Covenant Task Force Meeting Log - 15th Nov 2007

[Moon Adamant]

[14:13] You: ok guys
[14:13] You: all set
[14:14] You: please click the two cubes for agenda and summary of last meeting
[14:14] Sonja Strom: Thank you moon.
[14:14] You: It will load the links
[14:14] You: sorry, this should have been done in time, but my pshop was really messing my machine
[14:14] Dnate Mars: oh, and are we going to build for windlight or the normal rendering?
[14:14] Sonja Strom: no problem...
[14:15] Sonja Strom: we are here talking already...
[14:15] Sleazy Writer: Dnate > marketing with Windlight might be interesting
[14:15] Arria Perreault: Hi Rose
[14:15] Sleazy Writer: Hi Rose
[14:15] You: i wanted to ask for a secretary to help me in thsi meeting
[14:15] You: hi Rose
[14:15] Sonja Strom: hi Rose.
[14:15] Rose Springvale: hi everyong, sorry for the tardiness
[14:15] Sonja Strom: What would the secretary do?
[14:15] Dnate Mars: oh crap, the map is upside down
[14:15] Jon Seattle: hi Rose
[14:15] You: Secretary to please copy the text of the voting motion and count the votes
[14:16] You: last week was a bit confusing
[14:16] Sonja Strom: OK, I can do that, if you agree.
[14:16] Rose Springvale: yay Sonja!
[14:16] You: thank you very much
[14:16] Jon Seattle: Yea
[14:16] You: ok, everyone, please add Sonja too by refraining to speak while a vote is in progress
[14:16] Arria Perreault: ty
[14:17] You: aid*
[14:17] You: pulls up agenda
[14:17] You: before starting with the zones and typologies discussion again
[14:17] You: i would like to discuss several simpler items
[14:17] You: so let's start by discussing terraforming
[14:18] You: should it be allowed?
[14:18] Dnate Mars: no
[14:18] Rose Springvale: i think it should to a limited extent
[14:18] You: should it be allowed only with superview by an officer?
[14:18] Dnate Mars: well, no, without approval by the Chancellor
[14:18] Rose Springvale: it is very hard to buld without some terraforming
[14:18] Sonja Strom: yes, so long as it is within the covenant.
[14:19] You: i am a bit afraid of allowing terraforming not superviewed
[14:19] Dnate Mars: Yes, it can go very bad
[14:19] Dnate Mars: and sometimes it is very had to fix
[14:19] Arria Perreault: i really think that every important change in building and building projects should be submitted to the Chancellor
[14:19] Rose Springvale: well, lots of sims allow +- 4m
[14:19] Sonja Strom: definitely only with permission (which would include supervision).
[14:19] Arria Perreault: as in RL...
[14:19] Sonja Strom: exactly.
[14:19] Sleazy Writer: what about limiting terraforming to 1 meter? that should allow people to get rid of bumps
[14:20] Sleazy Writer: 1 meter is still half an avatar
[14:20] Rose Springvale: if there were soemone available in all time zones
[14:20] Sonja Strom: good idea.
[14:20] Rose Springvale: but ...
[14:20] You: well, the issue here seems to me that it is a question of enforcement
[14:20] Dnate Mars: I don't think that limit is possible withteh current estate settings
[14:20] You: let me check the sim tools
[14:20] Dnate Mars: it is all or none
[14:20] Sonja Strom: it can always be returned to the original, or?
[14:20] Rose Springvale: i thought you could set it
[14:20] You: yes, Sonja, it can - all teh sim at once
[14:20] Sonja Strom: I see.
[14:21] You: and Rose and all, estate tools allow to define a limit to terraform
[14:21] Sonja Strom: That could be bad...
[14:21] Jon Seattle: yes, you can set a number of meters
[14:21] You: meaning that we can config the terrain, and THEN set the limit before selling
[14:21] Rose Springvale: that's my preference
[14:21] You: so perhaps allow terraform with limits?
[14:21] Rose Springvale: having built in CN with hillside
[14:21] Sonja Strom: that is my view.
[14:21] Sleazy Writer: 4 meters (2 x avatar) seems like a lot to me
[14:21] Dnate Mars: I would rather not have them set as on
[14:22] Rose Springvale: with the slope though
[14:22] Dnate Mars: since we are trying very had to keep this natural
[14:22] Rose Springvale: to be able to nestle into the mounain
[14:22] Rose Springvale: and not have gound through the floor...
[14:22] You: can we compromise at 2 meters freely - and special permit by the Exec to terraform more (with supervision?)
[14:22] Dnate Mars: we don't want a bunch of perfectly flat plot
[14:22] Rose Springvale: sorry for typing, i'll get my glasses
[14:23] Dnate Mars: that is still up to a 4 meter change
[14:23] Rose Springvale: will the grade of building sites geterally be flat?
[14:23] Arria Perreault: i agree that we have to avoid unatural slope
[14:23] You: Rose, the plots are in the lightest slopes possible
[14:23] Rose Springvale: you see the point of my q?
[14:23] You: but yes, teh terrains are sloped a bit
[14:23] Jon Seattle: Well the other thing is you can "bake" the original terrain, allowing the estate manager to restore any individual plot to the original.
[14:23] Arria Perreault: all plots are double prims, so it possible to build a terrace with walls
[14:24] Sonja Strom: For example, I would prefer the brick roads in NFSnot have land coming up through them - at least most of the time.
[14:24] Rose Springvale: perhaps when we deal with footprint...
[14:24] You: Jon, only the whole sim at once
[14:24] Rose Springvale: yes sonja
[14:24] Sonja Strom: Occasionally for character is OK.
[14:24] Rose Springvale: tht's my point with interiors
[14:24] Sonja Strom: yes
[14:24] Jon Seattle: Moon, no you can do it plot by plot.
[14:24] Jon Seattle: The baking is the whole sim
[14:24] Jon Seattle: but restore is more limited
[14:24] You: but you have to prepare the raw for that, right?
[14:24] Rose Springvale: if the grade of a lot is more than 4 m
[14:25] Rose Springvale: the only choice becomes raising the structure
[14:25] Sonja Strom: or altering it.
[14:25] Dnate Mars: I think that a +/- of 1 or 2 would be good... we don't want little sections of land coming up on people
[14:25] Rose Springvale: soem of the pictures you all have found have cottages nestled
[14:26] Sonja Strom: yes, as in RL.
[14:26] Jon Seattle: I wonder if steep terrain might not be harder to work with -- perhaps minimal terriforming can help with that
[14:26] Dnate Mars: Anything more would require the approvel of the Chancellor
[14:26] You: i would agree with Dnate, +2 and -2
[14:26] You: that is 4 metres
[14:26] Sonja Strom: with permission.
[14:26] You: max
[14:26] Rose Springvale: assuming reasonable application depending on the lot
[14:26] Sleazy Writer: hm .. 4 is a lot
[14:26] Rose Springvale: max even with permission?
[14:27] Rose Springvale: only plus or minus two
[14:27] Dnate Mars: no, with permission you can do more
[14:27] Rose Springvale: wont' ever be 4
[14:27] You: Sleazy, but i think we may have to allow for something
[14:27] Dnate Mars: We could do a +/- 1
[14:27] You: otherwise you will get also builds in crane's feet, etc
[14:27] Sleazy Writer: that's 2 avatars .. and simply ask the Chancellor if you want more - nothing wrong with asking
[14:28] Rose Springvale: yes there is
[14:28] You: ok
[14:28] Sleazy Writer: oh sorry .. +/- 1 is one avatar in lenght
[14:28] Sleazy Writer: a decent bump
[14:28] Rose Springvale: the chancellors availablity is limited
[14:28] You: well, i remember
[14:28] Rose Springvale: and people are from all over
[14:28] You: when NFS was constricted
[14:28] Sonja Strom: perhaps another authority besides the Chancellor?
[14:28] Arria Perreault: they can write the Chancellor
[14:28] You: and you had to go and bug Sudane everytime you had to smooth something
[14:28] Rose Springvale: if you have a house ready to locate, you dont' want to wait for permission to fix the ground coming trhough
[14:28] You: can we compromise then
[14:29] Dnate Mars: The office of the Chancellor could asign others for approval
[14:29] Sonja Strom: yes, I had to get permission from Sudane for my house.
[14:29] You: at +1/-1, and get Chanc and janitors with terrain perms?
[14:29] Rose Springvale: i think it's too low
[14:29] Sonja Strom: because the roof will be less than 60 degrees.
[14:29] Rose Springvale: +2 -2 feels like compromise
[14:29] Dnate Mars: I think +/-2 is good
[14:30] Rose Springvale: i'd prefer unlimited so long as the general grade is maintained..
[14:30] Sonja Strom: upa, I said Sudane. I meant Aliasi.
[14:30] You: ok guys
[14:30] Jon Seattle: Sonja, are you in the valley? That rule was removed a lond time ago in the valley.
