Proposed amendment to NL 5-9

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Claude Desmoulins
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Proposed amendment to NL 5-9

Post by Claude Desmoulins »

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Replace the second sentence of section 1 ("All members must be citizens before joining the group. ") with the following.

New groups through which citizenship is conferred must be founded by existing citizens. New citizens may join citizenship groups which have been in existence for 60 days.

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Now for the long winded explanation:

I believe the original intent of the existing citizen provision was an attempt to deal with the vulnerability of our system to coordinated mass immigration. It was recognized that, without that provision, a person with deep pockets and a couple of dozen loyal friends (or alts) could turn the CDS on its ear. The implementation of the 28 day residency requirement for voting was an attempt to address similar concerns.

Way way back when, you had to have two references from current citizens before you could become one (sort of like Rotary). Of course we don't do that any more.

As we continue to grow and if we get citizens to vote in sufficient numbers, such a calculated takeover becomes more difficult, but until we get to a voting populace of a couple of hundred, what safeguards need to remain in place. I proposed the above change (allowing existing groups to bring in new people or existing citizens to make new groups) as a first attempt at a middle way between the restrictiveness of the existing law and a free for all that might invite electoral manipulation.

Let the debate begin.

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Patroklus Murakami
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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

The intent of the original legislation was to allow couples to own land in partnership with each other and for community groups (charitable, religious, voluntary, cultural etc.) to own land as a group to realise their aims. This is all clear if you read the transcripts of the CSDF meetings where we developed the proposal and the debate in the RA.

The safeguard that you need to be a citizens first, before holding land as part of a couple or group, was to prevent mass immigration of people intent on taking over the CDS government. This is a permanent, potential vulnerability of our democracy and, as we all know, the price of liberty is eternal vigilance.

I'm worried by this proposal. It seems to me that, if I owned say 12 800 m2 of land in one or both sims in one or more land owning groups I could then invite up to 100 of my bestest friends, loyal supporters (and alts if I can get away with it) and have a pretty good chance of swinging the next election.

How is this 'a middle way' and not a 'free for all'?

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Post by Sleazy_Writer »

I have to agree with Patroklus that Claudes proposal doesn't solve the '100 friends and alts' problem.

[quote="Claude Desmoulins":5vmdy8v0]New citizens may join citizenship groups which have been in existence for 60 days.[/quote:5vmdy8v0]I read that as: [i:5vmdy8v0]'People wanting to become citizens can join citizenship groups which have been in existence for 60 days, and subsequently become a citizen.'[/i:5vmdy8v0]
If that's what Claude means, it doesn't solve the '100 friends and alts' problem. Let's keep on thinking hard about this. (I'm doing so too)

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Patroklus Murakami
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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

One way we could solve the '100 friends and alts' problem would be if we required each citizen to pay their share of the land use fees each month. So, for example, if a couple want to own land together they each have to pay their portion of the monthly fee. Similarly, each citizen who owns land as part of a group would have to chip in their portion each month directly. That would make it very clear who is (and is not) a citizen and who is (or is not) committed to the CDS in the sense that each citizen would have to make the effort to log in and pay their portion of the rent each month.

This would make it more difficult for a sugar daddy with deep pockets to pay the monthly fees 'on behalf of the group' without any of the supposed citizens who are members of that group actually making a contribution. It would involve some additional work on behalf of the couples and groups owning land currently; they would have to decide how to divide up the monthly rent between them and encourage members to pay up on time. It may involve some additional work for Sudane/Rudeen in tracking payments (though I understand that this will become more automated through a central 'rental deposit box' in each sim soon). I'd be grateful for Sudane's views, as Estate Ower, on the practicality of this proposal.

It would, of course, be possible to subvert this but it would add an additional hurdle to overcome for anyone who should want to buy votes to swing an election.

