Proposal for LUC help to Chancellor on building reviews

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Kyoko
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Proposal for LUC help to Chancellor on building reviews

Post by Kyoko »

I was sure this was a discussion other than on the LUC Discussion forum, which I cannot respond to. I apologize if I have missed something.
link: https://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?t=9809

My response is as follows.
1. It is the chancellor's option as to how s/he organizes enforcement of the covenants. The logical choice is via the EMs who are part of the executive branch.
2. Any enforcement should be limited to the factual items listed in the relevant covenant.
3. "not very well made, or simply because it doesn't fit the landscape" are not covenant items and are matters of opinion, thus not enforceable under the covenants.
4. Going beyond the covenant is a slippery slope in my opinion. We don't need to set up more hurdles than the covenant permits as it is yet another way in which we become unwelcoming. Work with someone yes, but not pretend that aesthetic issues beyond those stated in the covenant are enforceable in covenant terms.

You know my perspective on building community. I won't repeat.

As chancellor I oppose this proposal. Of course in a month you may have a chancellor more amenable that I. But I like to think I have earned the right to have my views taken seriously.

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Han Held
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Re: Proposal for LUC help to Chancellor on building reviews

Post by Han Held »

Kyoko I am very appreciative that you've written this -thank you!
TLDR: Kyoko is right, and I agree with her 1,000%.

Kyoko wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:10 pm

I was sure this was a discussion other than on the LUC Discussion forum, which I cannot respond to. I apologize if I have missed something.
link: https://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?t=9809

My response is as follows.
1. It is the chancellor's option as to how s/he organizes enforcement of the covenants. The logical choice is via the EMs who are part of the executive branch.
2. Any enforcement should be limited to the factual items listed in the relevant covenant.
3. "not very well made, or simply because it doesn't fit the landscape" are not covenant items and are matters of opinion, thus not enforceable under the covenants.
4. Going beyond the covenant is a slippery slope in my opinion. We don't need to set up more hurdles than the covenant permits as it is yet another way in which we become unwelcoming. Work with someone yes, but not pretend that aesthetic issues beyond those stated in the covenant are enforceable in covenant terms.

You know my perspective on building community. I won't repeat.

As chancellor I oppose this proposal. Of course in a month you may have a chancellor more amenable that I. But I like to think I have earned the right to have my views taken seriously.

Specificallly, I want to amplify the following points:

Kyoko wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:10 pm

I was sure this was a discussion other than on the LUC Discussion forum, which I cannot respond to. I apologize if I have missed something.
link: https://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?t=9809
3. "not very well made, or simply because it doesn't fit the landscape" are not covenant items and are matters of opinion, thus not enforceable under the covenants.

I am renting parcels in NFS that I'm in essence squatting on because I know I'd recieve a hearty "thumbs down" if I built on them -that I would be told my builds are not good enough (which, honestly, grates my nerves on a number of levels in addition to any personal offense meant or not meant).

Kyoko wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:10 pm

4. Going beyond the covenant is a slippery slope in my opinion. We don't need to set up more hurdles than the covenant permits as it is yet another way in which we become unwelcoming. Work with someone yes, but not pretend that aesthetic issues beyond those stated in the covenant are enforceable in covenant terms.

Our laws are opaque enough that they can be interpreted to mean whatever the enforcer desires them to mean. There is no means to change this at this current time and I expect this state of affairs to remain for the indefinite future.

Kyoko wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:10 pm

As chancellor I oppose this proposal. Of course in a month you may have a chancellor more amenable that I. But I like to think I have earned the right to have my views taken seriously.

I have declared myself for the next RA term, and I not only take your views seriously; I share a good deal of your concern. I hope you'll be available to ask for your advice inworld during this upcoming term (although you've done MORE than your part, so if you decide to take a 6 month break it would be more than understandable).

---
"I could talk talk talk, talk myself to death
But I believe I would only waste my breath" -Roxy Music "Remake, remodel"
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Re: Proposal for LUC help to Chancellor on building reviews

Post by Han Held »

Rosie Gray wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:01 pm

When a building is inappropriate either because it doesn't fit the theme of the region properly or because the building itself is not very well made, or simply because it doesn't fit the landscape, this presents problems because there are gray areas around the ideas of theme and also there are different levels of what people view as acceptable in a build. The ideas here are to help resolve these problems.

Please make comments and further suggestions!

The way to resolve these problems is to stick to one, single criteria: does the build fit the theme of the sim yes or no.

The idea of "building itself is not very well made" specifically raises my hackles because it excludes my builds -it excludes those who are learning to build as well.

It is a barrier to entry in terms of shaping and participating in our community, it's bogus.

Let's get down to brass tacks here: what is the freaking goal of the CDS going forward; to have an open, user-participating community, or to have a closed, stifling but oh so very pretty group of model sims?

If you choose open -risking ugly but on-theme builds is a part of it.
If you choose closed -then enjoy your declining participation numbers.

Those numbers will continue to decline because there's no point in playing a game you're unable to influence or leave your mark upon.

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Almut Brunswick
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Re: Proposal for LUC help to Chancellor on building reviews

Post by Almut Brunswick »

Han Held wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:18 pm
Rosie Gray wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:01 pm

When a building is inappropriate either because it doesn't fit the theme of the region properly or because the building itself is not very well made, or simply because it doesn't fit the landscape, this presents problems because there are gray areas around the ideas of theme and also there are different levels of what people view as acceptable in a build. The ideas here are to help resolve these problems.