[14:30] You: we all agree that up from a certain limit, a permit should be got, right?
[14:30] Sleazy Writer: okay I can live with +2 -2
[14:30] Sonja Strom: No, I am in the NW corner.
[14:30] You: ok
[14:30] Rose Springvale: okay i can too
[14:30] Sonja Strom: with the talking cow.
[14:30] You: shall we vote then?
[14:30] Dnate Mars: yes
[14:30] You: i propose fr vote hmmm
[14:31] You: "Terraform is allowed with a difference of 2 meters, and further terraforming must be approved by the Chancelor"
[14:31] You: amends to this text?
[14:31] You: within* perhaps
[14:31] Dnate Mars: from the final baked terrain
[14:31] Rose Springvale: i'd specify positive or negative
[14:32] You: ok hmm
[14:32] Sleazy Writer: and leave out the "chancellor" -- he can give a waiver for anything
[14:32] Sonja Strom: Perhaps, something like "responsible governing body."
[14:32] Dnate Mars: just leave it at must be approved
[14:32] Sonja Strom: that way it could change.
[14:32] Sonja Strom: that's good.
[14:32] You: "Terraform is allowed within a difference of +2/-2 meters, and further terraforming must be approved."
[14:33] You: ok, Sonja, taht's teh text
[14:33] You: all agreeing say Aye
[14:33] Sleazy Writer votes aye
[14:33] Dnate Mars: Aye
[14:33] Rose Springvale: aye
[14:33] You: aye
[14:33] Sonja Strom: aye
[14:33] You: arria is afk
[14:33] You: so passed
[14:33] Jon Seattle: aye
[14:34] Rose Springvale: hey Jamie
[14:34] Sleazy Writer: Hi Jamie
[14:34] Jamie Palisades: Cheers
[14:34] You: hey jamie, you're going to be flogged
[14:34] Rose Springvale: hehe
[14:34] Sonja Strom: Arria, your vote?
[14:34] Jamie Palisades: general principles? or for a particular reason?
[14:34] Arria Perreault: sorry, i was away
[14:34] Arria Perreault: aye
[14:34] Sonja Strom: ok, thanks.
[14:35] You: ahem last meeting ahem
[14:35] Rose Springvale: because you stood us up !
[14:35] You: thanks
[14:35] You: Jamie, please click teh two cubes
[14:35] Sonja Strom: 6 for, 0 agains.
[14:35] Rose Springvale: he SAYS he was on an airplane
[14:35] Sonja Strom: against.
[14:35] You: tehy'll link to the relevant pages
[14:35] Rose Springvale: do you believe they dont' have sl on airplanes?
[14:35] You: btw, everyone, this meeting will be recorded
[14:35] Arria Perreault: Hi Jamie
[14:35] Jamie Palisades: sigh, got stuck out of world, sorry - Ruthed and frozen on the way back in. Shrug
[14:35] You: ok guys
[14:35] You: another brief point
[14:36] Jon Seattle: brb
[14:36] You: property restrictions
[14:36] You: how much land can a group or individual own in AM?
[14:36] Dnate Mars: 1 plot each
[14:36] Rose Springvale: why?
[14:36] You: for teh other sims, the limit is at 4096, shall we make it here as well?
[14:36] Rose Springvale: must be meters
[14:36] Rose Springvale: yes
[14:36] Dnate Mars: why does it have to be in sq m?
[14:37] Rose Springvale: because there are so many sizes of lots
[14:37] Dnate Mars: So?
[14:37] You: well, a person or group can have several plots
[14:37] Dnate Mars: you want more land, buy a bigger plot
[14:37] You: or can't they?
[14:37] Rose Springvale: i think they should
[14:37] Sonja Strom: What if someone wants another plot for prims?
[14:37] Rose Springvale: a group can expand their operations too
[14:37] Dnate Mars: but still, 1 plot per persom in this sim
[14:37] Rose Springvale: per person.. not group
[14:37] Rose Springvale: and i disagree. i think we should stay consistent
[14:37] Sonja Strom: Personally, I see no good reason for such a restriction.
[14:38] Dnate Mars: I don't, differnet land, different rules
[14:38] You: mind also that this covenant can not contradict existing CDS legislation, and that there is a specific act concerning group land
[14:38] Dnate Mars: For one thing, these are double prim lots
[14:38] Sonja Strom: I have two lots, and I use them both.
[14:38] Dnate Mars: a 4096 in here is like a 8192 in the other 2 sims
[14:39] Rose Springvale: doesn't matter
[14:39] Dnate Mars: we don't allow that
[14:39] Sonja Strom: no?
[14:39] Rose Springvale: some of us have unlimited prim needs
[14:39] Rose Springvale: yes we do
[14:39] Sleazy Writer: thanks for that valuable remark, Moon
[14:39] Sonja Strom: I purchased them both at the same time from the same avatar.
[14:39] You: lol, was that sarcastic?
[14:39] Dnate Mars: no we don't. The rules state that only 4096 can be owned in a sim?
[14:39] You: mind everyone
[14:39] Rose Springvale: sory wan't clear waht you were referring to
[14:40] You: one thing is to discuss number of plots, another to discuss total area
[14:40] Jamie Palisades: Rose, I don't follow you, this time, sorry. Do you think someone in a double prim sim *needs* prim lots? Or are you just saying that all 3 sims should have uniform, as the paramount rule, rules no matter what?
[14:40] Rose Springvale: the limitation proposed was on number of lots per person or group
[14:40] Rose Springvale: with varied sizes of lots
[14:41] Dnate Mars: plus, I don't want someone to own all of the D lots on this sim
[14:41] Jon Seattle: Well, if Dnate's proposal passes, the m2 is limited in any case.
[14:41] Jamie Palisades: and Moon, I bet the exec would find it *much* easier to police # of lots than # of m2
[14:41] Rose Springvale: i dont' find a restriction of number of lots helpful.. especially to groups
[14:41] Sleazy Writer: I totally agree with Dnate about"owning all D lots' ... 8 x 512 = 4096 = 1 A lot
[14:41] You: Dnate, mind taht we can make an exception for D plots
[14:41] Rose Springvale: so one lot per category
[14:42] Jamie Palisades: hmm - what's the underlying value here? SPreading the opportunity around? AVoiding monoculture?
[14:42] Sonja Strom: if there can be exceptions, that might be OK with me.
[14:42] You: hmmm, i can't agree with that, i think
[14:42] Jon Seattle: Well, dnate was saying earlier 1 lot per person
[14:42] Jon Seattle: Dnate, still your proposal?
[14:42] Rose Springvale: or group Jon
[14:42] You: that would give a person 4096+2048+1024+512
[14:42] Dnate Mars: that is almost 1/2 the sim!
[14:42] Rose Springvale: in addtion to sq me.. but ...
[14:42] Jamie Palisades admires all the power of of 2 dancing in the air, though
[14:42] Rose Springvale: my point is there can be ten different people in a gorup
[14:42] You: i would rather have a limit in m2 and let people compound teh limit of the plots they wished
[14:43] Jon Seattle: ah, Jon loves the powers of two
[14:43] Rose Springvale: especially given the varied locations of the lots
[14:43] Dnate Mars: I think for this sim there is value in not allowing that to happen
[14:43] Rose Springvale: a d lot near the monastery is very different from a d lot near CN
[14:43] Rose Springvale: why dnate?
[14:43] Rose Springvale: what is the objection?
[14:43] Arria Perreault: it's maybe easier (in msq), but I agree for a special regulation for D plots
[14:43] You: and me thinking this would be a smooth point
[14:44] Sleazy Writer: Compromise: "Per person a maximum of 2 parcels may be owned, which must be of different sizes" .. This is OK with the law since NFS has also a limit on City plots (and that's probably per person too)
[14:44] Dnate Mars: I think that having more open plots of different people will help teh CDS grow
[14:44] Dnate Mars: What about groups of people?
[14:44] Rose Springvale: well, open unsold lots wont' help
[14:44] Jon Seattle: I tend to agree with Dnate on that
[14:45] Sleazy Writer: My compromise allows A + B = 6000 sqm or 12000 in prims ... or D + C = 1500 sqm (3000 in prims)
[14:45] You: what about
[14:45] Sonja Strom: What if one person/group wanted to have DH6 and DH7?
[14:45] Dnate Mars: plus, we will be spreading our risk that someone owning many lots all of a sudden doesn't pay
[14:45] You: building on Sleazy's compromise
[14:45] You: this:
[14:45] Sleazy Writer: Sonja > My compromise allows that .. 2 x D divided in two is 1 x D per person
[14:45] Sonja Strom: oh, yes.
