Election Debate ignored by most CDS citizens

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michelmanen
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Election Debate ignored by most CDS citizens

Post by michelmanen »

For an analysis and commentary of the recent CDS pre-election debate, please click here: [b:21ek31o5][url:21ek31o5]http://www.care-cds.com/blog/?p=11[/url:21ek31o5][/b:21ek31o5].

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Post by Beathan »

Michel --

I think you are being unfair, both to the substance of the debate and (potentially) to the interest of the community. For a more fair (or at least more optimistic) take on the debate, see http://forums.neufreistadt.info/viewtopic.php?t=1170.

It is true that attendance at the debate was sparse when compared to the size of the amphitheatre. However, when we consider our community as a whole -- attendance was over 10% (not bad for a political debate). Further, I know of several avs who were not able to attend the debate, but who have read the transcript posted in this forum by Sudane. (see http://forums.neufreistadt.info/viewtopic.php?t=1175). I think it is unfair to say that community is ignoring the debate.

Further, I think that you are unfair to both the CSDF and the SP positions. I will let the CSDF speak for itself. However, with regard to the SP, you are repeating your usual mistake of misrepresenting the SP's commitment to minimal government as a lack of commitment to government or as a lack of vision. We have vision -- and the cardinal point of that vision is that we are all better off when we are left to do our own things and live our own lives without governement meddling -- even if that meddling is called "assistance" or "facilitation." This is true in SL as it is in FL.

I know that CARE does not share this vision. CARE is deeply committed to meddling. However, it does not follow that because the SP does not have an agenda setting out the ways in which we intend to meddle in the lives of the CDS citizens, the SP has no agenda. We have an agenda. That agenda sets out how we will try to keep the CDS government, whether run by us or by some other party, from meddling in the lives and property of CDS citizens. It is true that this agenda is radically unlike CARE's plan to totally engage with and control all areas of life in the CDS (through citizen commissions associated and controlled by CARE that would then somehow exercise control through the government -- I think that political scientists would call this model "rule by soviets"; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_(council)). However, this minimalist agenda is no less an agenda for being committed to individual freedom as opposed to interventionistic governmental action.

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Post by Justice Soothsayer »

Michel, though I have been otherwise occupied by other commitments, including a family trip which meant I could not attend the debate, I'm more than a little disappointed by your topic line. Many of us can't be in-world very much (and in my case, the RL times for RA meeting have been more than a little problematic), but we still care very much (or even CARE very much) about our governance.

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Post by Dnate Mars »

A CARE founder's blog post is of course unbiased and fair to all the other parties. There is no political agenda, of course!

But it was a pretty good turn out if the past is any indication. There are also people that really didn't care that much about the debate. There are people that just aren't that political in our sims. Next time it might to better to maybe take questions ahead of time of people that can't be there so they may still be a part of it even if they aren't there in person.

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Post by Bromo Ivory »

[quote="Dnate Mars":1i3d7tvu]A CARE founder's blog post is of course unbiased and fair to all the other parties. There is no political agenda, of course!

But it was a pretty good turn out if the past is any indication. There are also people that really didn't care that much about the debate. There are people that just aren't that political in our sims. Next time it might to better to maybe take questions ahead of time of people that can't be there so they may still be a part of it even if they aren't there in person.[/quote:1i3d7tvu]

I actually like that - esp. if kept secret by the moderator - would want the questions to be somewhat spontaneous!

(/me quickly ducks all the flames going back on forth - wondering to self why these guys aren't out canvassing and getting out the vote like I am !! )

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Post by Beathan »

As long as we are thinking about the format for other debates, I think once useful way to create engagement is to allow each person debating to ask one question of one other person debating. That tends to put issues in direct contrast. It also (although this has not been our problem) prevents a debate of canned or softball questions.

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Post by michelmanen »

Beathan,

If you cannot differentiate between a system of governance based on active citizens' paticipation in open and inclusive structures of governance derived from habermasian principles of participative democracy on the one hand, and the state-controlled Soviets of the former USSR on the other, there is very little I can do to help you.

Justice,

Facts are stubborn things.

Fact: more public officials or candidates for public office attended the debate ( 8 ) than interested citizens (6).

Fact: five of the attendees were either debating or moderating. That left an actual audience of 9 citizens.

Fact: less than 12 per cent of the CDS citizens' actually bothered to show up. Over 80 per cent (62 citizens) stayed away.

