3rd sim ideas (list) - competition not far away

[Arria Perreault]

I strongly agree with poeple who ask the question of the activities of our sims and of the future sim, before to build it. It is very important to ask this question. The answer is not easy. The main goal of CDS is to make an experience of virtual democracy. Democracy does not exist by itself. Democracy is an aswer to a question: how to manage a community of poeple. If we look at the history of democracy, we can observe that the main idea of old democracy is deliberation. Instead to have a king, instead to have a college of priests who ask gods, men consider that they have to put their ideas on public places and to debate them. But to debate, we need to have subjects to debate (or we make speculative philosophy). To have subjects to debate, we have to run activities. We see that democracy and activities are linked. CDS should promote different activities. If we have only residential places, the problems can be easely solved. If we have different activities, we can have more things to manage and find ways to do it. Today only two activities were taken in account (if I see the rules set for plots): residence and business (Plus public area). We should consider other activities which have maybe a better future in SL than business: I particularly think to cultural activities and to education. Why don't we build a new sim dedicated to education (adult education): to obtain a plot, poeple have to propose a project in this domain. It is not a bad idea: many poeple would like to use SL for educationnal purpose, but are not necessary able to buy/manage/have a hole sim. The idea of this sim (whatever the architectural them) would be to give an opportunity for these poeple to work in a place dedicated to their activities. So they can avoid to see a casino installed near their school for philosophy (or what ever). This new sim could have a residential part and a part dedicated to this special activity. Doing this, we have a chance to attract very active poeple and traffic. And if we have a good communication, we can make our two other sims better known to all these poeple.

[Ranma Tardis]

Lets see where to start,

[quote="Arria Perreault":2ay8sr2i] I strongly agree with poeple who ask the question of the activities of our sims and of the future sim, before to build it. It is very important to ask this question. The answer is not easy. The main goal of CDS is to make an experience of virtual democracy. Democracy does not exist by itself. Democracy is an aswer to a question: how to manage a community of poeple. [/quote:2ay8sr2i]

The community manages the government. The people of the community decide what the government performs; they are not a resource for the government to exploit.

[quote="Arria Perreault":2ay8sr2i] If we look at the history of democracy, we can observe that the main idea of old democracy is deliberation. Instead to have a king, instead to have a college of priests who ask gods, men consider that they have to put their ideas on public places and to debate them. But to debate, we need to have subjects to debate (or we make speculative philosophy). To have subjects to debate, we have to run activities. [/quote:2ay8sr2i]

The government should make it possible to hold activities and not mandate them. In Caledon, Desmond makes it possible for a function and does not have to support it. Perhaps the residents should look in the mirror and ask themselves if they really want activities.

[quote="Arria Perreault":2ay8sr2i] We see that democracy and activities are linked. CDS should promote different activities. If we have only residential places, the problems can be easely solved. If we have different activities, we can have more things to manage and find ways to do it. Today only two activities were taken in account (if I see the rules set for plots): residence and business (Plus public area). We should consider other activities which have maybe a better future in SL than business: I particularly think to cultural activities and to education. Why don't we build a new sim dedicated to education (adult education): to obtain a plot, poeple have to propose a project in this domain. It is not a bad idea: many poeple would like to use SL for educationnal purpose, but are not necessary able to buy/manage/have a hole sim. The idea of this sim (whatever the architectural them) would be to give an opportunity for these poeple to work in a place dedicated to their activities. So they can avoid to see a casino installed near their school for philosophy (or what ever). This new sim could have a residential part and a part dedicated to this special activity. Doing this, we have a chance to attract very active poeple and traffic. And if we have a good communication, we can make our two other sims better known to all these poeple.[/quote:2ay8sr2i]

Special people or people that are very active........Not sure what you mean by this as it implies that the current community is not good enough. Remember the community makes the government and the government does not social engineer the community to fit its requirements. Oh casinos are against the convents and public law and there is no danger of them entering the CDS. Please read the latest Linden Labs blog entry about this.
The public would be more involved in government if they were allowed to more involved. At this time it is not possible for a town meeting to have any impact on the government except to influence the RA members. Perhaps the citizens would be more active if they have a direct impact on the government besides voting for a faction every six months. I point to the commission meetings of last December as my example.

[Nikki]

While I agree with Arria that it is very important we consider what the new sim would be used for, I believe there are already enough places for events to be held in Neufreistadt and Colonia Nova. For example, there is a school for adult education in NFS, although I do not know how many courses are being held there. Like Brian and TOPGenosse, I think what would be most important about a connecting sim would be to bring together the communities of the CDS and their resources. Also, as Brian pointed out, it could be fun for people visiting events to explore among these communities on one grid. That said, for this reason I believe it is just as important for the existing qualities of these communities to be enhanced and not lost in the effort to join them.

Also, it seems to me if NFS and CN were to be joined by only one sim it would be very steep. It is possible this steepness could be made interesting and attractive, but I don’t think much of a community of its own could exist on that sim.