[14:46] You: Per person a maximum of 2 parcels may be owned, which must be of different sizes. A group cannot own more than 4096 m2 in total area of teh parcels. No person can hold more than 1 D plot"
[14:46] You: mind that you can't limit the D plots for groups
[14:46] You: because you would then bar the creation of teh Almshouse Group
[14:46] Dnate Mars: so, that means that you can own 1 A plot, or a B+C or a C+D or a B+D
[14:46] Sleazy Writer: Moon > that last part is unncessary .. "must be of different sizes" prevents 2 D parcels to be owned by 1 person
[14:47] You: ah, you're right
[14:47] You: so hmmmm
[14:47] Dnate Mars: I can see that as being useful
[14:47] You: "Per person a maximum of 2 parcels may be owned, which must be of different sizes. A group cannot own more than 4096 m2 in the sum area of the parcels set to the group.
[14:47] You: do you think this is a compromise you could live with?
[14:48] Dnate Mars: I can live with that
[14:48] Rose Springvale: hmm
[14:48] Sleazy Writer still thinking
[14:48] Rose Springvale: so the Monastery group
[14:48] Rose Springvale: and all it's members
[14:48] Rose Springvale: are limited
[14:48] Jamie Palisades: I have to say, I'm in favor of a limit. For one thing I want our total CDS anded citizen count to grow - for another, I'd like our CDS credit risk from rentals to stay *somewhat* diversified.
[14:48] Jamie Palisades: But
[14:49] You: they are if they intend to hold all their land in THE Monastery group
[14:49] You: which isn't mandatory
[14:49] Arria Perreault: well i think that the way we will own this land will not be like a private property
[14:49] Rose Springvale: so we need per person limits for other group membership, which is what we have in the rest, or at least CN
[14:49] Dnate Mars: right, someone could go apart from the group and be their own person and buy an A plot if they wish
[14:49] Jamie Palisades: ... If every club of oldies in NFS gets its own "NGO" group, and they don;t count against the limit, we've sort of only enacted the rule against newcomers
[14:49] Jamie Palisades: perish the thought
[14:49] You: no no Jamie
[14:50] Jon Seattle: Well, group memebrship and owning group land are two different things. Not all members of a group need to agree to pay for group land. If they do not pay, they do not get the citizenship benifits however.
[14:50] You: let's think a bit to what groups are for
[14:50] You: the Monastery Group holds the Monastery
[14:50] Sleazy Writer: New compromise "Per person a maximum of 2 parcel, with a maximum of 4096 sqm. may be owned, the parcels must be of a different size (Nb: nothing about groupland)"
[14:50] You: but it doesn't make sense that Arria or Tan, say, set their private houses to the Monastery group
[14:50] Dnate Mars: very true, and NGO's are special groups. They aren't counted in the land
[14:51] You: which would mean that i, being in the monastery group as well, could go into Arria's house and move her furniture around
[14:51] Dnate Mars: why is that?
[14:51] Rose Springvale: hates to sound like certain parties.. but we do make it complicated for new people to figure things out.
[14:51] Arria Perreault: in any case, I will not that ...
[14:51] You: yes, we do
[14:51] Rose Springvale: simple would be better imho
[14:51] You: and i would liek this covenant to be clear as water
[14:51] Jamie Palisades: Well, just hypothetically, If I am a member of (say) CDSF, the New Guild, Shining Path, and Palisades Holdings .. and each of the four owns a parcel, plus I own a fifth as me ... where am I on those limits?
[14:51] Dnate Mars: What I meant was that a group can own the land, but if a member isn't paying directly for that group land, the land totals won't count against them
[14:52] Sleazy Writer: NB: MoCA is paid for by MoCA members, but the land is definitely not owned by Delia or Rubaiyat
[14:52] Jamie Palisades: I agree with Moon - which is why my hypo concerns me
[14:52] You: Jamie, i believe Sleazy's rule is clear
[14:52] You: even if you were in the Vatican Irregulars too, you would only be able to hold 2 parcels
[14:52] Jon Seattle: Shining path? what is that?
[14:53] Jamie Palisades: Beats me
[14:53] Jon Seattle: lol, I hope you are not equating shining brow and shining path!
[14:53] Jamie Palisades: Something in Laos as I recall
[14:53] You: so shall we compromise on two parcels per person, max being 4096 m2?
[14:53] Sonja Strom: Peru
[14:54] Jon Seattle: No, south america
[14:54] Jon Seattle: a terrorist group
[14:54] You: different sizes?
[14:54] Dnate Mars: I think that if a group owns land for a group purpose, then it should not be held against the indeviduals in the group
[14:54] Sleazy Writer: Moon > No ... I rather limit A to 1 parcel max .. 8k of prims is enough
[14:54] Sleazy Writer: per person
[14:54] Sleazy Writer: 8k = 4 x Rose's office I think ..
[14:54] You: Sleazy
[14:54] Dnate Mars: 4096 max covers that
[14:55] You: exactly
[14:55] Sleazy Writer: okay
[14:55] Sonja Strom: Hi Alexicon.
[14:55] You: if you have A1, then you've hit it
[14:55] Sleazy Writer: Hi Alexicon
[14:55] Rose Springvale: hey alex
[14:55] Arria Perreault: Hi Alex
[14:55] Dnate Mars: so, 2 plots of diffent size witha max of 4096 total?
[14:55] You: hey Alex, please check the summary and agenda
[14:55] Rose Springvale: per person?
[14:55] You: yes, per person
[14:55] Dnate Mars: per person
[14:55] Jamie Palisades: Poor Moon (sorry Jon) -- focus here - so Moon, you feel Sleazy's rule (which does not mention groups) is clear? So I am limited by it if I do not "Deed to Group", and can circumvent it freely if I do?
[14:55] Jon Seattle: shining brow was FLW's name for his school in Wisconsin
[14:56] Jon Seattle: Hi Alex
[14:56] Sleazy Writer: Moon > IM
[14:56] You: guys, please focus
[14:56] Alexicon Kurka: hi everybody
[14:56] Sleazy Writer: Hi Alexicon
[14:56] You: Jamie
[14:56] Dnate Mars: How do we handle group owned land now? Who gets the citizen rights from it now?
[14:56] Jamie Palisades: yes
[14:57] You: the Group land Act brings a bit of complication into this matter, i agree
[14:57] Rose Springvale: all citizens who own a minimum and pay at least 100L
[14:57] You: ehehe, i do, actually
[14:57] Rose Springvale: provided the land actually supports the nmber of citizens
[14:57] You: my pltaz plot is below the 144 m2
[14:58] Dnate Mars: ok, so if a person directly pays for the group owned land, there percentage of the payment for that group land will count against them in the total land they can hold
[14:58] You: and Dnate, i don't know how we handle group land now, but i undertsand it's very complex to track
[14:58] Dnate Mars: I think that is the only fair way to do it
[14:58] Rose Springvale: not really...
[14:58] Rose Springvale: because some group members will pay a minmimum
[14:58] Rose Springvale: sigh
[14:58] You: but guys
[14:59] Sleazy Writer: um, how is that relevant here?
[14:59] Rose Springvale: but i think we are okay just letting the sqm support group membership and counting it that way
[14:59] Dnate Mars: arg! NO GROUP LAND. Problem solved
[14:59] Jon Seattle: Dnate, yes that is the intension. Group land does count against the total a person can own.
[14:59] Arria Perreault: Monastery is an exception, ins't it?
[14:59] Sleazy Writer: yes
[14:59] Sonja Strom: NO GROUPS in the CDS!!!
[14:59] Sonja Strom:
[14:59] Rose Springvale: :: cries::
[14:59] You: guys, come on
[14:59] Sonja Strom: haha
[15:00] Sonja Strom: Hi thePrincess!
[15:00] You: let's try and organize this, because we do have a lot to discuss still
[15:00] Dnate Mars: can we table this and think about it more?
[15:00] You: hi Princess
[15:00] Jon Seattle: Arria, the monistary is NGO owned, a bit different
[15:00] Rose Springvale: call teh question
[15:00] ThePrincess Parisi: hi
[15:00] Arria Perreault: ok
[15:00] ThePrincess Parisi: do you mind if we watch
[15:00] Dnate Mars: come back to it in at the end?
[15:00] You: please check teh cubes for summary and agenda
[15:00] Arria Perreault: Hi Princess
[15:00] ThePrincess Parisi: hi arria
[15:00] You: ok, we'll table the group discussion to the end
[15:00] Rose Springvale: grrrr
[15:00] You: everyone who has strong opinions on teh matter, prepare your opinions
[15:00] Rose Springvale: i called the question lol
[15:01] You: sorry?
[15:01] Rose Springvale: didn't sleazy have a motion on the table?
[15:01] Moon Adamant reads back
[15:01] Sleazy Writer: Is this the text?? "Per person a maximum of 2 parcels may be owned, which must be of different sizes. A person cannot own more than 4096 m2." (And say nothing about group land, because all CDS laws are applicable in all CDS sims anyway)
[15:01] You: Sleazy, ok
[15:01] Rose Springvale: yes
[15:01] Sonja Strom: that was it.