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Post by Claude Desmoulins »

On the one hand we have Sudane concerned about a high barrier to entry. On the other hand TOP and Pat worry that anything less than a strict application of NL 5-9 as it now stands leaves us too open to electoral manipulation. Someone is bound to end up unhappy :)

Ranma Tardis

Post by Ranma Tardis »

[quote="Claude Desmoulins":2dccrbn9]On the one hand we have Sudane concerned about a high barrier to entry. On the other hand TOP and Pat worry that anything less than a strict application of NL 5-9 as it now stands leaves us too open to electoral manipulation. Someone is bound to end up unhappy :)[/quote:2dccrbn9]

I think this bill needs to be revoked. It is a way for someone to take control of not just the sims but the money. With the ease of making alts, someone could just make their own voting block. Own enough land and you will own enough votes. As we say in the Army "too easy".

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Post by Sleazy_Writer »

[b:tqfa2do9]Option 1:[/b:tqfa2do9] (which I prefer)
=Patroklus' proposal. To which I would like to add a 1 time 'citizenship application' for people who become citizens this way (joining a land owning group), it would involve:
* The EO asking "Do you agree to the CDS Constitution, laws, judicial decisions, Terms of Service and Covenants?"
Some of you may think that this is TOP and his paranoia again, but this requirement is actually quite normal and simple:

- In RL it is much like this: I don't automatically get three new passports if I start to trade in Germany, Belgium and Luxembourg, if I want to be a citizen I'll have to apply.
- The question can be answered by a simple yes or no.
- This is only 1 time, as said.
- The documents are important.
- 'Group joiners' are more prone to overlook these documents than normal land buyers.
- For the smallest piece of software people need to agree to a ToS, why not this application for a project that is more dear to us than the latest media player?

[b:tqfa2do9]Option 2:[/b:tqfa2do9]
Alternatively, I wouldn't mind taking NL 5-9 and 'widening' it a bit with an amendment:

[i:tqfa2do9]1. Plots of land in Neufreistadt may be owned by couples or groups of citizens. All members must be citizens before joining the group.[/i:tqfa2do9]

Replace that last sentence by: [i:tqfa2do9]New land owning groups may consist of four or less members, all additional and other members must be citizens before joining the group.[/i:tqfa2do9]
This allows:
- 1 person groups such as in the old times
- 2 person groups such as mr. Utarid & ms. Springvale and virtually all human relationships
- 3 and 4 person groups covering a lot of business and organisational partnerships

Additionally: the requirement of citizenship application per person again, because:
Although it seems unnecessary for the person doing the transaction with Rudeen,
I expect person 3 and 4 to be absent in practice and they need to know what they're signing up for.
(My amendment needs some wordsmithing because pre-existing non land owning groups could be (re-)used for land owning.)

[b:tqfa2do9]Older and recent citizens and technical non-compliance:[/b:tqfa2do9]
I would wholeheartedly support a bill that unequivocally confirms the citizenship of citizens with this sort of non-compliance. (A glance at an updated citizen roll before the RA approves this would be good.)

[b:tqfa2do9]Reply to Claude[/b:tqfa2do9]
[i:tqfa2do9]"On the other hand TOP and Pat worry that anything less than a strict application of NL 5-9 as it now stands"[/i:tqfa2do9]
Au contraire, Claude :-) What Patroklus proposes is a big expansion of the ways to become a citizen. He allows people to become citizens by simply joining a land owning group (and paying their share).

All in all, here are some proposals. I just won't accept citizenship being hollowed out and cheapened to the point of pressing a "Join for 0L$!" button. (Also, I had expected something more pro active from representatives Crabgrass, Manen and Soothsayer.)

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Desmond Shang
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Post by Desmond Shang »

Fascinating.

I've long pondered this question of citizenship myself. There are some interesting ironies for both of us. :)

First off, the CDS seems to be - astonishingly - more of an aristocratic society than even Caledon! Only landed gentry appear to have a voice (through voting) and I'm presuming that only landed gentry may hold office.

