the other will be applied to satisfy the first two months of monthly rent (local tier) at a 50% discount for those first two months only.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 3. This act does not affect the price of any land offered for sale by CDS for the first time, like the property in a newly opened sim.
4. This act will expire on February 1, 2010. If the CDS RA does not act to extend it, the prices for sales of repossessed land by CDS will return to their levels set before this act was adopted.
Cindy Ecksol: thank you gwyn
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: CLEOPATRA Xigalia
Cindy Ecksol: Cleo? you had a question?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: Yes
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: I am wondering how you know land is not wanted, when its not set for sale.
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: We have been asking to buy commercial land for a while and are told to buy land in one of another sims.
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: is it us?? or the land that Sudane/ Rudeen holds on behalf of CDS now, commercial land
Cindy Ecksol: Cleo, I'm going to ask you to defer that question -- it is off-topic for now.
Cindy Ecksol: thanks!
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Arria Perreault
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: it is not available to buy so how do you know its not available
Cindy Ecksol: Arria?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: When will you answer it?
Arria Perreault: I don't think LL policy is a good argument here.We are talking about our principles. If CDS has to take it in account, I would suggest to make a workgroup in the RA and study all legislative consequences, in ordre to prepare a new conception of citizenship or even a revised constitution.
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: Before the vote?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: done.
Arria Perreault: done
Cindy Ecksol: thanks
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Jamie Palisades
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: Cindy Ecksol: land that is yellow on the map is available for sale....
Cindy Ecksol: Jamie?
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: that isnt the land in question
Cindy Ecksol: Jamie?
Jamie Palisades: thanks
Jamie Palisades: [10:02] Jamie Palisades: [9:58] <<RA member>>: Jamie is that your amendment? Or are you sticking to the original?
[10:01] Palisades?: gotta see what she types first but i THINK she is going for the alternative i offered her on the forums, in which case, my take is, it's harmless, but unncessary. If it were me i woudl vote down the amendment if we have votes to pass the original without amendmen t-- but woudl still vote for the amended bill, if the amendment passes
Jamie Palisades: there my inside startegy, in he interests of ytransparency
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Jamie Palisades: now then
Jamie Palisades: Arria and Cleopatra raised some fair points. Let can offer my own answers briefly, anyway. (AP: Harder to sell new land?) Seems different to me. Most people in SL do not seem to wait months, but rather, buy when they buy, based on what's there at stated prices now, not lurk and see if things change for months. This is why in my opinion "LIUST PRICE" matters.
Jamie Palisades: (AP: Better ads) We agree. Currently we put in approximately 10x the time input by the last two governments. I welcome all volunteer contributions of time, as does all of CDS
Jamie Palisades: (CX - land availability) Thjat's MY fault Cleo. Commercial land should be available at a much reduced price, but for the last few weeks we have been in price limbo due to this bill, so I have been holding off, so as not to dump overpriced land into a market than then immediately falls. Done
Cindy Ecksol: thanks
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: CLEOPATRA Xigalia
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Micael Khandr
Cindy Ecksol: Micael?
Jamie Palisades smiles
Micael Khandr: Well, I'm not sure it is still relevant, but . . .
Micael Khandr: My rhetorical point is still there: This issue has no answer that is the perfect one. In that case, if people have different ideas of how things should get done, I think that it favors the plan designed by the person who HAS been getting things done so far, not the RA as armchair land managers
Micael Khandr: Done with rhetoric
Cindy Ecksol: thanks!
Cindy Ecksol: I'm going to take a moment to comment myself.
Cindy Ecksol: Jamie is indifferent to the two proposals. I feel differently for one specific reason.
Cindy Ecksol: The amended proposal is one that everyone in the room (including Jamie) can live with.
Soro Dagostino: Disagree
Cindy Ecksol: It represents the first time that I've seen a real compromise between strongly opposed factions
Cindy Ecksol: from a practical point of view, it makes no difference which we pass.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (agreed)
Cindy Ecksol: the amendment would effectively reset all parcel prices to one month of tier.