Please make comments and further suggestions!

The way to resolve these problems is to stick to one, single criteria: does the build fit the theme of the sim yes or no.

The idea of "building itself is not very well made" specifically raises my hackles because it excludes my builds -it excludes those who are learning to build as well.

It is a barrier to entry in terms of shaping and participating in our community, it's bogus.

Let's get down to brass tacks here: what is the freaking goal of the CDS going forward; to have an open, user-participating community, or to have a closed, stifling but oh so very pretty group of model sims?

If you choose open -risking ugly but on-theme builds is a part of it.
If you choose closed -then enjoy your declining participation numbers.

Those numbers will continue to decline because there's no point in playing a game you're unable to influence or leave your mark upon.

Thank you so much for bringing it on the point! The bar is raised high and even excludes halfway experienced Blender users like me (because of missing bump maps almost nobody would recognize...).

For sure, I see and appreciate the idea behind to achieve a harmonic ensemble of buildings when there is a theme agreed. But when we hinder the self-building of houses because of really minor details while we don't object that some people use to buy excessively IMHO ugly foreign creeations which allegedly meet the self-defined high standards, I just can scratch my head. Even when there are the best reasons in the world to proceed like this without any changes, I agree with Han that this will scare off a lot of people potentially willing to settle down in the CDS.

When I personally would start to be fussy, I could say: "Most half-timber houses at Neufreistadt are looking Normannic lke you can see them in Northern France and Belgium. You won't find any single house in that style at Rothenburg op de Tauber which is the RL template of NFS. So they actually should be completely removed in favour of authentic South German Fachwerk." Or I could object that the town gate close to my store is a LI grave and could be built much more effective and authentic in times of mesh. But would it really help to improve?

So better to tolerate a certain variance and imperfection in our rules instead of blocking the few creative minds we currently have (and hopefully can win in the future) by way too narrow-minded standards, especially when they often appear more like personal preferences than objective criterions. Honestly and despite all my appreciation for our CDS community - this is a point that really annoys me!

Just to give an example how inconsequent we in fact are and how we are seen from outside: Recently a friend asked me if I would know some land to settle down for one of her friends. I proposed her to look around in the CDS sims, but also stated that there are some standards to meet the respective sim theme. Some minutes later, she sent me a Gyazo picture of our MoCA building and said: "And how does fit that bunker in your strict rules?" :D

Almut

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Lilith Ivory
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Re: Proposal for LUC help to Chancellor on building reviews

Post by Lilith Ivory »

@ Kyoko

CDSL 34-01 Land Use Commission Act (Revision of CDSL 21-01 by RA 13 February 2021)
https://cdsdemocracy.org/faqs/cdsl-34-0 ... uary-2021/
States:
(D) The LUC is obliged to collaborate closely with the Chancellor in an advisory role. This way, the LUC shall assist the Chancellor in fulfilling his/her constitutional tasks with respect to land use and to help integrate new buildings and infrastructure into the landscape. This comprises, but is not limited to trees, rocks, water, roads, parcels, permanent decor, CDS-owned infrastructure and terraforming.

Of course it is out of question and clearly posted in Rosies proposal that the Chancellor has the right the disagree with the advices of the LUC

2) If a building is rejected and the Chancellor has not been one of the inspectors, that it immediately be reported to the Chancellor who can accept the recommendation or reject it.

But it is NOT within the power of the chancellor to forbid the LUC to do what the LUC Act orders the LUC to do.

Who will be the next Chancellor anyway? At the moment I don’t see one appear at the horizon.
We have to get ready to keep CDS going without a leader of the executive team and allowing the LUC to do it’s assigned job is one step in the right direction.

"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."
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Re: Proposal for LUC help to Chancellor on building reviews

Post by Lilith Ivory »

Dear Han ,

Your post gave me a very lot to think about and I agree with you.

The CDS has to be a place where citizens are encouraged to build their own houses.
(There is only a hand full of builders in SL who are able to build what I consider a „perfect“ house and I stoped building myself a long time ago as I would never be able to meet my self set standards. - But that’s my own decision and should not be enforced by a covenant)

The CDS will never be able to compete with the Linden homes and some real estate communities where a variety of houses plus premade gardens come out of a rezzer for the tenant to choose from. Those places look lovely but sterile and I would never want to live there.

Perhaps instead of discouraging people to build their own houses we should make it a unique selling proposition besides us being a democracy that people are encouraged to build and can get help from experienced builders if wanted as long as those buildings fit a basic covenant.

Of course if we decide to go that way we might have to live with citizens giving up a parcel if they don’t like what their neighbor does on a parcel.

The way to resolve these problems is to stick to one, single criteria: does the build fit the theme of the sim yes or no.

We do need high limits and in some cases a set back so the value of neighbor parcels does not get decreased

The idea of "building itself is not very well made" specifically raises my hackles because it excludes my builds -it excludes those who are learning to build as well.

I agree

"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."
Terry Pratchett
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Re: Proposal for LUC help to Chancellor on building reviews

Post by Kyoko »

I agree entirely Lilith. covenants should deal with setbacks,height and style, not aesthetic criteria. I like your proposal of encouraging building with help from one of you who do build well. And Lilith, you are a fine builder.

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