It's rather remarkable that there is some question of who is a landed citizen and who is not, also, though I can rather see how the situation came about.

Furthermore - by linking land to votes there seems to be a powerful negative feedback. Anyone who develops sims quickly realises that 'longtimers' eventually buy up a sim and stay there; typically these are the wealthy who also often get busy elsewhere leaving their Second Life rather... secondary, except perhaps to pop in to attend a meeting, pay rent, vote, leave.

The new, active, participatory folk can't get land easily, and thus you end up with deathly quiet sims. Absolute control of the country seeps into the hands of quiet, wealthy landed aristocracy; the grip becoming tighter as time goes on. At least in first life, they die off and leave heirs!

It's a no-brainer what sort of slant the CDS will have over longer periods of time - it will favour close-knit groups of voting, wealthy residents and their needs, over say, national needs.

The mechanism isn't terribly relevant. It may be representative democracy, it may be Because-I-said-so-ocracy, but the demographic trend is clear unless you actively fight to quash it.

Is a wealthy, quiet, residential nation a bad thing? That depends upon what the soul of your nation seeks to be.

Caledon has this issue too, but does not pretend to be so democratic; also, our expansion has tempered this a bit. Our older sims tend to revitalise when new sims open, thus the wealthy move to larger estates in the new, and small land parcels open up in the old, bringing in fresh new participatory residents.

* * * * *

Ironically on my side of the fence: Anyone can know *exactly* who holds citizenship rights and who doesn't at any moment - simply look at the main group. But what does citizenship *mean*?

- Should there be a grid emergency, Caledon may limit access to citizens only for a period of some hours (ostensibly to defend from grid attacks). Most notably, all people in the group can be reached by group IM; i.e. - "Alert, grid attack in progress, do NOT rez any suspicious objects!" &c &c. This has yet to occur, though we have been close to it a few times.

- Discussion of national issues is common on the group channel. While there is neither voting (nor Robert's Rules!) it usually doesn't take a political analyst to know which way public sentiment is going. Far from perfect, but not unhelpful.

- Land still counts. Caledon's tier is approximately 2500 USD per month at the moment, so you better believe that if either the top 10 landed folk (controlling over 1/3 of Caledon!) or say, the smallest 100 landed (controlling a substantial chunk of the rest!) have an issue, it will be addressed as promptly as possible in either case. Even people with no land have some voice - without your regular visitors you are greatly lessened as a nation.

It's almost a House of Lords / House of Commons situation - if proposed changes don't "pass" the approval of both general groups they generally don't happen. Rarely are formal votes needed when people tell you what they think freely and often. :) Though I have seen a rare few sticky issues wherein a very basic form of representative democracy would simplify things.

The new 'voice' feature may be one of those tricky issues worthy of democratic resolution - strong feelings on both sides of the issue, though the anti-voice side is the more *cough* "vocal" about it and the pro-voice side seems to be a lot more secretive about it, telling me quietly. It's a great challenge but one that may be moot depending upon the fees involved.

So far, alts aren't an issue - it simply doesn't matter if someone is two avatars at once. If they are, they are merely stuck dealing with the advantages/disadvantages of being both.

* * * * *

So... back to the tough issue facing the CDS.

What constitutes stake, and therefore citizenship, in the CDS system? Land, certainly... but what of say, a creditor that has loaned the CDS a significant amount of $L? Should they not have a say, if not a substantial say? What of someone who makes the community desirable?

Here is a daring response to the '100 friends or alts' problem. If those 100 friends are truly participatory and paying, why would they [i:mv84m33q]not [/i:mv84m33q]deserve democratic control? Sure, protect yourself from attack, I agree - but what if it's not an attack, but honest participation?

As for 100 alts - how about this: Ensure that the cost of 100 alts buying up land and paying tier for X months before gaining full citizenship, far exceeds the benefit they would gain by taking over and selling off the sims.

