3rd sim ideas (list) - competition not far away

Forum to discuss and coordinate the expansion of the CDS and the redevelopment of existing territories.

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Sleazy_Writer
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Post by Sleazy_Writer »

[quote="Ranma Tardis":2sn4kn1c].. join the two communities together. At this time there is no sense of community to the CDS. I warned the community about this when a different theme was picked than Neufreistadt and then separated from Neufreistadt.[/quote:2sn4kn1c]
[color=blue:2sn4kn1c][i:2sn4kn1c]hear hear! The numero #1 uno best argument![/i:2sn4kn1c][/color:2sn4kn1c]

"Colonia Nova what is that?" "Neufreistadt? Never heard of" --> Isn't that just plain rediculous?

That's why I really want to see a bridge *if* a water way is chosen, separating both sims.

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Nikki
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Post by Nikki »

I don't know if this is helpful really, but just ran across something I was not aware of and thought I would share it with you. It is possible to create sims as "open spaces" or "void regions" can be used for scenic-land and water areas less expensively than with normal sims.
To see this, go to :
http://support.secondlife.com
log in,
go to the search box in the upper left,
put in this term:
openspaces
and hit the Search button.

Last edited by Nikki on Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Salzie Sachertorte
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Post by Salzie Sachertorte »

Yes, we know of voids. The problem with them is that a) they have a low number of prims, b) you have to buy them in 4-packs, that is 4 sims for the price of one, c) they are a hard sell due to the low number of prims available, and d) you have to anchor them to a regular sim.

We have discussed using voids in the future, when the CDS can support their usage financially - that is raising the $1675 to purchase a four-pack and then spreading the $295 monthly fee among the citizens without driving anyone away due to the high cost of land ownership in the CDS. It would be nice to have one linking the two current sims, but where we would we put the other three?

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Post by Dnate Mars »

On thing that need to be very carefully thought is the overall plan of the grouping. How long before we need sims 4, 5, 6, etc? Would it be better to actually have an open space between the 2 current sims with a small build on it? At what point will we be able to support these 4 voids? Are we going to have a 3rd theme after we expand the current 2? Ideally we need to connect the 2 sims, but we went through this once before when we decided to get the 3rd sim. At that time we wanted a new theme and knew we wanted to connect these sims in the future. There is also the possiblility that we can move CN to any location we want, therefore we can create a connection in a different way. We may not want to connect the way the sims are currently laid out. Also, while we are small, do we want to move to an area that will allow us to grow in any direction we please instead of having to work around the sims around us? These are just things to think about as we plan for the future. It is a lot easier and cheaper to move now then it will when we have more sims.

Ranma Tardis

Post by Ranma Tardis »

I think the CDS can get the 3rd sim if everyone pitches in. I do not see a 4th, 5th or 6th. There is not enough dedicated residents and cash flow for such. As I said there is no sense of community.
Caledon has a common purpose and identity. I always liked this timeframe for private reasons, especially the years before 1872.
Have no ill feeling toward the CDS it is just not the community I joined. There is something missing since CN went online. I do not have the words to express it.
I think a 3rd theme that is not connected to the other 2 sims will signal the end of the CDS.

Last edited by Ranma Tardis on Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Aliasi Stonebender
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Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

Didn't you leave?

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Ranma Tardis

Post by Ranma Tardis »

[quote="Aliasi Stonebender":2ytl8ttn]Didn't you leave?[/quote:2ytl8ttn]

Someone has to come up with some L$ for my last lot. Did you think I was just going to give it back to the city?
Until my last lot sells am still a citizen. I am trying to put in some productive posts until this happens. I would like our parting to be on friendly terms and hope that the "movers and shakers" of the CDS think things through. I would hate for the CDS to disolve. I am leaving since it has been made very clear to me that my input is not welcome and will not give my quiet approval to the direction the CDS has taken.

Dnate Mars
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Post by Dnate Mars »

[quote="Ranma Tardis":2itp2cxc]I think the CDS can get the 3rd sim if everyone pitches in. I do not see a 4th, 5th or 6th. There is not enough dedicated residents and cash flow for such. As I said there is no sense of community.
Caledon has a common purpose and identity. I always liked this timeframe for private reasons, especially the years before 1872.
Have no ill feeling toward the CDS it is just not the community I joined. There is something missing since CN went online. I do not have the words to express it.
I think a 3rd theme that is not connected to the other 2 sims will signal the end of the CDS.[/quote:2itp2cxc]

How would you feel if a 3rd sim came on line that was a continuation of one of the existing themes? It may not be the best idea to join the 2 sims at this point. We should look at the long term plans and go from there, not just settle because it will me much harder to change in the future.