I am certain that some citizens were away on RL business; I highly doubt that ALL 62 were unavoidably detained ( in fact, some where in-world during the debate but chose not to attend).

This says a lot about the health of our democracy, our citizens' interest in and respect for our current parties and their performance in office, and their level of disappointment with the CDS government record.

As long as the same 15 or so individuals occupy multiple positions in the CDS government and entirely monolopolise the decision-making process despite a sustained and unbroken record of failure over the past two years to build a cohesive, dynamic, expanding community rather than generating empty sims, nothing will change in the CDS. For the very sign of folly is to repeat the same actions over and over again and expect the result to be different.

Dnate,

That is CARE's blog. One links to it directly from the CARE Website. It represents CARE's view of events. Its agenda is clear and obivious: representing CARE's take on CDS events and CARE's point of view on our community.

Beathan and Dnate,

Although helpful in a limited way, your suggestions miss the point. Our main goal should not be just to increase citizen participation solely during the pre-election debate, but to find ways to motivate them, give them a voice and involve them in an ongoing, open, inclusive, accountable and efficient system of governance throughout the six months of each Representative Assembly's mandate. That has been CARE's postion and agenda from the day it was founded and that is the point where it differentiates itself most from other parties who find such an approach to be nothing more than a collection of wasteful and time-consuming "talking shops" (as clearly states by the CSDF Candidate during the recent debate).

Michel

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Post by Dnate Mars »

Well, yes Michel, I know it was no secrete, but my distaste for smilies and since it was written, I guess the sarcasm was missed by some. I really was just trying to have a little fun and lighten things up. I love politics, but I hate the political season.

The main point of my post was based on the very narrow view of how to improve the next debate we have. I think we can all agree that we want more involvement , and not just CARE. I think that small steps that have meaning are a much better approach than have a broad "we want more involvement" type talk.

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Post by Beathan »

Michel --

As we established in the last election, I am not a big fan of Habermas. He is largely about communication -- but does it so badly. Sadly, German philosophers could learn a lot from dog trainers about how to speak German simply and to-the-point. I also acknowledge that you use Habermasian rhetoric in most of your discussions and posts (which is actually unfortunate, due to the fact that it is fairly poor rhetoric, which would have been improved if Habermas had understudied to a dog trainer).

That said, the problem is not my inability to "differentiate between a system of governance based on active citizens' paticipation in open and inclusive structures of governance derived from habermasian principles of participative democracy on the one hand, and the state-controlled Soviets of the former USSR on the other." It is yours. If you are trying for a Habermasian party, you have missed the mark by a wide margin. If you are trying for a soviet system (on the early Bolshevik model -- not the post-Stalinist one) disguised by lipservice to Habermasian principles, you are far closer -- but you have also underestimated the native intelligence of our community.

CARE has never been about broad participation in our community. CARE has, from the start, tried to funnel community action and thinking into and through CARE -- rather than engaging in an open and rational debate that builds links between the disparate elements of our community. I truly believe that Habermas would recoil at what you have wrought.

Beathan

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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

I think people will see this for the tissue of lies and distortions it is. CARE/Michel pulled exactly the same trick at the last election and scraped home with one seat (and only just). While I have a lot of time for the individual candidates have met in this election, I sincerely hope that the electorate rewards CARE/Michel's weak electoral tricks in the appropriate fashion.

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Post by michelmanen »

Awww... can we not just hug, make up and focus on issues instead of trowing mud at each other? I really like you both a lot..... let's go out to the Biergarten and party some time ;)

See you guys soon ;)

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Post by Jon Seattle »

Here is Michel's section on the CSDF:

[quote:3aazihfh]The debate showed clearly that this election is a contest between two diametrically opposed visions of CDS as a community and of its future: the “Back-to-Basics” approach of a CSDF intent to look in the past for recipes of success which do not address our current problems of empty shops, empty streets, lack of cummunity spirit and involvement, failing political institutions and consequent citizen disillusionment with the CDS generally and with our political process specifically; and CARE’s visionary and forward-looking project of revitalising our community and transforming the CDS into a Dynamic Community on the Edge of Tomorrow .[/quote:3aazihfh]

Before CARE blames the CSDF for the current state of things, remeber that the CSDF has had exactly the same number of seats in the RA as CARE has. The party in power has been the DPU, and their job has not been easy.

If you look at the CSDF program from the last election, the CSDF achieved everything it set out to do, except for one: the electoral issue where we have a detailed and well-worked-out proposal on the table.