[15:01] Jamie Palisades: :/me sitting on his hands, group-issuewise .. the suspense mounts!
[15:01] You: if Rose seconds, i'll call the vote
[15:01] Jon Seattle: I second (or third)
[15:01] You: ok
[15:02] Dnate Mars: I love grey areas :/
[15:02] Rose Springvale:
[15:02] You: all agreeing, say Aye
[15:02] You: Sonja, please note the text
[15:02] You: "Per person a maximum of 2 parcels may be owned, which must be of different sizes. A person cannot own more than 4096 m2."
[15:02] Dnate Mars: Aye
[15:02] Rose Springvale: aye
[15:02] Sleazy Writer: aye (no way back ...)
[15:02] Jamie Palisades: nay - too much room for abuse
[15:02] Arria Perreault: aye
[15:02] Sonja Strom: Abstain- I don't feel I understand it enough, but that's OK.
[15:03] You: who else?
[15:03] Sonja Strom: Alexicon?
[15:03] Sleazy Writer: Jamie can you cook up a new text in 2 minutes?
[15:03] Alexicon Kurka: I m not long enough to have an opinion on that
[15:03] Alexicon Kurka: I abstain
[15:03] Sonja Strom: OK, Jon?
[15:03] You: kk Alex
[15:04] Jon Seattle: Ah, I would prefer 1 per person if we can.
[15:04] Sonja Strom: so, no?
[15:04] Jon Seattle: abstain
[15:04] Sonja Strom: ThePrincess?
[15:04] ThePrincess Parisi: no we just got here .. abstain
[15:05] Sonja Strom: What I have is 4 yes, 4 abstain.
[15:05] Dnate Mars: I think we need to work on some CDS rules at some point in the very near future
[15:05] Rose Springvale: the best way to assure one per person is to sell
[15:05] Sonja Strom: 0 against.
[15:05] You: and i vote aye, with a certain reserve about group land - but i think the group land issue isn't solely an AM issue, and that it must be solved for all CDS
[15:05] Dnate Mars: jamie was a no
[15:05] Sonja Strom: sorry, 1 against.
[15:05] You: and you must count mine lol
[15:05] Jamie Palisades: Let's see if this passes first SW
[15:05] Jon Seattle: Indeed
[15:05] Rose Springvale: smiles
[15:06] Rose Springvale: see moon? off your list!
[15:06] Sonja Strom: What is SW?
[15:06] You: Sleazy Writer
[15:06] Rose Springvale: sleazy writer
[15:06] Rose Springvale: lol
[15:06] Sonja Strom: ha
[15:06] Sleazy Writer: I had no idea
[15:06] You: ok, Sonja, what was the count?
[15:06] Sonja Strom: 4 yes, 1 no, 4 abstain.
[15:06] Dnate Mars: that isn't a majority, is it?
[15:06] Rose Springvale: does that pass or no?
[15:07] You: no majority
[15:07] Jon Seattle: I think it does.
[15:07] Jon Seattle: no?
[15:07] ThePrincess Parisi: ill vote aye
[15:07] Sleazy Writer: Aye : Dnate + Rose + Sleazy + Arria + Moon
[15:07] Sleazy Writer: = 5
[15:07] ThePrincess Parisi: i read back
[15:07] Alexicon Kurka: well my vote does not realy count
[15:07] Jamie Palisades: Aw g'wan sure it passes. I'd say we need to do something about groups (or decide not to) in a way that takes all the similar ops across the 3 sims, and existing law, into account. How to proceed?
[15:07] You: yes it does Alex
[15:07] ThePrincess Parisi: does mine? im just vitiing
[15:07] You: everyone's vote here counts
[15:07] Jon Seattle: Alex, yes it does!
[15:07] Jon Seattle: Everyone can be a guild member
[15:07] ThePrincess Parisi: ok.. well then i vote aye after reading back
[15:07] Alexicon Kurka: ok
[15:07] You: Jmie, i don't think that that's up to us
[15:07] You: ok, so recount
[15:08] You: 6 yes, 3 abstains, 1 nay, right?
[15:08] Jon Seattle: But by voting you are agreeing to help us with Guild projects
[15:08] Sonja Strom: where do you get 6?
[15:08] Sonja Strom: I see 5 now.
[15:08] Jamie Palisades: If one MUST get formal, you don;t count abstentions as 'no' and we don;t have a 'majority' rule here that requires an absolute 50%, so plurality's enu
[15:08] Sonja Strom: Did Alexicon vote yes?
[15:08] Dnate Mars: we do, 6, 3, 1
[15:08] Jamie Palisades: Bosh, y'all, it passes . Next?
[15:08] Rose Springvale: yes, let move
[15:09] Sonja Strom: ok
[15:09] You: no, but i and Princess did
[15:09] Alexicon Kurka: I abstained
[15:09] Dnate Mars: wait, there is 11 people here
[15:09] Rose Springvale: congrats we have another!
[15:09] MT Lundquist: well count me as abstention
[15:09] MT Lundquist: as i didnt hear the motion
[15:09] Dnate Mars: 6, 4, 1
[15:09] MT Lundquist: i only just arrived
[15:09] Sleazy Writer: Hi MT
[15:09] You: ok, motion passed in any case
[15:09] Jamie Palisades: Chair's entitled to make a call - s he did - she says it pased - anyone disput it?
[15:09] You: and hello MT
[15:09] MT Lundquist: hi sleazy
[15:09] Arria Perreault: Hi MT
[15:09] MT Lundquist: moon
[15:09] MT Lundquist: everyone
[15:09] Jamie Palisades:
[15:09] Rose Springvale: next?
[15:10] You: next
[15:10] You: uh uh
[15:10] Dnate Mars: Jamie, contact me after the meeting about the group thing
[15:10] You: we have three points that will be polemic
[15:10] You: Zones
[15:10] You: Typologies
[15:10] You: Materials
[15:10] You: maybe we will start with materials
[15:10] You: i have a text to propose
[15:11] Dnate Mars: I know, everything much be made of prims!
[15:11] Jamie Palisades: OK Dnate, good, will do
[15:11] Sleazy Writer: I'm glad we don't have Brian here .. he would want sustainable recycled prims!
[15:11] Jon Seattle:
[15:11] Alexicon Kurka: lol
[15:11] Jon Seattle: I want a mesh!! A true mesh!
[15:11] You: ok, my suggestion for a text:
[15:11] Rose Springvale: where is brian!!
[15:11] Dnate Mars: 60% post-consumer recycled prims
[15:12] You: "All the buildings must be built in pre-industrial materials, namely:
[15:12] You: 1. Structural elements can be stone, brick or wood 2. Roofing elements can be wood, slate or terracota shingles, and thatch. 3. Exterior flooring elements can be brick, stone or wood. 4. Wall elements can be stone, brick, wood or stucco. 5. Door and window elements can be wood or metals, raw or painted. Large panes of glass must be partitioned by appropriate framing.
[15:12] You: "
[15:12] Dnate Mars: What is stucco?
[15:13] Rose Springvale: smiles.. what we use in texas...
[15:13] Arria Perreault: I suggest also (it is out the covenant) that we offer somewhere a packge of textures
[15:13] ThePrincess Parisi: tis taht white stuff
[15:13] Rose Springvale: cement...textured
[15:13] ThePrincess Parisi: bumpy
[15:13] Rose Springvale: colored
[15:13] Dnate Mars: like plaster?
[15:13] Rose Springvale: eys
[15:13] You: stucco is a rough to smooth appearnce
[15:13] You: can be plaster, can be cement, can be hmmm
[15:13] You: earth painted with any colour
[15:13] Sleazy Writer: stucco is adobe with the dung?
[15:13] Dnate Mars: so, what can't be used?
[15:14] Jon Seattle: Dnate, a composite, often painted
[15:14] Rose Springvale: exterior.... like florida houses
[15:14] Jamie Palisades: Moon, I like it. Except I think u need tile or "ceramic",esp. for floors
[15:14] You: you can't use stuff like concrete apparent
[15:14] You: plastic
[15:14] Arria Perreault: plastic and steel cannot be used
[15:14] You: Jamie, i accept your amend
[15:15] Arria Perreault: and large widows of glass
[15:15] You: large windows must be partitioned like teh ones here
[15:15] Dnate Mars: can you used stained glass?
[15:15] Sonja Strom: that is in there.
[15:15] Arria Perreault: windows
[15:15] Rose Springvale: that is more typology than materials
[15:15] You: yes, you can, should it be clear?
[15:15] Arria Perreault: yes
[15:15] You: ok hmmm
[15:15] Dnate Mars: I would add glass, of any color,
[15:16] You: accept the amend
[15:16] Rose Springvale: second the motion as amended
[15:16] Sleazy Writer: a stained glass Paris Hilton poodle (Tinkerbell)
[15:16] ThePrincess Parisi: excuse me
[15:16] Sleazy Writer: or wait, it's not a poodle
[15:16] You: and Rose, i am proposing all this in the sim-wide covenants to allow people to choose materials without tipifying zones
[15:17] Rose Springvale: yes, i see
[15:17] Rose Springvale: i like it
[15:17] Dnate Mars: Princess, you had a question?