The thing that comes to mind when I think about the new sim is Disney World. Walt Disney never wanted to destroy the illusion that was created in his different themes he had in his parks. I think that there is a very valid point in this thinking. I would be even in favor of removing the less restrictive areas that are currently in both the sims. I don't have a problem with the sky boxes because you don't see those. If we want themed sim, shouldn't the entire thing be themed? Between these themes, we can have voids with small neutral builds on them. Thus the illusion will never be destroyed within the themes.

One thing that I am sure i have missed, but have not seen, is what is the demand for new land? Do we have enough demand to fill a sim? Is it more, less or what?

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Nikki
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Post by Nikki »

Those are all valuable thoughts, as it is good to consider a lot of things. I also have wondered about the demand for purchasing land in NFS and CN. When I was wanting a property a few weeks ago there was nothing available for about two weeks until Ranma placed her properties to the west of Neufreistadt for sale. :)

To me any sims between NFS and CN should only be a continuation of them culturally. This is partly because one of the things I like about them is that they are planned and have continuity now, which I find very different from everywhere else I have seen in SL. The open anarchy of those other areas can be good in itself, but I much prefer to have a consistent "community" as my home.

I do not want to even say “open areas” is a good way to go, but I have some ideas about them:

In my opinion there should be the space of at least two sims between Neufreistadt and Colonia Nova to make the change in altitude and climate a reasonable transition. The more I think about this the more I think a river valley might be a good way to do that, but it wouldn’t have to be. The new sims could be two or more “open space” ones. There could perhaps be a “normal” sim in-together with those somewhere, to allow for more development (and possibly to get a larger population to help support the cost of the “open spaces” sims).
A third “open space” sim could also go in with those, as for example to make a kind of long river valley. Or, it could maybe be placed to the east or west side of NFS or CN as mountains or water, as could the fourth.

Perhaps the cost of such an idea would be too high for the citizens of the CDS. However, I personally am willing to help pay for it if it were done in a way I liked. Right now I could commit to ¼ of the cost myself, possibly more.

I have two questions:
1. There is a lot of talk of having only one sim between Neufreistadt and Colonia Nova. Are they only one sim distance from each other right now?
2. If there was a desire for more population density in the future, would it be possible to later relocate an “open space” sim and replace it with a “regular” sim?

Ranma Tardis

Post by Ranma Tardis »

Dnate what you are missing is the bonds that hold the community tougher. As a single sim we had a common bond. When we became 2 Sims that were not connected we lost that bond. Our attentions were spilt in half. While our population increased most of these are "renters" and do not contribute to government even to vote.
The government is a patch job in need of vision, there is no vision to our government, no spark, no imagination.
Looking at our Sims like theme parks will not work unless we see our citizens as "consumers". If this is true the very reason for the project is already gone. We were trying to make government work in SL, not provide land for renters. That use to be our vision.

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Post by Salzie Sachertorte »

[i:154mgyqr]Oh my! So many things to reply to![/i:154mgyqr]

I think the basic point here is that Caledon is truly an immersionist themed sim - not only are the builds Steampunk Victorian, the avatars dress, act and talk [i:154mgyqr]in-theme[/i:154mgyqr]. Even if you visit "out of theme" they treat you as though you are in-theme - sort of like a living history museum. Hence Desmond's huge success.

Our theme, however, is the Disney World version - the builds fit the theme, the "hosts" wears appropriate costumes (we all drag out our Tracht or togas on occasion) - but the "guests" walk about in their Mickey-Mouse T-shirts and flip-flops. We are not at all an immersionist theme.

Do we want to be? Do we want some or all of our future sims to be? That is a community question. It might attract people, it might cause some citizens to flee - but it should be asked.

I like Dnate's idea of extending the themes to encompass the entire sim, with "neutral" areas between. If a sim is particularly liked, we can always extend the theme to neighboring sim. Hence, planning and appropriate spacing now is very important to avoid incurring moving costs down the road.

We can always shuffle the sims around, keeping in mind that there is a LL fee for doing so. Also, if we move existing sims about, we would need to rework the topography so that they "match up." It was for these reasons that Moon led a group to develop a "Master Plan" allowing us to plan our growth, buy strategically and wisely decide when to move - we will have to move at some point in time in order to expand.

So, we have two choices. We can build contingent sims now, which would allow easy movement and help to build the community. Or we could strategically place new sims, holding spaces on the grid for our future expansion, without paying reservation fees.

Its a matter of the community deciding what is more important to us at this point in time.

This brings us to Ranma's point regarding community - with which I agree. I feel there is little sense of "community". We have no "vision". The RA holds meetings like clockwork and passes legislation. That's about it. MOCA has seen a recent revitalization, and I hope that the momentum continues, but there is little sense of community.

Why? I don't know. I do think building community is much more important than building sims.