I think Michel is right, we do have a choice of vision. Under CSDF's approach we build on people's skills, and give them opportunities within the CDS. Every sim we make, every project we undertake, we create a more and more capable group of skilled citizens. And citizens who are more capable will be better at selling goods and services in the SL outside the CDS.

As far as I can tell, in practice, CARE has a more consumerist focus. Ashcroft once said his vision was to make the CDS into a community of law professionals. While I gather this is no longer the goal of CARE, it occurred to me then that such a community would be economically very well off, but have just about all its architecture, objects, and entertainment provided by people from outside the community. Why not have the best?

And a few builders who receive small plots or "artist in residence" awards does not change this. If we want to make the CDS a better place, we need to invest in our citizens.

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Post by michelmanen »

[quote:2fp8lwv2]Before CARE blames the CSDF for the current state of things, remeber that the CSDF has had exactly the same number of seats in the RA as CARE has. The party in power has been the DPU, and their job has not been easy.

If you look at the CSDF program from the last election, the CSDF achieved everything it set out to do, except for one: the electoral issue where we have a detailed and well-worked-out proposal on the table.[/quote:2fp8lwv2]

Jon, the issue is not to put blame on one or another of the parties, but to find a way forward. The problem with all current RA members is that they think they can sit in the Rathaus, draft and pass laws on their own - and that's it, their job is done! They can check another little square on their election promises list and clamour they've accomplished their agenda.

But all this has little to do with reality - with what most citizens think, with what's happening out there. Over 80 per cent of citizens don't attend the main pre-election debate; over 80 per cent of our hops are empty; our streets are deserted most of the time; most of our own citizens barely drop by to check their "mail". The new Guild hasn't taught one course, or organised one lecture. The budget voted for entertainment events remains untouched; we still don't have a PIO. And the number of citizens we gain is barely higher than the number of those we lose regularly. I mean, is it so hard for you to see that your idea of applying RL ideas of the role of government in SL really does not work? We realy need to ask different questions and do things differently- and as long as you guys will keep sitcking your head in the sand and ignoring the evidence and throwing mud and stones and those who are hosnestly trying to bring about some positive changes, we will not grow and improve and become a fun, lively community. This is what this entire election boils down to.

[quote:2fp8lwv2]I think Michel is right, we do have a choice of vision. Under CSDF's approach we build on people's skills, and give them opportunities within the CDS. Every sim we make, every project we undertake, we create a more and more capable group of skilled citizens. And citizens who are more capable will be better at selling goods and services in the SL outside the CDS.[/quote:2fp8lwv2]

Well I entirely agree with your first sentence. Unfortunately this hasn't translated in the results promised in the second sentence. What goods and services are we actually selling outside CDS? Where are the stores, the goods, the products, the services of this "group of skilled citizens"? How are their integrated to, and of benefit to the CDS? Jon, don't you see this is just empty talk? I totally agree with what you say- but Jon, you haven't done this in two years now!! SL is expanding geometrically and we're growing at the rate of less then 10 citizens per election cycle! Our shops stay empty, our street deserted, ouver events- non-existent -and the many skills of most of our citizens ignore! THIS is the reality of CDS! Just spend some time in our sims and walk around - and if you're honest with yourself, you won't be able but to recognise that what I am saying is true....

[quote:2fp8lwv2]As far as I can tell, CARE has a more consumerist focus. Ashcroft once said his vision was to make the CDS into a community of law professionals. While I gather this is no longer the goal of CARE, it occurred to me then that such a community would be economically very well off, but have just about all its architecture, objects, and entertainment provided by people from outside the community. Why not have the best?[/quote:2fp8lwv2]

Oh come on Jon, be fair! Look at the facts:

1. All builders I and "my friends" have used are CDS citizens!
2. The 3 concerts I helped organise for the ER were set up by Calmtommy, a CDS citizen!
3. The art shows I helped with attracted new artists to become CDS citizens and develop new projects in the community;
4. The Emporium Romani I have contributed in developing has brought in new designers to our community - one of whom held a fashion show here!
5. Everything I have done (video, lectures, conferences, events, arts, concerts, ER) has been to ensure CDS gets some outside publicity and becomes better known! These are concrete actions and results, Jon, not just hot air about democracy and community heating up the Rathaus and evaporating in the cold ether as soon as some laws are adopted!

