an issue i'd like to see discussed

[Rose Springvale]

As most of you know, several events were held at the Emporium Romani this weekend. Jeremy Utarid and I have held several art shows at our office in Colonia Nova. I also sponsored a concert in the amphitheater, and helped organize a ball in the Schloss in NFS.

And what was I doing before most of those events, when last minute things always crop up?

Trying to explain to people who wanted to attend just HOW to get to the event.

It came to a critical point for me this weekend. Because the lot sizes that were put togethet to make the Emporium are all too small to qualify for an "Events" listing, {so that a red arrow would point to the building if you are given a landmark,} I literally spendt several minutes of the concert waiting in the forum to show people where to go. The amphitheatre was the closest land mark i could list. So I went back and forth between the amphitheater and the forum to usher attendees. I only speak English. It wasn't pretty.

and why?

because we have set a central teleport landing point, presumably to protect merchants who don't otherwise draw traffic. Do others hold events or advertise? When our guests walk by empty shops, do you realize how it hurts those of us TRYING to convince people that this is a good place to be?

I've heard a lot of complaining about stores not being filled because the owners are out of prims....but there is prim land for sale that has not been purchased.

So WHY are we continuing to punish the people who put the money into their property and the time into events by not allowing us to have direct teleport to our buildings?

One musician, who made it a point to compliment the sim ...saying.. take a look around, it's gorgeous... also said: People don't want to go searching for venues.They leave.

I would have liked to have been at the party the whole time, too.

I'd like to see the factions each address this issue in this election, please.

[michelmanen]

Rose, I entirely agree with you. In fact, I have had exactly the same experience when I organised events at the CRAEDO Auditorium. I had to hire no less that 4 people on each occasion and place them at key points leading to the Auditorium in order to make sure that those who wished to attend had a reasonable chance to do so. After these experiences, as you may remember, we both hired a builder to build the current CN tp point (since the Chancellor, who had been mandated to do so by the RA, did not have the time to carry out this task - and still has not had any time until now to replace our "privately-funded" sign with a more "public" one).

[b:m7qsbnw8]CARE[/b:m7qsbnw8] members raised this issue with various CDS officials - to no avail. It seems that those currently in charge, insist on applying and enforcing entirely laudable real life urban planning principles in Second Life - where the entire dynamics of movement and transportation is vastly different from those to be found in our real cities and regions.

[b:m7qsbnw8]CARE [/b:m7qsbnw8]will continue to put forward its dynamic agenda encouraging and supporting [b:m7qsbnw8]C[/b:m7qsbnw8]ultural, [b:m7qsbnw8]A[/b:m7qsbnw8]rtistic, [b:m7qsbnw8]R[/b:m7qsbnw8]elaxation and [b:m7qsbnw8]E[/b:m7qsbnw8]ducational events in the CDS and, if elected, will ensure that direct access to venues organising such events will indeed be available.

[Gxeremio Dimsum]

What about providing either 1) a mass transit system with clearly labeled stops or 2) a board with links to each place that paid to be on the board (so that people would have one of those red arrows to follow)?

Having a central landing place does promote a greater sense of community and of land value, and I think we should keep them.

[Bromo Ivory]

[quote="Gxeremio Dimsum":1k27cce2]What about providing either 1) a mass transit system with clearly labeled stops or 2) a board with links to each place that paid to be on the board (so that people would have one of those red arrows to follow)?

Having a central landing place does promote a greater sense of community and of land value, and I think we should keep them.[/quote:1k27cce2]

I quite like a "mass transit system" as you said - seen it in a few SIM's and it seemed to work!

[Rose Springvale]

While I agree that a central teleport system SOUNDS good, i would like to have some hard facts attached to the rhetoric if that is possible. HOW does it improver sense of community and land value? I'm always lost in NFS. I am always spending my time walking or flying by empty buildings and houses in CN. Or... going ahead to a place and spending time sending tps to people who don't want to do it themselves. The people who spend most of the time in our sims, i'd venture to guess, is US. Why not extend invitations to our places of business or our homes directly? I"d love to see what you all have done, but i'm not one of those voyeuristic types who will come without an invitation unless it is clearly a commercial establishment. I don't think i'm alone in that.

