Shep Titian: Ok .. do we all have the agenda .. weell its skeleton?
Patroklus Murakami: yes
Rosie Gray: no
Rosie Gray: is it in the box?
Shep Titian: it the box Rosie .. but I did'nt clear the old stuff
Shep Titian: Well I don't think we need 5 mins to approve it
Patroklus Murakami: i'd like to add an item to the agenda
Shep Titian: go ahead Pat
Patroklus Murakami: repeal of CDSL 13-7 Term LImits Act
Patroklus Murakami: 
Shep Titian: So added
Shep Titian: Anyone other than Pat have something to speak on?
Rosie Gray: not at themoment
Shep Titian: ok .. Next ... citizens concerns?
Shep Titian: Ok ... RA members concerns?
Patroklus Murakami: none here
Rosie Gray: not from me
Beathan Vale: not today
Shep Titian: ok ... any old business we have to deal with?
Shep Titian: Alright .. well next .. New business .. Pat .. all yours
Patroklus Murakami: ty
Patroklus Murakami: i move we amend the Constitution to set the size of the RA at five members
Shep Titian: I'll second that .. and we have 4 members .. so we can pass this today
Rosie Gray: I second that motion
Shep Titian: well Beathan .. you're opinion?
Shep Titian: Lol * your
Beathan Vale: I don't like the frequency with with we amend the Constitution and I would rather have a larger RA or an RA that grows with the population. I think that we should either set the RA at 7 or 9, or set the base at 5 and the largest size at 41 and then just change the trigger population to require a more population growth for RA growth than we currently have in the Con.
Beathan Vale: However, we have 6 declared candidates, I think --
Beathan Vale: So -- that is a concern
Shep Titian: No we have 4
Beathan Vale: OK -- even worse
Patroklus Murakami: beathan, would you agree that 10% is too high a figure?
Beathan Vale: So -- for now, and with the stipulation that I consider this a temporary fix -- I am inclined tto support the rule
Beathan Vale: Pat -- yes -- I would say 5 + 5% or even 2% --
Shep Titian: Ok well I think we can vote on this now
Delia Lake: /raises her hand
Shep Titian: I vote aye
Shep Titian: Delia?
Delia Lake: if I might ask, and I"m not for or agains t this proposal, what is the purpose of trying to limit the number of RA?
Patroklus Murakami: when you are ready shep, would you like me to state the question clearly? i.e. state how the constitution will be amended?
Beathan Vale: For me -- the purpose is to avoid electoral fatigue and to help insure we have contested elections -- if the RA is so big that it takes all comers, we don't have a democracy, but rely entirely on self-selection
Shep Titian: I see it as a case of the previous expectations being too high Delia
Rosie Gray: I agree with both of those statements
Shep Titian: Not 10% in RL are part of government
Beathan Vale: I for one would like to see whether people would support me in a contested election based on my platform -- otherwise I have trouble assessing whether my platform is desirable or not
Shep Titian: o0k Pat if you would please
Patroklus Murakami: okay
Patroklus Murakami: i move we amend article 1 section 2 of the constitution so that instead of "The number of representative seats in the RA is equal to the odd whole number nearest to 10% of the population, rounded down, with a minimum of five seats and a maximum of forty seats." it reads "The number of representative seats in the RA is equal to five"
Shep Titian: Hmmm one point .. why leave the word equal in there?