Thanks to Salzie for answering my question about the ability to move sims around. Now I have another question: would it be possible to lower the overall height of Neufreistadt, so it would not always be in the clouds and would be less of a height distance from Colonia Nova?

[Claude Desmoulins]

[quote="Nikki":121e0xlq]

Thanks to Salzie for answering my question about the ability to move sims around. Now I have another question: would it be possible to lower the overall height of Neufreistadt, so it would not always be in the clouds and would be less of a height distance from Colonia Nova?[/quote:121e0xlq]

The sim could be lowered without a great deal of hassle (though some of us like the clouds ) . The problem is that if the sim were lowered, every object on it would have to be lowered one at a time. This would be terribly labor intensive, not to mention the fact that some of the most memorable buildings (Kirche, Schloss, Biergarten, etc.) are owned by those no longer active in CDS. No one would have the permissions to move them.

[Nikki]

Thank you for the answer. It sounds like it would not be a good idea to try to lower it, especially since there are people who like it being foggy!

[Patroklus Murakami]

Nikki

Claude has already answered your question but I thought I should mention that the height of Neufreistadt and how to deal with it was considered by the Regional Planning Commission held in February this year. The result was an Estate Plan for the CDS which shows how we anticipate the territory expanding up to 18 sims (NFS and CN and 16 more).

The plan and the discussion that took place is [url=http://forums.neufreistadt.info/viewtop ... 4:13cp03gw]here[/url:13cp03gw] and [url=http://forums.neufreistadt.info/viewtop ... 8:13cp03gw]here[/url:13cp03gw].

The Planning Commission recommended that NFS be kept at its current height (largely for the reasons Claude outlines) and that we should keep CN and NFS in their current orientation (i.e. CN north of NFS with one sim in between them). The rest of the plan is fairly flexible but there are some features, such as roads and water, which need to borne in mind in any proposal for a third sim.

[Sleazy_Writer]

You know, I never got it why no one talks about *switching* NFS & CN.

The NFS valley would be so much easier to connect to the high side of CN, and I would gladly sacrifice CN's northern urban expansion 'side' for that.

[Nikki]

To me that is a very interesting idea! It would also make for a more natural flow for the valley that runs (north-south) to the west of Neufreistadt, over which the bridge goes.

Also, thank you Mr. Murakami for the information! I will read through it.

[Dnate Mars]

[quote="TOPGenosse":1d2uugp1]You know, I never got it why no one talks about *switching* NFS & CN.

The NFS valley would be so much easier to connect to the high side of CN, and I would gladly sacrifice CN's northern urban expansion 'side' for that.[/quote:1d2uugp1]

Good point! I think we didn't want to move NFS and we couldn't put CN 2 spots below where we were. But I cannot recall anyone bringing up the idea of just switching them. Did the regional planning group think of this idea? Is it possible? The rest of the plan just needs to be mirrored then.

[Nikki]

This might be helpful.

If you go to http://support.secondlife.com
log in, and putting in a search for "Estate and Private Region Moving and Renaming"
the SL website says:

Can I move my Private Region?

Yes. We won't be able to move your Private Regionto a specific location; however, we do offer Private Region moves in order to attach your Private Region to another Private Region you own, or someone else's Private Region.

To move your Private Region in order to attach it to another, both you and the other Private Region owner must submit a support ticket confirming that you wish for your Estates to be attached, and which sides (i.e. "I want my Private Region attached to the west side of Torley's Island."). Note that your Private Region cannot be rotated, so what is currently north will always be north.

There is a $150 charge to move a Private Region. This fee is charged per Private Region, for any movement.

[Patroklus Murakami]

I hate to rain on anyone's parade but....

the Estate Plan developed by the Regional Planning Commission did not envisage switching the locations of NFS and CN. I'd be very unhappy about unravelling a decision that the Commission took, and the RA ratified, after several hours of discussion. I think we should take the current spatial relationship between the two sims, and the wider plan, as a given as we develop proposals for new sims. Otherwise, what was the point of developing an Estate Plan?

[Dnate Mars]

[quote="Patroklus Murakami":1pax7gdj]I hate to rain on anyone's parade but....

the Estate Plan developed by the Regional Planning Commission did not envisage switching the locations of NFS and CN. I'd be very unhappy about unravelling a decision that the Commission took, and the RA ratified, after several hours of discussion. I think we should take the current spatial relationship between the two sims, and the wider plan, as a given as we develop proposals for new sims. Otherwise, what was the point of developing an Estate Plan?[/quote:1pax7gdj]

Just because we have a plan does not mean if we as a group decide that maybe the best plan was not the one approved, then we should change it. Just because we came to a decision does not mean that we can re-evaluate it as time goes on. Could you imagine what would happen if everything we ever decided on was set in stone?