The question is really this: Are the current members of the CDS willing to cede control to the people who will inhabit your next 5 sims? For they will outnumber you greatly, be they friends first, alts, or just honest-to-goodness humans.

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Post by Sleazy_Writer »

This thread is about law NL 5-9 and supposedly necessary amendments.

I would like to focus the attention again on my 2 proposals above, because I put a lot of effort in it.

Replies please, guys.

[size=84:1hdbl0t7]
- - - -
Desmond, thanks for this interesting analysis :-)

>> If those 100 friends are truly participatory and paying, why would they not deserve democratic control?
They might be truly participatory for 1 weekend, this doesn't mean they should get eternal citizenship. (Yes eternal, that's how it currently *can* be, if someone else pays the group fees) Patroklus' proposal makes the CDS very welcoming yet prevents bad scenarios like this one.

>> As for 100 alts - how about this
My #1 worry is swinging elections, with only 44 of 68 citizens voting last elections. This shows it takes as little as 10 alts or 'best friends' to really influence the outcome.

>> Are the current members of the CDS willing to cede control to the people who will inhabit your next 5 sims?
- To grumpy humans, sure.
- To 'citizens on paper' who exploit, or lend themselves to exploit a hollowed out citizenship definition, no.[/size:1hdbl0t7]

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Post by Sudane Erato »

[quote="Desmond Shang":1brfr4n5]
Furthermore - by linking land to votes there seems to be a powerful negative feedback. Anyone who develops sims quickly realises that 'longtimers' eventually buy up a sim and stay there; typically these are the wealthy who also often get busy elsewhere leaving their Second Life rather... secondary, except perhaps to pop in to attend a meeting, pay rent, vote, leave.

The new, active, participatory folk can't get land easily, and thus you end up with deathly quiet sims. Absolute control of the country seeps into the hands of quiet, wealthy landed aristocracy; the grip becoming tighter as time goes on. At least in first life, they die off and leave heirs!

It's a no-brainer what sort of slant the CDS will have over longer periods of time - it will favour close-knit groups of voting, wealthy residents and their needs, over say, national needs. [/quote:1brfr4n5]
This is not relevant to the CDS sims. There are strict limits imposed on how much land one citizen can control. At this moment, there are approximately 75 land-owning citizens in the two sims, a density I daresay *far* higher than in any other SL sim. Three of the five members of the RA hold parcels which are of the smallest size permissible.

To suggest that there exists a class of "landed gentry" in the C.D.S. sims is to simply not comprehend reality. The CDS is a community of ideas and an experiment in social structure. The individual motivation to advance one's own interests as vested in one's own land, which underlies the very concept of the landed gentry, is entirely lacking in the CDS. I frankly wish it were not so, since an issue we have struggled with since inception has been the promotion of enterprise in the sims. Some amount of motivation to advance one's own interest through economic enterprise would be a healthy component to our community. So far, efforts in this direction have not succeeded.

Sudane.....

Ranma Tardis

Post by Ranma Tardis »

[quote="Sudane Erato":14jrg8wi] This is not relevant to the CDS sims. There are strict limits imposed on how much land one citizen can control. At this moment, there are approximately 75 land-owning citizens in the two sims, a density I daresay *far* higher than in any other SL sim. Three of the five members of the RA hold parcels which are of the smallest size permissible.

To suggest that there exists a class of "landed gentry" in the C.D.S. sims is to simply not comprehend reality. The CDS is a community of ideas and an experiment in social structure. The individual motivation to advance one's own interests as vested in one's own land, which underlies the very concept of the landed gentry, is entirely lacking in the CDS. I frankly wish it were not so, since an issue we have struggled with since inception has been the promotion of enterprise in the sims. Some amount of motivation to advance one's own interest through economic enterprise would be a healthy component to our community. So far, efforts in this direction have not succeeded.
Sudane.....[/quote:14jrg8wi]