[15:17] You: yes, Princess?
[15:17] ThePrincess Parisi: no i did not
[15:17] You: i am wondering if we shouldn't allow metal in teh structural elements as well
[15:17] You: what do you think?
[15:17] Sleazy Writer: I say : no ..
[15:17] Dnate Mars: only Iron, no steel
[15:18] You: painted metal?
[15:18] Sleazy Writer: that will make it massive and victorian like bridges and railway stations
[15:18] Alexicon Kurka: is this CDSA wide?
[15:18] Alexicon Kurka: CDS*
[15:18] You: no Alex, AM-wide only
[15:18] Sleazy Writer: the new sim, on the map here
[15:18] Jamie Palisades: sorry to be fractious but I do not agree about 'glass of any color' in materials - or rather, I agree with Moon, not Arria on this little point -- glass style belongs instead elsweher (typology?), which is where we also prohibit neons, full brightness, etc I assume
[15:18] Alexicon Kurka: then metal in structural elements matches the transitional character
[15:18] You: Jamie, no, we are forbidding those sim-wide
[15:19] Sonja Strom: yes, exactly.
[15:19] Sonja Strom: Kurka, I mean.
[15:19] You: shoul i add painted metal?
[15:19] Dnate Mars: No
[15:19] Jamie Palisades: Moon we are agreeing, it;s just about in *which* category the prohib belons. s
[15:20] You: Jamie, last meeting we discussed zoning by materials, and it was felt that it was too restrictive and perhaps too confusing
[15:20] You: so i now simplified the materials and set them as sim-wide allowed
[15:20] Alexicon Kurka: it is an improvement
[15:20] You: ok guys
[15:21] You: i'll drop the metals, anyone wanting to use them structurally can ask a waiver
[15:21] Sleazy Writer nods
[15:21] You: so i propose we vote
[15:21] You: Sonja, the updated text:
[15:21] You: "All the buildings must be built in pre-industrial materials, namely:
[15:21] You: " 1. Structural elements can be stone, brick or wood 2. Roofing elements can be wood, slate or terracota shingles, and thatch. 3. Exterior flooring elements can be brick, ceramics, stone or wood. 4. Wall elements can be stone, brick, wood or stucco. 5. Door and window elements can be wood or metals, raw or painted. Large panes of glass in any colour must be partitioned by appropriate framing. "
[15:21] You: All agreeing, say aye
[15:21] Sleazy Writer: aye
[15:22] Jon Seattle: aye
[15:22] Alexicon Kurka: aye
[15:22] MT Lundquist: aye
[15:22] Jamie Palisades: aye
[15:22] Sonja Strom: aye
[15:22] ThePrincess Parisi: ate
[15:22] Dnate Mars: aye
[15:22] You: aye
[15:22] ThePrincess Parisi: ayye lol
[15:22] Rose Springvale: aye
[15:22] Dnate Mars: (what about interar floors?)
[15:22] Jamie Palisades: I think we came out correctly on the metals. Conceptually, the rules for Alpine, like the physical space, should be between CN and the NFS city -- so if there's no metal in NFS strict zones, other than windows, then none here, either.
[15:22] You: inetrior floors they can do what they want
[15:23] You: but you are right, these are Exterior materials only
[15:23] Sleazy Writer: Dnate > many houses will be closed off anyway .. no need to descrbie what folks can have in their houses
[15:23] Dnate Mars: gotcha
[15:23] Sleazy Writer:
[15:23] Sonja Strom: MT, would you like to vote?
[15:23] You: so i'll accept the amend to Exterior Materials, if you all agree
[15:23] MT Lundquist: aye
[15:23] Sonja Strom: ok, to MT.
[15:24] Dnate Mars: aye
[15:24] Arria Perreault: aye
[15:24] Sonja Strom: aye
[15:24] Sleazy Writer: aye to tiles/ceramics and otherwise I abstain
[15:24] Jon Seattle: abstain
[15:24] Alexicon Kurka: abstain
[15:24] Rose Springvale: aye
[15:25] You: aye t the amend
[15:25] Jamie Palisades: ditto
[15:25] Sonja Strom: abstain.
[15:25] You: passed, i think
[15:26] You: hmmm
[15:26] Sonja Strom: The original is 11 yes, 0 no.
[15:26] Sonja Strom: The amendment is 6 yes,
[15:26] You: ok
[15:26] You: passed
[15:26] Sonja Strom: 2 abstain,
[15:26] You: before we dig into zones
[15:27] Arria Perreault: i will have to go now...
[15:27] Sonja Strom: ok, bye Arria
[15:27] Dnate Mars: Me too, I have to go get dinner ready
[15:27] You: Sleazy has proposed that we should discuss a sim-wide rule regarding texture uploads
[15:27] You: bye rria and Dnate, tahnks for showing by
[15:27] Arria Perreault: bye bye
[15:27] Sleazy Writer: that's right
[15:27] You: new majorities at 5 votes
[15:28] Sonja Strom: bye Dnate
[15:28] Sleazy Writer: bye Dnate
[15:28] You: Sleazy has proposed that we add a rule stating that a texture can't be bigger in size than 512*512 or its' equivalent
[15:28] ThePrincess Parisi blows teh blue one a kiss
[15:28] Alexicon Kurka: bye Dnate
[15:28] Dnate Mars: nothing over 512x512... and try to reduce, reuse and recycle as much as possible
[15:28] Sleazy Writer nods @ Dnate
[15:28] Jon Seattle: Bye Arria, Dnate
[15:28] You: which would mean that you could have 1024*128 still for texts, etc
[15:28] Rose Springvale: is it enforceable?
[15:28] Dnate Mars: No
[15:28] You: well, yes, taht's my question
[15:29] Sleazy Writer: Putting it in the AM covenant will make it more enforcable than it is right now
[15:29] Jon Seattle: Well, its not, but perhaps it will get people to think.
[15:29] You: mind that you can get info on every texture in an object
[15:29] Rose Springvale: i mean.. can we tell?
[15:29] Dnate Mars: but it is impossible to tell what the size is
[15:29] You: oh, you can tell teh size
[15:29] Dnate Mars: How?
[15:29] Sleazy Writer: But you can prescribe and ask people to follow the rules to improve the sims performance
[15:29] You: lloking fo rteh command
[15:29] You: but yes, taht is my question
[15:29] Sleazy Writer: ohhh ... right .. properties something
[15:30] You: CTRL+Alt+Shift+T
[15:30] You: with the object edited
[15:30] Sleazy Writer: great
[15:30] Jamie Palisades: I think it's good "ecology" and we should adopt even if *not* completely enforceable.
[15:30] Sleazy Writer agrees with Jamie
[15:30] Sleazy Writer: AM is the right place to start
[15:30] You: can we use a reccomendation language?
[15:30] Rose Springvale: i'd rather see a set of informational guildelines
[15:31] Sleazy Writer: it's brand new so we can start again with good building practice
[15:31] Jon Seattle: Yes, I think we should adopt it.
[15:31] Rose Springvale: is not a fan of chilling effect laws
[15:31] You: like hmmm
[15:31] Alexicon Kurka: ABout the textures, I do know of art objects that have to use higher resolutions
[15:31] Sleazy Writer: Rose , ... it *is* already a law .. the covenant seems the right place for a guideline
[15:31] Alexicon Kurka: I guess it makes sence to restrict constructions
[15:31] Jon Seattle: Well, exceptions can be appealed to the chancellor
[15:31] You: well, yes, Alex, you can't control objects one buys
[15:31] You: but perhaps we can have
[15:32] Sleazy Writer: Moon > the text I drafted doesn't apply to pre-fab objects
[15:32] Sleazy Writer: (can't enforce that anyway)
[15:32] Rose Springvale: my point sleazy is that we "want" more new people
[15:32] You: ok
[15:32] Rose Springvale: but you need to be so expert to understand
[15:32] You: i would remove the notice to teh law
[15:32] Sleazy Writer: fine, remove the notice to the law
[15:32] You: so the text would be:
[15:33] You: "for the textures applied to prims by citizens, the largest texture that is allowed, may have 512x512 pixels or an equivalent number of resulting pixels."
[15:33] Sleazy Writer: that 1st part is meant to say that it's only for our *own* textures .. not for bought stuff
[15:33] You: but perhaps tone it down to a recommendation
[15:33] Sleazy Writer: aka pre-fab things
[15:33] Rose Springvale: does that cover the commercially availablt textures?
[15:33] Jamie Palisades: he way we address that, I think, Rose, if for our enforcement of the laws to be reasonable and sensitive. Rather like jaywalking rules in the US. Anyone want to argue that Sudane, for example, has been unable to act that way?