Cindy Ecksol: As I commented on the forums, that is in line with what's going on in the rest of SL....and my personal experience with the sale of my parcel in AM confirms that it is a reasonable setting.
Soro Dagostino: /raises hand
Cindy Ecksol: it IS slightly more complex to administer, but given the fact that it represents a solid compromise, I'd encourage you to vote in favor.
Cindy Ecksol: finished, thank you.
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Soro Dagostino
Cindy Ecksol: Soro?
Soro Dagostino: I think, given the overall markets in LL, the so called compromise, creates a complex issue that will take time to explain.
Soro Dagostino: Vote now.
Soro Dagostino: Vote no
Cindy Ecksol: (and then Jamie and then I'm going to call for approval of the amendment)
Soro Dagostino: Done
Cindy Ecksol: Jamie?
Jamie Palisades: COIndy in the interest of time, I aldo thikn the amendment'ss unnecessary and need not prolong debate. doner
Jamie Palisades: (even if i COULD type fast )
Cindy Ecksol: thx
Cindy Ecksol: ok, I need a motion to amend the proposal.....
Soro Dagostino: Point of order.
Cindy Ecksol: soro?
Cindy Ecksol: (what did I miss?)
Soro Dagostino: Vote down the amendment -- call the question on the original proposal.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmh
Cindy Ecksol: first we have to decide on the amendment...THEN the proposal (amended or not)
Carolyn Saarinen: that's my understanding
Cindy Ecksol: so I need a motion to amend....
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I certainly move to amend
Cindy Ecksol: if we vote it down, I will move to the original
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Jamie Palisades: ((gwyn stated the amendment to the motion at 10:00 in open chat, no?))
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I did, but I'm happy to re-state it again )
Cindy Ecksol: BUT...need 7 votes to vote it down....otherwise we will have to defer to next meeting
Rose Springvale: lol
Cindy Ecksol: 7 day votes....
Carolyn Saarinen: lordy!
Gwyneth Llewelyn is always happy to say the same thing twice
Soro Dagostino: Three times,
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Cindy Ecksol: sorry...that's how it works
Jamie Palisades: (koff koff how about a second and vote there, LRA Solomon?))
Cindy Ecksol: need a second to amend....
Pip Torok: seconded
Cindy Ecksol: thank you.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks, Pip!
Soro Dagostino: Call the question
Cindy Ecksol: all in favor of amending the propsal?
Pip Torok: aye
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
Carolyn Saarinen: I favour the original act . So nay
Micael Khandr: nay
Wasp Thor: NAY
Soro Dagostino: nay
Joaquin Gustav: nay
Arria Perreault: aye
Cindy Ecksol: and I vote aye
Cindy Ecksol: four in favor, five opposed.
Cindy Ecksol: we will have to wait for 7 day votes.
Jamie Palisades: ((well, in a quorate meeting, 5-4 brings you back to the original unamended proposal, right?
Soro Dagostino: I agree
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, simple majority I would say ? but I'll leave that to Cindy
Cindy Ecksol: no, jamie -- we have 7 day votes outstanding.
Jamie Palisades: i heh heh
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Cindy Ecksol: those could change the approval of the amendment....or not.
Cindy Ecksol: so we will have to table until next time.
Cindy Ecksol: sorry.
Jamie Palisades: so any amendment proposal can stall the main mnotion that it amends?
Jamie Palisades:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Interesting
Jamie Palisades: i call on you to take the main vote
Carolyn Saarinen: Bugger me, can we not get SOMETHING DONE?
Cindy Ecksol: that's the way I read the rules.
Jamie Palisades: which ALSO gets a 7 day change
Cindy Ecksol: lol!
Jamie Palisades: Caro, my answer to thsat depends on the LA
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, sorry, I believe Jamie is right. Nothing prevents us to vote on the first proposal, really.
Cindy Ecksol: what would be the point of voting on the unamended bill? we still have to deal with the amendment...