I am not in Second Life to make money. My time is worth so much more than I could ever make in SL. I figured it out once could make more at Wall mart! If I needed more money would work as an accounting consultant to some real life firm.
I am in it for the social experience and the thought of running a strip mall for resellers of freebies makes me yawn.
I have seen that the Neualtenburg phase III experiment is a failure and have decided to leave. Being called up for active duty and Rudy leaving delayed my departure. My basic disagreement is that the government should look after the interests of it citizens and not itself first. I saw the beginnings of something good in Neualtenburg. As time went on I saw the government doing its best to destroy what the founders established and replace it with their own self serving vision. I also saw long standing residents leave. Now it is my turn to leave. Most of the new citizens are "renters" and many do not bother to vote never mind participate in government. Not even sure myself what that means. There is no certain way a citizen can participate in the CDS government without being in the RA, Science Council or Guild. I of course was rejected by all three and my arguments and my proposals fell on deaf ears. In the end being a part of Neualtenburg phase III caused me nothing but grief. I refuse to give my silent obedient consent to their plans.
I am trying to get rid of my last lot and have had no takers. It is still my hope that Desmond Shang will take over ownership of the lot. I plan on rebuilding the Center for Democratic Peace and working on that in my spare time. It is my wish that this be done in Caledon.

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Post by Sleazy_Writer »

Ranma,

I'm sorry that your participation has been sabotaged by the Judiciary issue .. (that's how I look at it anyway) Afaik, it was endlessly at the top of the agenda, and of course that's lethal to citizens with some good input.

Heheh, how great would it be if 'big Desmond' would buy that tiny 128 sqm. parcel :-)

Also, this thread is still about the Group Land Ownership Act, and I'm still looking forward to hear what everyone (incl. Sudane) thinks about proposals such as Patroklus's and mine.

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Post by Sudane Erato »

[quote="TOPGenosse":1f4vrkt4] Also, this thread is still about the Group Land Ownership Act, and I'm still looking forward to hear what everyone (incl. Sudane) thinks about proposals such as Patroklus's and mine.[/quote:1f4vrkt4]Sudane is busily preparing her own proposal, which is related to the one by Patroklus. But.... i'm very sorry about this.... RL issues are making me essentially unable to work on this or comment in any detail until Wed Apr 18.

Sudane.....

Ranma Tardis

Post by Ranma Tardis »

[quote="TOPGenosse":8jaah7c6]Ranma,

Heheh, how great would it be if 'big Desmond' would buy that tiny 128 sqm. parcel :-) [/quote:8jaah7c6]

Who said anything about selling the lot, I am trying to give it to him. Though I agree with his reasons for not taking it for the designated purpose.

[quote="TOPGenosse":8jaah7c6] Also, this thread is still about the Group Land Ownership Act, and I'm still looking forward to hear what everyone (incl. Sudane) thinks about proposals such as Patroklus's and mine.[/quote:8jaah7c6]

My being against this act is a reason for me to leave; I see this as a tool for those in government to retain their power by watering down the voter base. There was not really a lot of debate about it. The ease of changing one of the founding principles of the government disturbed me.

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Post by Claude Desmoulins »

Were you here before Satch and Digi left? They were a RL married couple who found themselves at the center of our first electoral controversy when an elections administrator suggested that they were alts because they voted from the same IP address. They shared a computer because they were together IRL. Until 5-9 there was no way for them to share a lot in CDS even though they were married IRL and partnered ISL.

If we must keep our citizenship so pure that a married/partnered couple or a small group of business partners can't hold a lot in common, then the pendulum has swung away from being a welcoming community.

I think TOP's suggestion to limit the number of avatars who can draw citizenship from any one group is quite sound, and am not opposed to Pat's suggestion to ask individuals to pay their share themselves, as long as it isn't too much of a burden on Sudane. The question arises, however, that if each member of a group must pay individually and some don't , do we then reclaim part of a parcel?

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