The plan is what should be followed, but I am not going to tell people not to think outside the plan. If it is much better to do it another way, and you can have very valid arguments for a revised plan, then go for it. We know that moving the 2 sims will cost us an additional $300, and it needs to be justified.

[Patroklus Murakami]

[quote="Dnate Mars":2m7j26qz]Just because we have a plan does not mean if we as a group decide that maybe the best plan was not the one approved, then we should change it. Just because we came to a decision does not mean that we can re-evaluate it as time goes on. Could you imagine what would happen if everything we ever decided on was set in stone?[/quote:2m7j26qz]Of course not. But that doesn't answer my question: what was the point of holding a Regional Planning Commission, and coming to a set of decisions about an Estate Plan, if those decisions can just be overturned? I'd like to think that the work that I, and the others involved in the Regional Planning Commission, would be respected. If we just flip-flop and never stick by any of our decisions then the worst accusations levelled at the CDS - that we waste peoples' time then reverse our decisions on a whim - will have been proved true.

My purpose in posting on the subject was to point people to the deliberations of the RPC in case they weren't aware of the work that had already been done. No point in reinventing the wheel, eh?

[Nikki]

Although I have not yet finished reading the previous planning threads, I would still like to address this question in general.

The former meetings were important because the community acted together to plan for future growth. They brought in much information and created a plan that can be an overall guide. That was good to do, and I understand why after having put in all that work it could seem rash for a new discussion to seem to ignore those plans.

However, I also believe they should not be the end of the planning conversation.

For one thing, the planning that was done is good to have as an overall guide, but it seems like changes could always be made as we go along. This planning is only theoretical (in that it has not been implemented yet), and ideas, people or situations might come along that would create a need for changes in planning. Sometimes these changes might be small, sometimes they might be large.

For another thing, I think it would be good to allow new people to also have input. I wish very much I had been in Neufreistadt at the time to have participated in those meetings, but I was not. Now I am here, at a time when nothing has yet actually been created beyond the first NFS and CN sims. Something I personally would like to do is try to influence changes from here to go in a direction I would like. Not to say “I am right” or that I have a better view than anyone else, but only that I would like to express what my perspective is and share my ideas - - and, naturally, to also have them be considered.

It could be asked what we are even doing in Second Life, and why we are trying to have a democratic government within it. To me this means somehow we as "land owners" want to work together to create our own environment. In doing so we can put our knowledge and ideas together to create a well-crafted community that is better than anything we could create as individuals. Inclusion is critical, however, or else this becomes only some deciding for everyone, which would be limited and not very interesting for those left out. Indeed there are a lot of governments that function in just such a way in RL, but they are not honestly called democratic. Every democracy in RL I know of allows its citizens to stand up and have their point of view heard in almost every meeting of any governmental body. How much effect citizens have in making comments in that way is debatable, but partly this has to do with the fact that in RL often there are already legally binding zoning laws in place which can be changed only with great difficulty. In SL we can create whatever community we want.

There has been a lot of talk in the forum about why the citizens of the CDS are not participating more in their community. It seems to me one answer is, this thread is just that kind of participation. Perhaps all of the conversation on this topic demonstrates we care about what we are creating. So far no one here has insisted on having their own way and how things must be; we have all just been sharing our thoughts, ideas and knowledge. My hope is this conversation could have an effect on the plans that have been made, so we are all working together to make our simulated home a place we enjoy and of which we are proud.

[Dnate Mars]

[quote="Patroklus Murakami":28bsowhs][quote="Dnate Mars":28bsowhs]Just because we have a plan does not mean if we as a group decide that maybe the best plan was not the one approved, then we should change it. Just because we came to a decision does not mean that we can re-evaluate it as time goes on. Could you imagine what would happen if everything we ever decided on was set in stone?[/quote:28bsowhs]Of course not. But that doesn't answer my question: what was the point of holding a Regional Planning Commission, and coming to a set of decisions about an Estate Plan, if those decisions can just be overturned? I'd like to think that the work that I, and the others involved in the Regional Planning Commission, would be respected. If we just flip-flop and never stick by any of our decisions then the worst accusations levelled at the CDS - that we waste peoples' time then reverse our decisions on a whim - will have been proved true.

My purpose in posting on the subject was to point people to the deliberations of the RPC in case they weren't aware of the work that had already been done. No point in reinventing the wheel, eh? [/quote:28bsowhs]

I understand that a lot of hard work went into the plan, but it was just a plan. Plans change all the time due to a number of factors. It may be found that now that we are going deeper into the actual logistics of planning this sim between NFS and CN, the steepness is just too great. We may find a plan that will work, we may need to change a few things. Dismissing ideas just because they aren't part of a plan is never a good idea. The plan also shows that we are wanting to expand CN and NFS instead of creating a bunch of new themes. It also shows that there is more of a want to expand one theme more then the other. It also show that we want to expand much more in the near future. There is a lot in what the plan tells us, there is also a lot of details that aren't there.