Bromo Ivory: This is a big change to the way business and income works in CDS, I say let the RA figure out the right way rather than try to pass something just to get done
Pip Torok puts a value on 7-day votes
Cindy Ecksol: and what is the point of 7 day votes when they won't make a difference?
Jamie Palisades: i am in quere, but others ahead of me
Rose Springvale: this has been going on for a month. if your interpretation is correct, why bother to have meetings
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don't see any problem in voting things in sequence and wait for the 7-day results...
Arria Perreault: this is democratical debate: it just takes time
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: CLEOPATRA Xigalia
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Arria Perreault
Bromo Ivory: The effects of this vote will be for years in the ability of CDS to raise income
Cindy Ecksol: all right....
Cindy Ecksol: queue is backlogged.
Carolyn Saarinen: Is there ANY mechanism, by which we can make a decision and let our Civil Servants do their jobs?
Cindy Ecksol: let's reset....
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: I was next.
Arria Perreault: the RA has its own responsibility, CAro
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: LOL
Cindy Ecksol: ok, cleo, are you on topic?
Cindy Ecksol: if so, please -- you have the floor
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: yes i believe i am.
CLEOPATRA Xigalia: I think you don't have accurate and timely information on the market to make this decision. done
Cindy Ecksol: thanks.
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Jamie Palisades
Cindy Ecksol: jamie?
Arria Perreault: Ariia first
Jamie Palisades: yeah she was ahead of me before you xapped the queue
Cindy Ecksol: ok....thank you jamie
Cindy Ecksol: arria?
Jamie Palisades: if it please queen solomon
Arria Perreault: Again, if the basic consitions in LL have changes, it is to the RA to face this issue and to update the legislation. I am sorry, but I don't see other solution. Jamie's solution is only "fireman's action" and I could consider it only because it is written provisory.
I am not against a citizenship based on renting, but it has to be build in our law.
I would add that we have to respect more the responsibility of each branch. The Exec has some tasks to achieve and RA too.
Bromo Ivory: L$0 land ... will make all land L$0
Arria Perreault: I am very aware of my responsibility of RA member: set the general frame of CDS (in the name of citizen who has choosen us)
Arria Perreault: we will vote a proposal for few weeks. Better launch a real reflexion on this topic
Cindy Ecksol: thanks, arria
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Bromo Ivory
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Arria
Cindy Ecksol: bromo?
Arria Perreault: and request all well informed people (I heard many) to describe all fact about LL land market
Jamie Palisades: cindy> did I defer to arria? am i not still in queue?
Arria Perreault: so we can think wise
Cindy Ecksol: ah...sorry....
Cindy Ecksol: my bad....
Soro Dagostino: Nor can I get in
Pip Torok agrees with Arria
Arria Perreault: done
Bromo Ivory: My main question - is even though it appears to be a trvially small amount of land, what assurance do we have that this won't create a permanent L$0 situation with prospective citizens just waiting for land to build up and then be fire-saled?
Cindy Ecksol: ok, Jamie, Soro, bromo in that order please
Jamie Palisades sighs
Bromo Ivory: sry
Cindy Ecksol: my bad bromo....
Cindy Ecksol: np
Cindy Ecksol: Jamie?
Jamie Palisades: Ldiues and gentlemen, this wil be the sceond meetign where a majhority of the RA duly eloected is not allowed to pass lwws, byt a combination of rule tricks, bad behavior and poor management
Jamie Palisades: i;m going tyo try very hard not to go personal here
Jamie Palisades: in an issue which has been under discussion (sorry Bromo) for weeks now.) From any source, I am deeply disappointed in the degree of order that has been applied to the administration of these meetings. Even Gwyn agreed with me, the motion without the amendment should be put to a vote now
Micael Khandr: Civility, please!
Jamie Palisades: ((and no i am not able to read all the IMs I;m getting sorry))
Jamie Palisades: as to the RULES
Micael Khandr: lag
Bromo Ivory: ((picks dart out his neck))
Jamie Palisades: The only possible meaning of the 7 day rule is that ALL validly presented motions as well as amendments get that 7 day shot.