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Post by Sleazy_Writer »

[color=blue:2zy50jih][i:2zy50jih]Why the 3rd sim should be between NFS & CN[/i:2zy50jih][/color:2zy50jih]

Hello Dnate and Nikki, Both of you think 'big': Stake out space around the CDS or have 2 sims between NFS and CN. This assumes that the CDS project of self ruling sims is running smoothly and is in a fit shape. That is not the case:

- Among 8 new citizens I've mentioned in another thread, afaik, only 2 are interested in the politics, which does not mean they'll participate in government
- 2/5th of the Science Council has resigned, 1/5th abstains leaving only 2/5th
- IMO all factions have difficulties with members leaving, being very busy or providing limited input
- Only 1 person ran for chancellor, and she asks herself "Why did I run?"
- No PIO
- No archivists for a long time
- The 'Code Reorganization Commission Act' is an acknowledgement that legislation needs a big clean up, yet I don't see progress with it
- culture/identity: Salzie said people in NFS wear their 'Tracht', well in 4 months, I've seen only 1 person in Tracht and that that outfit was made by someone who left the CDS.

Still reading? Don't panic. But this does clearly shows that the CDS project is not in a fit shape:
- absent residential people need to be brought back
- the politically engaged need to meet the 'socializers' and vice versa
- more of a community feel in general is needed, be CONnected instead of DISconnected.

[color=blue:2zy50jih]This shows that positioning the 3rd sim in between NFS & CN is [i:2zy50jih]EXACTLY[/i:2zy50jih] the right thing to do: get some ****ing extra synergy going, or we may end up like purely residental sims with a quasi goverment thingy and no commercial expertise.[/color:2zy50jih]

PS If you want I can expand the list of bad things to 10 items or even 15 :wink: Ofcourse there's much good things too, just trying to make an important point.

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Post by Salzie Sachertorte »

Um, I said people drag out their "national costumes" on occassion - usually for events for the tourists. Then again, we rarely have events...

Dnate Mars
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Post by Dnate Mars »

A question that is hard to answer is what caused the community that we started with to break like it did. Was it the new sim that caused it, or was it the lives of the players that changed? I know in my case it was much more a factor of my first life becoming quite busy rather then a new sim coming on line.

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Post by Brian Livingston »

[quote="Dnate Mars":ot5xl4h1]A question that is hard to answer is what caused the community that we started with to break like it did. Was it the new sim that caused it, or was it the lives of the players that changed? I know in my case it was much more a factor of my first life becoming quite busy rather then a new sim coming on line.[/quote:ot5xl4h1]

I think that the evident decline in civic involvement is a result of a number of interconnected factors. First off, as the CDS has grown older, it seems to have lost a lot of its momentum, not a unique phenomenon amongst projects. As the original, core group has moved on or had other priorities come up at various points, each successive generation has less of an investment in the community, in a general sense. This is not to say that all new citizens are not committed or invested in their communities, but it hardly seems a stretch to say that if you have a hand in the beginning stages of a project, chances are there will be a deeper connection than with those who come in at later points. For the record, I have only been in the CDS for just over a year now, so I am not an oldbie by any means.

Secondly, perhaps as a result of or a contributing factor to the aforementioned departure of some of the early members, there has been a noticable decline in events in the CDS over the past several months. The MoCA and other private citizens and organizations has been successful in putting on a number of events recently. However, the government should work to increase the number of events taking place in NFS and CN to draw in more people to the sims. These increased footsteps will increase the value of our commercial and residential land, provide entertianment for our fellow citizens, and instill vitality into the community, if only for an additioanl hour every day. I know it has been proposed on several occasions, but something such as a weekly or monthly flea/farmers market on the platz or starving artists faire at the CN forum would help bring in visitors and encourage residents to explore their sims again.

In addition, I do believe that the seperation of the CN and NFS has played a role in discouraging the revival of civic life in the CDS, simply because they serve as a barrier to transport and exploration. One result of this barrier is that there is little benefit to a CDS sim when the other sim is hosting an event. If I am hosting an event at the Amphitheatre in CN, those who are attending may stop at one of the shops on the forum or explore the sim. However, because the sims are seperated, that is generally how far their exploration of hte CDS will go.

So, where do we go from here?

I generally agree with the previous comments that adding a third theme to the mix will just worsen the situation. This next expansion should connect our two existing sims, but should not feature as strong of a theme as to allow for our two existing themes to gradually transition into each other, creating a more natural and organic feel as opposed to having the german sim and the roman sim and the ?? sim.

As for events, I feel that the government of the CDS should take a larger role in promoting and encouraging the hosting of events in our sims. We have a number of excellent venues for events of all sizes, from the Amphitheatre which can easily hold 40 people, to the church which I estimate can probably hold 20 to 30 people, to the beer garden which is good for smaller events, along with numerous other venues of varying sizes.

In the end, we need to work on getting everyone reinvested in the community through events, commerce, government service, organizations, and any other way possible. The revitalized MoCA is a great step, as is the New Guilde. We just need to keep up this momentum and keep it growing. The community is still alive and kicking in the CDS, it just needs to be reenergized.

--BL

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