Does anyone have anything other than their "sense" of what the central tp does to support these claims?

Mass transit is a great idea in rl cities, but in virtual ones, i see mass transit and think LAG. Another good way to have people LEAVE instead of stay and look around.

As for teleport directories... Michel and I had the one made in CN when we completed the Emporium Romani. We asked the Chancellor to handle it, but she was too busy. We paid to have it made, and offered to include anyone who wanted to be included on the directory. Only a couple of people responded and they are on the sign. As my law office is one of those, I can tell you that it doesn't help. First, people have to wait for eveyrthing to rez.
Then they have to know the name of the building where the event is taking place. In the case of our office, I can put signs up in the forum that say "Rigarto Gallery Opening at Utarid & Springvale" for example, and they have to remember to read that sign, then turn around and read the directory and choose the office from the directory. Not an onerous task for the person who is committed to attending the event. But for people simply looking for somethign to do for a few minutes... do you see my point? The central tp in this case acts as a deterrent, not a bridge.

I don't know a lot about how it works in NFS, other than for the ball. Theoretically, everyone knew where they were going as we didn't open it up to the public. It even had the benefit of a "red arrow" to follow. MY experience though... and remember that i've been trained to bill my time in six minute increments (1/1oth of an hour!) was that every time i needed to leave the sim for any reason, then return to set up auction items, clear sim models, do signs...whatever.. I had to go back to the platz, wait to rez, fly to the schloss. LOTS of wasted time.

Please, proponents of maintaining the central tp, give me concrete reasons? Or alternatives that dont' make the problem worse?

[Dnate Mars]

Because that is the way that it was designed to work. If you look at the layouts of the sims, there is a center point that is designed for everyone to TP too. Part of the beauty of the sims is the fact that they are meant to be looked at. It is a shame that our business district is mostly empty, and that SL is so slow that things take so long to rez. But these reason are not good enough for me to want direct teleporting. I am not sure how many of you remember a the grid before direct TPs where everyone had to go to a telehub before moving to where ever they wanted to end up at, but SL worked just fine back then. People had events, and people would show up, even when they were 6 or 7 sims away from the closes telehub.

Plus, while it may be nice for some of the business type lands, I like the fact the no one can TP right to my little plot. I will always have some warning when someone comes into the sim.

[Gxeremio Dimsum]

[quote="Rose Springvale":i2sh2a89]HOW does it improver sense of community and land value? [/quote:i2sh2a89]

Well, the effect on sense of community is impossible to measure, I guess, but I can say that most of my conversations in NFS (where I spend more time than CN) happen at or near the teleport location. It's the place where visitors pop in, leaving us the ability to have greeters if we wanted, and it's been the location of some of the city's events. When I travel elsewhere in teh city I often feel like I'm intruding on people's space, while the Platz is clearly a public space where it is much more comfortable to approach strangers and say hello.

Land value wise, when you have more people shuffling by your store you have more eyeballs on your products or services. The connection to land value is very concrete: land on the Platz is priced higher to buy and pays more in monthly fees. If direct tp was possible, I doubt most of the businesses on the Platz would see the value in paying more for land there.

I think the issues you bring up (rezzing and annoyance) are very legitimate, though.

[Bromo Ivory]

[quote="Gxeremio Dimsum":2kfm1h7p]
Land value wise, when you have more people shuffling by your store you have more eyeballs on your products or services. The connection to land value is very concrete: land on the Platz is priced higher to buy and pays more in monthly fees. If direct tp was possible, I doubt most of the businesses on the Platz would see the value in paying more for land there.