Arria Perreault: civility would be to manage this in a proper legislative process
Jamie Palisades: yes, an dI;d love to see onbe Arria.
Soro Dagostino: May I speak?
Cindy Ecksol: (next soro)
Jamie Palisades: To let the amendment have the 7 day open rule -- then refuse it to the main motion -- could only be the result of bad rule readings or worse. Cindy, I ask you to change your ruling now.
Jamie Palisades: done.
Cindy Ecksol: soro?
Soro Dagostino: Madame Chair. I rise to appeal the order of the chair regarding the main motion.
Soro Dagostino: Non debatetable.
Cindy Ecksol: ?
Carolyn Saarinen: So we vote on the main motion
Carolyn Saarinen: yes?
Pip Torok disagrees
Cindy Ecksol: wait...
Cindy Ecksol: I also disagree.
Soro Dagostino: If we vote to change the order of the chair
Cindy Ecksol: ah....
Cindy Ecksol: here's the thing, colleagues.
CLEOPATRA Xigalia grins
Cindy Ecksol: IF we vote down the amendment....and then vote in favor of the unamended proposal....
Cindy Ecksol: the 7 day votes will be meaningless.
Arria Perreault: if the 7 days-vote make passes the amended proposal and not the main,what does it mean exactly? and both?
Cindy Ecksol: 7 day vote may turn out to be in favor of the amendment....but the RA will already have approved the unamended proposal
Cindy Ecksol: what sense does that make?
Cindy Ecksol: done
Cindy Ecksol: and soro's motion is in order, so I'm going to call for a vote on my ruling
Soro Dagostino: Aye
Jamie Palisades: ((please just call the vote - is Ciny's ruling that the main motion CANNOT be voted on today correct due to the amendment and the preence of 7 day requests))
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (sorry to have missed the whole points)
Arria Perreault: if we say yes to the main proposal now and the amendment passes in one week, the prices will change in 7 day?
Cindy Ecksol: all in favor of allowing the vote on the amendment to stand, say Aye
Pip Torok: aye
Arria Perreault: very complex
Jamie Palisades: ehh?
Soro Dagostino: aye
Jamie Palisades: stand?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: stand?
Soro Dagostino: No
Jamie Palisades: cin! c'mon, off the rails
Cindy Ecksol: ok....
Cindy Ecksol: reset guys.
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Robert Galland: Sorry I am late
Robert Galland: I vote no
Jamie Palisades: the MOTION was to OVERRULE you on the IDEA that the RA CANNOT vote on the main motion today
Cindy Ecksol: if you vote "Aye" you are voting to override my decision to wait for 7 day votes on the amendment
Carolyn Saarinen: At the very least we need an extra-ordinary meeting once the 7 day votes are in, IF they confirm the defeat of the amendment. We are taking too long over an important issue here.
Bromo Ivory: ((Chill Jamie))
Robert Galland: I vote in favor of overruling. to be clear.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wait, sorry, since I crashed, I missed something there ? what Jamie is saying and what Cindy is proposing are two different things!
Cindy Ecksol: so say "Aye" if you want to overrule me and proceed to vote on the main proposal
Soro Dagostino: That is what was intended by the motion'
Arria Perreault: What do we vote?
Cindy Ecksol: Aye to overrule and proceed ot the next vote
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye to overrule
Cindy Ecksol: Nay to support me and wait for 7 day votes
Jamie Palisades: ((exactly correct, thanks -->)) [10:34] Cindy Ecksol: so say "Aye" if you want to overrule me and proceed to vote on the main proposal
Soro Dagostino: Aye
Carolyn Saarinen: aye to proceed
Pip Torok: nay
Arria Perreault: Nay
Wasp Thor: AYE
Robert Galland: Yes to overrule
Joaquin Gustav: absten
Cindy Ecksol: five in favor 3 opposed, one abstention
Robert Galland has indicated consent to be recorded.