Trebor Warcliffe: /raises hand
Rosie Gray: clarity I would think
Shep Titian: Trebor
Patroklus Murakami: history it retains some of the language of the original drafting
Trebor Warcliffe: Are we going to limit it to 5 no matter how large the population grows? I like Beathans idea of lowering the amount after 5. Maybe 1 seat per an additional 25 citizens
Trebor Warcliffe: Thats basically 4%
Trebor Warcliffe: Done
Patroklus Murakami: yes trebor, that's my proposal
Shep Titian: I think we need to grow first .. then address it
Beathan Vale: Trebor, I agree, but the RA can always reassess this each term
Shep Titian: Okay .. now a vote
Trebor Warcliffe: Better to address it now so it doesnt become an issue in the future
Patroklus Murakami: i vote aye
Trebor Warcliffe: And I dont see that wording in Pat's proposal
Shep Titian: No Trebor that just confuses things
Rosie Gray: I vote Aye
Shep Titian: I vote aye
Beathan Vale: Trebor, based on our past, I think this will always be an issue in the future -- the proposal would set the RA to 5, no more, no less, regardless of population
Beathan Vale: Reluctantly and noting that future RAs can, should, and doubtless will revisit this issue when circumstances change, I vote aye
Rosie Gray: ?
Trebor Warcliffe: I agree it could be brought back up for debate as the population grows. Seems like some laws change on a term by term basis anyhow.
Shep Titian: Thank you .. 4 out of four ayes .. Anna shouild have 7 day .. but the motion is carried
Shep Titian: well done Pat
Patroklus Murakami: yay!
Rosie Gray: I've heard that Anna's hard drive has died, and she likely won't be able to get into SL for a while
Shep Titian: Now Pat I believe your reforming spirit continues?
Shep Titian: Awww poor girl
Patroklus Murakami: yes. constitutional reform day here!
Patroklus Murakami: sorry to hear that rosie 
Beathan Vale: Hi Ranma -- welcome back
Rosie Gray: hi Ranma
Shep Titian: Hi Ranma
Ranma Tardis: hello
Patroklus Murakami: i move that we discuss reforming the SC. (if there is appetite to do so, i'll bring proposals to the next meeting)
Trebor Warcliffe: Hello Ranma glad you could join us.
Patroklus Murakami: ranma! long time
Ranma Tardis: yes, sory I am late
Beathan Vale: ::nod:: I'm not prepared to support the current proposal -- so that is a good process
Ranma Tardis has indicated consent to be recorded.
Shep Titian: Ok so what are your pricipal objects Beathan?
Beathan Vale: I don't want to limit the SC to 3 or remove the dispute resolution function -- at least not without replacing that function through some other institution. I think we need to have a vehicle for resolving problems with due process and known and fair rules. I don't need the SC to do that as long as it gets done.
Patroklus Murakami: we could discuss around that beathan
Patroklus Murakami: i[m not fixated on limiting the SC to three (tho i have my reasons)
Delia Lake strongly objects to the RA uniformly reforming another independent branch of government without the participation of the SC. And particularly strongly objects as there is a working committee on SC reform right now, committee being Pat, Beathan, Delia and Calli, and we have not issued findings yet!
Patroklus Murakami: my main problem is with the SC as a 'self-selecting meritocracy'
Patroklus Murakami: and the way they are able to sneak people on without RA approval (as with soro)
Delia Lake also objects to the assessment of "sneaking" which was most certainly NOT the case!
Patroklus Murakami: delia, there's a proposal on the table. the RA can debate this
Rosie Gray raises a wing
Beathan Vale: I would certainly support that aspect of the reform. Requiring that all SC members be approved by the RA through formal action before taking a seat
Shep Titian: Rosie
Beathan Vale: That would include current RA members -- no getting on through RA inaction
Trebor Warcliffe: Wasnt that a case of the RA dropping the ball and not holding a meeting in reference to 30 days or something like that.
Rosie Gray: I'm just wondering if Pat could expand on what happened when Soro came onto the SC
Beathan Vale: I mean current SC members
Rosie Gray: ahem, I have the floor
Trebor Warcliffe: sorry
Rosie Gray: can you explain Pat?
Shep Titian: Smacks Trebors wrist
Patroklus Murakami: look, perspectives will differ here
Delia Lake: @ Trebor, it most certainly was the RA dropping the ball there
Patroklus Murakami: from my point of view, the sC approved soro at a time in between an old RA leaving and a new one starting
Patroklus Murakami: the RA failed to meet within 30 days to approve/disapprove
Patroklus Murakami: so soro went through without RA oversight
Delia Lake raises her hand again!