I think the issues you bring up (rezzing and annoyance) are very legitimate, though.[/quote:2kfm1h7p]
I am a fairly new person to SL (6 months) but I know when I am trying to find a particular store - usually if I can't figure out where it is - say in 30 seconds to a Minute after TPing - I will then pop out. If there is a red marker - I will immediately fly up and then land where it is. If I can't find it - I go to the next one on the list.

For parties - usually you have to escort someone to your spot - or TP then directyl yourself - which makes CDS less atrtractive than many other locations that allow more direct TPing.

This is a reality in SL since Linden Labs stopped the Telehub/fly/walk to destination system - making it possible for owners to keep the old ways, and I am not sure this is serving the community well.

As far as land values - a collection of shops with an anchor store or two will automatically be more valuable than one random store located in a random location - in NFS, I don't see any anchors in the Platz, and I don't see the Telehub offering sufficient drawing power to be an anchor. In CN the Emporium has the potential of being such a place, but would need to be supported better.

I am sure if we all put our heads together we could come up with a great solution to this problem!

[Rose Springvale]

[quote="Gxeremio Dimsum":33j35nvx][quote="Rose Springvale":33j35nvx]HOW does it improver sense of community and land value? [/quote:33j35nvx]

Land value wise, when you have more people shuffling by your store you have more eyeballs on your products or services. The connection to land value is very concrete: land on the Platz is priced higher to buy and pays more in monthly fees. If direct tp was possible, I doubt most of the businesses on the Platz would see the value in paying more for land there.

I think the issues you bring up (rezzing and annoyance) are very legitimate, though.[/quote:33j35nvx]

::giggling a little::... maybe pays more relative monthly fees... but i don't think anyone pays more than Rose... though that is truly not the issue in my opinion. CDS sims are already among the most reasonably priced and tiered in the grid.

The issue for me is this... If i hold an event, is it MY responsibility, as a private citizen, to increase traffic to your shop? Or is that a community issue? Or do you as a shop owner on the platz, have a responsibility to make your property attractive enough to draw people in? As a "non platz-forum" owner, I understand that to get people to my places, I have to do something to make them want to come there. When I do, shouldn't I get the benefit of that effort?

Let me be clear: 1) I am not talking about changing the landing point for the sim in general. Casual visitors SHOULD land in the central locations. Community events held in the sim as a whole likewise. Probably also events held in public places that are able to be marked with a landmark red arrow.

2) PRIVATE property... privately funded, privately invited, privately conducted... should be able to offer a direct tp to anyone they choose.

IF at any point, any of the events I've held had spurred people in the forum to spiff up their property, put out merchandise, whatever, the sense of community argument has merit. What really happens though is that we are left to explain why we are having such a cool event in a ghost town.

I'm not trying to offend anyone. There have been so few events since I joined CDS in January, I hate to generalize. BUT...I spent several minutes last night trying to FIND the CDSF meeting. Same with the Guild meetings...I end up waiting for someone else to come along to follow. (I'm directionally challenged in RL too... and I'm not alone!)

All I'm saying is that there is enough stress involved in planning, organizing and holding events that we should make it easier when we can, and this is one way we can.

I'm pretty sure I understand the positions of CDSF and CARE on this topic... Simplicity?

[Rose Springvale]

[quote="Dnate Mars":apvhs24a]Because that is the way that it was designed to work.
[/quote:apvhs24a]
Design is wonderful; the sims are beautiful. I just don't think the design anticipated actually "living" in the sims.

[quote="Dnate Mars":apvhs24a]
Plus, while it may be nice for some of the business type lands, I like the fact the no one can TP right to my little plot. I will always have some warning when someone comes into the sim.[/quote:apvhs24a]

so .. don't give anyone the landmark? Am I missing something?

[Dnate Mars]

[quote="Rose Springvale":3kor3ki6][quote="Dnate Mars":3kor3ki6]Because that is the way that it was designed to work.
[/quote:3kor3ki6]
Design is wonderful; the sims are beautiful. I just don't think the design anticipated actually "living" in the sims.