Cindy Ecksol: the amendment fails.
Jamie Palisades: sorry?
Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*
Soro Dagostino: The chair is overruled
Cindy Ecksol: for the origianal unamended proposal:
Cindy Ecksol: all in favor say AYE
Jamie Palisades: oy.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ouch
Carolyn Saarinen: aye
Jamie Palisades: no cindy
Arria Perreault: if we say yes to the main proposal now and the amendment passes in one week, the prices will change in 7 day?
Soro Dagostino: Not again
Rose Springvale: please state the motion
Cindy Ecksol: the motion is for Jamie's origianl proposal UNAMENDED
Cindy Ecksol: all in favor?
Soro Dagostino: The Motion before the body is the original proposal.
Bromo Ivory: ((Seems like there is a constitutional issue - amaendments passing after main legislation passing - nullifies everything))
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, that's a bit different
Arria Perreault: first I have a question
Jamie Palisades: i ask the indulgen eof the body to try and eplain,m wher ewe actually are, proceedurally, unless soro or gwyn waqnt to do it. I am sorry to say that cindy's incorret
Arria Perreault: if we say yes to the main proposal now and the amendment passes in one week, the prices will change in 7 day?
Cindy Ecksol: ok. may I have the floor?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Arria
Cindy Ecksol: The RA overruled my rules decision.
Arria Perreault: so 7 days of bargain
Cindy Ecksol: that means that the AMENDMENT fails...and we move on to the main proposal
Jamie Palisades: no
Gwyneth Llewelyn: no
Soro Dagostino: Agreed
Cindy Ecksol: I am not sure how we will deal with 7 day votes.....
Jamie Palisades: Gwyn? you want to try?
Cindy Ecksol: but that's what you guys just voted for
Jamie Palisades: or i will, sigh
Cindy Ecksol: Gwyn?
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Jamie Palisades
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok ))))
Arria Perreault: It is not logical
Pip Torok agrees
Arria Perreault: we have to wait the result of the 7-days vote
Cindy Ecksol: pleas....let Gwyn speak
Pip Torok: exactly
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, here is how things work. Bills presented have an order, right?
Arria Perreault: or the land gets for 0 L$ now and possibly change in 7 days
Cindy Ecksol: I too think that it is illogical, but that is what SOro forced.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And the order is the order they've been presented here.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, we first have Jamie's unamended proposal. That's Bill #1 today. We haven't still voted on it.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then we have the amended bill, call it #2. We have voted on it today, but we will have results only in 7 days.
Soro Dagostino: That is what the body is to vote on -- now.
Soro Dagostino: Call he Question
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What we have overruled is the suggestion that we cancel everything and NOT vote on Bill #1. But we certainly can ? and should! ? vote on Bill #1.
Pip Torok thinks the RA have nullified the votes of its abesent members
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It'll still go on 7-day vote.

(continued)

[Cindy Ecksol]

(continued)

Arria Perreault: as RA members, we have to be responsible, please
Arria Perreault: we represent all the citizen
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No... so, what happens is: non-present members will be allowed to vote on BOTH bills in 7 days.
Jamie Palisades: yup
Cindy Ecksol: lol!
Soro Dagostino: Agreed.
Cindy Ecksol: ok....
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And in 7 days, we'll see which one was voted. Since Bill #2 comes after Bill #1, if Bill #2 gets approved, it will override Bill #1. Simple.
Arria Perreault: (in the past, the RA met weekly!)
Free Radar HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets
Jamie Palisades smiles. I thikn Gwyn and I are on the same page here as to the rules, with which she and I both spent, well, years
Pip Torok takes back the assertion
Gwyneth Llewelyn: If Bill #2 does NOT get enough votes BUT Bill #1 does, Bill #1 is approved and enters in full force of the law in 7 days. Simple, too
Bromo Ivory: Gwyn - does it?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Bromo, that's how it works.
Bromo Ivory: Is that spelled out?
Jamie Palisades: ...