Shep Titian: Delia
Delia Lake: Pat that is simply not true.
Patroklus Murakami: i think thats pretty sneaky. RAs often fail to meet at the end of their term
Delia Lake: the RA did hold a meeting but didn't have a quorum, and in fact although notified of Soro's nomination did not even put his affirmation on the agenda for that meeting. it's in the transcript of that RA meeting
Beathan Vale: Pat -- I agree. I would simply remove the 30-day automatic membership period -- that would put the burden on the SC to get its membes approved rather on the RA to closely scrutinize the dealings of the SC
Shep Titian: Could we say a new member is on probation until RA has had a chance to meet?
Beathan Vale: That wuold help both insitutions
Trebor Warcliffe: raises hand
Shep Titian: Trebor
Delia Lake: without the 30 day rule, the RA could hold up affirmations ad infinitum, just as is happening in the US Congress today
Trebor Warcliffe: I agree with Delia's statement jsut posted
Patroklus Murakami: okay, well we could just repeal CDSL 4-8
Beathan Vale: Shep -- not unless we have a whole new set of rules distinguishign full members from probationary members
Trebor Warcliffe: 30 days is plenty of time
Trebor Warcliffe: the RA is elected for 6 months they should work for 6 months
Patroklus Murakami: sometimes it's not trebor
Patroklus Murakami: as delia said, the RA tried to meet but could not achieve a quorum
Shep Titian: No Delia not if it is written that RA hAS to vote at the earliest meeting available
Rosie Gray: hi Calli
Patroklus Murakami: then it took time for the new RA to come in and the 30 days had passed
Beathan Vale: Delia, I think that is unlikely -- and I also think that a person the SC would not approve, either by active disapproval or by a failure to support, should not be on the SC
Patroklus Murakami: open to abuse by the SC in my opinion
Delia Lake: it is not the problem of the SC that the RA doesn't always arrange for quorums
Callipygian Christensen: good morning
Shep Titian: Its not always possible Delia
Shep Titian: Hi Calli
Patroklus Murakami: hi calli. hope you brought your knuckle dusters
Beathan Vale: Delia -- yes it is -- it is a problem for all of us. We are a democracy. Having the SC with its current rules at the center is a serious problem. You are making me inclined to just flat out support Pat's proposal.
Delia Lake: just as the SC has a time limit on flagging legislationpassed by the RA for review, the RA should have a timelimit for matters regarding the SC
Callipygian Christensen: I seem to have missed the posting of this meeting and its agenda
Delia Lake: i cannot believe that within a 30 day period there is not a single 10 min time on which 5 people can agree to meet
Trebor Warcliffe: Agree Delia
Beathan Vale: Calli -- unfortinately, like the last RA meeting, this one met on autopilot without a posting due to the LRA's computer problems.
Patroklus Murakami: delia. this often happens at the end of the term . we enter a 'lame duck' period when we can't get a quorum
Beathan Vale: I can't beleive that the SC needs to have the automatic approval process rather thann accept a rather modest check by a democractic institution.
Callipygian Christensen: I see you are debating the continuing 'how they snuck Soro in' issue?
Trebor Warcliffe: The SC does not have an automatic approval process
Patroklus Murakami: i object to the SC appointing new members during this period. it means the elected body does not get to ratify them
Patroklus Murakami: we need to change that
Trebor Warcliffe: Sure they do all they have to do is call a meeting within 30 days
Beathan Vale: Yes it does -- members are automatically approved if the RA does not act. That is an automatic process than can be halted, but still and automatic process
Trebor Warcliffe: IF the RA does not act
Patroklus Murakami: but we also need to change the way we make appointments. 'self-selected meritocracy' really has no place in a democracy
Trebor Warcliffe: Key Point
Shep Titian: That is true Pat
Beathan Vale: Pat, I agree
Delia Lake: the RA has an automatic process for legislation passed if the SC doesn't flag a bill
Trebor Warcliffe: There are rules already in place that address the issue. The RA has 30 days to meet.