[15:34] Rose Springvale: yes but this is the first contact many people will have with CDS as an entity with open land sales
[15:34] Sleazy Writer: commercial 1024x1024 should be resized out-world .. and uploaded .. if that's allowed
[15:34] Moon Adamant thinks
[15:34] Jamie Palisades: I don't see a real risk in making it part of the covenants, here.
[15:34] You: ah, Sleazy, but you may not be able to do that
[15:34] Rose Springvale: and reasonable application won't bring back the new citizen who says.. gee. i dont get it
[15:34] Sleazy Writer: "if possible" of course
[15:34] You: what about hmmm
[15:35] Jon Seattle: Well, a sim without huge textures is much more pleasent.. large images can slow things down quite a lot
[15:35] Sleazy Writer: "excluding prefabricated objects, the largest texture that is allowed, may have 512x512 pixels or an equivalent number of pixels"
[15:35] You: " In order to reduce lag, in the prims belonging to the buildings, textures no larger than 512*512 or equivalent should be used*
[15:35] Rose Springvale: and i'll be the first to raise my hand as a non builder to volunteer that "i dont' get it"
[15:36] Jamie Palisades: hm I admit I like Moon's "should" there
[15:36] Sonja Strom: I also don't understand it...
[15:36] You: well, should stands for a recommendation
[15:36] Jon Seattle: Well, we want strong enough language that people will not just ignore it.
[15:36] Alexicon Kurka: I think both new formulations are OK. If one is not building onde doesn't need to be conserned about this rule
[15:36] Sleazy Writer: 1024 x 1024 takes 4 times as much to download to yor computer ..a dn 4 times as much memory
[15:37] You: what about hmmm
[15:37] Sleazy Writer: introducing ambiguous language serves noone
[15:37] Jon Seattle: Sleazy, exactly! And about 200 x the time it takes to download a prim shape.
[15:37] Sonja Strom: It is a larger size texture, like perhaps a whole side of a building?
[15:37] Rose Springvale: how about
[15:37] Alexicon Kurka: I like Moons formulation, as it specifies texturing buildings
[15:37] Jon Seattle: Sonja, textures normally repeat
[15:37] You: " In order to reduce lag, when building your house, textures no larger than 512*512 or equivalent should be used*
[15:38] Jon Seattle: And repeating textures do not depend on the size of the object at all
[15:38] Rose Springvale: textures in excess of 512 x512 should be referred to the guild for reconfiguration?
[15:38] Sleazy Writer: Moon > why limit it to buildings?? What if my Kitara has a 1024x 1024 tex?
[15:38] You: so it is now tied directly to building
[15:38] You: but i can't help your kitara
[15:38] Sleazy Writer: *why* buildings?
[15:38] Jon Seattle: Also if you use the same texture over and over in a sim, it will be downloaded to your client program only once
[15:38] Sonja Strom: Sometimes I see a photographed building in RL applied to a building in SL. That would be such a larger texture?
[15:38] Rose Springvale: rather than prohibit, facillitate
[15:38] You: well, first of all, there is occlusion to mind too
[15:38] Sonja Strom: what is occlusion?
[15:39] You: if your kitara is inside a closed room, it doesn't affect my client's performance while i am outside it
[15:39] Jon Seattle: Sonja, it may be a much larger texture, depending on how it was made.
[15:39] Sleazy Writer: M > are you sure -- is SL smart enough not to load something inside house? or smart enough not to load 1024x1024 for a small chess board?
[15:39] You: so i wouldn't really check objects
[15:40] Jon Seattle: Sleazy, it is almost smart enough. If a small section shows..
[15:40] You: well, Sleazy, the server loads it into cache, but it is not transmitte dto your client untill you see it
[15:40] You: guys: enough tech talk
[15:40] You: sorry
[15:40] Jamie Palisades: OK. "houses" or "visible from Exterior" or everything?
[15:40] You: but all this talk is just showing how hard it is to explain the concept to people
[15:41] Rose Springvale: agrees
[15:41] Alexicon Kurka: yes
[15:41] Jamie Palisades: Or abandon the attempt?
[15:41] You: i would keep a recommendation for people to try and use 512*512
[15:41] Sleazy Writer: If Moon will include "houses (and large objects)" then I'm fine with it
[15:41] Sonja Strom thinks maybe she should take another building course.
[15:41] You: and the Guild can give classes on textures lol
[15:41] Rose Springvale thinks she should read more and get off the computer
[15:42] Rose Springvale: excellent idea
[15:42] Alexicon Kurka: that's why talking about buildings is for the most people OK, as only experienced builders will start with a house
[15:42] Rose Springvale: classes
[15:42] You: houses and exterior objjects, agree?
[15:42] Sleazy Writer: " In order to reduce lag, when building a house or large object, textures no larger than 512*512 or equivalent should be used"
[15:42] You: i can agree with that
[15:43] You: since it implies that it is in the act of building that people shoud be aware
[15:43] You: ok, shall we vote?
[15:43] Sleazy Writer: "must be used"
[15:43] You: hmmm
[15:43] Sleazy Writer: " In order to reduce lag, when building a house or large object, textures no larger than 512*512 or equivalent must be used"
[15:43] Sleazy Writer: gimme a vote for that
[15:43] Sonja Strom: I put in that change.
[15:43] You: ok, i accept that for voting
[15:44] Jamie Palisades: Yes to that, Moon, IF we go that route - But several are pointing out that the whole rule might baffle nonexperts, in ANY form ...
[15:44] Sleazy Writer: I want this to be a bit spicy
[15:44] Sleazy Writer:
[15:44] Rose Springvale: sleazy hon
[15:44] You: all vote on : " In order to reduce lag, when building a house or large object, textures no larger than 512*512 or equivalent must be used"
[15:44] Rose Springvale: this is not the place for spice!
[15:44] Jamie Palisades: hang on -
[15:44] Jon Seattle: seconds
[15:44] Sleazy Writer: I get what you're saying but I still want spice
[15:44] Jamie Palisades: well OK but I may make a diff suggestion
[15:44] Rose Springvale: votes no
[15:44] Jamie Palisades: vote no, for now
[15:44] Moon Adamant passes a chilli to sleazy and demands the votes
[15:44] Sleazy Writer: aye
[15:45] Jon Seattle: aye
[15:45] MT Lundquist: aye
[15:45] ThePrincess Parisi: aye
[15:45] Sonja Strom: abstain
[15:45] Alexicon Kurka: abstain
[15:46] Sleazy Writer: Moon?
[15:46] Sonja Strom: ach ya.
[15:46] You: hmmm i would like to hear Jamie's suggestion, but i will vote aye and hear it all the same, and if case be, we'll amend
[15:46] Jamie Palisades: Four to two, with our visitors. Jon wins. Wanna hear the alt idea anyway, or not?
[15:46] Jamie Palisades: 5 to 2
[15:46] You: so passed, but yes, i want to hear
[15:47] Jon Seattle: Sure
[15:47] Jamie Palisades: Ha ha maybe we should go start a sim, Rose. This one's taken ... But ok ...
[15:47] Rose Springvale smiles
[15:48] Jamie Palisades: WHat about, instead, maybe "chancellor reserves the right to require a reconfiguration or removal of prims which consume inordinate bandwidth, e.g., by extraordinary texture file size?" (Work it into the smae kind of rule as scripts)
[15:48] You: hmmm
[15:48] You: that would make it similar to the script rule
[15:48] Jamie Palisades: That's NOT well worded, but I hope conveys the idea
[15:48] You: what about hmmm
[15:48] Rose Springvale: yes.
[15:48] Sleazy Writer: Jamie > that is not guidance but putting the burdain on the Chancellor to go and check .... aka nothign is going to happen
[15:49] Rose Springvale: but if someone breaks the law...
[15:49] Rose Springvale: *I* can't tell.
[15:49] Rose Springvale: but w/e
[15:49] You: going back to "should" and add the caution about chancellor action?
[15:49] Sleazy Writer: it's not that 1 lagging object will lag the sim but rather that many people will use 1024x1024 and that there's no way back like in NFS which is very texture heavy
[15:49] Jon Seattle: Well, Jamie, I want people to think about this when they build. An important point: the effect if using huge textures is cummulative
[15:49] Jamie Palisades: and I don't really feel strongly about it, frankly, just trying to grope for a more "non-expert-friendly" formulation
[15:50] Alexicon Kurka: SO there is some experience done in NFS on large textures
[15:50] Jon Seattle: I would worry that we woud hadle only the most dire cases hat way.
[15:50] Sleazy Writer: appreciate the effort .. it sounds very nice
[15:50] Jon Seattle: yes, Alex, it accounts for quite a bit of lag in NFS
[15:50] Jamie Palisades: said at the start, I think it's good ecology - just tough to convey *meaningfully* to nonarchitects
[15:50] Rose Springvale: i just wish we could have covenants simple enough to actually post on the land
[15:51] You: well, we can make a dispenser of covenants
[15:51] Rose Springvale: and provide building guidelines and approval for builders
[15:51] Rose Springvale: no..