Jamie Palisades: the overruling does not disturb the fact that there (a) was an amendment, and (b) the amendment can be set saide by 7 day votes later.
We now proceed to the main motion unamended. Maybe it will pass, or not. If the AMENDMENT retroactively passes in 7 days it will NULLIFY a final passage of the unamended main motion.
So for the main motion unamended to survive, it must (a) pass today, (b) not get undone by 7 day votes on the main moiton, and (c) not get retroacively amended by a 7 day vote change to the amendment.
In this way the absent members keep their right to vote.
But the RA gets to move forward. As usual. That's our rules.
Arria Perreault: I see one problem
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (Jamie's faster than me, but that's exactly how it works, yes)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks, Jamie
Arria Perreault: when come the non-amended proposal in force? in seven days?
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: CLEOPATRA Xigalia
Soro Dagostino: Madame Chair
Cindy Ecksol: Soro?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, and btw, this has happened before in the RA, and it's not the first time; we did it exactly as Jamie has described in the past.
Soro Dagostino: Call hte question
Cindy Ecksol: ok.
Soro Dagostino: Cuts off debate
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Arria: yes in either case.
Cindy Ecksol: I AM going to call the question now.
Cindy Ecksol: it's Question #1: the unamended bill.
Arria Perreault: I want to see this in the proposal
Cindy Ecksol: all in favor, please say AYE
Soro Dagostino: aye
Wasp Thor: AYE
Arria Perreault: nay
Gwyneth Llewelyn abstains
Micael Khandr: aye
Joaquin Gustav: aye
Pip Torok: nay
Robert Galland: nay
Cindy Ecksol: abstains
Carolyn Saarinen: aye
Cindy Ecksol: five in favor, three opposed, two abstentions
Rose Springvale: i think there was confusion
Rose Springvale: on what you were voting on
Cindy Ecksol: unamended proposal carries, subject to 7 day votes
Cindy Ecksol: is anyone confused about that?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not me
Soro Dagostino: Thank you.
Robert Galland: I am definitely confused and apoligize. Thise meeting time could not be worse for me for RL.
Cindy Ecksol: ok....
Joaquin Gustav: i am a bit but it may be because of the language
Robert Galland: I have seen things amended which are apparently no longer the amendeded because of new amendments that happened today
Wasp Thor: I thought we were voting on the unamended proposal
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We were!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: [10:46] Cindy Ecksol: unamended proposal carries, subject to 7 day votes
Soro Dagostino: That was the intent of the motion
Cindy Ecksol: yes, we were.
Wasp Thor: no amendments
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Rose Springvale: Rob is that what you voted on?
Jamie Palisades: i's hared to walk in late when the effect of each vote is not clearly announced, Rob.
Cindy Ecksol: the amendment FAILED 4 to 5
Cindy Ecksol: the unamended proposal PASSED
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's correct.
Cindy Ecksol: 5/3/2
Robert Galland: I have just received text of what is apparently what we are voting on
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: )))
Robert Galland: CDS-owned Land Pricing Act
1. Any parcel of land that is re-sold by CDS, after CDS repossesses it, will be sold for a purchase price of $0.
2. At the time of purchase, the buyer shall pay CDS two months' rent.
3. This act does not affect the price of any land offered for sale by CDS for the first time, like the property in a newly opened sim.
4. This act will expire on February 1, 2010, and if the CDS RA does not act to extend it, the prices for sales of repossessed land by CDS will return to their levels set before this act was adopted.
Robert Galland: I vote yes
Carolyn Saarinen is in desparate need of a pint
Robert Galland: Me too
Jamie Palisades: several Caro
Cindy Ecksol needs a quart
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
Cindy Ecksol: ok....
Cindy Ecksol: we are DONE with this....until we sort out 7 day votes
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* Next item?
Bromo Ivory cheers
Pip Torok downs water like there's no tomorrow
Cindy Ecksol: not sure what we will do if the amendment gets 7 votes in the 7 day.....
Rose Springvale: pretty sure you don't have to worry about that
Micael Khandr: whew . . . this is hard work . . .