Callipygian Christensen: May I ask who is chairing the meeting?
Rosie Gray: Shep is
Callipygian Christensen: thank you
Shep Titian: I'm meant to be
Trebor Warcliffe: Going to get my wrist smacked again
Shep Titian: You came close
Patroklus Murakami: we could make the limit 90 days. that would be *plenty* of time
Shep Titian: I would support that
Trebor Warcliffe: I wouldnt
Shep Titian: Trbor
Trebor Warcliffe: raises hand
Beathan Vale: I really don't like any time limit. If the RA does not support a candidate as demonstrated by approving them, they should be get on
Shep Titian: You don't need to
Beathan Vale: should NOT get on I mean
Shep Titian: Yes but Beathan it can't be left like that
Callipygian Christensen: Madam Chair - may I have the floor when it is my turn please?
Shep Titian: We can't leave it that if we don't say aye .. assume you're off .. it needs a time limit
Beathan Vale: It can if we change the RA rules to have a specific section for SC business as we do for Exec business
Shep Titian: I'll give Calli the floor
Shep Titian: Calli??
Callipygian Christensen: On Thursday I sent notecards to at, Beathan and Delia speaking to this issue and asking for a meeting (one madated by this RA) - I received no response from Beathan or Pat, so first I would like to ask if that means they do not wish to work together on a process of reform?
Callipygian Christensen: Pat, not 'at'
Patroklus Murakami: if i may reply?
Beathan Vale: Calli -- the process issues are my sticking point and why I am not currently supporting the proposal
Shep Titian: yes
Patroklus Murakami: i'm happy to meet but it is difficul to find time for all four of us to do so. i'm simply putting this on the table for discussion. this was something i committed to doing at the last election
Patroklus Murakami: and i doubt we will find a consensus between the four of us given my understanding of our views
Shep Titian: Hmmmm there has to be a way to compromise
Beathan Vale: One more idea -- one problem is that the RA should be able to meet with and question SC prospects before they join the SC; putting the full burden on the RA could allow a prospect to run the clock simply by not being available. If we have a 30 day process, it should run from the time the prospect present him or herself IN PERSON before the RA for questioning with regard to SC membership.
Shep Titian: Calli do you have any changes you'd be happy with
Callipygian Christensen: Pat, I thin you would be surised now much some areas of our views agree, however putting what you have forward conerns me as yet another 'bandaid' that fixes the surface but doesnt deal with what is underneath
Patroklus Murakami: i disagree. i think it's a pretty clear, comprehensive reform. there are other issues around SC procedures which im less interested in. i see those as being for the SC to sort out
Callipygian Christensen: There is a history of that happening in a lot of areas - action A looks great, but the ramifications of it show up later..its happened in elections, in citizenship.its a large part of*why* the SC needs reform to fix previous 'fixes'
Delia Lake raises her hand again
Beathan Vale: I think we need to figure out what the SC is and is for -- right now it's rather schizophrenic
Shep Titian: Delia
Patroklus Murakami: i agree beathan
Rosie Gray: I apologize folks but I have to go... rl meeting. I request a 7 day vote on any further motions.
Shep Titian: Ok thanks Rosie
Delia Lake: yes to Beathan's point. a couple of years ago there was a push to institute a real life judiciary. that initiative failed, imo for some very good reasons. but in the aftermath the mess was not cleaned up but sections of it remained in the law and in the constitution and was assigned to the SC, changing part of the SC purview without much thougt on the matter, again imo
Delia Lake: this whole issue needs to be sorted out
Shep Titian: It does .. certainly won't be sorted here and now
Patroklus Murakami: perhaps we should continue the discussion on the forums? my intention was to start a discussion with a clear proposal rather than vote on it now
Shep Titian: But I can sense some coming togethers
Beathan Vale: I admit being confused about what the SC could possibly be for if not to serve a judicial function
Shep Titian: Ok .. so is everyone happy to take it to forum?