[quote="Dnate Mars":3kor3ki6]
Plus, while it may be nice for some of the business type lands, I like the fact the no one can TP right to my little plot. I will always have some warning when someone comes into the sim.[/quote:3kor3ki6]

so .. don't give anyone the landmark? Am I missing something?[/quote:3kor3ki6]

Yes you are. If I am just sitting on my plot and someone see that there is a dot there, with direct TP they can TP right next to me. I don't like that, at least with the hub, they would have to TP to the hub and then fly across the sim to see me.

[Patroklus Murakami]

Rose

As I said to you inworld, I don't think this is an election issue so it's a shame to see it being promoted as one. This is not a 'political' issue but a practical one.

I think we're capable, outside of the febrile atmosphere of an election contest, at coming to a solution that will work for most if not all of us. Whatever we come up with will have to include consultation with all of the people with an interest, including people like me who paid more, and continue to pay more, for plots next to the Marketplatz and Forum.

If we're going to reverse the decision we came to when we laid out and built Neufreistadt and Colonia Nova then it should be done in a considered way, with everyone having the opportunity to express an opinion; not as the result of a soundbite decision in the heat of an election campaign.

Incidentally, on Michel's claim that "CARE members raised this issue with various CDS officials - to no avail." Oh really? Who with? I've never been approached on this subject. It had never even been raised to my knowledge until the election came along .

One wonders why, when it is such an issue of concern, that CARE/Michel didn't 'care' to raise it when they had a seat on the RA all of last term....

[Beathan]

Rose --

The Simplicity Party does not take issues, by way of platform positions, at this level of detail. Under our current theory, platforms define the appropriate beliefs and political actions of the members of a party. Maverick disagreement with platform is not allowed by the theory -- and is disruptive to the practice of politics in the CDS. This might be a problem (I think it is) -- but until we have some mechanism that allows individual party members to hold and act on views at cross-purposes to their party platform, the Simplicity Party platform will be simplicity itself.

In this case, less is more. By not taking a position, the Simplicity Party allows its members to work out their own ideas and positions about these things.

Personally, I am ambivalent about tp points outside the forum and marktplatz. We are testing a city center theory in our builds -- by trying to create a communal and commercial focus. This does not seem to be working -- and it might be time to rethink it.

However, I agree with Dnate. I like the privacy I am given by not having people drop in on my domus. I bought the domus I did in large part because of the privacy (at the edge of the sim) as well as the convenience (near the amphitheatre and a quick, straigh walk or flight to the forum. I don't want to sacrifice this privacy.

I also don't find the tp points in the forum either aesthetically attractive or thematically appropriate. In my humble opinion, that project was badly botched. However, I expect that other SP members will feel differently.

Beathan

[michelmanen]

Hmmm, Pat, you couldn't help yourself to turn this into an attack on me personally yet again.. in addition to still using that endearing CARE/Michel appelation which denotes your continuing insinuations as to the lack of authenticity and legitimacy of a party which, after all, has twice as many members as CSDF... I guess those [i:9aaefs20]Pater Nosters[/i:9aaefs20] and [i:9aaefs20]Ave Marias[/i:9aaefs20] didn't help much.... grins

Well, to be blunt, Pat, I talked early in the year to people whose decision actually counts around here, and what I heard convinced me it would be totally pointless to raise this point in an RA whose majority members didn't, frankly, spend much more time in the CDS than the hour they used for the weekly RA meeting and possibly another hour for some commission they possibly chaired - so that they had no possible idea of the problems this actually caused to those of us who actually made a sustained effort to revitalise our sims and bring commercial, artistic, recreational and educational events to our community -or, indeed any interest at all to actually truly think about it and take any kind of constructive action...

[michelmanen]

[quote:1jk0gw9r]The Simplicity Party does not take issues, by way of platform positions, at this level of detail. Under our current theory, platforms define the appropriate beliefs and political actions of the members of a party. Maverick disagreement with platform is not allowed by the theory -- and is disruptive to the practice of politics in the CDS. [/quote:1jk0gw9r]

LOL Beathan! Get a life!