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Simple, Cindy. If it passes, it overrides the unamended bill.
Wasp Thor: not likely
Cindy Ecksol:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, that's how it works, the order of introducing the bills is important.
Pip Torok: absolutely!
Cindy Ecksol: Arria, we are about out of time -- can I ask you to defer discussion of your bill to next time?
Micael Khandr: . . . how a bill is made . . .
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Pip Torok: .... sausages?
Carolyn Saarinen: oh yes
Soro Dagostino: I'll lite the BBQ
Soro Dagostino: And add a touch of garlic.
Cindy Ecksol: and if arria says "yes", I'll ask for citizen concerns and RA member concerns....
Carolyn Saarinen: of course
Pip Torok: sausages baked one side like Mercury by the Sun
Robert Galland: In the future, I would suggest that we post the text for a specific bill being voted on. Because some people's nomenclature about what is amended versus unamended may not be the same.
Cindy Ecksol: arria?
Micael Khandr: i need a nap . . .
Arria Perreault: yes
Cindy Ecksol: can we defer yours to nexttime? we am out of time....
Wasp Thor: I need a ladder to get out of the rabbit hole
Gwyneth Llewelyn: [10:52] Arria Perreault: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Cindy Ecksol: thank you.
Pip Torok sympathises with Robert when you get unamended then amended then amendment of amendment etc
Arria Perreault: As we have a provisory solution, we are not an hurry with this bill. I would like to make a brief statement,
Cindy Ecksol: concerns of citizens or RA members? announcements?
Arria Perreault: if you allow me
Cindy Ecksol: yes, arria?
Arria Perreault: I would like to give the context of my bill
Cindy Ecksol: arria, could that wait please?
Cindy Ecksol: I really need to close down this meeting....
Cindy Ecksol: and get that pint or two....and I think we all do.
Pip Torok: move to adjourn
Wasp Thor: second
Cindy Ecksol: before that, pip...
Jamie Palisades stares, agape
Arria Perreault: I will write in the forum. But I regret that a RA member cannot express in the RA meetin
Cindy Ecksol: I would like to say that I will be informing SP that I will resign as LRA effective immediately
Micael Khandr: eros
Arria Perreault: and give some explanations
Pip Torok: !!!! :-0
Cindy Ecksol: I clearly do not have the support of my colleagues in the faction
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
Cindy Ecksol: fortunately we have others who are capable of leading, so I look forward to working with them
Cindy Ecksol: thanks
Cindy Ecksol: all in favor of adjouring?
Bromo Ivory: SP did appear to be eating it's own today
Robert Galland: aye
Soro Dagostino: Aye
Wasp Thor: AYE
Arria Perreault: abstain
Joaquin Gustav: aye
Gwyneth Llewelyn abstains
Carolyn Saarinen: aye
Cindy Ecksol: lol!
Pip Torok is appalled at strong-arm tactics
Jamie Palisades: On an informal note, then, I'd like to announce a call for a meeting of the Simplicity Party faction. I will post alternative dates in the faction Forum. The last month has utterly convinced me that the faction system is an irretrievable mess, and promotes gameplaying and ego over progress. For everyone. We wil need to act, in my view. Perhaps not in the way you think. Thanks.
Micael Khandr: aye
Cindy Ecksol: how can you abstain from a vote to adjourn??
Pip Torok: aye
Wasp Thor: hahaahah
Bromo Ivory: Torn that they were having SO MUCH FUN that they couldn't vote yes
Cindy Ecksol: ok, we are adjourned....

[Sonja Strom]

Wow, this took a long time to read!

My first thought is that maybe the Representative Assembly has gotten too big for everybody/anybody to be happy with its discussions. There are a lot of thoughtful, intelligent, and well-educated people taking part in it, each trying to express their perspective - and with so many trying to do that it seems to be a frustrating experience for all. Maybe the number of representatives participating in the discussion could be reduced in order to try to have more orderly and productive meetings.