Delia Lake: the hodge podge of functions and the SC constitutional structure do not match up right now
Callipygian Christensen: Pat (I have already expressed this to Beathan) I fully support a reform of the SC that identifies clearly and simply what it does and how it does it - but I want it to address all of those odds and ends of old legislation and process so that it isnt handicapped from the get go
Beathan Vale: otherwise it seems to have a theoretical, academic function rather than a governemental one -- kind of a think tank -- but if so, why is it in governemnt and the Constitution
Beathan Vale: and why does it need a formal mandate rather than just being a discussion group
Shep Titian: Ok I'm calling this one for now
Shep Titian: it needs adressing in a very detailed manner
Beathan Vale: I will put together some ideas and post on the forums -- springboarding from my discussion with Calli --
Patroklus Murakami: great!
Beathan Vale: but I have different points of emphasis, so it will be different
Shep Titian: Good thanks Beathan
Callipygian Christensen: Beathan, I wuld love to address that question but we'd be here all day..I hope we get the chance to do so though.
Shep Titian: We would expect nothing less Beathan
Shep Titian: ok . I have a slightly contentious one
Shep Titian: Term lenths .. do we still need them?
Delia Lake: please lets have the discussion of purpose before structure
Beathan Vale: Delia, I agree with that
Beathan Vale: I don't like term limits -- but we don't have enough active candidates
Shep Titian: That's my point
Beathan Vale: But I think the wobbling between having them and not is problematic
Callipygian Christensen: and please can we all read some ofthe history as to the'wy' of the SC
Trebor Warcliffe: Beathan didnt you support term limits the last time it was approved?
Patroklus Murakami: if we are on to the next topic? i move that we repeal CDSL 13-07 Term Limits Act
Beathan Vale: I mean I support term limits
Beathan Vale: I don't support having the same people run again and again
Shep Titian: Rosie can't stand for the next RA .. I'm not assuming she would want to .. but we are short falling as it is
Trebor Warcliffe: Neither do I but when its only the same people who choose to participate than what do you do?
Beathan Vale: But, we need candidates. Rather than constantly turn term limits on or off -- I would suggest adding a period in which an otherwise term limited cnadidate can declare if there are insufficient candidates to have a contested election
Patroklus Murakami waits to hear a seconder...
Shep Titian: So you support no one .. rather than one who is willing but has sat already?
Beathan Vale: Say -- the week following the ordinary candidate declaratioons
Trebor Warcliffe: More drama that's not needed
Shep Titian: Sorry Pat .. second
Beathan Vale: Shep -- no I think we need balance between leaving the door open but working to make sure the room is not emplty
Trebor Warcliffe: If you dont want teh same people running again and again than get more poeple involved
Beathan Vale: I don't see how that would produce drama
Patroklus Murakami: i'm opposed to term limits full stop. they lead to what we have now - good ppl who are ineligible due to a short-sighted rule
Trebor Warcliffe: EXACTLY PAT
Patroklus Murakami: why can't we just let ppl choose?
Trebor Warcliffe: YUP
Shep Titian: Trebor!
Patroklus Murakami: if the same old faces keep standing ppl can choose to vote or not vote for them?
Beathan Vale: well -- I oppose full abolition of term limits, although I would approve a process to abrogate it in favor of contested elections if there is a shortage of candidates
Trebor Warcliffe: Correct, if youre not hapy with who is in officwe than get more people involved
Patroklus Murakami: that just sounds too complicated to me beathan. let's keep it simple eh?
Beathan Vale: touchee
Patroklus Murakami: LOL!
Shep Titian: As with everything it can be changed l;ater
Trebor Warcliffe: Which gets rather redundant I might add. This term yes next term no.
Shep Titian: I don't see a plethora of new people coming along and getting involved .. I can only think of one at present
Shep Titian: Trebor!
Trebor Warcliffe: Yes Shep?
Shep Titian: You did'nt ask to speak
Trebor Warcliffe: My apologies.