[quote:2fp8lwv2]And a few builders who receive small plots or "artist in residence" awards does not change this. If we want to make the CDS a better place, we need to invest in our citizens.[/quote:2fp8lwv2]

Ah, it's easy to criticize others for their initiatives, made with no government assistance out of their private funds. Where are the concrete results of the investments you speak of, Jon? It's been TWO YEARS now! Where's the beef???

CARE (and I) are constantly concerned (and succeeding in) attracting new business, new artists, new entertainters, new educators to CDS. If you'd ne around more and if you'd attend some of the "I and my friends" organise, you'd notice that, too. As for CARE, it is open to all non-CDS individuals who want to join - we even have an application form on our website for people who want to become members. Just a few moments ago we received this message from an SL resident:

"Application to Join CARE
Join: ON
Name: (confidential)
email: (confidential)

Comments:

I have been engaged in SL for some months developing some projects (still on them slowly but surely, but I lack the humanistic, cultural, historical, democratic and social development part, that could expand SL possibiliites beyond the dominant technocratic/narcisistic mainstream.
I am a Spanish lawyer in SL, working in International Trade and a passionate of history, politics and human development"

This is concretely what CARE (and I) are doing -this are the kinds of people we seek to attract and welcome in our community -while Pat and others like him try to put up more and more barriers to entry and come up with all sorts of theories why we should make sure we're not "submerged" by some kind of "foreigners' wave" that will take over our institutions and government and destroy our community!

(NB: Let us all not forget that our CDS river is the Rhine, not the Tiber...)

Last edited by michelmanen on Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Bromo Ivory »

I have remained silent in this (and other exchanges).

I do not plan on adding fuel to the fire - but I would like to express two things:

1. Dismay
2. Disappointment

I have been on the internet for 20 years (well what passed for the internet in the beginning - ARPANET - is counted in this tally) - and have cut my teeth in USENET and so on. And these are more "flame wars" than discussion.

Given the challenges faced by the SIM going forward - I am disappointed that most seem hell bent on flinging mud, and trying to score "points" from one another with insult, outrage and accusations.

In order to ensure an enthusiastic and participatory community I think this mud slinging - taking attempts at reconciliation or compliments as insults and so on - HAS TO STOP. (And I maintain that no party is entirely innocent)

I see that some posts are trying to stop it - and this is good - I encourage all parties to declare a "cease fire." I have, and believe the larger community has little interest in who said what, when, to whom, and which insults, backhanded compliments, genuine compliments taken as insult or whatever - there are no real score cards here. All is a waste and brings CDS no closer to where all parties feel it needs to go.

This CDS is not a Forum, nor is it a kiddie-UN - it is my HOME in SL.

It is my firm intent to try to be a unifying force going forward - everyone has worked too hard to ruin it all in a nasty little Drama-fest.

Last edited by Anonymous on Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Salzie Sachertorte »

RL obligations precluded my attendance at the debate. I did read the transcripts before casting my vote, as could any CDS citizen, so I don't think anyone should discount the debate regardless of how many avatars where actually present in real time.

There are a number of different ways to hold a debate; I believe this method was chosen to make it easy on our "volunteered" moderator. The whole election process could have been a bit neater had we had a PIO to handle the same in a timely manner. I stepped up and did my best but, as always, I have RL issues which preclude active involvement in SL.

Without jumping into the ridiculous debate above, I do want to say that for most folks SL is a past-time and RL trumps participation in SL events and activities. Time zone considerations are always an issue for us. Most of the CDS citizens who I know personally are either students or professionals in RL, thus are limited as to the time and effort they can contribute.

Many of our founders and early citizens who devoted large amounts of time to creating the CDS have either burned out and moved on or have turned their SL expertise into RL money making endeavors; that is, to RL development companies working in virtual reality or have become Lindens. Thus, those who can devote more time to SL activities have done so in a manner which benefits their RLs. Hence, less time for SL voluntarism.

It is easy to create a campaign platform based on various ways to improve the CDS. I've seem the same ideas proposed over and over in the past two years. I've seen a few campaign promises turn into RA resolutions, some of which were eventually passed. It is the implementation which causes the problems - no one will volunteer for a project they don't believe in, nor contribute funds for things they could care less about.

I think we need to pause and discuss what is CDS is and why it exists before moving on.

Not everyone has the same vision for the CDS - we have never developed a common vision statement - and before we jump into the programs proposed by the various factions, some needs to poll the citizens and see what they actually want. I see folks calling for more sims, more citizens, websites, more events, etc, etc. I, myself, wish for none of these things, but then, no one has asked my opinion.

But then, flinging mud is much more fun that working towards common ground.

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