[15:51] Rose Springvale: that only makes it worse
[15:51] Sleazy Writer: I think Moon's text about lag & textures makes enough sense to most people
[15:51] Alexicon Kurka: It is helpful for builders to have a clear directive, but maybe move all builders directives to a second layer, so that non builders won't feel it is too rigid
[15:51] You: Rose, i hhave cut my draft in two pages, to bear that in mind
[15:52] Rose Springvale: i understand moon, i'm not being critical
[15:52] Rose Springvale: but many people will never build a house
[15:52] Rose Springvale: and they will still shy away because of too many technical rules i think
[15:52] You: but the issue is, we must have some minimal rules - or this will become like mainland
[15:52] Rose Springvale: so.. why n ot building guidelines
[15:52] Rose Springvale: available on request
[15:52] Jamie Palisades: Rose, that would have the beneficial effect of retarding covenant churn -- but for that reason, not sure the RA would like it. And JoOn, if we stick with the "numbers" approach, we just need as a community to post some ex-covenant guidlines and helper explanation text maybe
[15:53] Rose Springvale: or dispensed in new citizen packs
[15:53] You: i dn't know what is the answer to that, save that building guidelibnes and covenants etc can be made more accessible in the portal
[15:53] Rose Springvale: slne hands them out in the land office
[15:53] You: but sure, the Guild can start a project for building guidelines
[15:54] Jamie Palisades: Despotism has its advantages
[15:54] Rose Springvale: y ou all know how i feel abotu having to go to a website to participate in sl
[15:54] You: i'll talk that with Arria
[15:54] Jon Seattle: Oh, I really do not know what you are talking about. We have longer ones already for other sims and it has not yet been a problem.
[15:54] You: well Jon, some rules go unenforced
[15:54] Rose Springvale: that you know of
[15:54] Jamie Palisades: how diverse are the holdings there?
[15:54] Rose Springvale: and how many hve simply discarded the notion?
[15:55] ThePrincess Parisi: excuse us i need to go
[15:55] Alexicon Kurka: Rose, SL is a kind of next generation website lol
[15:55] You: i'd rather have recommendations than rules that can't be enforced
[15:55] Sleazy Writer: R > Why not propose to start the covenant with "exceptions to rules can be requested to sim administrator ('Chancellor')." .. that should tell that we're not covenant Nazis
[15:55] Sonja Strom: Hi Fritz
[15:55] ThePrincess Parisi: hello?
[15:55] You: Thanks fr showing by Princess, MT
[15:55] Rose Springvale: depending on the chancellor SW
[15:55] ThePrincess Parisi: do we know fritz/ ?
[15:55] MT Lundquist: and me to
[15:55] ThePrincess Parisi: nice to see you thank you bye
[15:55] Rose Springvale: for some of us, that is not always the case
[15:55] MT Lundquist: good to see u
[15:55] Sonja Strom: bye bye
[15:55] You: thanks a lot
[15:55] Jon Seattle: Thanks Princess
[15:55] MT Lundquist: and the meeting
[15:55] Rose Springvale: bye prin and MT
[15:55] You: ok guys
[15:55] Jamie Palisades: ta
[15:55] Sleazy Writer: Bye TP & MT
[15:55] Alexicon Kurka: bye thePrincess and MT
[...]

[Moon Adamant]

15:55] You: focusing back
[15:55] ThePrincess Parisi: bye vveveryone
[15:56] You: we still have a lot to discuss, and i'll close the meeting when we are only 3 of us
[15:56] Jamie Palisades: Jon, it's a reasonable goal for us - as CDS - to keep NFS operations intellectually accessible to newcomers. The website thing will need more chat another day, but probably not here.
[15:56] You: Rose: i understand the concern about legibility of covenants
[15:56] You: and succintness
[15:57] Sleazy Writer: Jamie it sounds like you need to joint the Simplicity party
[15:57] You: and Sleazy and Jon: i understand the concern about safeguarding performance
[15:57] You: but my issue is: is it ENFORCEABLE?
[15:57] Jon Seattle: well, its a point
[15:57] Jamie Palisades: Well maybe the Non_portal Party
[15:57] Sleazy Writer: Moon > In the covenant it serves as a guideline
[15:57] Jon Seattle: How do we make sure that everyone sees the guidelines if it is hidden away though?
[15:58] You: Jon, that's another issue
[15:58] Rose Springvale: but jon.. with all due respect.. click the covenant tab in this room
[15:58] Sleazy Writer: yes, something else
[15:58] You: we can post them in the portal, have citizen boxes, etc
[15:58] You: lots of ways
[15:58] Jon Seattle: My guess is if we had a separate builder's guideline document no one would ever see it, and if challenged would claim that it is inaccessable and therefore can be ignored
[15:58] Jamie Palisades: hmm Can the covenant itself say, for more information on the reasons for and ways to implement these rules, see [pointer to nonnormative resource] ?
[15:59] Sonja Strom: good idea...
[15:59] Rose Springvale: at any rate, we've passed the vote, and i've only got 30 more minutes
[15:59] Jamie Palisades is an XML guy, he likes links...
[15:59] You: Jon, we will discuss taht on teh Guild, and mybe Faculty can org a set of classes
[15:59] Rose Springvale:
[16:00] Jamie Palisades: .. and re-use ...
[16:00] You: ok
[16:00] You: Jamie, the covenants have wording to defend the action of teh chancellor
[16:00] You: so i would say leave it as is
[16:00] You: next issue
[16:00] Sleazy Writer: yes please
[16:00] You: Zones
[16:01] Sonja Strom: now to the difficult part.
[16:01] Sonja Strom: haha
[16:01] You: now, i do NOT want a repeat of last meeting's 15 pages discussion on this
[16:01] You: so i will propose my revised text and see if we can work from there
[16:01] You: for Jamie, who wasn't here
[16:01] You: i am proposing that zones define style transitions
[16:02] You: and so my language says:
[16:02] You: Zone H (Hamlet) 1. The Zone H is the Zone on the north of the sim that is adjacent to Colonia Nova 2. Buildings in this zone aim to resemble alpine (mountain) styles of Western Europe, but can incorporate classical elements such as columns, entablatures and pediments in their design in a point manner, to allow visual transition of style to Colonia Nova sim.
[16:02] You: # Zone S (Mid-Slope) 1. The Zone S is the Zone encompassing the middle of the slope, roughly till Monastery level 2. Buildings in this zone aim to resemble alpine (mountain) styles of Western Europe
[16:02] You: 3. Zone T (Top Plots) 1. The Zone T is the Zone encompassing the top of the slope, roughly from Monastery level, and up to the border with Neufreistadt sim. 2. Buildings in this zone aim to resemble alpine (mountain) styles of Western Europe, and should aim to link visually with the styles present in Neufreistadt.
[16:02] You: 4. Zone C (Commons) 1. The Zone C is the Zone encompassing all public land and structures in the sim, including landscape features, river and roads. 2. This zone is defended from any private building. 3. This zone is directly administered by the Executive Branch of the CDS
[16:03] You: Zone M (Monastery) 1. The Zone M is the Zone concerned directly with the Monastery building. 2. This zone is defended from any private building other than the Monastery NGO. 3. This zone is directly administered by the Monastery NGO, in compliance with these covenants and other applying CDS legislation.
[16:03] You: i have revised also to approach Sleazy's and Tan language here
[16:03] Jamie Palisades: Moon, actually, this IS moving along well and settling a lot of stuff, considering. And I did read the transcript, thanks. I think your text is a great frame for tackling the issue. And consistent with the CDS house style.
[16:04] You: ehehe thanks
[16:04] Jon Seattle: yea Moon!
[16:04] You: more comments?
[16:04] Rose Springvale loves this phrase "defended from any private building."
[16:04] Sonja Strom: For me personally, I would alter "Western Europe" to "Central Europe," but it is not a big issue. For one thing, it depends what these terms mean to someone.
[16:04] You: oh, archaic lol?
[16:04] Jamie Palisades: I see retarii, Rose
[16:05] Rose Springvale:
[16:05] Jamie Palisades: I am sorry arria's not here - I only regret that ZOne H seems to short people who wanted more "Rome" in the transitional zone
[16:05] Jon Seattle: Oh, I like the wording, even if it is unusual
[16:05] Sleazy Writer likes "central Europe"
[16:05] You: ok, accept the ammend to central Europe
[16:05] Rose Springvale: i like it as is
[16:06] You: i must say i have trouble knowing exactly what western and central are lol
[16:06] Jon Seattle: we would say "no building is allowed in zone C", but I like your words better
[16:06] Rose Springvale: because it's roman, but the adjacent zone in CN is not restricted
[16:06] Rose Springvale: why not just European?
[16:06] You: yes, i am allowing people to use classical elements though
[16:06] Rose Springvale: yes
[16:06] Rose Springvale: it's fine
[16:06] Sonja Strom: I just looked them up in the English version of Wikipedia, and there both geographies would apply.
[16:06] You: hmmm, because European means iberian, greek, etc
[16:06] Sonja Strom: yes, Russia...
[16:06] Sleazy Writer: "is Turkey Europe" "is Russia Europe" "Americans are European" "What about Brazillian Fachwerk"
[16:06] You: LOL
[16:07] You: actually they DO have an alpine style in Brazil
[16:07] Sonja Strom: Switzerland considers itself to be Central Europe.
[16:07] Sleazy Writer: "What about a Chinese EU-theme park?"
[16:07] Sonja Strom: Disneyland!
[16:07] Rose Springvale: but alpine limits it
[16:07] Rose Springvale: and i love disneyland!!
[16:07] Sonja Strom: Yes, it is like Europe ; - )
[16:07] You: that's why i added mountain in a parenthesis
[16:07] Jon Seattle likes some of the iberian building
[16:07] You: i am ok with refuge huts etc
[16:08] Jamie Palisades: hm
[16:08] Jamie Palisades: Let me ask this. We are leaving Monastery and public lands COMPLETELY to the RA heree. Arguably unlike the other two sims, it seems the People here get absolutely no defense in the land rules against a gov't that goes nuts and puts a 21st Century Bauhaus there .. as long as it's made of stucco.
[16:08] Sleazy Writer: what about omitting the parenthesis? simply "alpine"
[16:08] Sleazy Writer: errrr simply "mountain"
[16:08] You: ok, i can accept that
[16:08] You: and Jamie, the exec actually manages teh Commons
[16:08] Rose Springvale: i like alpine because it ties to the name.. but not important
[16:09] You: and we can vote them down in the next elections
[16:09] Sleazy Writer: The Exec. is not allowed to change the theme of the sim (bauhaus)
[16:09] You: ok, bearing in mind the amends accepted
[16:09] Sonja Strom: I like Alpine because it refers to central (or western) Europe.
[16:09] You: those being : western europe becomes central europe
[16:09] Sleazy Writer: errr. ... yes I support Sonja .. Alpine is better than "mountain"
[16:09] Jon Seattle: I like alpine also, but its just a word to me
[16:10] You: and alpine (mountain) passes to
[16:10] You: hmmm
[16:10] You: what about alpine AND mountain?
[16:10] Sonja Strom: mountain could be the Caucasus, Mount Everest.
[16:10] Sleazy Writer nods @ Sonja
[16:10] Sleazy Writer: although ..a US log cabin would be nice ..
[16:10] Jon Seattle: The pokonos in Penn
[16:10] Sleazy Writer: not alpine but very nice
[16:10] You: mind that the covenants already incorporate this language:
[16:10] Sonja Strom: yes, true...
[16:10] Sleazy Writer: (or lodge ..)
[16:11] Sonja Strom: Jon Seattle's sim is like that...
[16:11] You: "Alpine Meadows is defined as having a general Alpine, Rural and Antique theme, and all builds in the sim must comply with the theme."
[16:11] Sonja Strom: It is very nice.
[16:11] You: assumption from last week meeting
[16:11] Sonja Strom: sounds good.
[16:11] You: s what do you say?
[16:11] You: amend only western europe?
[16:11] Sleazy Writer: let's open that 6 pack of beer
[16:12] You: lol, i actually am longing for a glass of water
[16:12] You: let's vote so i can go get
[16:12] Jamie Palisades: Siigh - I think the level of banter here indicates that your first draft is VERY close, Moon.
[16:12] Rose Springvale: second motion as amended and votes aye
[16:12] Sonja Strom: aye
[16:12] Jamie Palisades: "aye"
[16:12] You: aye
[16:12] Jon Seattle: aye
[16:13] Sleazy Writer: aye
[16:13] Sonja Strom: Moon?
[16:13] Sonja Strom: ah ok, got it.
[16:13] Sonja Strom: 6/0
[16:13] Sleazy Writer wonders what the amended version is
[16:13] Jamie Palisades: brewskis!
[16:13] Sleazy Writer: 6 for CDS 0 for Caledon!
[16:13] Sonja Strom: many discrete changes...
[16:13] You: passed
[16:13] You: (and back)
[16:14] Sonja Strom: : - )
[16:14] You: ok, we're going good .)
[16:14] You: Typologies
[16:14] You: at this point
[16:14] You: i will suggest only the metion that the plots are divided by typologies
[16:15] Rose Springvale: meaning?
[16:15] You: hmmm, last point was actually a good deal of teh zones covenant lol
[16:15] You: sorry
[16:16] You: well, in the sim wide covenants i only have this:
[16:16] You: Alpine Meadows has 4 different typologies, defined by plot type: A, B, C, and D. It also features a special M plot.
[16:16] You: you will recognize the plot types from Jon/Dnate's proposal
[16:16] Jamie Palisades excuses himself with apologies and AFKs
[16:16] You: these types will define, in my opinion
[16:17] You: max height of builds (except roofs)
[16:17] You: border area to adjacent plots and roads
[16:17] You: a small distinction, borrowed from Sleazy/Tan
[16:17] You: in that Plots A and B can be any kind of alpine structure
[16:18] You: but C plots can't hold chateaux
[16:18] Rose Springvale: defined as?
[16:18] You: and a footprint/garden rule, which i am still wondering about
[16:18] You: ehehe good question
[16:18] You: atm, the best i can offer is our database of images
[16:19] Rose Springvale: also queries the need for setbacks in a double prim sim
[16:19] You: well, the setbacks are there justly so that people don't use the double prim allowance to build 50 metre-tall towers
[16:20] You: or build up to the border of the sim
[16:20] Rose Springvale: tall i have no trouble with
[16:20] Rose Springvale: but border.. yes
[16:20] Rose Springvale: haveing a structure now that does exactly that
[16:21] You: what if a border area can be counted towards a garden area?
[16:21] Rose Springvale: but with half the sim as greenspace, i dont' see why we require garden area
[16:21] You: because i would like plots to have gardens, with things like pavillions allowed
[16:21] Rose Springvale: but.. that means more than have the sim will be garden
[16:22] Rose Springvale: and again, my office would fail to qualify
[16:22] You: well, the hamlet area coud use a bit of space
[16:22] Rose Springvale: perhaps that is the intent.
[16:23] You: i confess that i value the border area
[16:23] Sleazy Writer: me too
[16:23] Jon Seattle: There is a clear avantage to having more open space, even if we have some "unowned". It will seem much more rural.
[16:23] You: so that we allow hmmm some space between builds
[16:23] Rose Springvale: sigh
[16:24] Sleazy Writer: btw Moon .. didn't you think of somehting that only has borders for places where there's a neighbour?
[16:24] You: and don't have that mainland look of stuffiness
[16:24] Rose Springvale: i am feeling a bit outnumbered here and ask that we adjourn until more representative are available to discuss the issue
[16:24] You: yes, borders would only apply where there's a plot next to it
[16:24] Rose Springvale: especially as i must leave in 5 minutes
[16:24] You: hmmm
[16:25] You: i am too not very comfy with close discussions and would like it to have teh covenants with a broad support base
[16:25] Sonja Strom: Rose, would you say what your intent is for the character of this sim?
[16:25] You: but when are we solving this?
[16:25] Rose Springvale: perhaps at the top of the agenda moon, when more are here?
[16:26] You: next sunday?
[16:26] Rose Springvale: i dont' have intents sonja, sorry
[16:26] Sonja Strom: do you have a vision of what it would look like?
[16:26] You: do you all agree to adjourn till sunday?
[16:26] Rose Springvale: did you read the initial proposal?
[16:26] Sonja Strom: yes
[16:26] Rose Springvale: that is all i have
[16:26] Rose Springvale: much has changed
[16:27] Sleazy Writer: Sudane (an hour before the RA) is fine
[16:27] You: hmm, two hours
[16:27] Sleazy Writer: *this* sunday I hope?
[16:27] You: yes, this sunday
[16:27] Rose Springvale: at the regular guild time?
[16:27] Sleazy Writer: good
[16:27] Sonja Strom: I don't know if I can be there, but that is fine. I am not voting strongly anyway.
[16:27] You: yes, regular guild time
[16:27] Sonja Strom: Only, you will have to find a new secretary : - )
[16:28] You: we'l make an extraordinary session just for this
[16:28] Sleazy Writer nods
[16:28] Sonja Strom nods
[16:28] You: that's quite ok Sonja Thanks a lot indeed!
[16:28] Sleazy Writer: thanks!
[16:28] You: ok guys, let's adjourn?
[16:28] Rose Springvale: thank you.
[16:28] Sonja Strom: I second.
[16:28] You: in any case, we did a good work today )
[16:28] Sleazy Writer: yep
[16:29] Jon Seattle: yes